How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[Sraman]

18 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I'm sorry.

 

Did you post anything plausible that will stop the Scottish economy tanking and its currency being devalued compared to the pound?

 

Import/export tax?

 

 

Still no answers to any questions Captain Black?

 

 

At this moment in time the Scottish economy and currency are tanking. Your point? We need change? yer damn tootin' we do.

 

 

You must be getting dizzy by now old chap. Remember, you're looking for the square shape.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

 

How much extra will goods from the  UK and Europe cost to import past Scottish border customs?

 

 

I woould imagine an Indy Scotland would have some relationship with the EU like a customs Union so would expect imports from EU would remain much the same.

 

How much will EU imports cost post brexit?

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Sraman said:

 

 

And we have learnt from Westminster, the correct political solution is: Stuff 'em! Keep taking the money anyway. Is all I'm saying.

 

It's UK politics, division is the name of the game. What's your point? We need change? Yer damn tootin' we do.

 

Uh huh.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Looks like I have hit a raw nerve here as not only are you ranting like a loon, but your so called examples are wrong in about six different ways.

 

 

The pound will rise once the turmoil caused by the remoaners blocking Brexit ends one way or another.

 

While we are talking currency, how little will a "Scottish pound" be worth compared to a UK pound post Indy?

 

How much extra will goods from the  UK and Europe cost to import past Scottish border customs?

 

 

I am still waiting for the SNP to publish a new economic plan.

The pound will drop like a stone post Indy. What commodity do you think is propping it up and why are the usual loonies like Brown and Darling saying we can't have our own currency after denying us the use of the pound? Make their stupid minds up! Slavering idiots, they know the pound will sink without Scotland. 

[jake]

The SNP taking a doing on newsnight on every turn.

And listening to the answers is like listening to Tory shite.

Embarrassing.

 

And to bang on about housing when the situation in the capital city of Scotland is a shit pit is laughable.

 

 

I'm scunnered.

[Sraman]

18 minutes ago, jake said:

The SNP taking a doing on newsnight on every turn.

And listening to the answers is like listening to Tory shite.

Embarrassing.

 

And to bang on about housing when the situation in the capital city of Scotland is a shit pit is laughable.

 

 

I'm scunnered.

 

Taking a doing?

 

I heard them ask about ambitious targets, set by the SNP themselves, that were not met within the Scottish NHS. A London program questioning the SNP's leader at Westminster about his parties record back home, in a completely different parliament to the one he works in, on the NHS. Hmmmm.

 

On the literacy question, would you like him to say, it's English, who gives a stuff  Now that would be a Tory like answer.

 

Laughable is correct. I'm not laughing with you though.

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

25 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

Taking a doing?

 

I heard them ask about ambitious targets, set by the SNP themselves, that were not met within the Scottish NHS. A London program questioning the SNP's leader at Westminster about his parties record back home, in a completely different parliament to the one he works in, on the NHS. Hmmmm.

 

On the literacy question, would you like him to say, it's English, who gives a stuff  Now that would be a Tory like answer.

 

Laughable is correct. I'm not laughing with you though.

 

 

Msm really struggle to nail the SNP. Just say any old garbage and hope it sticks. There are a lot of numpties in Scotland who will believe anything. 

[Sraman]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Msm really struggle to nail the SNP. Just say any old garbage and hope it sticks. There are a lot of numpties in Scotland who will believe anything. 

 

They make the mistake of believing Ruth is doing well and going down all the exact same tired, old, vacuous circles that she tries. Just like Captain Black, they know they don't fit the square hole but they just love their circles and can't tear themselves away from them for some reason?

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, jake said:

The SNP taking a doing on newsnight on every turn.

And listening to the answers is like listening to Tory shite.

Embarrassing.

 

And to bang on about housing when the situation in the capital city of Scotland is a shit pit is laughable.

 

 

I'm scunnered.

Jake , did you know there were 7 ex  Tory Msps/MPs/Councillors in the Elgin audience of QT, masquerading as the general public. Funny how there's never any yes/Nats/SNP in these audiences. And Elgin, that's right part of the biggest leave vote and no vote in Scotland. Strange option.

[manaliveits105]

Yeah the snp would never fill a hall with their own supporters

so no economic policy but Krankie wants to go for Indy ref whether we leave or remain now 

she has lost all credibility with the silent majority 

but hey Tories bad should work as a policy again - aye ?

[ri Alban]

36 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Yeah the snp would never fill a hall with their own supporters

so no economic policy but Krankie wants to go for Indy ref whether we leave or remain now 

she has lost all credibility with the silent majority 

but hey Tories bad should work as a policy again - aye ?

Filled the hydro.

[frankblack]

8 hours ago, Boris said:

 

I woould imagine an Indy Scotland would have some relationship with the EU like a customs Union so would expect imports from EU would remain much the same.

 

How much will EU imports cost post brexit?

 

Depends.  How would those goods arrive in Scotland?  What is the exchange rate and customs charges.

 

I am not sure what the customs charge implications of getting goods into Scotland from the continent by freight and crossing hard customs borders with the EU-UK, then UK-Scotland would be.

 

Assuming Brexit happens then Scotland would be out of the EU, should they achieve independence.

[ri Alban]

13 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Depends.  How would those goods arrive in Scotland?  What is the exchange rate and customs charges.

 

I am not sure what the customs charge implications of getting goods into Scotland from the continent by freight and crossing hard customs borders with the EU-UK, then UK-Scotland would be.

 

Assuming Brexit happens then Scotland would be out of the EU, should they achieve independence.

And able to negotiate it's own trade deals. Or can we no dae that either.

[Hasselhoff]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Jake , did you know there were 7 ex  Tory Msps/MPs/Councillors in the Elgin audience of QT, masquerading as the general public. Funny how there's never any yes/Nats/SNP in these audiences. And Elgin, that's right part of the biggest leave vote and no vote in Scotland. Strange option.

 

People who like politics tend to be in the audience of politics shows. The average punter doesn't go on. The witch hunt and character assassination of any anti-snp speaker by nationalists right up to Sturgeon's husband is pure intimidation to put people off speaking out in future. 

 

The audience was balanced enough if you listen to the responses to various panelists. There were loud cheers for Swinney in Elgin on some things he said. Being asked where are all the SNP supporters by the host, I'm not surprised not many put their hands up as there is potential for her to put you on the spot for a comment. If you haven't got anything planned to say you look a plum on TV. 

 

Classic nationalism though. Control the media. Why do they always focus on so the audience are but not what the audience is saying? 

 

Got to remember that there is only a minority in support of Indy. You won't get a full audience of SNP people who are there to lavish praise on the pro-Indy panelists as much as you desire it. 

[ri Alban]

2 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

People who like politics tend to be in the audience of politics shows. The average punter doesn't go on. The witch hunt and character assassination of any anti-snp speaker by nationalists right up to Sturgeon's husband is pure intimidation to put people off speaking out in future. 

 

The audience was balanced enough if you listen to the responses to various panelists. There were loud cheers for Swinney in Elgin on some things he said. Being asked where are all the SNP supporters by the host, I'm not surprised not many put their hands up as there is potential for her to put you on the spot for a comment. If you haven't got anything planned to say you look a plum on TV. 

 

Classic nationalism though. Control the media. Why do they always focus on so the audience are but not what the audience is saying? 

 

Got to remember that there is only a minority in support of Indy. You won't get a full audience of SNP people who are there to lavish praise on the pro-Indy panelists as much as you desire it. 

Aye. If you say so. Oh there's a majority of Scots tho.  Same rules as Brexit next time. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by ri Alban

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

And able to negotiate it's own trade deals. Or can we no dae that either.

 

Sure, a piss-weak Scottish currency may seem attractive to importers.   Different matter the other way around.

 

The exchange rate and the lack of credit history for any Scottish currency will kill it.

[Boris]

41 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Depends.  How would those goods arrive in Scotland?  What is the exchange rate and customs charges.

 

Sounds like the opportunity to build infrastructure for Scotland!  Existing ports may help to begin with.  Exchange rate?  Who knows?  Customs charges - would there be any if in a customs union with the EU?

 

Quote

 

I am not sure what the customs charge implications of getting goods into Scotland from the continent by freight and crossing hard customs borders with the EU-UK, then UK-Scotland would be.

 

Why would they have to go through that route?

 

Quote

 

Assuming Brexit happens then Scotland would be out of the EU, should they achieve independence.

 

And very quickly, I would imagine, be part of some sort of EU customs Union.  If indeed Brexit doesn't already include that.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Boris

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

That wasn't the point.  BlankFrank stated that if Scotland gained independence, they'd be crawling back to England within a few years after realizing that they made a massive mistake.

 

Yet, there has NEVER been a recorded case of this actually happening hence the list of countries that gained their independence, one way or another, from Britain.

 

 

Oh dear.  Personal abuse doesn't make your argument any less embarrassing.

 

Scotland really wants to use the likes of Pakistan as examples of independent countries to model.

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Sounds like the opportunity to build infrastructure for Scotland!  Existing ports may help to begin with.  Exchange rate?  Who knows?  Customs charges - would there be any if in a customs union with the EU?

 

 

Why would they have to go through that route?

 

 

And very quickly, I would imagine, be part of some sort of EU customs Union.

 

There are an awful lot of ifs and buts here and assumptions Scotland would get any kind of customs deal.  I am sure the Spanish will demand full control of our fishing rights, of course.  That will really help push independence in the Aberdeenshire areas.

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

There are an awful lot of ifs and buts here and assumptions Scotland would get any kind of customs deal.  I am sure the Spanish will demand full control of our fishing rights, of course.  That will really help push independence in the Aberdeenshire areas.

 

 

I do a lot of work in the Aberdeenshire fishing industry & I can tell you that some are against the EU and some are pro EU.

What the pro EU lot tell me is that if we leave the EU and we get full control of our fishing waters (highly unlikely IMO due to the tories at Westminster will no doubt use the fishing waters round Scotland as a bargaining chip), who's going to actually buy all the extra fish that are caught? Our main market is the EU.

The Eurosceptics claim they just want full control of the waters but in actual fact, 5 families are in control of most of the catches landed in the entire UK and the rest pick up whats left.

The fishing thing is not as cut and dried leave EU as you would like to think it is.

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

There are an awful lot of ifs and buts here and assumptions Scotland would get any kind of customs deal.  I am sure the Spanish will demand full control of our fishing rights, of course.  That will really help push independence in the Aberdeenshire areas.

 

 

 

So why didn't the Spanish get that previously?  Ifs and buts - that's a big one right there!

 

You must have missed the press articles, but an independent Scotland would be welcomed back to the EU very quickly.  If they didn't want to join the EU, then EFTA or EEA wouldn't be an issue either.

 

 

[Boris]

14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

Oh dear.  Personal abuse doesn't make your argument any less embarrassing.

 

Scotland really wants to use the likes of Pakistan as examples of independent countries to model.

 

Yeah because Scotland as it is, and what it could be, is directly comparable to Pakistan, how it was and how it is.

 

 

[XB52]

18 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

All these people arguing that Scotland has the capability of govern itself are missing the point.  I don't see many No voters who would disagree with that thinking, of course it could.  The question I need to know is what are the consequences for me and my family with Scotland being independent.

 

I have worked for too long to risk a drop in house prices, to see any disruption to pensions, to live in a high tax economy, to see Scotland is recession and risk my employment.  I know lots of people will say its worth it to govern ourselves but not for me.  Nothing and I mean nothing is more important than the future I have worked to create for my children.

 

I accept all those things may not happen but they might.  And my nervousness is increased by the SNP saying that post independence there may be a period where things are challenging while the economy stabilises.  I appreciate the honesty from them but hardly going to make me change my vote.

 

Until someone can how me a credible plan for how all these concerns will be mitigated I will always vote no and I expect I am not alone in that.  Brexit has taught is more than ever don't vote for change unless you absolutely know what you are voting for. 

Can you tell me the consequences of Scotland staying part of the UK please.   No???? Didn't think so.  Nobody can see into the future but I know we are as good as any other country with a lot more natural resources than most of them, so our prospects as an independent country are pretty good

[Brighton Jambo]

16 hours ago, coconut doug said:

What's on offer now is Brexit with a decrease in trade and national wealth, if we cannot offset this with increased trade around the world. The value of our currency continues to fall and house prices have been adversely affected. We continue to have one of the lowest state pension rates in the developed world generally because we have a low tax economy. Leaving the EU will provide US health care the opportunity to profiteer from the privatisation of the NHS.

        We have had 120,000 deaths due to austerity but continue to pay PFI providers exhorbitant rates of interest because of their dubious connections to our politicians. We have paid hundreds of billions of pounds to institutions (mainly banks) who lost this money through criminal activities or at best reckless speculation and are allowing the same institutions to do the same thing or worse all over again.

   We are partly responsible for a million deaths in Iraq, We have and continue to support every despot and the worst murderous regimes from Saudi Arabia and ISIS to the Nazis in Ukraine. Our foreign policy is based around the interests of our arms industry and bears no relation to the needs or wishes of the British people.

     We have a government that boasts that people are just about managing and that celebrates the opening of food banks. The wealth divide continues to expand and services decline. Life expectancy has stalled or declined under this government and our politicians have justifiably become laughing stocks internationally and reviled internally. Our infrastructure is often old and crumbling and lacking in investment unless it is serving the capital city and the interests of capitalism generally. We have no coherent plans for anything with all economic activity to be dictated by market forces. We have lots of money for aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons though, neither of which will ever make any contribution to the defence of the country.  Virtually all the social indicators show that most of the UK is going backwards and disproportionately reliant on immigrant labour but we want to restrict their entry further depressing our economic prospects even further.

    Until i can be sure that all of these things will be reversed i will continue to vote for change and believe that an independent Scotland can make better choices for my children.

Sorry but that just isn't an accurate reflection of the situation, not all but a lot of the things you cite the Scottish government has the power to address, but is hasn't.  Why would that suddenly be different after independence?  Also please don't say we wouldn't have an SNP government as after winning independence they are hardly just going to ride off into the night, they will be in power for years to come and people who say otherwise are being disingenuous to allay the fears of no voters:

 

What's on offer now is Brexit with a decrease in trade and national wealth, if we cannot offset this with increased trade around the world. The value of our currency continues to fall and house prices have been adversely affected. There is no chance the pound will ever fall as far as a newly created Scottish currency, something the core voters of the SNP want to see happen as soon as practically possible.. We continue to have one of the lowest state pension rates in the developed world generally because we have a low tax economy So to reverse that we would need a high tax economy, not a problem with that per say as long as its declared up front so people know what they are getting.   Leaving the EU will provide US health care the opportunity to profiteer from the privatisation of the NHS.  The NHS is devolved to Scotland so the current arrangements would prevent that happening.

        We have had 120,000 deaths due to austerity but continue to pay PFI providers exhorbitant rates of interest because of their dubious connections to our politicians. We have paid hundreds of billions of pounds to institutions (mainly banks) who lost this money through criminal activities or at best reckless speculation and are allowing the same institutions to do the same thing or worse all over again.  One of the worst offending banks was Royal Bank of Scotland based in Edinburgh, no reason why independence resolves this issues

   We are partly responsible for a million deaths in Iraq, We have and continue to support every despot and the worst murderous regimes from Saudi Arabia and ISIS , we support ISIS, that is a bold claim to the Nazis in Ukraine. Our foreign policy is based around the interests of our arms industry and bears no relation to the needs or wishes of the British people.

     We have a government that boasts that people are just about managing and that celebrates the opening of food banks. The wealth divide continues to expand and services decline. Life expectancy has stalled or declined under this government Life expectancy in Scotland has always been lower than the rest of the UK and years of SNP government have done nothing to reverse that, why would independence? and our politicians have justifiably become laughing stocks internationally and reviled internally. Our infrastructure is often old and crumbling and lacking in investment unless it is serving the capital city and the interests of capitalism generally  Infrastructure investment is a devolved issue so blame current Scottish government not Westminster We have no coherent plans for anything with all economic activity to be dictated by market forces For the majority of the time of the current Scottish government the Scottish economy has performed worse that rest of UK, cant blame Westminster for that either, We have lots of money for aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons though, neither of which will ever make any contribution to the defence of the country.  Virtually all the social indicators show that most of the UK is going backwards and disproportionately reliant on immigrant labour but we want to restrict their entry further depressing our economic prospects even further.

    Until i can be sure that all of these things will be reversed i will continue to vote for change and believe that an independent Scotland can make better choices for my children.

[Roxy Hearts]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Sure, a piss-weak Scottish currency may seem attractive to importers.   Different matter the other way around.

 

The exchange rate and the lack of credit history for any Scottish currency will kill it.

How can you predict or know what will happen? Could all be milk and honey with gold flakes. I will take my chances and put my trust in the people living here to make the best choices, rather than the utter dross that's here and coming our way from Westminster. 

 

Why are there so many cringing Scots? 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

How can you predict or know what will happen? Could all be milk and honey with gold flakes. I will take my chances and put my trust in the people living here to make the best choices, rather than the utter dross that's here and coming our way from Westminster. 

 

Why are there so many cringing Scots? 

 

You make a reasonable point and then ruin it by throwing an ad hominem at people who have an opposing viewpoint to yours. Why? Do you think that it will achieve anything? It just looks petty. One of the reasons that I voted "No" in the last referendum (it will be "Yes" the next time) was the amount of invective thrown at No supporters by Yes supporters ("you're just scared of change" etc.). Playground insults isn't going to win you the argument, quite the opposite...

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

You make a reasonable point and then ruin it by throwing an ad hominem at people who have an opposing viewpoint to yours. Why? Do you think that it will achieve anything? It just looks petty. One of the reasons that I voted "No" in the last referendum (it will be "Yes" the next time) was the amount of invective thrown at No supporters by Yes supporters ("you're just scared of change" etc.). Playground insults isn't going to win you the argument, quite the opposite...

I can understand why people vote no but it was more to do with putting Scotland down as if we can't or couldn't manage our own affairs. Absurd. Thanks for response. 

[coconut doug]

5 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Sorry but that just isn't an accurate reflection of the situation, not all but a lot of the things you cite the Scottish government has the power to address, but is hasn't.  Why would that suddenly be different after independence?  Also please don't say we wouldn't have an SNP government as after winning independence they are hardly just going to ride off into the night, they will be in power for years to come and people who say otherwise are being disingenuous to allay the fears of no voters:

 

What's on offer now is Brexit with a decrease in trade and national wealth, if we cannot offset this with increased trade around the world. The value of our currency continues to fall and house prices have been adversely affected. There is no chance the pound will ever fall as far as a newly created Scottish currency, something the core voters of the SNP want to see happen as soon as practically possible.. We continue to have one of the lowest state pension rates in the developed world generally because we have a low tax economy So to reverse that we would need a high tax economy, not a problem with that per say as long as its declared up front so people know what they are getting.   Leaving the EU will provide US health care the opportunity to profiteer from the privatisation of the NHS.  The NHS is devolved to Scotland so the current arrangements would prevent that happening.

        We have had 120,000 deaths due to austerity but continue to pay PFI providers exhorbitant rates of interest because of their dubious connections to our politicians. We have paid hundreds of billions of pounds to institutions (mainly banks) who lost this money through criminal activities or at best reckless speculation and are allowing the same institutions to do the same thing or worse all over again.  One of the worst offending banks was Royal Bank of Scotland based in Edinburgh, no reason why independence resolves this issues

   We are partly responsible for a million deaths in Iraq, We have and continue to support every despot and the worst murderous regimes from Saudi Arabia and ISIS , we support ISIS, that is a bold claim to the Nazis in Ukraine. Our foreign policy is based around the interests of our arms industry and bears no relation to the needs or wishes of the British people.

     We have a government that boasts that people are just about managing and that celebrates the opening of food banks. The wealth divide continues to expand and services decline. Life expectancy has stalled or declined under this government Life expectancy in Scotland has always been lower than the rest of the UK and years of SNP government have done nothing to reverse that, why would independence? and our politicians have justifiably become laughing stocks internationally and reviled internally. Our infrastructure is often old and crumbling and lacking in investment unless it is serving the capital city and the interests of capitalism generally  Infrastructure investment is a devolved issue so blame current Scottish government not Westminster We have no coherent plans for anything with all economic activity to be dictated by market forces For the majority of the time of the current Scottish government the Scottish economy has performed worse that rest of UK, cant blame Westminster for that either, We have lots of money for aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons though, neither of which will ever make any contribution to the defence of the country.  Virtually all the social indicators show that most of the UK is going backwards and disproportionately reliant on immigrant labour but we want to restrict their entry further depressing our economic prospects even further.

    Until i can be sure that all of these things will be reversed i will continue to vote for change and believe that an independent Scotland can make better choices for my children.

Without patronising you it’s actually quite good that you choose to engage properly with the substantive points. I will try to do the same.

  With regards to powers the Scotgov already has I’m not convinced that there is any area where they have power that they can use effectively. The Labour argument that we should use certain powers and allocate resources to mitigate against the austerity agenda is frankly silly.Taking resource from one stretched area and giving it to another merely diminishes the quality of service.If there are powers that you think should be used could you tell us which powers and how they could be used effectively.

 I actually do think the SNP would disappear rather quickly after independence but I don’t really think that’s an issue, somebody will have to run the country and despite the offerings of many on here I believe we would have a pragmatic solution to government. I don’t think many in Scotland would want to see a replication of Westminster and FPTP. We would have to have a more consensual approach. It’s probably true that most Tory voters at least those I know are a lot less Gung-ho than those down south appear to be. It’s interesting that should think we might pretend that the SNP would have no future after Indy as a means of allaying the fears of No voters. I would have thought that those on the right might be more scared of a Jeremy Corbyn type government whilst the rest of us are heartily sick of the Tories. The SNP might be bad but isn’t it the point that they are nowhere near as bad as their opponents?

                You say There is no chance the pound will ever fall as far as a newly created Scottish currency, but you offer absolutely nothing to support this view. I remember before the vote people telling us this exact point and claiming any Scottish pound would lose around 20% of it’s value immediately. Actually what has happened is that the UK pound has done just that. I don’t know what will happen but I do know that the strength of a currency is linked to a countries ability to export and attract foreign money. It is undeniable that Scotland exports considerably more per capita than rUK. The UK pound has a significant burden of debt factored into it’s current value as well which is unlikely to affect Scotland so acutely. The pound has been manipulated by speculators for years and the loss of approx. 10% of its market which is what would happen if Scotland became Independent. The differential EU status would surely have a negative affect on RUK pound too, unless of course there really is some kind of Brexit bonus. I wonder what might happen to the Pound if proper financial controls were exerted on Tax havens. In the event of Indy, Scotland would surely get, as the largest English speaking nation in the EU an influx of companies wishing to locate here and at the same time get unfettered access to the EU. Government functions and rUK based jobs serving the whole of the UK will return to Scotland. All these things and probably many more will have a relative strengthening effect on the value of our currency.

   If you want good services you have to pay for them. Even the Tories understand this it’s just that they don’t want anybody else to get them. This is a fundamental issue at the heart of independence, people must understand that taxes will be higher to invest in Health and Education. This is a good thing having a healthy and well educated population is more likely to create wealth and improve standards generally.

  You are right the NHS in Scotland is devolved but we have no way of ensuring it stays that way. In a similar way to EU powers being taken back by London and the refusal of a section 30 order the Scottish NHS may be taken over by others or legally bound to put their services out to tender.

     The losses that banks make are attributed to the locations where these loss making activities took place. It’s been covered many times on here. The UK’s biggest bank defaulter was Barclays but they did not get anything from the UK govt because their loss making activities took place in the USA. Barclays head office is in London but that does not mean that the UK covered its losses. No losses of any significance could be attributed to any banking activity taking place in Scotland. This was the result of lax regulation and rapacious greed. I would like to think that a Scottish govt would not allow the spivs to trash our currency and economy in this fashion. Nothing much seems to have changed and so having all you resource in the UK Pound looks risky to me.

   It’s really unbelievable to think that we actually support Isis and their affiliates but we do. I remember William Hague announcing govt funding for Al Nusra at the beginning of the Syrian conflict. They are now a proscribed terrorist organisation. The government also gave tens of million of pounds to The White Helmets a supposedly humanitarian organisation who have been exposed for terrorist activities in various ways including decapitating children, gassing civilians and fabricating gas attacks. Now that most of Syria is liberated from isis these people can no longer live in their own communities. They have been removed to the U.K. the U.S.A. the Netherlands and Israel. Our associations with terrorists go back as long as terrorists have existed. Western powers armed trained and financed the Mujahidin in Afghanistan, they did the same with the Chechens. The same people were brought to Europe to fight the Bosnian Serbs and they continue to commit atrocities in Syria today. Our media generally refuses to cover the facts but those who have visited Syria tend to tell a different story to that offered by the BBC.

 I agree that life expectancy has shown no significant relative change between Scotland and E+W but the salient point is that life expectancy has declined in both and it would not be too much of a leap to attribute this to austerity. Independence would of course fund health and social services more equably preventing the 120,000 deaths the Lancet says are attributable to austerity. Incidentally Life expectancy has not always been lower in Scotland.

The money required for infrastructure comes from Westminster the same as almost all our money. The point I was making is that investment in infrastructure is concentrated in London and the south east. Scotland has performed reasonably well with new railway lines ,the Queensferry  crossing, Aberdeen bypass, finally finishing the M8 and dualing the A9. All of these were talked about for years but the previous administration gave us the Trams. I don’t know why you think I should blame the Scottish govt my issue is that all previous governments have seriously neglected all kinds of infrastructure all over the UK and that taxpayers are paying huge rates of interest for shoddy constructions exacerbating the problem but allowing the financiers to hide their dubiously acquired gains in tax havens sometimes using it to manipulate our currency and damage our economy. The more widespread renewal of infrastructure coincided with the introduction of blatant usury and crony politics as exemplified by PFI and the Blair government.

You say that since the SNP came to power the economy has performed worse than that of the uk. Can you provide info to support this claim? It might be important to remember that many statistics are skewed by  the disproportionate wealth of London and the South East. IIRC Scotland usually performs favourably when compared to individual English regions and the two other countries. What has happened to the relative quality of services over this period i.e the NHS.

 

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

There are an awful lot of ifs and buts here and assumptions Scotland would get any kind of customs deal.  I am sure the Spanish will demand full control of our fishing rights, of course.  That will really help push independence in the Aberdeenshire areas.

 

 

As opposed to England having control of everything. ? 

I know you keep saying you voted yes, was that by accident.

[coconut doug]

22 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

Why is that not a solution in Ireland? If it was, the deal would be done and there would be no Backstop.

As the border guard states their success is based on co-operation. N Ireland is riven with sectarianism co-operation is virtually impossible. The physical existence of a border facility would be seen as N Ire moving closer to the UK by some. The removal or non existence of  border infrastructure is seen as N Ire moving closer to the republic, by others. Either position risks a reaction from the offended community. There are four interests to placate here as opposed to the Scandinavian option. There is also a very real threat of violence underpinning all potential solutions that doesn't exist in Scandinavia.

   If a system were introduced and worked efficiently this would also reduce the potential for smuggling etc and nobody wants to lose that opportunity.

  The UK will not accept the free movement of people and the Unionists will not accept the free movement of people into N Ireland alone.  We are proposing a totally different relationship with Europe to that of Norway.

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

As opposed to England having control of everything. ? 

I know you keep saying you voted yes, was that by accident.

 

 

You must be the Comical Ali of the Yes voters cult.

 

I've been ignoring your posts as laughably ignorant, but you clearly think you need to resort to personal abuse to win your case.

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

As the border guard states their success is based on co-operation. N Ireland is riven with sectarianism co-operation is virtually impossible. The physical existence of a border facility would be seen as N Ire moving closer to the UK by some. The removal or non existence of  border infrastructure is seen as N Ire moving closer to the republic, by others. Either position risks a reaction from the offended community. There are four interests to placate here as opposed to the Scandinavian option. There is also a very real threat of violence underpinning all potential solutions that doesn't exist in Scandinavia.

   If a system were introduced and worked efficiently this would also reduce the potential for smuggling etc and nobody wants to lose that opportunity.

  The UK will not accept the free movement of people and the Unionists will not accept the free movement of people into N Ireland alone.  We are proposing a totally different relationship with Europe to that of Norway.

 

So how is your hard border with England going to work if you want some form of union with the EU?

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Without patronising you it’s actually quite good that you choose to engage properly with the substantive points. I will try to do the same.

  With regards to powers the Scotgov already has I’m not convinced that there is any area where they have power that they can use effectively. The Labour argument that we should use certain powers and allocate resources to mitigate against the austerity agenda is frankly silly.Taking resource from one stretched area and giving it to another merely diminishes the quality of service.If there are powers that you think should be used could you tell us which powers and how they could be used effectively.

 I actually do think the SNP would disappear rather quickly after independence but I don’t really think that’s an issue, somebody will have to run the country and despite the offerings of many on here I believe we would have a pragmatic solution to government. I don’t think many in Scotland would want to see a replication of Westminster and FPTP. We would have to have a more consensual approach. It’s probably true that most Tory voters at least those I know are a lot less Gung-ho than those down south appear to be. It’s interesting that should think we might pretend that the SNP would have no future after Indy as a means of allaying the fears of No voters. I would have thought that those on the right might be more scared of a Jeremy Corbyn type government whilst the rest of us are heartily sick of the Tories. The SNP might be bad but isn’t it the point that they are nowhere near as bad as their opponents?

                You say There is no chance the pound will ever fall as far as a newly created Scottish currency, but you offer absolutely nothing to support this view. I remember before the vote people telling us this exact point and claiming any Scottish pound would lose around 20% of it’s value immediately. Actually what has happened is that the UK pound has done just that. I don’t know what will happen but I do know that the strength of a currency is linked to a countries ability to export and attract foreign money. It is undeniable that Scotland exports considerably more per capita than rUK. The UK pound has a significant burden of debt factored into it’s current value as well which is unlikely to affect Scotland so acutely. The pound has been manipulated by speculators for years and the loss of approx. 10% of its market which is what would happen if Scotland became Independent. The differential EU status would surely have a negative affect on RUK pound too, unless of course there really is some kind of Brexit bonus. I wonder what might happen to the Pound if proper financial controls were exerted on Tax havens. In the event of Indy, Scotland would surely get, as the largest English speaking nation in the EU an influx of companies wishing to locate here and at the same time get unfettered access to the EU. Government functions and rUK based jobs serving the whole of the UK will return to Scotland. All these things and probably many more will have a relative strengthening effect on the value of our currency.

   If you want good services you have to pay for them. Even the Tories understand this it’s just that they don’t want anybody else to get them. This is a fundamental issue at the heart of independence, people must understand that taxes will be higher to invest in Health and Education. This is a good thing having a healthy and well educated population is more likely to create wealth and improve standards generally.

  You are right the NHS in Scotland is devolved but we have no way of ensuring it stays that way. In a similar way to EU powers being taken back by London and the refusal of a section 30 order the Scottish NHS may be taken over by others or legally bound to put their services out to tender.

     The losses that banks make are attributed to the locations where these loss making activities took place. It’s been covered many times on here. The UK’s biggest bank defaulter was Barclays but they did not get anything from the UK govt because their loss making activities took place in the USA. Barclays head office is in London but that does not mean that the UK covered its losses. No losses of any significance could be attributed to any banking activity taking place in Scotland. This was the result of lax regulation and rapacious greed. I would like to think that a Scottish govt would not allow the spivs to trash our currency and economy in this fashion. Nothing much seems to have changed and so having all you resource in the UK Pound looks risky to me.

   It’s really unbelievable to think that we actually support Isis and their affiliates but we do. I remember William Hague announcing govt funding for Al Nusra at the beginning of the Syrian conflict. They are now a proscribed terrorist organisation. The government also gave tens of million of pounds to The White Helmets a supposedly humanitarian organisation who have been exposed for terrorist activities in various ways including decapitating children, gassing civilians and fabricating gas attacks. Now that most of Syria is liberated from isis these people can no longer live in their own communities. They have been removed to the U.K. the U.S.A. the Netherlands and Israel. Our associations with terrorists go back as long as terrorists have existed. Western powers armed trained and financed the Mujahidin in Afghanistan, they did the same with the Chechens. The same people were brought to Europe to fight the Bosnian Serbs and they continue to commit atrocities in Syria today. Our media generally refuses to cover the facts but those who have visited Syria tend to tell a different story to that offered by the BBC.

 I agree that life expectancy has shown no significant relative change between Scotland and E+W but the salient point is that life expectancy has declined in both and it would not be too much of a leap to attribute this to austerity. Independence would of course fund health and social services more equably preventing the 120,000 deaths the Lancet says are attributable to austerity. Incidentally Life expectancy has not always been lower in Scotland.

The money required for infrastructure comes from Westminster the same as almost all our money. The point I was making is that investment in infrastructure is concentrated in London and the south east. Scotland has performed reasonably well with new railway lines ,the Queensferry  crossing, Aberdeen bypass, finally finishing the M8 and dualing the A9. All of these were talked about for years but the previous administration gave us the Trams. I don’t know why you think I should blame the Scottish govt my issue is that all previous governments have seriously neglected all kinds of infrastructure all over the UK and that taxpayers are paying huge rates of interest for shoddy constructions exacerbating the problem but allowing the financiers to hide their dubiously acquired gains in tax havens sometimes using it to manipulate our currency and damage our economy. The more widespread renewal of infrastructure coincided with the introduction of blatant usury and crony politics as exemplified by PFI and the Blair government.

You say that since the SNP came to power the economy has performed worse than that of the uk. Can you provide info to support this claim? It might be important to remember that many statistics are skewed by  the disproportionate wealth of London and the South East. IIRC Scotland usually performs favourably when compared to individual English regions and the two other countries. What has happened to the relative quality of services over this period i.e the NHS.

 

 

A Scottish currency will have no credit history and will be rated based on risk and economic factors such as debt and fiscal deficit.

 

Ask yourself how you think a newly independent country with a new currency and no track record with lots of issues to solve will be seen by the world markets.

[coconut doug]

18 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So how is your hard border with England going to work if you want some form of union with the EU?

Who knows but it could be a bit like the one between Norway and Sweden as linked above, described by the BBC as frictionless and by the operators as the smoothest border in the world.

[coconut doug]

9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

A Scottish currency will have no credit history and will be rated based on risk and economic factors such as debt and fiscal deficit.

 

Ask yourself how you think a newly independent country with a new currency and no track record with lots of issues to solve will be seen by the world markets.

Scotland is not going to equifax or a credit ratings agency for a reference. Scotland has no debt unless it has assets and even then the legal position as i understand it is that the continuing country carries the debt. Scotland does not have a fiscal deficit either. 

 I've asked myself that question now why don't you tell me how it is that Scotland cannot support its currency when it exports more per capita than rUK. Why don't you explain why our currency is tanking now and has been in decline all of my life. Maybe you could also explain why you think it is important for a central bank to be the lender of last resort and while you at it explain why it is beneficial for a country to allow casino banking and underwrite the risks that go with it?

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Who knows but it could be a bit like the one between Norway and Sweden as linked above, described by the BBC as frictionless and by the operators as the smoothest border in the world.

 

It still leaves the same issues as Ireland's border to be resolved before the EU would let you in.

[coconut doug]

26 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It still leaves the same issues as Ireland's border to be resolved before the EU would let you in.

I think not.

[frankblack]

59 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Scotland is not going to equifax or a credit ratings agency for a reference. Scotland has no debt unless it has assets and even then the legal position as i understand it is that the continuing country carries the debt. Scotland does not have a fiscal deficit either. 

 I've asked myself that question now why don't you tell me how it is that Scotland cannot support its currency when it exports more per capita than rUK. Why don't you explain why our currency is tanking now and has been in decline all of my life. Maybe you could also explain why you think it is important for a central bank to be the lender of last resort and while you at it explain why it is beneficial for a country to allow casino banking and underwrite the risks that go with it?

 

I think you are extremely naive and don't understand how the credit ratimg of your currency affects the exchange rate.

 

Here is some reading for you:

https://www.purefx.co.uk/foreign-currency-exchange-insight/view/how-do-credit-ratings-influence-the-foreign-exchange-rate

[frankblack]

36 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

I think not.

 

Please elaborate on why a Scottish border would not have to meet the same criteria as the Irish border in Brexit for the EU?

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I think you are extremely naive and don't understand how the credit ratimg of your currency affects the exchange rate.

 

Here is some reading for you:

https://www.purefx.co.uk/foreign-currency-exchange-insight/view/how-do-credit-ratings-influence-the-foreign-exchange-rate

Standard and Poor confirmed we would get a AAA rating at last referendum. You do try and find ways to run our country down don't you? There are borders all over the planet and every country manages fine. The only borders appear to be on your mind. Have you ever tried thinking rationally and not like a unionist?

[Smoked-Glass]

Would vote NO again.   Consider myself British as well as Scottish. 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Please elaborate on why a Scottish border would not have to meet the same criteria as the Irish border in Brexit for the EU?

Scotland doesn't have a good Friday agreement equivalent.

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Standard and Poor confirmed we would get a AAA rating at last referendum. You do try and find ways to run our country down don't you? There are borders all over the planet and every country manages fine. The only borders appear to be on your mind. Have you ever tried thinking rationally and not like a unionist?

 

Different circumstances - Brexit, oil price collapsed, Scottish currency rather than pound.

 

A credit rating would be built on the actual economic facts post independence as it would be based on incomplete data otherwise.

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

Scotland doesn't have a good Friday agreement equivalent.

 

I was thinking of freedom of movement, and customs.  Gfa wasn't a consideration.

[Boris]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

I was thinking of freedom of movement, and customs.  Gfa wasn't a consideration.

As I understand it, it's the gfa terms that are causing the issue with brexit.

 

Taking that away, you could operate like Sweden and Norway, I guess.

[Sraman]

8 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

You make a reasonable point and then ruin it by throwing an ad hominem at people who have an opposing viewpoint to yours. Why? Do you think that it will achieve anything? It just looks petty. One of the reasons that I voted "No" in the last referendum (it will be "Yes" the next time) was the amount of invective thrown at No supporters by Yes supporters ("you're just scared of change" etc.). Playground insults isn't going to win you the argument, quite the opposite...

 

Opposing viewpoint?

 

Captain Black is the Kickback Comedian. Opposing viewpoint. Hahahahaha.

[Roxy Hearts]

18 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Different circumstances - Brexit, oil price collapsed, Scottish currency rather than pound.

 

A credit rating would be built on the actual economic facts post independence as it would be based on incomplete data otherwise.

It's oil that's propping the pound! 

[Geoff the Mince]

6 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Without patronising you it’s actually quite good that you choose to engage properly with the substantive points. I will try to do the same.

  With regards to powers the Scotgov already has I’m not convinced that there is any area where they have power that they can use effectively. The Labour argument that we should use certain powers and allocate resources to mitigate against the austerity agenda is frankly silly.Taking resource from one stretched area and giving it to another merely diminishes the quality of service.If there are powers that you think should be used could you tell us which powers and how they could be used effectively.

 I actually do think the SNP would disappear rather quickly after independence but I don’t really think that’s an issue, somebody will have to run the country and despite the offerings of many on here I believe we would have a pragmatic solution to government. I don’t think many in Scotland would want to see a replication of Westminster and FPTP. We would have to have a more consensual approach. It’s probably true that most Tory voters at least those I know are a lot less Gung-ho than those down south appear to be. It’s interesting that should think we might pretend that the SNP would have no future after Indy as a means of allaying the fears of No voters. I would have thought that those on the right might be more scared of a Jeremy Corbyn type government whilst the rest of us are heartily sick of the Tories. The SNP might be bad but isn’t it the point that they are nowhere near as bad as their opponents?

                You say There is no chance the pound will ever fall as far as a newly created Scottish currency, but you offer absolutely nothing to support this view. I remember before the vote people telling us this exact point and claiming any Scottish pound would lose around 20% of it’s value immediately. Actually what has happened is that the UK pound has done just that. I don’t know what will happen but I do know that the strength of a currency is linked to a countries ability to export and attract foreign money. It is undeniable that Scotland exports considerably more per capita than rUK. The UK pound has a significant burden of debt factored into it’s current value as well which is unlikely to affect Scotland so acutely. The pound has been manipulated by speculators for years and the loss of approx. 10% of its market which is what would happen if Scotland became Independent. The differential EU status would surely have a negative affect on RUK pound too, unless of course there really is some kind of Brexit bonus. I wonder what might happen to the Pound if proper financial controls were exerted on Tax havens. In the event of Indy, Scotland would surely get, as the largest English speaking nation in the EU an influx of companies wishing to locate here and at the same time get unfettered access to the EU. Government functions and rUK based jobs serving the whole of the UK will return to Scotland. All these things and probably many more will have a relative strengthening effect on the value of our currency.

   If you want good services you have to pay for them. Even the Tories understand this it’s just that they don’t want anybody else to get them. This is a fundamental issue at the heart of independence, people must understand that taxes will be higher to invest in Health and Education. This is a good thing having a healthy and well educated population is more likely to create wealth and improve standards generally.

  You are right the NHS in Scotland is devolved but we have no way of ensuring it stays that way. In a similar way to EU powers being taken back by London and the refusal of a section 30 order the Scottish NHS may be taken over by others or legally bound to put their services out to tender.

     The losses that banks make are attributed to the locations where these loss making activities took place. It’s been covered many times on here. The UK’s biggest bank defaulter was Barclays but they did not get anything from the UK govt because their loss making activities took place in the USA. Barclays head office is in London but that does not mean that the UK covered its losses. No losses of any significance could be attributed to any banking activity taking place in Scotland. This was the result of lax regulation and rapacious greed. I would like to think that a Scottish govt would not allow the spivs to trash our currency and economy in this fashion. Nothing much seems to have changed and so having all you resource in the UK Pound looks risky to me.

   It’s really unbelievable to think that we actually support Isis and their affiliates but we do. I remember William Hague announcing govt funding for Al Nusra at the beginning of the Syrian conflict. They are now a proscribed terrorist organisation. The government also gave tens of million of pounds to The White Helmets a supposedly humanitarian organisation who have been exposed for terrorist activities in various ways including decapitating children, gassing civilians and fabricating gas attacks. Now that most of Syria is liberated from isis these people can no longer live in their own communities. They have been removed to the U.K. the U.S.A. the Netherlands and Israel. Our associations with terrorists go back as long as terrorists have existed. Western powers armed trained and financed the Mujahidin in Afghanistan, they did the same with the Chechens. The same people were brought to Europe to fight the Bosnian Serbs and they continue to commit atrocities in Syria today. Our media generally refuses to cover the facts but those who have visited Syria tend to tell a different story to that offered by the BBC.

 I agree that life expectancy has shown no significant relative change between Scotland and E+W but the salient point is that life expectancy has declined in both and it would not be too much of a leap to attribute this to austerity. Independence would of course fund health and social services more equably preventing the 120,000 deaths the Lancet says are attributable to austerity. Incidentally Life expectancy has not always been lower in Scotland.

The money required for infrastructure comes from Westminster the same as almost all our money. The point I was making is that investment in infrastructure is concentrated in London and the south east. Scotland has performed reasonably well with new railway lines ,the Queensferry  crossing, Aberdeen bypass, finally finishing the M8 and dualing the A9. All of these were talked about for years but the previous administration gave us the Trams. I don’t know why you think I should blame the Scottish govt my issue is that all previous governments have seriously neglected all kinds of infrastructure all over the UK and that taxpayers are paying huge rates of interest for shoddy constructions exacerbating the problem but allowing the financiers to hide their dubiously acquired gains in tax havens sometimes using it to manipulate our currency and damage our economy. The more widespread renewal of infrastructure coincided with the introduction of blatant usury and crony politics as exemplified by PFI and the Blair government.

You say that since the SNP came to power the economy has performed worse than that of the uk. Can you provide info to support this claim? It might be important to remember that many statistics are skewed by  the disproportionate wealth of London and the South East. IIRC Scotland usually performs favourably when compared to individual English regions and the two other countries. What has happened to the relative quality of services over this period i.e the NHS.

 

the west didn't fund the Chechens and no more than a handful (if that) Chechens fought in Bosnia , I've enjoyed reading your posts recently but you always believe the Russian propaganda and no doubt watch RT .

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

It was entirely appropriate as you've missed the point, for the fourth time.

 

 

Complete nonsense.  You just don't know when to quit when you have humiliated yourself.

[frankblack]

53 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

It's oil that's propping the pound!