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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

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Pans Jambo
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

:cornette_dog:

 

You asked me to back up my point on opinion polls with sources.  I did that and instead of debating the examples you deflect with insults.

 

Trying to debate with you on the topic of independence is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — you knock the pieces over, crap on the board, and fly back to your flock to claim victory.

Take a toddy and go to bed mate. All you had to admit was your opinion was based on nothing but your imagination. 

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frankblack
34 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Take a toddy and go to bed mate. All you had to admit was your opinion was based on nothing but your imagination. 

 

:rolleyes:

 

Oh dear.  I am still waiting on you reading the article I posted that you have conveniently ignored.

 

Stop acting like a bairn who won't admit they were wrong.

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Pans Jambo
8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

:rolleyes:

 

Oh dear.  I am still waiting on you reading the article I posted that you have conveniently ignored.

 

Stop acting like a bairn who won't admit they were wrong.

Are you a woman? Never wrong! ?

Read our conversation again. Your opinion is just that, an opinion that “the nationalists” will be defeated. I disagreed and backed that up with a recent poll. Now we both agree that polls Can and are often wrong but at least my opinion has a bit more weight to it than yours but.....

 

YOU wont admit that. 

 

I gonni start calling you Betty no Frank from now on!

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Pans Jambo

Not suggesting this is in any way accurate but makes you think about it...

 

 

89E7FCC6-C8BA-46E7-A313-670771060903.jpeg

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frankblack
2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Are you a woman? Never wrong! ?

Read our conversation again. Your opinion is just that, an opinion that “the nationalists” will be defeated. I disagreed and backed that up with a recent poll. Now we both agree that polls Can and are often wrong but at least my opinion has a bit more weight to it than yours but.....

 

YOU wont admit that. 

 

I gonni start calling you Betty no Frank from now on!

 

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

 

I will repeat for the umpteenth time as you seem to be hard of thinking.  You asked for sources to back my opinion on opinion polls being worthless.  I linked a Guardian article listing a number of recent elections they got it wrong.

 

As you are chucking about personal abuse rather than debate as an adult, I think my case is proven.  I gave you several chances.

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Pans Jambo
1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

 

I will repeat for the umpteenth time as you seem to be hard of thinking.  You asked for sources to back my opinion on opinion polls being worthless.  I linked a Guardian article listing a number of recent elections they got it wrong.

 

As you are chucking about personal abuse rather than debate as an adult, I think my case is proven.  I gave you several chances.

Wrong wrong wrong. Read it again. I didnt ask you anything about polls. I asked you to admit that your opinion is just an opinion but you deflect to an article about polls to cover up your pride getting a dent. 

 

Your getting really boring now. Was fun 2 days ago. 

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frankblack
4 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Wrong wrong wrong. Read it again. I didnt ask you anything about polls. I asked you to admit that your opinion is just an opinion but you deflect to an article about polls to cover up your pride getting a dent. 

 

Your getting really boring now. Was fun 2 days ago. 

 

You are having a mare, give it up.

 

Now you are trying to change the topic.  I covered the Holyrood elections separately before you started trying to jump on opinion polls.  Either way my previous answers covered it.

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Boris
19 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Here is an article with plenty of epic failure examples of polls for recent elections:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/18/opinion-polls-unreliable-banning-elections

 

You seem desperate to believe anything that backs the SNP despite recent history not supporting your case.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in respect of Holyrood elections and Westminster elections, in Scotland at least, the polls haven't been too far off the mark?  

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Pans Jambo
4 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

You are having a mare, give it up.

 

Now you are trying to change the topic.  I covered the Holyrood elections separately before you started trying to jump on opinion polls.  Either way my previous answers covered it.

Apology accepted. 

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frankblack
4 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in respect of Holyrood elections and Westminster elections, in Scotland at least, the polls haven't been too far off the mark?  

 

Did they predict the SNP to lose 1/3rd of their 50 MPs two years ago?

 

That type of result at Holyrood next time means curtains for Independence.

 

In the meantime, the Tories and Labour will be desperate to strike a grubby deal on the Brexit Withdrawal to minimise the damage they are going to get.

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Class of 75
Posted (edited)
On 13/05/2019 at 07:31, Hunky Dory said:

 

Spot on.  Who can forget the US, Ireland, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Israel, India, South Africa, Australia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Sudan, Ghana, Sri Lanka, Malta, Jamaica, Trinidad, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Tanzania, Somoa, Malawi, Uganda, Barbados, Maldives, Mauritius, Yemen, Nauru, Bahamas, Qatar, Bahrain, Fiji, Saint Lucia, Canada, New Zealand, Saint Kitts etc. all crawling back to the UK after experiencing financial ruin.

Aside from the US and the other 3 eyes the remaining are a mess and not s good example of independence 

Edited by Class of 75

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Hasselhoff
13 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in respect of Holyrood elections and Westminster elections, in Scotland at least, the polls haven't been too far off the mark?  

 

Survation were the most accurate polling company when it came to indyref. 

 

They are also the polling company who have returned in two separate polls 3 or 4 months apart that 60% then 61% want to remain in the UK. 

 

 

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JamboX2
23 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Not suggesting this is in any way accurate but makes you think about it...

 

 

89E7FCC6-C8BA-46E7-A313-670771060903.jpeg

 

How does sourceless and potentially inaccurate material make you think?

 

That's like saying flat earthers make you think.

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Boris
1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

How does sourceless and potentially inaccurate material make you think?

 

That's like saying flat earthers make you think.

 

TBF flat earthers do make you think.  Think how daft they are.

 

The image, to me, merely pointed out how much influence Holyrood has, the EU has and Westminster has.  The figures quoted are sourced as there are references in the image.

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Pans Jambo
30 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

TBF flat earthers do make you think.  Think how daft they are.

 

The image, to me, merely pointed out how much influence Holyrood has, the EU has and Westminster has.  The figures quoted are sourced as there are references in the image.

Wot he said.

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Boris
15 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Did they predict the SNP to lose 1/3rd of their 50 MPs two years ago?

 

That type of result at Holyrood next time means curtains for Independence.

 

In the meantime, the Tories and Labour will be desperate to strike a grubby deal on the Brexit Withdrawal to minimise the damage they are going to get.

 

Maybe not 1/3 but vote share for all the parties wasn't too far away - I guess with FPTP it's hard to translate share of vote with seats?  But in general the polls were not too far away.

 

But, as I alluded to when I posted the graphic, a poll is a poll and can't be taken as gospel, but by and large they offer a degree of reality to people's intentions.  IMO.

 

 

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AlphonseCapone
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

Aside from the US and the other 3 eyes the remaining are a mess and not s good example of independence 

 

Horrendous and arrogant post. Fancy detailing why exactly each of those countries are a mess? And make sure you don't use anything that also applies to the UK. 

 

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

How does sourceless and potentially inaccurate material make you think?

 

That's like saying flat earthers make you think.

 

It's pretty obvious what it shows if accurate. Baffling you'd need it explained. Comparing it flat earthers is ridiculous. 

 

Based on everything you say about Scottish independence on all the political threads I can only conclude that you are either lying about voting yes in 2014 or you're deranged for voting for something you do nothing but point out all the reasons for not doing it. 

Edited by AlphonseCapone

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jack D and coke
13 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Based on everything you say about Scottish independence on all the political threads I can only conclude that you are either lying about voting yes in 2014 or you're deranged for voting for something you do nothing but point out all the reasons for not doing it. 

He’s not the only one. 

There’s another on this thread who is possible the most SNP hating, Scotland cringing, anti independence poster on the site who says he voted Yes. 

Its laughable :lol: 

Suppose it’s probably to try convince people that’s they’ve now seen the light or something and make you do likewise when it’s as clear as the nose on your face it’s complete and utter lies that they voted the other way in the previous indyref. 

Have an opinion there’s nothing wrong with wanting to keep the union if that’s what you really believe in but stop talking absolute dung into the bargain. 

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JamboX2
1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

It's pretty obvious what it shows if accurate. Baffling you'd need it explained. Comparing it flat earthers is ridiculous. 

 

Based on everything you say about Scottish independence on all the political threads I can only conclude that you are either lying about voting yes in 2014 or you're deranged for voting for something you do nothing but point out all the reasons for not doing it. 

 

Not at all. I voted Yes in 2014. But times have moved on and my views of the situation have changed as events have changed. If it had happened in 2014 we would've had 0 concerns over our borders with the UK. Now we will. We would actively be choosing one political future over the other and would find it very hard to bridge the two.

 

Events dear boy events. 

 

Plus a better understanding of the fact the oil price slump would've caused turbo charged austerity in public finances also changed my mind. 

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JamboX2
2 hours ago, Boris said:

 

TBF flat earthers do make you think.  Think how daft they are.

 

The image, to me, merely pointed out how much influence Holyrood has, the EU has and Westminster has.  The figures quoted are sourced as there are references in the image.

 

But you can't equate power and influence into wee pie charts and graphs. The nature of legal and political power is a hard to quantify thing. Holyrood is an extremely powerful institution. How many Acts of Parliament from Westminster affect Scotland these days? How many contain (Scotland) in brackets in the title? 

 

Very few. Think that's a very good indicator.

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Boris
5 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But you can't equate power and influence into wee pie charts and graphs. The nature of legal and political power is a hard to quantify thing. Holyrood is an extremely powerful institution. How many Acts of Parliament from Westminster affect Scotland these days? How many contain (Scotland) in brackets in the title? 

 

Very few. Think that's a very good indicator.

 

On certain things, on others it isn't.  And perhaps some of those others would make the devolved powers stronger?  Or benefit society?

 

For example - immigration.  If Scotland needs people to come in to help the economy we can't make that decision, Westminster does.

 

Student visas - 3 years.  Degrees are 4 in Scotland.

 

Drugs policy - legalise marijuana for example.  Scotland may wish to do this, but Westminster won't let them.

 

Nuclear weapons another one.

 

How many AoP from Westminster affect Scotland?  It only needs one.  Article 50 for example.

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AlphonseCapone
29 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Not at all. I voted Yes in 2014. But times have moved on and my views of the situation have changed as events have changed. If it had happened in 2014 we would've had 0 concerns over our borders with the UK. Now we will. We would actively be choosing one political future over the other and would find it very hard to bridge the two.

 

Events dear boy events. 

 

Plus a better understanding of the fact the oil price slump would've caused turbo charged austerity in public finances also changed my mind. 

 

But you weren't sufficiently worried over currency or EU membership at the time to put you off voting yes?

 

I just can't rationalise it in my head that current events put you off and you're so negative about independence now but the currency concerns, something that was a, if not thee, major weakness of the independence argument at the time and something that would potentially have impacted people more than anything else including in regards to house prices, wages, pensions etc, didn't put you off? 

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AlphonseCapone
32 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But you can't equate power and influence into wee pie charts and graphs. The nature of legal and political power is a hard to quantify thing. Holyrood is an extremely powerful institution. How many Acts of Parliament from Westminster affect Scotland these days? How many contain (Scotland) in brackets in the title? 

 

Very few. Think that's a very good indicator.

 

It's not about the numbers, it's about the balance. Scotland had a lot of power just now, more so than other nations in the UK, but not over some of the most fundamental and important issues. It's one thing to be able to decide to add a 20p level on plastic bottles, it's another to decide on immigration policies, something the UK are changing to our significant detriment or the fact 2 out of 3 Scots voted to remain in the EU, yet we leave anyway. 

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JamboX2
6 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

But you weren't sufficiently worried over currency or EU membership at the time to put you off voting yes?

 

I just can't rationalise it in my head that current events put you off and you're so negative about independence now but the currency concerns, something that was a, if not thee, major weakness of the independence argument at the time and something that would potentially have impacted people more than anything else including in regards to house prices, wages, pensions etc, didn't put you off? 

 

Those are still major weaknesses in the campaign for independence. If anything my greater understanding of that and how it would affect me, my family and friends firmed my move away from yes. 

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JamboX2
4 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

It's not about the numbers, it's about the balance. Scotland had a lot of power just now, more so than other nations in the UK, but not over some of the most fundamental and important issues. It's one thing to be able to decide to add a 20p level on plastic bottles, it's another to decide on immigration policies, something the UK are changing to our significant detriment or the fact 2 out of 3 Scots voted to remain in the EU, yet we leave anyway. 

 

The vote was a UK wide vote and any nation will always have a denocratic deficit. What of the North East, Shetland and the Hebrides don't want to go back into the EU if Scotland became independent based on the terms of membership? Do you hold off for 100% or go on the majority vote?

 

I think power is better shared than boxed off, devolution would be better if it was collectivised and shared. But the issue is also use of power and the political will to affect change. The SNP aren't arguably going as far as they could with the powers they have. Rather than make difficult spending choices on an extra top up on child benefits they ppt to not do so. Instead of strong rent controls and action on airbnb they opted to side with the landlords and the developers behind it. More money to the NHS whilst education goes backwards. Health inequalities remain stagnant but there's no deep consideration of how chnaging the structures of how we run and provide health care to better match local need.

 

There are major questions to me about political will in Holyrood on all sides. What is the point in independence if that political will is for more of the same? 

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JamboX2
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

On certain things, on others it isn't.  And perhaps some of those others would make the devolved powers stronger?  Or benefit society?

 

For example - immigration.  If Scotland needs people to come in to help the economy we can't make that decision, Westminster does.

 

Student visas - 3 years.  Degrees are 4 in Scotland.

 

Drugs policy - legalise marijuana for example.  Scotland may wish to do this, but Westminster won't let them.

 

Nuclear weapons another one.

 

How many AoP from Westminster affect Scotland?  It only needs one.  Article 50 for example.

 

But sometimes you need to decide that somethigs are better decided at a higher level or for the benefit of a wider area. Scotland could be out voted on issues in the EU like the UK has and other nations onajor EU wide policies. So you'll always have that issue. 

 

Then again what is in the interest of Scotland is not always in the interest of different groups of Scottish people. 

 

As you'll no doubt agree nationalism, civic or ethnic, sees no difference between the laird and the van driver. They're all the same people. Same intersts. That cannot be right.

Edited by JamboX2

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Boris
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But sometimes you need to decide that somethigs are better decided at a higher level or for the benefit of a wider area. Scotland could be out voted on issues in the EU like the UK has and other nations onajor EU wide policies. So you'll always have that issue. 

 

Yes, but with the likes of the EU referendum, Scotland is not treated as an equal, as the UK is within the EU, but rather a region, like Yorkshire or Cornwall, yet we were told that the UK is a Union of Equals.  So while some things may well be better decided at a higher level, let's not pretend that Scotland is at that table, so to speak.

 

Quote

 

Then again what is in the interest of Scotland is not always in the interest of different groups of Scottish people. 

 

As you'll no doubt agree nationalism, civic or ethnic, sees no difference between the laird and the van driver. They're all the same people. Same intersts. That cannot be right.

 

I'm not really sure what your point is here.  

 

Ethnic nationalism may well differentiate between different groups of citizens in Scotland.  Thankfully that's not the type of vision the independence movement has, as you mention civic, which is probably the best way to describe it here.

 

So civic nationalism would see no difference between the laird and the van driver, in certain things, but naturally in politics some measures will benefit more than they will others.

 

 

Edited by Boris

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ri Alban
2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

He’s not the only one. 

There’s another on this thread who is possible the most SNP hating, Scotland cringing, anti independence poster on the site who says he voted Yes. 

Its laughable :lol: 

Suppose it’s probably to try convince people that’s they’ve now seen the light or something and make you do likewise when it’s as clear as the nose on your face it’s complete and utter lies that they voted the other way in the previous indyref. 

Have an opinion there’s nothing wrong with wanting to keep the union if that’s what you really believe in but stop talking absolute dung into the bargain. 

:asiancat:

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ri Alban
1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

It's not about the numbers, it's about the balance. Scotland had a lot of power just now, more so than other nations in the UK, but not over some of the most fundamental and important issues. It's one thing to be able to decide to add a 20p level on plastic bottles, it's another to decide on immigration policies, something the UK are changing to our significant detriment or the fact 2 out of 3 Scots voted to remain in the EU, yet we leave anyway. 

He lives in London now, he's still mad the SNP destroyed labour back in 2015. But now it seems he's no longer Labour either. So Basically,. Karen Dunbar can smell it!

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ri Alban
51 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But sometimes you need to decide that somethigs are better decided at a higher level or for the benefit of a wider area. Scotland could be out voted on issues in the EU like the UK has and other nations onajor EU wide policies. So you'll always have that issue. 

 

Then again what is in the interest of Scotland is not always in the interest of different groups of Scottish people. 

 

As you'll no doubt agree nationalism, civic or ethnic, sees no difference between the laird and the van driver. They're all the same people. Same intersts. That cannot be right.

The Scottish parliament should be the highest level. That's the point on Independence. But you know that, really. Don't you, X2.  Yes voter, my Jim Royal.

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Not at all. I voted Yes in 2014. But times have moved on and my views of the situation have changed as events have changed. If it had happened in 2014 we would've had 0 concerns over our borders with the UK. Now we will. We would actively be choosing one political future over the other and would find it very hard to bridge the two.

 

Events dear boy events. 

 

Plus a better understanding of the fact the oil price slump would've caused turbo charged austerity in public finances also changed my mind. 

What are your concerns about the borders? We have extended the common travel area beyond brexit. https://www.ft.com/content/2b3fccf4-7186-11e9-bf5c-6eeb837566c5

 

Perhaps you think that Scotland would be excluded from simple pragmatic solutions that apply to other countries.

 

 Have you spotted any turbo charged austerity in the UK and have you seen any part of the Uk where it has been mitigated to a significant degree and have you noticed anywhere in the UK where the situation in public service provision is getting relatively better and often improving in absolute terms. I'm thinking Crime, NHS performance indicators and School spending.

 

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AlphonseCapone
1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The vote was a UK wide vote and any nation will always have a denocratic deficit. What of the North East, Shetland and the Hebrides don't want to go back into the EU if Scotland became independent based on the terms of membership? Do you hold off for 100% or go on the majority vote?

 

I think power is better shared than boxed off, devolution would be better if it was collectivised and shared. But the issue is also use of power and the political will to affect change. The SNP aren't arguably going as far as they could with the powers they have. Rather than make difficult spending choices on an extra top up on child benefits they ppt to not do so. Instead of strong rent controls and action on airbnb they opted to side with the landlords and the developers behind it. More money to the NHS whilst education goes backwards. Health inequalities remain stagnant but there's no deep consideration of how chnaging the structures of how we run and provide health care to better match local need.

 

There are major questions to me about political will in Holyrood on all sides. What is the point in independence if that political will is for more of the same? 

 

It was a UK vote, and it basically highlighted the fundamental problem with the UK, that we are not a union of equal nations. The UK isn't like most other nations, and the argument of "what if Edinburgh decides blah.." that folk throw around isn't valid. The UK is a union of four nations, it isn't comparable to counties in some other nation voting differently to each other.

 

Independence brings full powers to enact changes. Whether the desire or will to make bold or radical changes transpires will depend on the Government of the day. One thing is certain, Scotland literally can't take some of the bold and radical decisions it should at the minute because we don't have the powers to. We also have the cop out of, blame Westminster. 

 

 

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JamboX2
Posted (edited)
On 17/05/2019 at 13:40, coconut doug said:

What are your concerns about the borders? We have extended the common travel area beyond brexit. https://www.ft.com/content/2b3fccf4-7186-11e9-bf5c-6eeb837566c5

 

Perhaps you think that Scotland would be excluded from simple pragmatic solutions that apply to other countries.

 

 Have you spotted any turbo charged austerity in the UK and have you seen any part of the Uk where it has been mitigated to a significant degree and have you noticed anywhere in the UK where the situation in public service provision is getting relatively better and often improving in absolute terms. I'm thinking Crime, NHS performance indicators and School spending.

 

 

As we have seen with the Brexit talks the CTA is no solution in of itself on the Irish border. The conditions of Scottish membership of the EU and the EU's relationship with Britain will define the border arrangements for Scotland. 

 

It won't be an open border, this is not in my view a good thing going forward or long term. Take a similar approach to Brexit with this, breaking things up is not a solution to our woes. In many ways it may exacerbate them.

 

I think the UK as a whole is reeling from austerity brought in by the Coalition in 2010. The fabric of the nation has been torn up. Independence to me, and the economics proposed around that, don't solve these problems. In many ways they maintain them. Political change is needed.

Edited by JamboX2

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coconut doug
2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

As we have seen with the Brexit talks the CTA is no solution in of itself on the Irish border. The conditions of Scottish membership of the EU and the EU's relationship with Britain will define the border arrangements for Scotland. 

 

It won't be an open border, this is not in my view a good thing going forward or long term. Take a similar approach to Brexit with this, breaking things up is not a solution to our woes. In many ways it may exacerbate them.

 

I think the UK as a whole is reeling from austerity brought in by the Coalition in 2010. The fabric of the nation has been torn up. Independence to me, and the economics proposed around that, don't solve these problems. In many ways they maintain them. Political change is needed.

Funnily enough the current arrangements and those expected to prevail after a No Deal Brexit are both described as an Open Border situation by the UK gov https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/travelling-in-the-common-travel-area-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/travelling-within-the-common-travel-area-and-the-associated-rights-of-british-and-irish-citi and Wikipaedias descriptioon of what the CTA is  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area 

They even made a committment for the fulture "Where required, domestic legislation and agreements will be updated to ensure that the CTA rights continue to have a clear legal basis."

 

   All the nonsense about border checks dreamt up by Miliband and others would apear to be just that but of course there is the previously raised problem that simple, common sense solutions to everyday problems would not somehow apply to Scotland and the Scots. Perhaps you have knowledge that in the event of Indy and Scotland remaining in the EU Scotland would be excluded from the CTA.

 

 The whole of the UK has been affected by austerity and the next chapter is the privatisation of the NHS. The good news is that Scotland has shown that it is more resilient in many areas. Taking action like increasing income Tax for for the higher earners and rejigging the Council Tax helps a bit to mediate against the worst effects. Conversely Both Labour and Tories voted for the most regressive budget i can ever remember giving the rich tax cuts They also voted to cut disabilty benefits.

  We have a different approach in Scotland which can of course be more effective if we were to have total control.

       Political change is needed it's just that afaics south of the border that means Farage and/or Bojo. IMO their ascendancy will demonstrate to all fair minded people in Scotland that we have different values to southern Britons generally.

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coconut doug
On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 02:46, Hasselhoff said:

 

Survation were the most accurate polling company when it came to indyref. 

 

They are also the polling company who have returned in two separate polls 3 or 4 months apart that 60% then 61% want to remain in the UK. 

 

 

Are you talking about this Survation poll?

 

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/04/is-there-any-more-more-ridiculous-sight.html

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Justin Z
On 17/05/2019 at 11:38, JamboX2 said:

 

But you can't equate power and influence into wee pie charts and graphs. The nature of legal and political power is a hard to quantify thing. Holyrood is an extremely powerful institution. How many Acts of Parliament from Westminster affect Scotland these days? How many contain (Scotland) in brackets in the title? 

 

Very few. Think that's a very good indicator.

 

I just wrote a 5,000 word paper in which I took the position that Holyrood has essentially zero power, thanks to the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty, and Brexit has only laid that reality all the more bare. I could upload it if you want to be bored. :lol:

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Roxy Hearts
3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

As we have seen with the Brexit talks the CTA is no solution in of itself on the Irish border. The conditions of Scottish membership of the EU and the EU's relationship with Britain will define the border arrangements for Scotland. 

 

It won't be an open border, this is not in my view a good thing going forward or long term. Take a similar approach to Brexit with this, breaking things up is not a solution to our woes. In many ways it may exacerbate them.

 

I think the UK as a whole is reeling from austerity brought in by the Coalition in 2010. The fabric of the nation has been torn up. Independence to me, and the economics proposed around that, don't solve these problems. In many ways they maintain them. Political change is needed.

JX2 are you Ian Murray? Defend the indefensible at times! 

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jack D and coke
7 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

JX2 are you Ian Murray? Defend the indefensible at times! 

Jambo x2 used to be the poster I respected the most when it came to political stuff. Maybe it’s because he said stuff that agreed with my thinking at the the time I don’t know but every time I read anything he posts now I just think...labour drone. 

Sorry pal I mean no offence??

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Hasselhoff
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

James Kelly is as biased a poll analyst as Angus Robertson's new company, specifically formed to try and illustrate the movement from no to yes. 

 

The link certainly  backs you up on your assertion that voters in Scotland (specifically yes voters) are too stupid to notice the difference between leaving the UK and remaining in the UK and how they correlate to "do you want Scotland to be an independent country?"

 

There have been two votes both with the same questioning and consistent scoring. Look back a few pages on this thread and you will find a previous response from me to you with links. So Kelly's point is defeated as there is now a previous poll with the same question. Remain in Uk was +1 in second poll. 

Edited by Hasselhoff

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Roxy Hearts
8 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Jambo x2 used to be the poster I respected the most when it came to political stuff. Maybe it’s because he said stuff that agreed with my thinking at the the time I don’t know but every time I read anything he posts now I just think...labour drone. 

Sorry pal I mean no offence??

Same here. Too much political twisting in his posts now. 

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JamboX2
On 18/05/2019 at 18:25, coconut doug said:

Funnily enough the current arrangements and those expected to prevail after a No Deal Brexit are both described as an Open Border situation by the UK gov https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/travelling-in-the-common-travel-area-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/travelling-within-the-common-travel-area-and-the-associated-rights-of-british-and-irish-citi and Wikipaedias descriptioon of what the CTA is  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area 

They even made a committment for the fulture "Where required, domestic legislation and agreements will be updated to ensure that the CTA rights continue to have a clear legal basis."

 

   All the nonsense about border checks dreamt up by Miliband and others would apear to be just that but of course there is the previously raised problem that simple, common sense solutions to everyday problems would not somehow apply to Scotland and the Scots. Perhaps you have knowledge that in the event of Indy and Scotland remaining in the EU Scotland would be excluded from the CTA.

 

 The whole of the UK has been affected by austerity and the next chapter is the privatisation of the NHS. The good news is that Scotland has shown that it is more resilient in many areas. Taking action like increasing income Tax for for the higher earners and rejigging the Council Tax helps a bit to mediate against the worst effects. Conversely Both Labour and Tories voted for the most regressive budget i can ever remember giving the rich tax cuts They also voted to cut disabilty benefits.

  We have a different approach in Scotland which can of course be more effective if we were to have total control.

       Political change is needed it's just that afaics south of the border that means Farage and/or Bojo. IMO their ascendancy will demonstrate to all fair minded people in Scotland that we have different values to southern Britons generally.

 

If CTA was a solution to a frictionless border then there would be no Irish border problem as part of Brexit.

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JamboX2
17 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Jambo x2 used to be the poster I respected the most when it came to political stuff. Maybe it’s because he said stuff that agreed with my thinking at the the time I don’t know but every time I read anything he posts now I just think...labour drone. 

Sorry pal I mean no offence??

 

None taken. If you want indy go for it. I think many of the fatal flaws of the first referendum have not been solved. Hence I find it hard to justify supporting it now. 

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

If CTA was a solution to a frictionless border then there would be no Irish border problem as part of Brexit.

I'm not sure why we need a solution to a frictionless border but what you said was that you had changed your mind on Indy because previously you had 0 concerns about the border between Scotland and UK and now you do. 

 

I mentioned the CTA agreement because it addresses this issue and all citizens of UK and Ireland are able to travel freely between the countries and will still be able to even in the event of no deal. They will be able to get access to social housing, education, welfare, voting and lots of other things simply because they are citizens of either country. This agreement has only just been extended so the signatories are well aware of the current situation.

 As i previously suggested it may be that Scotland would not wish to enter this agreement or that the others would not want Scotland to join but that seems extremely unlikely to me.

   The Irish backstop issue is not about an individuals freedom of movement or their reciprocal rights in each other's country, 

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Smithee

FWIW I generally support independence, but I think we should reevaluate the relationship and friendship with England, Wales and NI in a much more positive way than people seem to assume would happen. 

They're our closest neighbours and friends and we have so much in common, so much history. I'd be happy with some sort of reciprocal deal, a customs union, a free movement deal etc, if the details were worked out properly.

 

The UK's brought us a lot, we shouldn't burn the house down, I just want the right to govern our own affairs. 

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coconut doug
10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

FWIW I generally support independence, but I think we should reevaluate the relationship and friendship with England, Wales and NI in a much more positive way than people seem to assume would happen. 

They're our closest neighbours and friends and we have so much in common, so much history. I'd be happy with some sort of reciprocal deal, a customs union, a free movement deal etc, if the details were worked out properly.

 

The UK's brought us a lot, we shouldn't burn the house down, I just want the right to govern our own affairs. 

Absolutely, we should also have the ability to co-operate with others on a whole range of issues. 

 

There are some people who constantly imply that if we become independent and remain in the EU we will no longer be able to trade with the rUK. They frequently tell us that the trade we do with RUK is 4 times the amount we do with the EU as if they were mutually exclusive. Some English people i have spoken to have taken the desire for Indy personally and feel rejected and actually imagine that because of our ungratefulness they will no longer have anything to do with us.

 

For me the priorities are Foreign policy and inequality but so many seem to want to characterise our desire to make things better as being anti-English. Others constantly go on about grievance politics but like you i recognise the benefits of the Union and the things we have in common. It's just that now i don't think the benefits of the union outweigh the costs anymore.

The UK though is an international laughing stock, we have been governed by the unembarrassable agents of vested interest for too long and although things could change i see no indication that it will, and consider much of the damage done to be irreparable.

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JamboX2
1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

I'm not sure why we need a solution to a frictionless border...

 

Because it would increase the cost of trade between Scotland and the UK and create a hard border if there was no customs union between the EU and UK. 

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frankblack
2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

None taken. If you want indy go for it. I think many of the fatal flaws of the first referendum have not been solved. Hence I find it hard to justify supporting it now. 

 

Correct.

 

The last referendum showed that the SNP were winging it, an example being the famous white paper, and they have not done anything since to convince the No voters to switch.

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Smithee
6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Correct.

 

The last referendum showed that the SNP were winging it, an example being the famous white paper, and they have not done anything since to convince the No voters to switch.

This is a drum you bang a lot Frank, and as I always say, they don't need to convince the No voters, just a small amount of them. There's a group that aren't as entrenched as most of us and if there is another referendum and they're very smart they'll put a lot of effort into targeting that group and have a very good chance. As I've said before, literally no one's going to waste their time trying to convince you!

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coconut doug
32 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Because it would increase the cost of trade between Scotland and the UK and create a hard border if there was no customs union between the EU and UK. 

A frictionless border would have no friction and wouldn't create a hard border. 

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Sraman
20 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Correct.

 

The last referendum showed that the SNP were winging it, an example being the famous white paper, and they have not done anything since to convince the No voters to switch.

 

Sounds like any other Government the World over. The white paper was the same as any other election manifesto from any political party the world over as well, if you take it as anything else you do your own intelligence a disservice, so they must be ready for it. What's your problem? Are you too wee, or too stupid, or too poor to take responsibility? That's all that would be asked of you at the end of the day, if Independence were to come.

 

All of the scaremongering stories from the UK parties are white elephants. 

 

It's difficult to take someone seriously when they hold up any parties election manifesto and try desperately to use it against them due to the predictions that didn't come true. It's difficult due to it being the easiest thing in the world for anyone, and I mean anyone, to do this to any political party, again, the world over.

 

The arguments aren't arguments at all, they are political tools designed to keep the shit chat going round in circles. They have Westminster/Oxbridge hallmarks stamped all over them. Politically effective for convincing "the people" that the only way they could believe the SNP is if they said Independence would be bad for us and our currency would be oatcakes.

 

 

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