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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?


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AlphonseCapone
On 24/05/2019 at 16:26, Stephen Muddie said:

A Yes vote in any future ScotRef wouldn't necessarily mean independence. Sturgeon can't call for a re-vote on one referendum whilst denying a re-vote on another. I'm for Scottish Independence but don't want referenda ad infinitum, which is what the SNP have effectively enabled by being supporters of a EU re-vote. There would be absolutely NOTHING to stop UK Unionists demanding a re-vote, and if they won, nothing to stop pro-Indy Scots from demanding a re-re-vote.

I would vote No if it meant remaining in the EU.

 

I know it's the SNP promoting this and they are the leading independence group, but I don't think any major constitutional decision should be a given under independence, they should be voted on (EU, monarchy).

 

On 25/05/2019 at 10:39, Class of 75 said:

About 10 years ago. 

 

It was mooted, and is a fringe opinion btw, in the context of a United Ireland, and that there may be financial but more importantly, political benefits (helping make unionists in the North feel more comfortable), but there is zero chance it would happen. Two seconds speaking to Irish people will tell you that. 

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Class of 75
3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Really, the took the Ukip vote and seat and the votes the Tories lost from the last time. The SNP are up 9% and one seat, but you're right enough. Shite!!!

 

 

I understand the Libdems view of both union membership, indy supporting leave voters, an indy Scotland as a sovereign state member of the EU. But brexit voting no voters, karma awaits these traitors.

Fair enough but I could say the same of those who vote against the British Union, but you do make a good point. Me too I understand Sillars point of view but do not understand Sturgeons view of out of British Union in EU.  Mind you cynically I could argue she wants to remain in EU to pick up the short fall when out of Union 

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Class of 75
3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I'd say they did this time. Remain pro Unionists would have voted Libdem. Can you say the same for Labour or the brexit party?

Yes. Not sure about where Labour stand on Brexit so could be seen either way. 

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Class of 75
3 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:

In Scotland, it was a vote for Indy as well as brexit and both were consistent with previous votes here. Remain approx 60%, pro-UK approx 54%

 

 

Separate issue and the SNP have admitted that about a third of those who voted for them were leavers, I know that sounds mad. Also there are voters who would have voted SNP but do not want to leave the UK. They want to remain in UK but in Europe. Sorry mate I have reread your post and agree, please accept my apologies 

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Class of 75
2 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I know it's the SNP promoting this and they are the leading independence group, but I don't think any major constitutional decision should be a given under independence, they should be voted on (EU, monarchy).

 

 

It was mooted, and is a fringe opinion btw, in the context of a United Ireland, and that there may be financial but more importantly, political benefits (helping make unionists in the North feel more comfortable), but there is zero chance it would happen. Two seconds speaking to Irish people will tell you that. 

Not as fringe as it appears. It is a topic of serious consideration although granted it depends on a United Ireland.

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coconut doug
6 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:

In Scotland, it was a vote for Indy as well as brexit and both were consistent with previous votes here. Remain approx 60%, pro-UK approx 54%

 

 

 

Wait a minute! Were you not the poster who very recently told us that Survation were the most accurate pollsters and that their most recent polls showed Indy support at 39% and 40%? Maybe you can explain what has caused this recent significant surge in support for Indy parties.

 

The support for Remain parties is 61.8% , very similar to the referendum. This assumes that all Labour and Tory voters supported leave. Problem for me is that Brexit's 15% comes from UKIP9% and Tories6%, i cant see any significant crossovers from other parties and the numbers add up pretty well. You must be of an opinion that the 12% who who voted Tory are leavers to. I wonder why they just did not vote Brexit like they did in higher numbers across the UK. Could it be that many of them are in fact not leavers and what we have seen is an increase in the Indy vote and the Remain vote?

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frankblack
12 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Wait a minute! Were you not the poster who very recently told us that Survation were the most accurate pollsters and that their most recent polls showed Indy support at 39% and 40%? Maybe you can explain what has caused this recent significant surge in support for Indy parties.

 

The support for Remain parties is 61.8% , very similar to the referendum. This assumes that all Labour and Tory voters supported leave. Problem for me is that Brexit's 15% comes from UKIP9% and Tories6%, i cant see any significant crossovers from other parties and the numbers add up pretty well. You must be of an opinion that the 12% who who voted Tory are leavers to. I wonder why they just did not vote Brexit like they did in higher numbers across the UK. Could it be that many of them are in fact not leavers and what we have seen is an increase in the Indy vote and the Remain vote?

 

Did I not read that a big chunk of Leave voters were previous SNP voters too, so any attempt to make an Indy case from these results is pointless?

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coconut doug
3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Did I not read that a big chunk of Leave voters were previous SNP voters too, so any attempt to make an Indy case from these results is pointless?

Are you saying that a big chunk of last night's SNP vote was delivered by leavers or are you talking about something that may have happened in the past?

 

BTW i'm not making an Indy case just reinterpreting somebody else's version of events.

 

How are you getting on answering my previous questions and requests to support your claims with facts or reasoned argument?

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frankblack
3 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Are you saying that a big chunk of last night's SNP vote was delivered by leavers or are you talking about something that may have happened in the past?

 

BTW i'm not making an Indy case just reinterpreting somebody else's version of events.

 

I'm just saying you can't put the numbers together from the votes for different parties and say it points one way or the other at Indy or who will win the next general election.

 

3 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

How are you getting on answering my previous questions and requests to support your claims with facts or reasoned argument?

 

I don't know what you are talking about.  Anything I didn't reply to was already covered by subsequent posters, as you got torn a new one.

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coconut doug
1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

I'm just saying you can't put the numbers together from the votes for different parties and say it points one way or the other at Indy or who will win the next general election.

Here's what you said only 2 weeks ago.

 People opposed to leaving the EU will never vote for leaving the rest of the UK as the latter will have a more prominent effect on their financial stability.

And now you are suggesting that a "big chunk of leave supporters" are voting for the SNP which one is it?

 

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

 

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frankblack
2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Here's what you said only 2 weeks ago.

 People opposed to leaving the EU will never vote for leaving the rest of the UK as the latter will have a more prominent effect on their financial stability.

And now you are suggesting that a "big chunk of leave supporters" are voting for the SNP which one is it?

 

 

 

A protest vote against Brexit for the SNP does not mean the same people would vote to leave the UK.  It means it is more likely to count than a vote for Labour or the Greens (against Brexit).

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8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

A protest vote against Brexit for the SNP does not mean the same people would vote to leave the UK.  It means it is more likely to count than a vote for Labour or the Greens (against Brexit).

I think the Libdems vote blows your opinion straight to hell.

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coconut doug
1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

A protest vote against Brexit for the SNP does not mean the same people would vote to leave the UK.  It means it is more likely to count than a vote for Labour or the Greens (against Brexit).

 

So the SNP vote last night was in part a protest vote. What about the leave voting SNP voters from previous elections you mentioned, are they still voting SNP as part of their protest or was that not a protest at all? 

 Do you think this protest vote came from people who normally vote for other parties? Where did the SNP's extra votes come from? It must have been a Unionist party and realistically the Labour Party. 

Why did they not vote Libdem as they did in RUK instead of undermining their precious union by voting Snp? 

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coconut doug
29 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

 

 

I don't know what you are talking about.  Anything I didn't reply to was already covered by subsequent posters, as you got torn a new one.

Here's my request from our last conversation. You did not reply.  You offered a link by way of explanation and i responded"It says nothing. Do you remember when you asked me to read your last link then had to apologise for your incorrect assertion. Go on answer my question, use your own words to explain your thinking. You were telling us about how Scotland's exchange rate would tank because of its credit rating and i asked you how that works. 

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frankblack
31 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

So the SNP vote last night was in part a protest vote. What about the leave voting SNP voters from previous elections you mentioned, are they still voting SNP as part of their protest or was that not a protest at all? 

 Do you think this protest vote came from people who normally vote for other parties? Where did the SNP's extra votes come from? It must have been a Unionist party and realistically the Labour Party. 

Why did they not vote Libdem as they did in RUK instead of undermining their precious union by voting Snp? 

 

You can't achieve independence from the European Elections, mate.  Your argument is irrelevant.

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frankblack
18 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Here's my request from our last conversation. You did not reply.  You offered a link by way of explanation and i responded"It says nothing. Do you remember when you asked me to read your last link then had to apologise for your incorrect assertion. Go on answer my question, use your own words to explain your thinking. You were telling us about how Scotland's exchange rate would tank because of its credit rating and i asked you how that works. 

 

Dear me.  You want trawl back a week ago to keep an argument going, where you dodged my post and didn't analyse the content along with previous posts.

 

Go back a few pages and find my answers as I have better things to do while you keep deflecting.

 

This topic was covered and fully answered, and you are just being ignorant.

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Harry Potter
25 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Dear me.  You want trawl back a week ago to keep an argument going, where you dodged my post and didn't analyse the content along with previous posts.

 

Go back a few pages and find my answers as I have better things to do while you keep deflecting.

 

This topic was covered and fully answered, and you are just being ignorant.

Another indy ref probs at a cost of 25million, wheres that coming from.

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Dear me.  You want trawl back a week ago to keep an argument going, where you dodged my post and didn't analyse the content along with previous posts.

 

Go back a few pages and find my answers as I have better things to do while you keep deflecting.

 

This topic was covered and fully answered, and you are just being ignorant.

That's because you dont answer the question and always try to deflect.

 

You did not answer the question at all so just as a one off why dont you explain to us the relationship between currency values and credit ratings and how that would impact on an independent Scotland?  If you answered it should be easy enough to copy and paste.

What happened to your respect agenda? In what way am i "being ignorant"? 

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47 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Another indy ref probs at a cost of 25million, wheres that coming from.

The 350 million a week should cover it.

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frankblack
13 hours ago, coconut doug said:

That's because you dont answer the question and always try to deflect.

 

You did not answer the question at all so just as a one off why dont you explain to us the relationship between currency values and credit ratings and how that would impact on an independent Scotland?  If you answered it should be easy enough to copy and paste.

What happened to your respect agenda? In what way am i "being ignorant"? 

 

I give up.  Trying to debate with you is like banging my head off a wall.

 

I didn't copy and paste the article because providing a link is the correct way to attribute sources.

 

Everything was in that article to answer the question.  The fact you don't like it and want to go round in circles is your problem not mine, and I am not going to reply further on this as you had your chance a week ago.

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manaliveits105

SNP falling into same trap as labour and reading all the wrong signs

the silent majority many of whom didn’t vote in that farce will crush Krankie

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The SNP asked for those not in favour of independence to back them as a protest against Brexit. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/scotland/nicola-sturgeon-tells-scots-vote-for-snp-even-if-youre-against-independence/amp/

 

Then turned around and said it was a vote share which showed support for independence.

 

I'm not shocked. They've done this often. But it'll all be decided in due course. There won't be a section 30 order until after the next Holyrood elections because there are huge issues to be resolved before then. An independence referendum and negotiations to break up the UK whilst negotiating the future relationship between the UK and EU would derail everything else government does on both side of Hadrian's Wall. 

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The ongoing fiasco of Brexit has shown us very a bad example of democracy at work. The divisions it has created in our society are hurtful and dangerous and will remain for decades to come. Basically little more than a third of our voting public has made this monumental decision to leave the EU. I voted remain but the decision should have been honoured by now. If/when we have indy ref 2 we need to have learned from this disaster. We have the technology and there need be no reason why we cannot make voting compulsory. Abstain if you want but that should be via a tick box, whether on line, postal or at a polling station. The SNP reduced the voting age for Indy 1, I do not know if they would be so keen on compulsory voting, but I do not want Scotland ripped apart by a decision made by those that can or cannot be bothered or cannot turn out for some other reason. Personally I do not agree with a referendum system where a simple majority can prevail, but if everyone has a say I can and would recognise the outcome.

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2 minutes ago, Skacelsid said:

The ongoing fiasco of Brexit has shown us very a bad example of democracy at work. The divisions it has created in our society are hurtful and dangerous and will remain for decades to come. Basically little more than a third of our voting public has made this monumental decision to leave the EU. I voted remain but the decision should have been honoured by now. If/when we have indy ref 2 we need to have learned from this disaster. We have the technology and there need be no reason why we cannot make voting compulsory. Abstain if you want but that should be via a tick box, whether on line, postal or at a polling station. The SNP reduced the voting age for Indy 1, I do not know if they would be so keen on compulsory voting, but I do not want Scotland ripped apart by a decision made by those that can or cannot be bothered or cannot turn out for some other reason. Personally I do not agree with a referendum system where a simple majority can prevail, but if everyone has a say I can and would recognise the outcome.

 

Don't want to get into the legitimate outcomes debate but totally agree on compulsory voting and abstention options on ballot papers. 

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coconut doug
3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I give up.  Trying to debate with you is like banging my head off a wall.

 

I didn't copy and paste the article because providing a link is the correct way to attribute sources.

 

Everything was in that article to answer the question.  The fact you don't like it and want to go round in circles is your problem not mine, and I am not going to reply further on this as you had your chance a week ago.

You're running away Frank. I read the link ,it doesn't relate to the points you made. You claimed you had explained yourself in replies, that is what i asked you to copy and paste. 

   You are not able to justify the points you made which is now a clear pattern. I'm not replying either as i don't think you even have a rudimentary grasp of most of the things you post about. 

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coconut doug
2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

The SNP asked for those not in favour of independence to back them as a protest against Brexit. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/scotland/nicola-sturgeon-tells-scots-vote-for-snp-even-if-youre-against-independence/amp/

 

Then turned around and said it was a vote share which showed support for independence.

 

I'm not shocked. They've done this often. But it'll all be decided in due course. There won't be a section 30 order until after the next Holyrood elections because there are huge issues to be resolved before then. An independence referendum and negotiations to break up the UK whilst negotiating the future relationship between the UK and EU would derail everything else government does on both side of Hadrian's Wall. 

Its a record level of support and there were alternatives to the SNP for remainers so maybe her conclusion is correct. It seems almost all of the increase in the SNP vote would have come from Labour's collapse with a very similar amount of Labour defectors deciding to vote Libdem. Why would you vote SNP if you are pro union when you could vote Libdem for a similar outcome? 

  In any case whether you include Labour defectors or those lending their votes or not, the share of the vote received by the SNP undoubtedly shows support for Indy.  Maybe the salient point for Labour is to assess whether these votes have been given to the SNP on a temporary basis or whether another tranche of their support has realised just how inept they are and decided to go for indY instead. There are strong indications that they will now replace their leader in Scotland as they have posted their worst result since 1908. If Nicola is able to bring that about simply by asking to borrow their votes then she is more powerful than i ever thought she could be. 

 

  BTW Hadrian's wall is not the border between Scotland and England.

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Harry Potter
3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Don't want to get into the legitimate outcomes debate but totally agree on compulsory voting and abstention options on ballot papers. 

Eh so you get fined if you dont vote, you do realise half the folk forced to vote are clueless to what they are voting for.

Lets all wear grey suits, eat the same, and be told what tv programmes to watch, maybe a bit OTT there but being forced to vote, ha ha

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2 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Eh so you get fined if you dont vote, you do realise half the folk forced to vote are clueless to what they are voting for.

Lets all wear grey suits, eat the same, and be told what tv programmes to watch, maybe a bit OTT there but being forced to vote, ha ha

 

Provide a box on the ballot for none of the above. But yes, I'm advocating maoism.

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3 hours ago, coconut doug said:

Its a record level of support and there were alternatives to the SNP for remainers so maybe her conclusion is correct. It seems almost all of the increase in the SNP vote would have come from Labour's collapse with a very similar amount of Labour defectors deciding to vote Libdem. Why would you vote SNP if you are pro union when you could vote Libdem for a similar outcome? 

 

Agree. Again this comes down to one Nationalist party vs 4 Unionist ones in an election.

 

Labour's overall message was piss poor so you'll get no disagreement from me on the LibDem point. Daivd Martin's valiant attempts to shore up support with anti-Brexit pledges weren't enough to prevent the collapse or mitigate it.

 

3 hours ago, coconut doug said:

  In any case whether you include Labour defectors or those lending their votes or not, the share of the vote received by the SNP undoubtedly shows support for Indy.

 

Really? On such a low turnout and given the SNP message of vote for us against Brexit? The majority of 2011 didn't translate into a win for indy and I'd not be too overly optimistic yet that this is more so. Opinion polls still show Yes trailing No.

 

3 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

Maybe the salient point for Labour is to assess whether these votes have been given to the SNP on a temporary basis or whether another tranche of their support has realised just how inept they are and decided to go for indY instead.

 

And for the ineptitude the leadership must go.

 

3 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

There are strong indications that they will now replace their leader in Scotland as they have posted their worst result since 1908. If Nicola is able to bring that about simply by asking to borrow their votes then she is more powerful than i ever thought she could be. 

 

Is this not plain old electioneering? One party wins votes off other. The key point is this is their worst result since pre-WW1. Time for the leader to go - at the UK and Scottish level.

 

3 hours ago, coconut doug said:

BTW Hadrian's wall is not the border between Scotland and England.

 

Indeed. Was a figure of speech.

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jack D and coke

There’s literally no danger anyone who didn’t like the idea of Indy or just has a pathological hatred for the SNP would suddenly vote for them for a remain vote. 

Honestly that’s some levels of straw clutching. 

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5 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

There’s literally no danger anyone who didn’t like the idea of Indy or just has a pathological hatred for the SNP would suddenly vote for them for a remain vote. 

Honestly that’s some levels of straw clutching. 

 

Hard to disagree with that!

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5 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

There’s literally no danger anyone who didn’t like the idea of Indy or just has a pathological hatred for the SNP would suddenly vote for them for a remain vote. 

Honestly that’s some levels of straw clutching. 

 

Most voters don't have a pathological hatred of anyone and vote for competency and a good message. Things the SNP had in their campaign.

 

Given Labour members and voters across the rest of the UK opted for the Liberals and Greens on Europe it is not a stretch for them to go SNP in Scotland for similar reasoning. As David Martin is pointing out it was that switch which cost him and his colleagues seats. And that happened because of the EU message from Labour being poor.

 

Most voters these days are quite happy to shop around imo to what suits them at each election. Scotland has had 2 Holyrood elections with a Yes majority and yet lost the 2014 referendum. These things don't immediately translate to anything else.

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jack D and coke
38 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Most voters don't have a pathological hatred of anyone and vote for competency and a good message. Things the SNP had in their campaign.

 

Given Labour members and voters across the rest of the UK opted for the Liberals and Greens on Europe it is not a stretch for them to go SNP in Scotland for similar reasoning. As David Martin is pointing out it was that switch which cost him and his colleagues seats. And that happened because of the EU message from Labour being poor.

 

Most voters these days are quite happy to shop around imo to what suits them at each election. Scotland has had 2 Holyrood elections with a Yes majority and yet lost the 2014 referendum. These things don't immediately translate to anything else.

Agree to disagree??

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1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Most voters don't have a pathological hatred of anyone and vote for competency and a good message. Things the SNP had in their campaign.

 

Given Labour members and voters across the rest of the UK opted for the Liberals and Greens on Europe it is not a stretch for them to go SNP in Scotland for similar reasoning. As David Martin is pointing out it was that switch which cost him and his colleagues seats. And that happened because of the EU message from Labour being poor.

 

Most voters these days are quite happy to shop around imo to what suits them at each election. Scotland has had 2 Holyrood elections with a Yes majority and yet lost the 2014 referendum. These things don't immediately translate to anything else.

:rofl: 

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7 minutes ago, JAYEL said:

I didn’t vote SNP last Thursday but would vote Yes at the next Indyref

and would vote SNP at the next GE

 

 

Early postal vote? ;)

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I look forward to Sturgeon and her cultists laying out how Scotland will pay for itself under her Brussels vassal state plan. Independently costed, including new currency and where she plans to raise the capital to fund current services, pensions and welfare costs as well as pay the interest on Scotland's share of national debt. I look forward to this coming out soon. I assume the groundwork has already begun on this, or is it lucky white heather and Scots mist she wants us to trust in?

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2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Agree to disagree??

 

Fair play Jack. But I think voters are more prone to floating now given the ties of class and background are giving way to culture and identity.

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jack D and coke
14 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Fair play Jack. But I think voters are more prone to floating now given the ties of class and background are giving way to culture and identity.

See the post above for evidence. Cultists etc...

Scotland is skint etc, it’s too wee, haggis vouchers for currency, Krankie etc etc etc. I barely look on social media these days cos I’m drained reading the same stuff. It’s why I don’t get involved on these threads hardly anymore either cos after a few pages i feel the life draining out of me too. 

No danger these people would put a cross in any box EVER for the SNP. 

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Roxy Hearts
1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

I look forward to Sturgeon and her cultists laying out how Scotland will pay for itself under her Brussels vassal state plan. Independently costed, including new currency and where she plans to raise the capital to fund current services, pensions and welfare costs as well as pay the interest on Scotland's share of national debt. I look forward to this coming out soon. I assume the groundwork has already begun on this, or is it lucky white heather and Scots mist she wants us to trust in?

I look forward to our assets from the UK state. 

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Class of 75
3 hours ago, JackLadd said:

I look forward to Sturgeon and her cultists laying out how Scotland will pay for itself under her Brussels vassal state plan. Independently costed, including new currency and where she plans to raise the capital to fund current services, pensions and welfare costs as well as pay the interest on Scotland's share of national debt. I look forward to this coming out soon. I assume the groundwork has already begun on this, or is it lucky white heather and Scots mist she wants us to trust in?

They don't have a clue. Like everything else sketched on the back of a fag packet. The only reason they want EU membership is to pick up the short fall when they can't pay for it. I wonder how her skint faithful will react when taxes are increased to pay for the services they demand. What I can't understand is why Scotland would leave one Union to join another for Independence where it won't be independent and will be told what to do by Brussels. I even heard one SNP Councillor on the radio today say the ROI was the template for successful independence. If that is the bench mark then God help us.

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jack D and coke
3 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

They don't have a clue. Like everything else sketched on the back of a fag packet. The only reason they want EU membership is to pick up the short fall when they can't pay for it. I wonder how her skint faithful will react when taxes are increased to pay for the services they demand. What I can't understand is why Scotland would leave one Union to join another for Independence where it won't be independent and will be told what to do by Brussels. Short sightedness or something more nasty. 

Would you say Italy is independent from Ireland?

2 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

What assets? 

What debt then?

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Class of 75
Just now, jack D and coke said:

Would you say Italy is independent from Ireland?

What debt then?

What has Italy got to do with? Yes Scotland will pay part of the debt that is owed. 

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Class of 75
11 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Would you say Italy is independent from Ireland?

What debt then?

Sorry misread your post. I see where you are going with that. The EU would argue no. That is why the Irish PM was used as a mouthpiece by the EU to have a go at the UK during discussions. 

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40 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

What has Italy got to do with? Yes Scotland will pay part of the debt that is owed. 

And obviously receive it’s share of assets then.

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