How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[JamboX2]

10 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Does anybody know why the uk government is so against a federal arrangement? 

 

I don't think they are. But devolution is so far - asymmetric between parts of the UK and England has limited devolution.

 

Holyrood is extremely powerful. I suppose the adult question is how loose a union do people want? Personally I think we've got a good level of devolution. I'd just like to see bolder use of power.

[jack D and coke]

37 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I don't think they are. But devolution is so far - asymmetric between parts of the UK and England has limited devolution.

 

Holyrood is extremely powerful. I suppose the adult question is how loose a union do people want? Personally I think we've got a good level of devolution. I'd just like to see bolder use of power.

Look they tell us we get fortunes extra than everywhere else in the U.K. so let us run our own affairs, keep us altogether, save loads(apparently)keep their English voters happy who now hate Scotland and the precious union is preserved no?

End of SNP quite possibly too. Are they concerned we’ll make a good job of it or something?

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by jack D and coke

[Cade]

Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world, is the proud boast of the Unionist parties as they try to persuade Scotland that they fulfilled their promises to give the Scottish parliament meaningful extra powers. And it’s true that with a couple of minor caveats and quibbles, Scotland is indeed the proud owner of the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

Of course one of the quibbles is in the word devolved. There are self-governing territories quite close to home which have considerably more powerful parliaments than Scotland does. The British crown dependencies of the Isle of Man, Jersey, and Guernsey are independent in most respects. In fact they have what many in Scotland defined as devo max, control over everything except foreign affairs and defence. The British crown territories of Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, and the Cayman Islands, enjoy similar control over their own affairs. They control their own taxation policies, some of them have control over their own immigration policies. For the most part they are independent in all important respects, with the main exceptions of foreign affairs and defence.

The self-governing kingdoms of the Danish and Dutch crowns likewise enjoy a similar degree of autonomy. The Dutch kingdoms of Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, and Sint Maartin are self-governing islands in the Caribbean. They have close ties to the Netherlands which retains responsibility for defence and most foreign affairs, although the islands can and do represent themselves at an international level on occasion. The same is true for the Danish crown possessions of Greenland and the Faroe Islands. They are independent in almost all respects. Greenland was even able to leave the EEC.

But apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that’s OK then.

There are a few other countries which aren’t independent but which still enjoy considerably more autonomy than Scotland does. Puerto Rico is a country in free association with the United States. It has the right to self-determination, and has had several referendums on independence, none of which required the permission of Washington. Most recently it voted to become the 51st state of the Union. Guam, American Samoa, and the US Virgin Islands are other self-governing territories of the United States. Like Puerto Rico they have considerable control over their own financial affairs. French Polynesia and New Caledonia are French possessions in the South Pacific, they likewise have autonomy. New Caledonia is due to hold a referendum on independence.

But apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that’s OK then.

Well … being devolved means that at any time Scotland’s autonomy can be revoked or altered by the Westminster parliament. There is no constitutional guarantee of the permanency of Holyrood, despite the fact that the Unionist parties promised to ensure that would be the case. After winning the first independence referendum, they went back on their word. So since there is no constitutional guarantee of the status of Scotland, that means that every single federal territory in the world has more power than the Scottish parliament. The constitutional status of a constituent member of a federal state cannot be altered except by a change to the constitution, a single government can’t do that unless extra steps are taken, most commonly involving a referendum.

Each of the US states, the Canadian provinces, the German Länder, the Swiss Cantons, the states of Mexico, and the states of Australia have considerably more power than Scotland’s parliament does. Quebec controls its own immigration policy. The US states as well as the Canadian provinces and the Mexican states control vehicle registration. All have powers over taxation, including sales taxes. They have control over the natural resources exploited within their own territory. The US state of Alaska has an oil fund which it periodically disburses to state residents as a financial windfall. The constituent states of the Federated States of Micronesia, Yap, Chuuk, Pohnpei, and Kosrae even have the power to represent themselves independently on an international level. Tiny wee islands in the Pacific, but they’re more powerful than Scotland is.

So apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Newfoundland, and the rest of the Canadian provinces, Alaska, Rhode Island, Hawaii, and the rest of the states of the USA, Yucatan, Sonora, Leon, and the other states of Mexico, Berne, Grisons, Aargau, Schwyz, and the other cantons of Switzerland, Bavaria, Baden-Wurtemberg, Schleswig-Holstein and the other Länder of Germany, Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania, Yap, Chuuk, Pohnpei, and Kosrae, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that’s OK then.

But … there are some other countries, territories, and regions which have a measure of self-government and like Scotland are not constituent parts of federal states. Gagauzia is a self governing territory of Turkish speaking Orthodox Christians which is a constituent part of Moldova, which isn’t a federal state, but Gagauz autonomy is written into the Moldovan constitution and can’t be altered by a Moldovan government without the consent of the Gagauz parliament. Which is more than can be said for Scotland.

Then there are countries and territories which like Scotland are actually devolved.  Nunavut was carved out of the North West Territories as an autonomous territory for Canada’s Inuit people. The new territory was named Nunavut, which in Inuktitut, the Inuit language, means “Has more devolution than Scotland”. As with the other territories of Canada, Yukon and the remaining part of the North West Territories, the Federal government is ensuring that Nunavut has control of its own mineral and oil and gas resources. Washington DC and the Federal District of Mexico City are not federal states in their respective countries, but each enjoys most of the powers enjoyed by states. The Northern Territory of Australia likewise enjoys many of the same powers that the fully fledged Australian states possess although it enjoys these powers as devolved powers from the Federal government which retains the right to legislate on its behalf.

Catalonia, Galicia, the Basque Country and the Canary Islands are autonomous communities in Spain. Each has control over its own broadcasting, something not allowed to Scotland. The Basque Country raises all taxes within its territory and is responsible for remitting part of the receipts to Madrid to cover its share of the costs of the Spanish state. Far more control than Scotland has.

Madeira and the Azores are autonomous parts of Portugal. They have control over immigration and residency policy, control over their marine economic zones, and control over oil and mineral rights as well as fishing.

So apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Newfoundland, and the rest of the Canadian provinces, Alaska, Rhode Island, Hawaii, and the rest of the states of the USA, Yucatan, Sonora, Leon, and the other states of Mexico, Berne, Grisons, Aargau, Schwyz, and the other cantons of Switzerland, Bavaria, Baden-Wurtemberg, Schleswig-Holstein and the other Länder of Germany, Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania, Yap, Chuuk, Pohnpei, and Kosrae, Gagauzia, Catalonia, the Basque Country, Galicia, the Canary Islands, the Azores, Madeira, Washington DC, the Districto Federal de Mexico, Yukon, Nunavut, the North West Territories, and the Northern Territory of Australia, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

So that’s OK then.

[Space Mackerel]

37 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I don't think they are. But devolution is so far - asymmetric between parts of the UK and England has limited devolution.

 

Holyrood is extremely powerful. I suppose the adult question is how loose a union do people want? Personally I think we've got a good level of devolution. I'd just like to see bolder use of power.

 

 

 

There is no appetite for Federalism in the UK.

 

We have heard it all before, remember G Brown (who was just a backbench MP then) 

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron-ed-miliband-nick-4265992

 

Some quotes:

 

“But they want a promise of change they can trust – without the risks and uncertainties of an irreversible separation. I believe they are saying to us, ‘Give us the guarantees of change and with
these guarantees, we can vote for a strong Scottish Parliament within the UK’.

 

“So let us lock in three guarantees that will deliver the best deal for a stronger Scottish Parliament
within the United Kingdom. The guarantees that we now have pave the way to the future – a great
Scotland as a driving, successful and vibrant nation playing its full part in Great Britain.

 

Tell the board how much the devolved nations played in the Brexit process?

 

 

 

[EastSideJambo]

On 18/09/2018 at 20:11, Ricardo Shillyshally said:

The SNP need to start convincing people's they'd be better off. Not just "trust us, it will be fine".

 

Their constant moaning about the Tories (they hardly ever call them conservatives) only preaches to the converted.

 

Like most folk, my vote would not change.

Sturgeon despises the Conservative Party - "Tories" as she brands them as you rightly state in order to somehow demonise them, which only resonates with those already on the train. To others it just seems a bit childish 

 

Sturgeon and co are fanatics who'll bang the drum for Independence regardless of whether there was overwhelming evidence that Scotland would suffer under such circumstances.  This is a lifetimes work for that crowd 

 

Unfortunately they've managed to be in prominence in this country for the last 10 years and have been a catastrophic failure in that time. Alas they can simply point the finger towards the "Tory" government as the bad guys and that will resonate with those who blindly follow. In Government in Scotland but accountable for nothing. 

 

Scottish electorate need to wake up to the inadequacies of the SNP administration in Holyrood and remove them from office. That's the only way this neverendum gets pushed further from the agenda. 

 

Just for the avoidance of any lingering doubt - I'd vote No again. 

[doctor jambo]

I was a solid "no" voter" in the last ref.

That was due to the fact I am not into diminishing a country.

the currency issue was important and not answered- I could have accepted the euro BUT not at the risk of losing 10% or so of my savings as the currency changed, or a drop in the value of my assets ( house etc) that I have worked really hard to accrue.

The retention of the monarchy was not to my liking- I could have voted for a  Scottish republic.

 

Now however, Brexit has done most of the above and I would possibly vote "yes"  to stay in the EU for exactly the same reasons.

 

IF the proposal would be for switch to the Euro, free movement of people and stay in the EU and ditch the monarchy  I'd definitely vote YES

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Look they tell us we get fortunes extra than everywhere else in the U.K. so let us run our own affairs, keep us altogether, save loads(apparently)keep their English voters happy who now hate Scotland and the precious union is preserved no?

End of SNP quite possibly too. Are they concerned we’ll make a good job of it or something?

 

 

From living down here a few months I can honestly say I've encounteted no one who hates Scots. 

 

No one - honestly - is all that bothered. The line I hear often is "you've got the powers, go and use them". Which, given the SNP don't give a monkey's on what Wales does I think is pretty fair cop.

[Boris]

33 minutes ago, EastSideJambo said:

Sturgeon despises the Conservative Party - "Tories" as she brands them as you rightly state in order to somehow demonise them, which only resonates with those already on the train. To others it just seems a bit childish 

 

You do realise that Tories call themselves Tories?  If you see it as a pejorative now, then maybe you should ask yourself why?

 

Quote

 

Sturgeon and co are fanatics who'll bang the drum for Independence regardless of whether there was overwhelming evidence that Scotland would suffer under such circumstances.  This is a lifetimes work for that crowd 

 

SNP advocating independence.  Mind. Blown.

 

Quote

 

Unfortunately they've managed to be in prominence in this country for the last 10 years and have been a catastrophic failure in that time. Alas they can simply point the finger towards the "Tory" government as the bad guys and that will resonate with those who blindly follow. In Government in Scotland but accountable for nothing. 

 

So catastrophic that the electorate still returns them in huge numbers, winning every ecletion to Holyrood and Westminster?

 

Regards pointing at Westminster, well, that seems to resonate, as you say, so why do you think that is?

 

Quote

 

Scottish electorate need to wake up to the inadequacies of the SNP administration in Holyrood and remove them from office. That's the only way this neverendum gets pushed further from the agenda. 

 

Just for the avoidance of any lingering doubt - I'd vote No again. 

 

Ah, the electorate is to blame.  Too stupid are they?  I'm tempted to say that sounds like typical Conservative and Unionist thinking!

Edited September 20, 2018 by Boris

[doctor jambo]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

You do realise that Tories call themselves Tories?  If you see it as a pejorative now, then maybe you should ask yourself why?

 

 

SNP advocating independence.  Mind. Blown.

 

 

So catastrophic that the electorate still returns them in huge numbers, winning every ecletion to Holyrood and Westminster?

 

Regards pointing at Westminster, well, that seems to resonate, as you say, so why do you think that is?

 

 

Ah, the electorate is to blame.  Too stupid are they?  I'm tempted to say that sounds like typical Conservative and Unionist thinking!

the electorate ARE stupid Boris

[EastSideJambo]

13 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

the electorate ARE stupid Boris

Yip 

[jack D and coke]

23 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

From living down here a few months I can honestly say I've encounteted no one who hates Scots. 

 

No one - honestly - is all that bothered. The line I hear often is "you've got the powers, go and use them". Which, given the SNP don't give a monkey's on what Wales does I think is pretty fair cop.

No one hates the English up here either, hate was maybe the wrong choice of word there. I worked in England for over 10 years and have great pals all over. 

You do ocassionally come across a welt whenever politics gets raised just the same as you up here I may add. 

You didn’t really answer my question though as to why they don’t want to look at a federal solution. I’m genuinely interested in what you think you’re a very politically switched on poster. 

[Boris]

19 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

the electorate ARE stupid Boris

 

5 minutes ago, EastSideJambo said:

Yip 

 

[EastSideJambo]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

So do I chum 

[Cruyff Turn]

I think what a lot of Unionists are failing to grasp here is that the SNP are the biggest Party in Scotland in terms of membership by some distance , and the 2nd biggest Party in the whole of the UK.

 

The core support for Independence is never ever ever going to go away. There are also a lot of people in Scotland who support Independence but don’t support the SNP, people like myself, there are others who are Socialists, Green types etc..

 

 Polls and Surveys also show that it is the older generation who are the deciders on whether we stay in the Union or not and let’s face it, old folk are a dying breed. The Polls and Surveys also clearly show it is the younger generations who support Independence. If you don’t believe that I’m sure you could find those figures on the website of the BBC’s favourite poll Professor John Curtice.

 

So the SNP are going to be the biggest Party at Holyrood for decades upon decades until Scotland gets either one of two things - Independence or Federalism.

It will take a Tory/Labour/Liberal whatever coalition to unseat the SNP in Holyrood and even then it’s going to be very difficult for any coalition to Govern because the SNP will be the largest Party and will therefore make it very difficult. The likelihood hood of either Labour or the Lib Dem’s getting into bed with the Tories in Scotland is very slim to an impossibility.

 

This is question is going to be around until it is solved either through Federalism, Independence or the UK dissolves Devolution and decides to rule with an iron fist. The latter is probably not going to happen just in case you got your hopes up.

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Good post. 

 

I'd also add that many supporters of Independence, myself included, would not be advocating for another referendum if some of the promises made pre-2014 were actually kept.  Staying in EU, Extensive new powers, Renewables, Carbon capture, Public sector jobs, Shipbuilding, EVEL.

 

The whole premise of the last referendum was effectively ran on falsehoods and lies.

Yeah I’d go along with that. I voted Yes but I’m not spoiling for another either soon or ever tbh. We had one, it was a No and you have to get on with it. However we were told the only way to remain in the EU was with a No. Thats a big change if you were a remainer and feel strongly about remaining part of it. If enough people want another one then that’s how it works. I’m of the opinion we are in a union and not owned by England and we have a right to demand to change the agreement at any time if enough people want it. 

[Dawnrazor]

23 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

....... let’s face it, old folk are a dying breed.

I've never been able to get my head around this argument, young people get older, thier attitudes change, old are not "a dying breed" at all, "old folk" are increasing I'm number annually as life expectancy increaces, you make it sound like all of a sudden anyone older than 60 will dissappear and Scotland will be populated by 18 to 59 year old independence voters!!! 

This is a daft argument imo. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Dawnrazor

[Cruyff Turn]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I've never been able to get my head around this argument, young people get older, thier attitudes change, old are not "a dying breed" at all, "old folk" are increasing I'm number annually as life expectancy increaces, you make it sound like all of a sudden anyone older than 60 will dissappear and Scotland will be populated by 18 to 59 year old independence voters!!! 

This is a daft argument imo. 

It wasn’t an argument. It’s a well known fact people don’t generally live for over 100 years. 

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

It wasn’t an argument. It’s a well known fact people don’t generally live for over 100 years. 

It's an argument SNP supporters put forward regularly, the SNP are not going to have less elderly people voting against them in future they're going to have more. 

It doesn't matter if people don't live past 100, the point is there is going to be more not less people in their 50/60/70/80' and 90's who are less likely to vote for the SNP, they are also much more likely to vote, the problem is just going to get begger not lessen. 

[doctor jambo]

25 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Good post. 

 

I'd also add that many supporters of Independence, myself included, would not be advocating for another referendum if some of the promises made pre-2014 were actually kept.  Staying in EU, Extensive new powers, Renewables, Carbon capture, Public sector jobs, Shipbuilding, EVEL.

 

The whole premise of the last referendum was effectively ran on falsehoods and lies.

That's referenda for you.

It was incredibly similar to the BREXIT one

full of waffle, promises, downright lies on both sides and xenophobia

 

[Hugh Phamism]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's an argument SNP supporters put forward regularly, the SNP are not going to have less elderly people voting against them in future they're going to have more. 

It doesn't matter if people don't live past 100, the point is there is going to be more not less people in their 50/60/70/80' and 90's who are less likely to vote for the SNP, they are also much more likely to vote, the problem is just going to get begger not lessen. 

 

You do realise that you don't automatically become a NO voter when your reach the age of 50...

[doctor jambo]

15 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

It wasn’t an argument. It’s a well known fact people don’t generally live for over 100 years. 

THink the point is though that people's political leanings change as they get older- they become less idealistic and more fretful of change.

The aging population may reduce the likelihood of independence in future

[Thunderstruck]

9 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

It does.

 

It proves that Ireland can effectively grow their economy because they have the powers to do that where as Scotland does not despite us having a lot more going for us than Ireland does. We have lower unemployment in Scotland and a bigger workforce.

 

Ireland spends 3000 more per head on public services than Scotland does.

 

It is what it is. Accept it, don’t try and spin a negative out of it. It’s irrelevant where Ireland spends their dough. If Scotland had Ireland’s GDP we’d be running at a surplus. Which is entirely feasible if we had the same economic powers. 

 

Could you tell us a little of the foundations of the Irish economic model. 

 

In particular, the impact of the very low Corporation Tax, Tax Inversions, the relocation of Intellectual Property and the relocation of aircraft leasing company balance sheets. 

 

What opportunities are there for Scotland to follow suit?

[Cruyff Turn]

10 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah I’d go along with that. I voted Yes but I’m not spoiling for another either soon or ever tbh. We had one, it was a No and you have to get on with it. However we were told the only way to remain in the EU was with a No. Thats a big change if you were a remainer and feel strongly about remaining part of it. If enough people want another one then that’s how it works. I’m of the opinion we are in a union and not owned by England and we have a right to demand to change the agreement at any time if enough people want it. 

It’s about Democracy as well.

 

A Union is meant to be an equal Partnership. Scotland didn’t want a Referendum on the EU. The overwhelming majority of our MP’s, who we elected, voted against having one. Then the majority of Scots voted against leaving.  To deal with that the UK government should have been bipartisan on EU negotiations and catered to the different demographics of each Country on an individual case. 

 

However, it has become what one bunch of Tories think is best over another group of Tories thinks is best, all in their own self interest. In doing so they have run roughshod over the Devolution settlement and the Good Friday Agreement, two conventions which were agreed upon by the citizens of N.I and Scotland in Referendums. 

 

So the UK government has overridden 3 or 4 levels of Democratic outcomes in Scotland to force through their own backbencher beliefs.

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, Hugh Phamism said:

 

You do realise that you don't automatically become a NO voter when your reach the age of 50...

Of I do. 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

It’s about Democracy as well.

 

A Union is meant to be an equal Partnership. Scotland didn’t want a Referendum on the EU. The overwhelming majority of our MP’s, who we elected, voted against having one. Then the majority of Scots voted against leaving.  To deal with that the UK government should have been bipartisan on EU negotiations and catered to the different demographics of each Country on an individual case. 

 

However, it has become what one bunch of Tories think is best over another group of Tories thinks is best, all in their own self interest. In doing so they have run roughshod over the Devolution settlement and the Good Friday Agreement, two conventions which were agreed upon by the citizens of N.I and Scotland in Referendums. 

 

So the UK government has overridden 3 or 4 levels of Democratic outcomes in Scotland to force through their own backbencher beliefs.

Yep and people like Rees Mogg who would get run back over the border normally never mind win any votes up here telling us we can have another referendum when they say so. 

Doesn’t make it feel like a union in any way shape or form to me. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by jack D and coke

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, EastSideJambo said:

Sturgeon despises the Conservative Party - "Tories" as she brands them as you rightly state in order to somehow demonise them, which only resonates with those already on the train. To others it just seems a bit childish

 

 

You omitted her frequent use of the adjective “hated” in front of “Tories”. 

 

[Thunderstruck]

19 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Agree with the EU situation which is especially true for European citizens residing in Scotland.  Imagine being told to vote No to Independence to remain within the EU, and then only a couple of years facing the possibility of being removed from the UK thanks to Brexit.  It's unfair on the 100k+ citizens who have chosen Scotland to be their permanent home.

 

 

 

Are they to be forcibly repatriated? When was that decided?

[Cruyff Turn]

5 minutes ago, Hugh Phamism said:

 

You do realise that you don't automatically become a NO voter when your reach the age of 50...

Most over 50 yr olds I know have changed from No to Yes

5 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

THink the point is though that people's political leanings change as they get older- they become less idealistic and more fretful of change.

The aging population may reduce the likelihood of independence in future

It works both ways I’d imagine.

4 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Could you tell us a little of the foundations of the Irish economic model. 

 

In particular, the impact of the very low Corporation Tax, Tax Inversions, the relocation of Intellectual Property and the relocation of aircraft leasing company balance sheets. 

 

What opportunities are there for Scotland to follow suit?

I don’t really care about the ins and outs of the Irish model. That’s not the point. The point was an example of an Independent Country of a similar size in a similar geographical area being able to grow their economy because they have the powers to do so.

 

What is good for Ireland, Norway, Denmark or whoever might not necessarily be good for Scotland but the fact that they can use all powers available to them puts them at a significant advantage to us.

 

Also, it’s not just about economics. It’s about Democracy, being able to negotiate our own trade, being able to decide what we spend on defence or which middle eastern country gets blown up next, or whether we want Nuclear Missles. Etc etc...

 

These are decisions those countries can make which we cannot.

[doctor jambo]

6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Yep and people like Rees Mogg who would get run back over the border normally never mind win any votes up here telling us we can have another referendum when they say so. 

Doesn’t make it feel like a union in any way shape or form to me. 

Rees Mogg and his ilk have no power over whether we can hold a referendum

None at all

Its also not much of a union if one part of it keeps threatening to leave

[EastSideJambo]

8 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

You omitted her frequent use of the adjective “hated” in front of “Tories”. 

 

You're quite right. Apologies for my oversight. She really is a repulsive individual 

[EastSideJambo]

Any Snips got any views on how Sturgeon and Mackay have dealt with this Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd loan 

 

Doesn't look terribly transparent. A firm owned by a Scottish Government Economic Adviser who just so happens to be resident in Monaco 

[Thunderstruck]

43 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Good post. 

 

I'd also add that many supporters of Independence, myself included, would not be advocating for another referendum if some of the promises made pre-2014 were actually kept.  Staying in EU, Extensive new powers, Renewables, Carbon capture, Public sector jobs, Shipbuilding, EVEL.

 

The whole premise of the last referendum was effectively ran on falsehoods and lies.

 

Can we assume that you haven’t heard of the Smith Commission or the post-referendum transfer of powers to Holyrood and the legislation enabling the transfer.  

 

Shipbuilding - Ships are coming out of the yard on a regular basis and the next type are under production. The order book is full. What happens to that shipbuilding and other defence-related industry if Scotland leaves the U.K.? Any plans for filling the gap?

[doctor jambo]

3 minutes ago, EastSideJambo said:

Any Snips got any views on how Sturgeon and Mackay have dealt with this Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd loan 

 

Doesn't look terribly transparent. A firm owned by a Scottish Government Economic Adviser who just so happens to be resident in Monaco 

Not really much to do with the thread topic though

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, EastSideJambo said:

Any Snips got any views on how Sturgeon and Mackay have dealt with this Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd loan 

 

Doesn't look terribly transparent. A firm owned by a Scottish Government Economic Adviser who just so happens to be resident in Monaco 

 

I’m still waiting for the 140 Westminster paedo files May, when Home Secretary, lost a few years ago to turn up first. 

[Space Mackerel]

Scotland, according to Unionists, the ONLY COUNTRY in the entire WORLD which is unable to run its own affairs successfully. 

 

Utter laughable nonsense. 

[Thunderstruck]

10 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

 

I don’t really care about the ins and outs of the Irish model. That’s not the point. 

 

It is the point - If you are going to cite comparisons, you can’t cherry-pick just the bits that suit your case. 

[Dawnrazor]

39 minutes ago, Hugh Phamism said:

 

You do realise that you don't automatically become a NO voter when your reach the age of 50...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

[jack D and coke]

19 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Rees Mogg and his ilk have no power over whether we can hold a referendum

None at all

Its also not much of a union if one part of it keeps threatening to leave

Yeah I agree but it’s also not much of one where some parts of it are completely ignored in negotiations in something so huge as brexit. It’s not like we’ve constantly been threatening to leave. We’ve had one referendum in over 300 years. 

[pcw1874]

Yes, always.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, EastSideJambo said:

So do I chum 

 

Apart from the demos.  Cos they is fick?

 

[EastSideJambo]

17 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I’m still waiting for the 140 Westminster paedo files May, when Home Secretary, lost a few years ago to turn up first. 

Quite right too. In the meantime are we ok to let the SNP be answerable to nobody and take responsibility for nothing? 

[Hugh Phamism]

 

6 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

One off poll in 2015. Need to see the same poll when everyone is 5 - 10 years older.

 

[EastSideJambo]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Apart from the demos.  Cos they is fick?

 

Haha. The Scottish electorate are marvellous.  People who'd never voted Conservative in their lives voted that way to oust the likes of Tasmina Ahmed-Sheik. Pete Wishart and that clown in Fife with a majority of 2 will feel the same action at next election 

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, EastSideJambo said:

Quite right too. In the meantime are we ok to let the SNP be answerable to nobody and take responsibility for nothing? 

 

But they are answerable to someone.  The electorate (those thick people you mentioned earlier).

 

They are also open to scrutiny from parliament.  Like the P.1 testing they were defeated on yesterday.

 

It's not like we are living in a dictatorship...

[Dawnrazor]

5 minutes ago, Hugh Phamism said:

 

 

One off poll in 2015. Need to see the same poll when everyone is 5 - 10 years older.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Hugh Phamism said:

 

 

One off poll in 2015. Need to see the same poll when everyone is 5 - 10 years older.

 

Do you think the figures would shift much? 

[Cruyff Turn]

15 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

It is the point - If you are going to cite comparisons, you can’t cherry-pick just the bits that suit your case. 

That’s absurd. We sell different things and provide different services. Our economies depend on different sizes of public and private sector finances. Our tax system will be completely different. We will have different strategies on different areas such as defence, infrastructure... etc

 

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

I've never been able to get my head around this argument, young people get older, thier attitudes change, old are not "a dying breed" at all, "old folk" are increasing I'm number annually as life expectancy increaces, you make it sound like all of a sudden anyone older than 60 will dissappear and Scotland will be populated by 18 to 59 year old independence voters!!! 

This is a daft argument imo. 

 

I think what he means are the current older people who voted overwhelmingly against independence will die off and the new crop of older people will be the ones that are in favour of independence. Of course, that all depends on whether attitudes change with age or whether it's a genuine generational thing. 

 

On another note, I can't believe folk are still having the same arguments about the economy. Ffs, Scotland could survive as an independent country, it might be a bit worse off or better but at the end of the day it won't become Somalia and it won't become Monaco. Absolutely tedious these arguments. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by AlphonseCapone

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, EastSideJambo said:

Haha. The Scottish electorate are marvellous.  People who'd never voted Conservative in their lives voted that way to oust the likes of Tasmina Ahmed-Sheik. Pete Wishart and that clown in Fife with a majority of 2 will feel the same action at next election 

 

Yeah, that was funny that.  The Tories at the Westminster election sold the Scottish electorate one policy - no to another referendum.  Those that way inclined took the bait, even although this was a Westminster election, not a Holyrood one.  Still trounced in Scotland though.

 

Still, those who elected those Tories have the government they deserve.

 

Maybe you were correct when you said that the electorate were thick, because to me it looks like the Tories duped them at the last Westminster election in certain constituencies, but then again I suspect it is less support for the Tories, more anti-referendum, and the Tories happily cashed in on that. 

 

(I don't think that the electorate are thick, for the record.)

[Hugh Phamism]

6 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

 

Do you think the figures would shift much? 

4 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I think what he means are the current older people who voted overwhelmingly against independence will die off and the new crop of older people will be the ones that are in favour of independence. Of course, that all depends on whether attitudes change with age or whether it's a genuine generational thing. 

 

Yip. That was also my point. Only time will tell.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Hugh Phamism said:

 

Yip. That was also my point. Only time will tell.

 

I accept your point, but I'm really just going off previous voting trends where the older you get the more right you tend to vote! 

I understand that that is in General Elections and not in Independence referendum however. 

I don't personally think there will be a paradigm shift in the trend.