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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

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Boris
2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

It's quite difficult to try to imagine a solution to the constitutional question that is going to work. Partition maybe?

 

 

 

Federalism across the entire UK?

 

Everyone can be autonomous but still one.  Best of both worlds?

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XB52
18 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Voted Yes first time around but probably vote No this time, especially if I was being dragged against my will back into the EU, besides how could it be Independence when all Scotland would have done is exchange one overlord in Westminster for a different one in Brussels. 

As for the currency that would be the Euro, so it's a no from me.

 

Oh dear, you sound like the guys who go on Facebook flagging off the snp/Yes supporters who always start with.  Honest I voted SNP yes but never again, total rubbish. Just be honest and say you voted no and always will.  And by the way, we would not have the euro as currency as you well know. Anyway, out of this thread as it just brings the usual lunatics out to say the same thing over and over again

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frankblack
35 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The current political climate is toxic. I can see why some politicians have walked on all sides and one or two who I know could've stood haven't. It's an awful situation.

 

I do think, however, that should Yes win again a lot of the No's would get on with life. They'll be highly critical of the SNP handling negotiations if it goes badly but I can't see it resulting in a pro-unionist agenda which would campaign for rejoining the UK. The will to do it wouldn't exist.

 

Sadly I think you are correct.

 

I think I'll be avoiding posting on political threads should there be another referendum.  On internet forums such as here people start name calling and posting insulting GIFs as soon as they get found out in a debate or just keep repeating the same things that have been discredited until people give up posting against them.  Either way, it is tiresome and ultimately achieves nothing.

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jack D and coke
9 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

It's quite difficult to try to imagine a solution to the constitutional question that is going to work. Partition maybe?

 

 

Federalism or proper home rule. But for some reason WM will just not go for it.

It’s the obvious answer with armed forces, currency etc questions all answered in one fell swoop. 

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jack D and coke

Double post

Edited by jack D and coke

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jack D and coke

treble post

Edited by jack D and coke

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argyjambo
41 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Reading through the replies. I was not legible 1st time and would have voted No If legible this time ironically I would vote Yes. 

Legible/not legible....that phrase is difficult to read?

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pablo
3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Federalism across the entire UK?

 

Everyone can be autonomous but still one.  Best of both worlds?

 

You wouldn't consider a partition with a proper independent Alba, with your own capital city,  language, laws and currency? That to me sounds like the best of both worlds.

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Jambo-Jimbo
28 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I was a Yes last time and I think I'd still be a Yes this time but probably softer or uncertain if being in the EU and retaining the Monarchy are assumed to be givens. I want independence to have more of a say in my country so I'd find it harder to vote for it with two important issues for me already decided on my behalf. 

 

Aussie actually came up with a decent idea, doesn't happen often I know (?) but if they had 3 votes on the ballot paper, I might just go with it.

1. YES/NO for Independence.

2. YES/NO for EU membership

3. YES/NO for retaining the Monarchy

 

I don't think the country would entertain 3 seperate referendums, so it would make sense to ask the 3 questions at the same time.

Either way I think it's imperative for all sides to tell the truth and stop all this doom & gloom end of the world scaremongering crap and stop treating the electorate with contempt.

All of Scotland's politicians need to realise that the public have little enough trust in politicians, if they engaged in another divisive doom and gloom scare campaign, the public would just turn off politics completely.

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Jambo-Jimbo
16 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Oh dear, you sound like the guys who go on Facebook flagging off the snp/Yes supporters who always start with.  Honest I voted SNP yes but never again, total rubbish. Just be honest and say you voted no and always will.  And by the way, we would not have the euro as currency as you well know. Anyway, out of this thread as it just brings the usual lunatics out to say the same thing over and over again

 

I voted YES mate, up to you if you want to believe that or not.

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Smithee
44 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

So there was full support for independence in the media? If the majority of the media supported it we would have it and that is a fact. 

You said "Unionists can't help themselves", the other guy pointed out the Yes camp contain zealots, and I'm saying both sides have their share of arseholes.

 

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richiehmfc

I voted no to independence and no leaving the EU 

Both times the uncertainty and unanswered questions over leaving left me unconvinced that it wouldn't be an absolute waste of money which the country (either scotland or UK in either case) would be left paying off for generations to come. 

Having now seen the absolute omni-shambles that is Brexit it probably convinces me even more that leaving the UK would be a nightmare. It would pretty much be an exact replica of what we are going through at the moment with Brexit. 

Maybe a separate issue but i also don't understand people who want to leave a union with our nearest neighbours and largest export/inport partners but remain within the EU where we (scotland) would have much less of an influence over decision. Always found that a strange viewpoint

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Highlander
1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I was a Yes last time and I think I'd still be a Yes this time but probably softer or uncertain if being in the EU and retaining the Monarchy are assumed to be givens. I want independence to have more of a say in my country so I'd find it harder to vote for it with two important issues for me already decided on my behalf. 

 

I assume, therefore, you supported Brexit? As in, actual independence?

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ri Alban
29 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

You wouldn't consider a partition with a proper independent Alba, with your own capital city,  language, laws and currency? That to me sounds like the best of both worlds.

Or you can leave. 

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AlphonseCapone
17 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Aussie actually came up with a decent idea, doesn't happen often I know (?) but if they had 3 votes on the ballot paper, I might just go with it.

1. YES/NO for Independence.

2. YES/NO for EU membership

3. YES/NO for retaining the Monarchy

 

I don't think the country would entertain 3 seperate referendums, so it would make sense to ask the 3 questions at the same time.

Either way I think it's imperative for all sides to tell the truth and stop all this doom & gloom end of the world scaremongering crap and stop treating the electorate with contempt.

All of Scotland's politicians need to realise that the public have little enough trust in politicians, if they engaged in another divisive doom and gloom scare campaign, the public would just turn off politics completely.

 

1. YES

2. NO

3. NO

 

Complete split from it all. 

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ri Alban
7 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

1. YES

2. NO

3. NO

 

Complete split from it all. 

Just a wee reminder that the monarchy is ours. 

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AlphonseCapone
14 minutes ago, Highlander said:

 

I assume, therefore, you supported Brexit? As in, actual independence?

 

I voted remain at the time. I've since changed my view on that I think. I say think because it's a very current process I'm going through on it. 

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AlphonseCapone
3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Just a wee reminder that the monarchy is ours. 

 

I know Scotland has a long history with Monarchy, long before the act of Union. But a 21st Century nation shouldn't have a family born into a position of power imo. 

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Dawnrazor
1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

 

As always, there are arseholes on all sides!

My point exactly. 

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Roxy Hearts
30 minutes ago, Smithee said:

You said "Unionists can't help themselves", the other guy pointed out the Yes camp contain zealots, and I'm saying both sides have their share of arseholes.

 

It was more about the politians who are ably supported by the media. There are zealots on both sides but at least the Yes camp's zeal is wholly for Scotland and not governance elsewhere. 

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ri Alban
4 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I know Scotland has a long history with Monarchy, long before the act of Union. But a 21st Century nation shouldn't have a family born into a position of power imo. 

Didn’t say I agree with it, but our king became their king. If they want to keep their pound we'll keep our kingdom. 

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Poseidon
19 hours ago, Carl Weathers said:

I voted yes (with my heart). I'd probably vote no now as there was so many unanswered questions last time. It would also very much would depend on what was on offer. Key questions for me would include what would the currency be and would we be in/out of the EU. 

 

I guess I'd start my research from the beginning if it happened again.

 

 

Same situation for me

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bobsharp

I have no cards to play in the game, and have by emigration disqualified myself from an opinion.  The only things that go through my hgead is if the majority decision is independence, the administrative tasks that have to take place.

At this time I do receive a reduced old age pension, would Scotland carry this on, or would it be paid by England. Would there be a physical border between the two former united countries. My son was born and lived his first four years in Scotland, if on retirement as some do he decided to return would he be counted as a citizen by birth of what would be a new country, conversely would his previous British citizenship be revoked. As has been discussed the financial system, medical system, membership in International organisations, trade deals, immigration policies and enforcement,the  list goes on and it makes my old head spin. I just as a manager responsible for policy and budgeting wonder at the basic costs of change everything that had a sign coats of arms a crown have to be changed, uniforms for government workers customs, immigration, costs costs  costs, ach I am getting dizzy and its none of my danmn business.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
2 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Zealots are never particularly friendly when you disagree with them.

 

I voted yes, still would, however during the last ref I did question something online somewhere.  A genuine question/point of view.  The replies were scary, despite all supposed to be on the "same" side.

 

More than happy for the UJ waving, George Square Sturmabteilung to be shown no mercy though.  They are simply vermin, regardless of the debate. 

 

The last bit I agree with, even though I would have voted no (I didn't live in Scotland when it was on).

 

The way some members of my family carry on with each other (yes and no voters) is really quite sad.

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Boris
1 hour ago, pablo said:

 

You wouldn't consider a partition with a proper independent Alba, with your own capital city,  language, laws and currency? That to me sounds like the best of both worlds.

 

Ah, sorry, misunderstood.  So a split Scotland.  Interesting...

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Jambo-Jimbo
27 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

1. YES

2. NO

3. NO

 

Complete split from it all. 

 

1. YES

2. NO

3. ?????

I've no love for the Monarchy but I don't hate them either, number 3 would probably be a spur of the moment thing, it could go either way.

 

As for the complete break, I've been saying this for long enough (mind having a long discussion with AussieH & Spacey about this), Independence for me means Independence, not this part-time half baked pish that the SNP are proposing of giving away our Independence and exchanging one master in Westminster for a different one in Brussels, for me it would be we make our own laws, decisions & deals and we succeed or fail by our own decisions, not the decisions made by some other parliament hundreds of miles away in either Westminster or Brussels.

 

Of course, if at some time in the future it was in Scotland's interest to join the EU then so be it, but it would have to be on our terms and would have to benefit us more than them.

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Sarah O

Just reading this thread shows how close the whole affair is. We  really are a divided nation.

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Highlander
6 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

Just reading this thread shows how close the whole affair is. We  really are a divided nation.

 

I'm not sure I would agree with that Sarah. I would say countries like Iran, Syria and Israel are divided nations. In Scotland, we are not at war or engaged in tribal violence with one another. We just have a profound difference of opinion on how best to run a country. 

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Cruyff Turn
1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Federalism across the entire UK?

 

Everyone can be autonomous but still one.  Best of both worlds?

I agree with this Boris. That is exactly how it should have been dealt with but that is far too sensible for our esteemed leaders.

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Sarah O
17 minutes ago, Highlander said:

 

I'm not sure I would agree with that Sarah. I would say countries like Iran, Syria and Israel are divided nations. In Scotland, we are not at war or engaged in tribal violence with one another. We just have a profound difference of opinion on how best to run a country. 

We are a politically divided nation. I'd say quite badly divided as well if truth be told. 

 

Yes we don't have war or tribal violence - but that it not a pre requisite of being divided.

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ri Alban

More a hangover from religious division. A bad trait wee need to grow out of. Political division is not unique to Scotland. 

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Cruyff Turn
10 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

We are a politically divided nation. I'd say quite badly divided as well if truth be told. 

 

Yes we don't have war or tribal violence - but that it not a pre requisite of being divided.

Yep. And some folk believe that the No side would be happy just to accept the vote. Rangers fans destroyed Manchester when they couldn’t watch their team getting beat on big screens. People actually believe that  those types wouldn’t  turn the place upside down if they had their precious Union ripped up. That’s the basis of their entire existence ffs. :rofl:

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Hasselhoff

Relatively sure No last time after a lot of research. Even more solid No this time.  Colleagues at work were Yes last time and now would be No. 

 

Yes was full of it last time round but they didn't get found out until afterwards. 

 

As a previous poster alluded to, the EU referendum was known about at the time of the vote and we still voted no. The EU was not listed as a major factor for no voters and so to pretend otherwise is just opportunism from the SNP. 

 

Scotland has more than paid its way in the UK and so nobody should feel subsidised by the UK. We benefit greatly being part of the UK and always have done. 

 

People that think independence transcends everything should not be trusted. They will never change their mind and admit it might not be the best for Scotland.

 

All evidence shows Scotland spend a lot more than we can afford to spend currently. We can't live the way we are currently living in an indy Scotland. It is blatant short term bribery to get them over the line. 

 

False social media and "alternative news" is the only way Yes will deceive the nation to vote for indy. 

 

 

 

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ri Alban
2 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

Relatively sure No last time after a lot of research. Even more solid No this time.  Colleagues at work were Yes last time and now would be No. 

 

Yes was full of it last time round but they didn't get found out until afterwards. 

 

As a previous poster alluded to, the EU referendum was known about at the time of the vote and we still voted no. The EU was not listed as a major factor for no voters and so to pretend otherwise is just opportunism from the SNP. 

 

Scotland has more than paid its way in the UK and so nobody should feel subsidised by the UK. We benefit greatly being part of the UK and always have done. 

 

People that think independence transcends everything should not be trusted. They will never change their mind and admit it might not be the best for Scotland.

 

All evidence shows Scotland spend a lot more than we can afford to spend currently. We can't live the way we are currently living in an indy Scotland. It is blatant short term bribery to get them over the line. 

 

False social media and "alternative news" is the only way Yes will deceive the nation to vote for indy. 

 

 

 

Dear God :facepalm:

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Hasselhoff
16 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Dear God :facepalm:

 

original-8895-1449493208-4.jpg?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

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ToqueJambo
8 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

2 points here:

 

1. Why will the Yes movement suddenly be open minded to parties and leaders they have shunned for so long? Hear this often repeated. But if you don't like Davidson now why will that change? 

 

2. Same on policies. The parties here all set their own manifestos. So their day to day policies won't change massively. The Tories will still favour free schools in Scotland. Labour still want to nationalise railways and the Lib Dems will still want to abolish council tax. So what legitimate change do you see happening here? 

 

 

They are elections of representatives for parties who publish broad manifestos on a range of issues to form a parliament of different views to govern.

 

Not a binary choice of two black or white policy positions.

 

 

This ignores that No weren't wholly dependent on the OAP vote. 

 

 

Pretty much my view.

 

But honestly, I don't think the SNP have done much to improve the prospects of winning a yes vote. I think they think they have. They've had assemblies and been part of rallies but those preach to the already converted. Personally - on the antics of some leading yes politicians and their prominent backers - that the Yes movement has done a Brexiteers move of late: it's more closed in around the SNP, it's less open to criticism than before and it is increasingly "Yes at all costs".

 

To me - a yes voter in 2014 - there has simply not been a huge sea change in opinion in the nation to allow for a vote nor for a yes vote to win. I'd go as far to say that the SNP or perhaps certain persons within it and the Yes movement are as big a hindrance to winning as certain prominent Westminster politicians are to winning a No vote. 

 

If one were held tomorrow - and I was in Scotland - it'd be a No from me. I don't think now is the time nor will it improve matters to Scottish people. To me it's Brexit with a "progressive" spin.

 

Progressive spin? That’s an interesting way to describe escaping from Tory rule forever.

 

scotland has proven at the ballot box in westminster and holyrood elections that it is a considerably more progressive and social democratic country inmoutlook and policy (the ones it can control) than England and the rest of the UK, and has been for some time.

 

Going our separate ways and staying good friends makes perfect sense to me anyhow.

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Marvin
3 hours ago, argyjambo said:

Legible/not legible....that phrase is difficult to read?

 

:isee:

 

 

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Toxteth O'Grady
19 hours ago, H2 said:

I think Brexit will have shown people, don't vote for something if you don't know what you are getting. I doubt the SNP will want a referendum anytime soon, they must realise people have wised up.

 

When Scotland voted to stay in the union we didn't know we were getting out of Europe in fact we were told the opposite. 

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ri Alban
26 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

original-8895-1449493208-4.jpg?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

Instead of insults, why don't you prove what your saying. Start with this we spend more than we bring in. Who spends? I think you'll find Wm overspend on our behalf on things we don't want, need or don't benefit from. 

 

So... I'm all ears. 

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Hasselhoff
12 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Instead of insults, why don't you prove what your saying. Start with this we spend more than we bring in. Who spends? I think you'll find Wm overspend on our behalf on things we don't want, need or don't benefit from. 

 

So... I'm all ears. 

 

It was purely for you that image. They are who I think of when I see your posts. 

 

There is no convincing you and so I would not bother wasting my time. 

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Thunderstruck

It’s a NO. 

 

It would be a folly to jump out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft without a parachute and, like Brexit, seeking independence without a plan, any assessment of impact, or the duration of plummet would be no different. 

 

There is no parachute, no idea what a parachute looks like, no idea how to use a parachute and no idea what sort of landing would follow.  

 

It will, however, be fine as we we are told that we can worry about a parachute after we make contact with Terra firma. Madness!

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ri Alban
16 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

It was purely for you that image. They are who I think of when I see your posts. 

 

There is no convincing you and so I would not bother wasting my time. 

Yawn!  You've nothing to say. 

 

I would post a picture of Broady from homeland but I'll keep it civil. 

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ri Alban
17 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

It’s a NO. 

 

It would be a folly to jump out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft without a parachute and, like Brexit, seeking independence without a plan, any assessment of impact, or the duration of plummet would be no different. 

 

There is no parachute, no idea what a parachute looks like, no idea how to use a parachute and no idea what sort of landing would follow.  

 

It will, however, be fine as we we are told that we can worry about a parachute after we make contact with Terra firma. Madness!

They've already jumped and we've been pushed, we may as well try to reach the ocean or trees while we can., because when Brexit isn't what they were told it is, guess who they'll train their guns on next. 

Edited by ri Alban

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redjambo
49 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Instead of insults, why don't you prove what your saying. Start with this we spend more than we bring in. Who spends? I think you'll find Wm overspend on our behalf on things we don't want, need or don't benefit from. 

 

So... I'm all ears. 

 

Instead of posting "Dear God" and a cute image of Picard face-palming, why didn't you address some of the points the poster made? You can't expect folk to be eloquent and to address the points if you yourself indulge in short soundbite putdowns.

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coconut doug
4 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

That would be good. How would you go about achieving that? It would reverse a trend of several centuries.

This has slowed down a lot in recent years and may no longer be vastly relevant. A decreasing birht rate and improved standard of living will have contributed to it. Government now insists that we need more immigration as we have a skills shortage. The solution is simple - we need to upskill and reskill our workforce. We need to provide real opportunities for people in areas that are relevant to Scotland.  Building a sustainable and decent society around caring and inclusive values especially for children would give people a future and more of a sense of belonging and less self loathing i.e. Scottish cringe. Planning for the future would be a start instead of leaving everything to the market and destroying your own industrial base and social cohesion. 

 

        Strange ideas and unrealistic aspirations i know but at the moment we are moving increasingly rapidly the other direction with many telling us that the dystopia on the horizon is inevitable and a natural consequence of the modern world. If people want to leave the country, then fine but we should try to make it more difficult for them to do so by making Scotland a better place.  

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ri Alban
5 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Instead of posting "Dear God" and a cute image of Picard face-palming, why didn't you address some of the points the poster made? You can't expect folk to be eloquent and to address the points if you yourself indulge in short soundbite putdowns.

I thought that was Mo. :facepalm:

I've done it before red, I'm not interested in persuading anyone, anymore. You're either Scots or you're not. You don't need an excuse to vote yes, just no. 

Edited by ri Alban

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redjambo
Just now, ri Alban said:

I thought that was Mo. :facepalm:

I've done it before red, I'm not interested in persuading anyone. Your either Scots or your not. You don't need an excuse to vote yes, just no. 

 

That honestly is a ridiculous argument, dismissing all the opinions of those who are Scots but who don't want independence for one reason or other. If you and others who support your position are going to adopt such a puerile attitude towards your "opponents" (as happened the last time, unfortunately), you're going to lose again. You have to stop with the sound-bites, stop treating your opponents like mindless, scared, media-following folk who are "letting down their country", and treat them as people, fellow citizens, who have genuine opinions and concerns. If not, you're going to find it difficult to ever win the argument.

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ri Alban
12 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

That honestly is a ridiculous argument, dismissing all the opinions of those who are Scots but who don't want independence for one reason or other. If you and others who support your position are going to adopt such a puerile attitude towards your "opponents" (as happened the last time, unfortunately), you're going to lose again. You have to stop with the sound-bites, stop treating your opponents like mindless, scared, media-following folk who are "letting down their country", and treat them as people, fellow citizens, who have genuine opinions and concerns. If not, you're going to find it difficult to ever win the argument.

Not an argument, as I said I don't care what no voters do.  And rather have a civil war. 

Edited by ri Alban

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Thunderstruck
30 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

They've already jumped and we've been pushed, we may as well try to reach the ocean or trees while we can., because when Brexit isn't what they were told it is, guess who they'll train their guns on next. 

 

Who are “they” and “we”?

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