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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?


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coconut doug
On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 02:46, Hasselhoff said:

 

Survation were the most accurate polling company when it came to indyref. 

 

They are also the polling company who have returned in two separate polls 3 or 4 months apart that 60% then 61% want to remain in the UK. 

 

 

Are you talking about this Survation poll?

 

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/04/is-there-any-more-more-ridiculous-sight.html

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On 17/05/2019 at 11:38, JamboX2 said:

 

But you can't equate power and influence into wee pie charts and graphs. The nature of legal and political power is a hard to quantify thing. Holyrood is an extremely powerful institution. How many Acts of Parliament from Westminster affect Scotland these days? How many contain (Scotland) in brackets in the title? 

 

Very few. Think that's a very good indicator.

 

I just wrote a 5,000 word paper in which I took the position that Holyrood has essentially zero power, thanks to the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty, and Brexit has only laid that reality all the more bare. I could upload it if you want to be bored. :lol:

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Roxy Hearts
3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

As we have seen with the Brexit talks the CTA is no solution in of itself on the Irish border. The conditions of Scottish membership of the EU and the EU's relationship with Britain will define the border arrangements for Scotland. 

 

It won't be an open border, this is not in my view a good thing going forward or long term. Take a similar approach to Brexit with this, breaking things up is not a solution to our woes. In many ways it may exacerbate them.

 

I think the UK as a whole is reeling from austerity brought in by the Coalition in 2010. The fabric of the nation has been torn up. Independence to me, and the economics proposed around that, don't solve these problems. In many ways they maintain them. Political change is needed.

JX2 are you Ian Murray? Defend the indefensible at times! 

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jack D and coke
7 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

JX2 are you Ian Murray? Defend the indefensible at times! 

Jambo x2 used to be the poster I respected the most when it came to political stuff. Maybe it’s because he said stuff that agreed with my thinking at the the time I don’t know but every time I read anything he posts now I just think...labour drone. 

Sorry pal I mean no offence??

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Hasselhoff
12 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

James Kelly is as biased a poll analyst as Angus Robertson's new company, specifically formed to try and illustrate the movement from no to yes. 

 

The link certainly  backs you up on your assertion that voters in Scotland (specifically yes voters) are too stupid to notice the difference between leaving the UK and remaining in the UK and how they correlate to "do you want Scotland to be an independent country?"

 

There have been two votes both with the same questioning and consistent scoring. Look back a few pages on this thread and you will find a previous response from me to you with links. So Kelly's point is defeated as there is now a previous poll with the same question. Remain in Uk was +1 in second poll. 

Edited by Hasselhoff
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Roxy Hearts
8 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Jambo x2 used to be the poster I respected the most when it came to political stuff. Maybe it’s because he said stuff that agreed with my thinking at the the time I don’t know but every time I read anything he posts now I just think...labour drone. 

Sorry pal I mean no offence??

Same here. Too much political twisting in his posts now. 

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On 18/05/2019 at 18:25, coconut doug said:

Funnily enough the current arrangements and those expected to prevail after a No Deal Brexit are both described as an Open Border situation by the UK gov https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/travelling-in-the-common-travel-area-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/travelling-within-the-common-travel-area-and-the-associated-rights-of-british-and-irish-citi and Wikipaedias descriptioon of what the CTA is  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area 

They even made a committment for the fulture "Where required, domestic legislation and agreements will be updated to ensure that the CTA rights continue to have a clear legal basis."

 

   All the nonsense about border checks dreamt up by Miliband and others would apear to be just that but of course there is the previously raised problem that simple, common sense solutions to everyday problems would not somehow apply to Scotland and the Scots. Perhaps you have knowledge that in the event of Indy and Scotland remaining in the EU Scotland would be excluded from the CTA.

 

 The whole of the UK has been affected by austerity and the next chapter is the privatisation of the NHS. The good news is that Scotland has shown that it is more resilient in many areas. Taking action like increasing income Tax for for the higher earners and rejigging the Council Tax helps a bit to mediate against the worst effects. Conversely Both Labour and Tories voted for the most regressive budget i can ever remember giving the rich tax cuts They also voted to cut disabilty benefits.

  We have a different approach in Scotland which can of course be more effective if we were to have total control.

       Political change is needed it's just that afaics south of the border that means Farage and/or Bojo. IMO their ascendancy will demonstrate to all fair minded people in Scotland that we have different values to southern Britons generally.

 

If CTA was a solution to a frictionless border then there would be no Irish border problem as part of Brexit.

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17 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Jambo x2 used to be the poster I respected the most when it came to political stuff. Maybe it’s because he said stuff that agreed with my thinking at the the time I don’t know but every time I read anything he posts now I just think...labour drone. 

Sorry pal I mean no offence??

 

None taken. If you want indy go for it. I think many of the fatal flaws of the first referendum have not been solved. Hence I find it hard to justify supporting it now. 

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

If CTA was a solution to a frictionless border then there would be no Irish border problem as part of Brexit.

I'm not sure why we need a solution to a frictionless border but what you said was that you had changed your mind on Indy because previously you had 0 concerns about the border between Scotland and UK and now you do. 

 

I mentioned the CTA agreement because it addresses this issue and all citizens of UK and Ireland are able to travel freely between the countries and will still be able to even in the event of no deal. They will be able to get access to social housing, education, welfare, voting and lots of other things simply because they are citizens of either country. This agreement has only just been extended so the signatories are well aware of the current situation.

 As i previously suggested it may be that Scotland would not wish to enter this agreement or that the others would not want Scotland to join but that seems extremely unlikely to me.

   The Irish backstop issue is not about an individuals freedom of movement or their reciprocal rights in each other's country, 

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Unknown user

FWIW I generally support independence, but I think we should reevaluate the relationship and friendship with England, Wales and NI in a much more positive way than people seem to assume would happen. 

They're our closest neighbours and friends and we have so much in common, so much history. I'd be happy with some sort of reciprocal deal, a customs union, a free movement deal etc, if the details were worked out properly.

 

The UK's brought us a lot, we shouldn't burn the house down, I just want the right to govern our own affairs. 

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coconut doug
10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

FWIW I generally support independence, but I think we should reevaluate the relationship and friendship with England, Wales and NI in a much more positive way than people seem to assume would happen. 

They're our closest neighbours and friends and we have so much in common, so much history. I'd be happy with some sort of reciprocal deal, a customs union, a free movement deal etc, if the details were worked out properly.

 

The UK's brought us a lot, we shouldn't burn the house down, I just want the right to govern our own affairs. 

Absolutely, we should also have the ability to co-operate with others on a whole range of issues. 

 

There are some people who constantly imply that if we become independent and remain in the EU we will no longer be able to trade with the rUK. They frequently tell us that the trade we do with RUK is 4 times the amount we do with the EU as if they were mutually exclusive. Some English people i have spoken to have taken the desire for Indy personally and feel rejected and actually imagine that because of our ungratefulness they will no longer have anything to do with us.

 

For me the priorities are Foreign policy and inequality but so many seem to want to characterise our desire to make things better as being anti-English. Others constantly go on about grievance politics but like you i recognise the benefits of the Union and the things we have in common. It's just that now i don't think the benefits of the union outweigh the costs anymore.

The UK though is an international laughing stock, we have been governed by the unembarrassable agents of vested interest for too long and although things could change i see no indication that it will, and consider much of the damage done to be irreparable.

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1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

I'm not sure why we need a solution to a frictionless border...

 

Because it would increase the cost of trade between Scotland and the UK and create a hard border if there was no customs union between the EU and UK. 

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frankblack
2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

None taken. If you want indy go for it. I think many of the fatal flaws of the first referendum have not been solved. Hence I find it hard to justify supporting it now. 

 

Correct.

 

The last referendum showed that the SNP were winging it, an example being the famous white paper, and they have not done anything since to convince the No voters to switch.

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Unknown user
6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Correct.

 

The last referendum showed that the SNP were winging it, an example being the famous white paper, and they have not done anything since to convince the No voters to switch.

This is a drum you bang a lot Frank, and as I always say, they don't need to convince the No voters, just a small amount of them. There's a group that aren't as entrenched as most of us and if there is another referendum and they're very smart they'll put a lot of effort into targeting that group and have a very good chance. As I've said before, literally no one's going to waste their time trying to convince you!

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coconut doug
32 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Because it would increase the cost of trade between Scotland and the UK and create a hard border if there was no customs union between the EU and UK. 

A frictionless border would have no friction and wouldn't create a hard border. 

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20 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Correct.

 

The last referendum showed that the SNP were winging it, an example being the famous white paper, and they have not done anything since to convince the No voters to switch.

 

Sounds like any other Government the World over. The white paper was the same as any other election manifesto from any political party the world over as well, if you take it as anything else you do your own intelligence a disservice, so they must be ready for it. What's your problem? Are you too wee, or too stupid, or too poor to take responsibility? That's all that would be asked of you at the end of the day, if Independence were to come.

 

All of the scaremongering stories from the UK parties are white elephants. 

 

It's difficult to take someone seriously when they hold up any parties election manifesto and try desperately to use it against them due to the predictions that didn't come true. It's difficult due to it being the easiest thing in the world for anyone, and I mean anyone, to do this to any political party, again, the world over.

 

The arguments aren't arguments at all, they are political tools designed to keep the shit chat going round in circles. They have Westminster/Oxbridge hallmarks stamped all over them. Politically effective for convincing "the people" that the only way they could believe the SNP is if they said Independence would be bad for us and our currency would be oatcakes.

 

 

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Roxy Hearts
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Correct.

 

The last referendum showed that the SNP were winging it, an example being the famous white paper, and they have not done anything since to convince the No voters to switch.

Independence isn't about the SNP. Never read the white paper and don't know anyone who has. I don't want to be governed by Westminster and the morons in it. Scots should govern themselves like normal countries. Fed up with the "cannae dae it" brigade and people like Farage, Johnson, Gove, Davidson, we can do better than these dangerous idiots. Our country is being dragged backwards and our own people are allowing it to happen!

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7 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

None taken. If you want indy go for it. I think many of the fatal flaws of the first referendum have not been solved. Hence I find it hard to justify supporting it now. 

Can you vote in the next referendum?  

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frankblack
7 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

Sounds like any other Government the World over. The white paper was the same as any other election manifesto from any political party the world over as well, if you take it as anything else you do your own intelligence a disservice, so they must be ready for it. What's your problem? Are you too wee, or too stupid, or too poor to take responsibility? That's all that would be asked of you at the end of the day, if Independence were to come.

 

All of the scaremongering stories from the UK parties are white elephants. 

 

It's difficult to take someone seriously when they hold up any parties election manifesto and try desperately to use it against them due to the predictions that didn't come true. It's difficult due to it being the easiest thing in the world for anyone, and I mean anyone, to do this to any political party, again, the world over.

 

The arguments aren't arguments at all, they are political tools designed to keep the shit chat going round in circles. They have Westminster/Oxbridge hallmarks stamped all over them. Politically effective for convincing "the people" that the only way they could believe the SNP is if they said Independence would be bad for us and our currency would be oatcakes.

 

 

 

You are living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

The white paper was more than a manifesto, it was created to show that Independence was economically sustainable with oil and gas revenues propping up the economy.  Six months later the oil price collapsed along with the SNP's credibility.

 

Since then the SNP have been dodging all calls to provide detail on their "plan B", and asking the electorate to take a blind punt and hope for the best.  Educated people are going to want a lot stronger guarantees before jumping off a cliff.

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36 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You are living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

The white paper was more than a manifesto, it was created to show that Independence was economically sustainable with oil and gas revenues propping up the economy.  Six months later the oil price collapsed along with the SNP's credibility.

 

Since then the SNP have been dodging all calls to provide detail on their "plan B", and asking the electorate to take a blind punt and hope for the best.  Educated people are going to want a lot stronger guarantees before jumping off a cliff.

What like, lies on a bus.

 

 

 

Equating, no voters and education. :rofl: . Sunday school isn't education. And learning the flute isn't classically trained either.

Edited by ri Alban
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55 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You are living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

The white paper was more than a manifesto, it was created to show that Independence was economically sustainable with oil and gas revenues propping up the economy.  Six months later the oil price collapsed along with the SNP's credibility.

 

Since then the SNP have been dodging all calls to provide detail on their "plan B", and asking the electorate to take a blind punt and hope for the best.  Educated people are going to want a lot stronger guarantees before jumping off a cliff.

 

Ironically, those most against Independence, the Tories, would have most to gain from it.  A blank canvas, so to speak, imagine how their juices would flow at that prospect.  It would be like Pinochet's Chile all over again!

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On 17/05/2019 at 09:52, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Horrendous and arrogant post. Fancy detailing why exactly each of those countries are a mess? And make sure you don't use anything that also applies to the UK. 

 

 

It's pretty obvious what it shows if accurate. Baffling you'd need it explained. Comparing it flat earthers is ridiculous. 

 

Based on everything you say about Scottish independence on all the political threads I can only conclude that you are either lying about voting yes in 2014 or you're deranged for voting for something you do nothing but point out all the reasons for not doing it. 

Totally agree. Starts a lot of posts saying he is open minded about independence then spends the rest of the post slating it and the SNP.

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Unknown user
3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

You are living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

The white paper was more than a manifesto, it was created to show that Independence was economically sustainable with oil and gas revenues propping up the economy.  Six months later the oil price collapsed along with the SNP's credibility.

 

Since then the SNP have been dodging all calls to provide detail on their "plan B", and asking the electorate to take a blind punt and hope for the best.  Educated people are going to want a lot stronger guarantees before jumping off a cliff.

 

Ah well, I guess they'll just have to focus on the dumb ones who don't share your opinion. 

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8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Can you vote in the next referendum?  

 

Depends when it is. At the moment it doesn't sound like it's going to be very soon.

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13 hours ago, coconut doug said:

A frictionless border would have no friction and wouldn't create a hard border. 

 

Brexit means Brexit type post.

 

Norway and Sweden are two neighbouring nations with different relationships to the EU. They have a customs border and goods are checked as they cross the border. It is not a free movement of goods, services and people border. It has been rejected as a workable solution to the Irish border as it would not be a frictionless border.

 

If Scotland is in the EU and the UK is out of the EU, Scotland will have hard border infrastructure with England. This is the Irish border conundrum. Which has not yet been adequately solved for Brexit and ergo also independence.

 

In 2014 this would not be an issue as we would have been in the EU together. 

Edited by JamboX2
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frankblack
7 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Brexit means Brexit type post.

 

Norway and Sweden are two neighbouring nations with different relationships to the EU. They have a customs border and goods are checked as they cross the border. It is not a free movement of goods, services and people border. It has been rejected as a workable solution to the Irish border as it would not be a frictionless border.

 

If Scotland is in the EU and the UK is out of the EU, Scotland will have hard border infrastructure with England. This is the Irish border conundrum. Which has not yet been adequately solved for Brexit and ergo also independence.

 

In 2014 this would not be an issue as we would have been in the EU together. 

 

Agree.

 

This is the stumbling block May has tied her Withdrawal deal to.

 

Scotland would need to build and man another Hadrian's Wall on our side of the border.

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frankblack
1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Ah well, I guess they'll just have to focus on the dumb ones who don't share your opinion. 

 

It does seem like there are quite a few of them, TBF. ?

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33 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Brexit means Brexit type post.

 

Norway and Sweden are two neighbouring nations with different relationships to the EU. They have a customs border and goods are checked as they cross the border. It is not a free movement of goods, services and people border. It has been rejected as a workable solution to the Irish border as it would not be a frictionless border.

 

If Scotland is in the EU and the UK is out of the EU, Scotland will have hard border infrastructure with England. This is the Irish border conundrum. Which has not yet been adequately solved for Brexit and ergo also independence.

 

In 2014 this would not be an issue as we would have been in the EU together. 

 

Interesting take on the Swedish Norwegian situation.

 

http://theconversation.com/irish-border-after-brexit-an-expert-on-norway-sweden-explains-how-to-keep-things-smooth-88749

 

"Norway has even joined the Schengen Agreementon abolishing border controls. In this way, the free movement between Norway and Sweden that has existed since the 1950s has been retained and reinforced by European cooperation."

 

So would suggest that there is relative freedom of movement of people.  Norway of course is in the EEA so a rUK outwith EEA/EFTA may be more problematic in terms of borders.  That said, eventually some sort of trade deal will be agreed with the EU and UK, quite possibly before Scottish independence, therefore the future would be known

 

As an aside, 63% (or thereabouts) of exports from Scotland go to rUK.

 

I can't seem to find this but would be interesting to know how much goes to each constituent part of rUK, and what these exports actually are.  For example, are we exporting things that are then part of a manufacturing process in England, that is then exported globally?

 

I suppose what I'm getting at is whilst exports from Scotland to rUK are very important to the Scottish economy, what importance are they to the rUK economies?  I'm not trying to sound like that hard brexit mantra "BMW needs the UK market"!  Just wondering what opportunities exist for perhaps finding new markets or diversification of products etc.  Trade with rUK would not stoop due to independence.  Just like trade with the EU isn't going to stop due to Brexit.  It's just that the rules will be different.  Yet if an independent Scotland has some membership/link with the EU, then rUK will already be equipped on those terms, so not sure where the problem lies.

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coconut doug
12 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Brexit means Brexit type post.

 

Norway and Sweden are two neighbouring nations with different relationships to the EU. They have a customs border and goods are checked as they cross the border. It is not a free movement of goods, services and people border. It has been rejected as a workable solution to the Irish border as it would not be a frictionless border.

 

If Scotland is in the EU and the UK is out of the EU, Scotland will have hard border infrastructure with England. This is the Irish border conundrum. Which has not yet been adequately solved for Brexit and ergo also independence.

 

In 2014 this would not be an issue as we would have been in the EU together. 

This is what you said "If CTA was a solution to a frictionless border then there would be no Irish border problem as part of Brexit." but presumably not what you meant.

 

What you are telling us now is that your concern is that Scotland would have a hard border with England and comparing it to the situation between Norway and Sweden where you state "It is not a free movement of goods, services and people border." Here's a BBC account that describes the border between the two countries  as"frictionless".  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41412561

The article states that the main reason for this frictionless state is co-operation but who knows maybe England wouldn't want to co-operate with us or vv.

Here's the customs manager's quote 

"I don't think there's any border in the world that's so smooth," says Kristen Hoiberget who runs the customs operation at Svinesund, one of a dozen border crossings that freight companies are allowed to use. He says the average waiting time is eight minutes.

It's taken me a lot longer than 8 minutes to get through passport control at Edinburgh after arriving from an EU destination and i'm just a foot passenger with hand baggage. Currently though coming from England there are no delays but if we were independent and both in the EU we would surely have similar delays to other countries.

Norway is of course in Shengen and so people from inside this area can cross freely without even having a passport.

 

 

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Brighton Jambo

All these people arguing that Scotland has the capability of govern itself are missing the point.  I don't see many No voters who would disagree with that thinking, of course it could.  The question I need to know is what are the consequences for me and my family with Scotland being independent.

 

I have worked for too long to risk a drop in house prices, to see any disruption to pensions, to live in a high tax economy, to see Scotland is recession and risk my employment.  I know lots of people will say its worth it to govern ourselves but not for me.  Nothing and I mean nothing is more important than the future I have worked to create for my children.

 

I accept all those things may not happen but they might.  And my nervousness is increased by the SNP saying that post independence there may be a period where things are challenging while the economy stabilises.  I appreciate the honesty from them but hardly going to make me change my vote.

 

Until someone can how me a credible plan for how all these concerns will be mitigated I will always vote no and I expect I am not alone in that.  Brexit has taught is more than ever don't vote for change unless you absolutely know what you are voting for. 

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40 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Brexit has taught is more than ever don't vote for change unless you absolutely know what you are voting for. 

 

Why do governments change then? (I know...arguably they don't...but hey...)

 

I'd also argue that brexit is completely different to Scotland gaining independence.  Comparing apples and oranges with that.

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Brighton Jambo
20 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Why do governments change then? (I know...arguably they don't...but hey...)

 

I'd also argue that brexit is completely different to Scotland gaining independence.  Comparing apples and oranges with that.

When governments change you now that after a few years they can change back.  Independence is a permanent change to the status quo. 

 

Although I do agree Brexit and Independence are not exactly the same they are not completely different.   Both involve a decision to break away from well established relationships.   Both involve the decision to leave being a 'leap of faith' as in neither case will all of the unknowns be fully understood. 

 

Also, if you speak to ardent brexiteers they will tell you they voted leave to take back control from the EU and to have greater say in how their country is run.  For them it was a very passionate patriotic vote for regaining control.    So actually quite similar to what many yes voters want. 

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16 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

When governments change you now that after a few years they can change back.  Independence is a permanent change to the status quo. 

 

Although I do agree Brexit and Independence are not exactly the same they are not completely different.   Both involve a decision to break away from well established relationships.   Both involve the decision to leave being a 'leap of faith' as in neither case will all of the unknowns be fully understood. 

 

Also, if you speak to ardent brexiteers they will tell you they voted leave to take back control from the EU and to have greater say in how their country is run.  For them it was a very passionate patriotic vote for regaining control.    So actually quite similar to what many yes voters want. 

 

Yes but the mechanics of leaving and the institutions that are indeed being left are completely different.

 

The UK is effectively leaving a trading bloc.

 

Scotland leaving the UK is perhaps more akin to the formation of nations post USSR or Czech/Slovakia.  There is precedent under international law with states gaining independence.

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

All these people arguing that Scotland has the capability of govern itself are missing the point.  I don't see many No voters who would disagree with that thinking, of course it could.  The question I need to know is what are the consequences for me and my family with Scotland being independent.

 

I have worked for too long to risk a drop in house prices, to see any disruption to pensions, to live in a high tax economy, to see Scotland is recession and risk my employment.  I know lots of people will say its worth it to govern ourselves but not for me.  Nothing and I mean nothing is more important than the future I have worked to create for my children.

 

I accept all those things may not happen but they might.  And my nervousness is increased by the SNP saying that post independence there may be a period where things are challenging while the economy stabilises.  I appreciate the honesty from them but hardly going to make me change my vote.

 

Until someone can how me a credible plan for how all these concerns will be mitigated I will always vote no and I expect I am not alone in that.  Brexit has taught is more than ever don't vote for change unless you absolutely know what you are voting for. 

What's on offer now is Brexit with a decrease in trade and national wealth, if we cannot offset this with increased trade around the world. The value of our currency continues to fall and house prices have been adversely affected. We continue to have one of the lowest state pension rates in the developed world generally because we have a low tax economy. Leaving the EU will provide US health care the opportunity to profiteer from the privatisation of the NHS.

        We have had 120,000 deaths due to austerity but continue to pay PFI providers exhorbitant rates of interest because of their dubious connections to our politicians. We have paid hundreds of billions of pounds to institutions (mainly banks) who lost this money through criminal activities or at best reckless speculation and are allowing the same institutions to do the same thing or worse all over again.

   We are partly responsible for a million deaths in Iraq, We have and continue to support every despot and the worst murderous regimes from Saudi Arabia and ISIS to the Nazis in Ukraine. Our foreign policy is based around the interests of our arms industry and bears no relation to the needs or wishes of the British people.

     We have a government that boasts that people are just about managing and that celebrates the opening of food banks. The wealth divide continues to expand and services decline. Life expectancy has stalled or declined under this government and our politicians have justifiably become laughing stocks internationally and reviled internally. Our infrastructure is often old and crumbling and lacking in investment unless it is serving the capital city and the interests of capitalism generally. We have no coherent plans for anything with all economic activity to be dictated by market forces. We have lots of money for aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons though, neither of which will ever make any contribution to the defence of the country.  Virtually all the social indicators show that most of the UK is going backwards and disproportionately reliant on immigrant labour but we want to restrict their entry further depressing our economic prospects even further.

    Until i can be sure that all of these things will be reversed i will continue to vote for change and believe that an independent Scotland can make better choices for my children.

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2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

This is what you said "If CTA was a solution to a frictionless border then there would be no Irish border problem as part of Brexit." but presumably not what you meant.

 

What you are telling us now is that your concern is that Scotland would have a hard border with England and comparing it to the situation between Norway and Sweden where you state "It is not a free movement of goods, services and people border." Here's a BBC account that describes the border between the two countries  as"frictionless".  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41412561

The article states that the main reason for this frictionless state is co-operation but who knows maybe England wouldn't want to co-operate with us or vv.

Here's the customs manager's quote 

"I don't think there's any border in the world that's so smooth," says Kristen Hoiberget who runs the customs operation at Svinesund, one of a dozen border crossings that freight companies are allowed to use. He says the average waiting time is eight minutes.

It's taken me a lot longer than 8 minutes to get through passport control at Edinburgh after arriving from an EU destination and i'm just a foot passenger with hand baggage. Currently though coming from England there are no delays but if we were independent and both in the EU we would surely have similar delays to other countries.

Norway is of course in Shengen and so people from inside this area can cross freely without even having a passport.

 

 

 

 

Why is that not a solution in Ireland? If it was, the deal would be done and there would be no Backstop.

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8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

You are living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

The white paper was more than a manifesto, it was created to show that Independence was economically sustainable with oil and gas revenues propping up the economy.  Six months later the oil price collapsed along with the SNP's credibility.

 

Since then the SNP have been dodging all calls to provide detail on their "plan B", and asking the electorate to take a blind punt and hope for the best.  Educated people are going to want a lot stronger guarantees before jumping off a cliff.

 

 

Ha ha ha ha. The Unionists called for a "vision of the future" they got what they asked for in the white paper. Educated people don't really do Mystic Meg. Guarantees for the future? You can jump off the cliff the UK is heading for if you want. I'll welcome the opportunity to choose a different path if required.

 

Educated people realise having a choice is a good thing. Educated people do not rely on the same tired old shit every time they open their tired old traps to repeat the same tired old shit that didn't wash the first time they said it. Educated people realise, that in this ever changing world, what is right today is not necessarily right tomorrow, which brings us back to having a choice and choice being a good thing.

 

Left to Westminster, there is no choice. There are no leaders. There are no credible anythings in Westminster at this moment in time yet you claim that educated people choose these people and this institution to run our lives, the very people and bloated institution that steal and waste so much of all our nations cash in a bid to get themselves and their friends rich? Are these educated people using their education to worm their way into their friendships so that they can benefit from the thievery? Is that how education works in this country?

 

I'm not in cloud cuckoo land, I am just able to see the wood as well as the trees.

 

Check that out, a post as long as that without the mention of a single political party. Why is that? You may ask. Well, if you're sitting comfortably, I'll begin. I have never ever chosen a single party, to love or to hate, I make my mind up on what they claim to offer. Most of the offers are bullshit but tie in with what they claim their party stands for, which is mostly bullshit as well. Once you know these things you are able to judge which is the least bullshit, a leaflet about targeting a single party/issue, or a leaflet outlining a direction to move forward as a nation in.

 

At this moment in time Westminster offers the choice of one party "of the left", we can all agree they aint' back there yet skip, one centre ground and four right of centre parties, therefore, without a shadow of a doubt, Westminster has been swallowed by its own bullshit and shit out again in an attempt to save all of the pomp and circumstance and tradition that allows the stealing and the cheating to go on while they obfuscate and bluff and bluster over how to deal with it, until the trails of the untouchables are covered and they can throw a couple of lambs to the slaughter to satisfy the people. Austerity = we suffer while they reap the rewards, that's what educated people want? Educated people want the rise of fascism? Well, some of them do, obviously, but you have to ask yourself, why are they doing this to the dafties that don't know any better? Why are they using them as pawns in their shit game?

 

I wonder if you ask yourself any of these questions, then I remember that you're educated. The time for asking questions is over, you no longer have questions that need answered, you are educated, therefore you are.

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1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Yes but the mechanics of leaving and the institutions that are indeed being left are completely different.

 

The UK is effectively leaving a trading bloc.

 

Scotland leaving the UK is perhaps more akin to the formation of nations post USSR or Czech/Slovakia.  There is precedent under international law with states gaining independence.

 

Agreed. That doesn't make the process essier, cheaper, less risky or less inherently divisive.

 

"Losers consent" will be a huge thing for indy campaigners to achieve and to win over the defeated side. The rhetoric of some does not lend itself to that (on both sides). Brexit has shown that to not do so results in a very fragmented and bitter political system.

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3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Agreed. That doesn't make the process essier, cheaper, less risky or less inherently divisive.

 

"Losers consent" will be a huge thing for indy campaigners to achieve and to win over the defeated side. The rhetoric of some does not lend itself to that (on both sides). Brexit has shown that to not do so results in a very fragmented and bitter political system.

 

 

Buzzz!

 

What a pish word to use in a political sense. Vote for us because the rest are shit and we will tell them they are shit to their face so you don't have to bother yourself with that kind of thing.

 

Divisive? Politics? Nah, yer having me on.

 

 

No surprises that it's straight from the vacuous mouth of the best impersonator of a  pitbull chewing a wasp we've seen in a while.

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So the Scottish Tories who supposedly hate, Boris Johnson (Operation Arse). Are now Pro BJ.  :rofl: These Tories don't half change their minds a lot. Yet, they don't think the rest of the place can't.

Edited by ri Alban
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frankblack
1 hour ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Ha ha ha ha. The Unionists called for a "vision of the future" they got what they asked for in the white paper. Educated people don't really do Mystic Meg. Guarantees for the future? You can jump off the cliff the UK is heading for if you want. I'll welcome the opportunity to choose a different path if required.

 

Educated people realise having a choice is a good thing. Educated people do not rely on the same tired old shit every time they open their tired old traps to repeat the same tired old shit that didn't wash the first time they said it. Educated people realise, that in this ever changing world, what is right today is not necessarily right tomorrow, which brings us back to having a choice and choice being a good thing.

 

Left to Westminster, there is no choice. There are no leaders. There are no credible anythings in Westminster at this moment in time yet you claim that educated people choose these people and this institution to run our lives, the very people and bloated institution that steal and waste so much of all our nations cash in a bid to get themselves and their friends rich? Are these educated people using their education to worm their way into their friendships so that they can benefit from the thievery? Is that how education works in this country?

 

I'm not in cloud cuckoo land, I am just able to see the wood as well as the trees.

 

Check that out, a post as long as that without the mention of a single political party. Why is that? You may ask. Well, if you're sitting comfortably, I'll begin. I have never ever chosen a single party, to love or to hate, I make my mind up on what they claim to offer. Most of the offers are bullshit but tie in with what they claim their party stands for, which is mostly bullshit as well. Once you know these things you are able to judge which is the least bullshit, a leaflet about targeting a single party/issue, or a leaflet outlining a direction to move forward as a nation in.

 

At this moment in time Westminster offers the choice of one party "of the left", we can all agree they aint' back there yet skip, one centre ground and four right of centre parties, therefore, without a shadow of a doubt, Westminster has been swallowed by its own bullshit and shit out again in an attempt to save all of the pomp and circumstance and tradition that allows the stealing and the cheating to go on while they obfuscate and bluff and bluster over how to deal with it, until the trails of the untouchables are covered and they can throw a couple of lambs to the slaughter to satisfy the people. Austerity = we suffer while they reap the rewards, that's what educated people want? Educated people want the rise of fascism? Well, some of them do, obviously, but you have to ask yourself, why are they doing this to the dafties that don't know any better? Why are they using them as pawns in their shit game?

 

I wonder if you ask yourself any of these questions, then I remember that you're educated. The time for asking questions is over, you no longer have questions that need answered, you are educated, therefore you are.

 

All that text to say "Westminster bad, Scotland great".

 

All this fascism is just bollocks.  The establishment parties, especially the SNP are running scared of Brexit.  In the case of the SNP, it reduces any real hope of winning Independence if the EU fractures apart.

 

As for Austerity, ask yourself how much of that will be needed post Independence and for how many decades.

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Roxy Hearts
2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

All that text to say "Westminster bad, Scotland great".

 

All this fascism is just bollocks.  The establishment parties, especially the SNP are running scared of Brexit.  In the case of the SNP, it reduces any real hope of winning Independence if the EU fractures apart.

 

As for Austerity, ask yourself how much of that will be needed post Independence and for how many decades.

Can you tell us all how the UK will look in the next few decades? I will take independence, thanks. I've been to college does that make me educated? 

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2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

All that text to say "Westminster bad, Scotland great".

 

All this fascism is just bollocks.  The establishment parties, especially the SNP are running scared of Brexit.  In the case of the SNP, it reduces any real hope of winning Independence if the EU fractures apart.

 

As for Austerity, ask yourself how much of that will be needed post Independence and for how many decades.

 

 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

 

It's good to see an educated view. The darling of the BBC just happens to be old NF of the old NF and all this fascism is bollocks?

 

Ask yourself why you are happy to back the very people who have already wiped 20% off the value of all your assets (and mine) before any action has even taken place? Ask yourself how this austerity has affected you directly? Are you managing to withstand a 20% drop in value of everything you own on top of this austerity? If so, what makes you think you won't be able to withstand similar in an Independent Scotland?

 

How many circles would you like to go round? That's the trouble with politics, always going round in circles in search of the object that fits the square hole. It's quite simple really, stop with the circles.

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3 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Buzzz!

 

What a pish word to use in a political sense. Vote for us because the rest are shit and we will tell them they are shit to their face so you don't have to bother yourself with that kind of thing.

 

Divisive? Politics? Nah, yer having me on.

 

 

No surprises that it's straight from the vacuous mouth of the best impersonator of a  pitbull chewing a wasp we've seen in a while.

 

As we have seen with Brexit there needs to be "losers consent" for such a major event to pass without creating the sense of alienation we have seen with Brexit. All I'm arguing for.

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2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

All that text to say "Westminster bad, Scotland great".

 

All this fascism is just bollocks.  The establishment parties, especially the SNP are running scared of Brexit.  In the case of the SNP, it reduces any real hope of winning Independence if the EU fractures apart.

 

As for Austerity, ask yourself how much of that will be needed post Independence and for how many decades.

 

What with all that hilarity I was too busy wiping my eyes dry to edit my last post in time to include this as well.

 

The SNP are an Establishment party! Wah haha hahahaha haha ahahah wahsplfghrg

 

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2 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

As we have seen with Brexit there needs to be "losers consent" for such a major event to pass without creating the sense of alienation we have seen with Brexit. All I'm arguing for.

 

 

And we have learnt from Westminster, the correct political solution is: Stuff 'em! Keep taking the money anyway. Is all I'm saying.

 

It's UK politics, division is the name of the game. What's your point? We need change? Yer damn tootin' we do.

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frankblack
21 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

 

It's good to see an educated view. The darling of the BBC just happens to be old NF of the old NF and all this fascism is bollocks?

 

Looks like I have hit a raw nerve here as not only are you ranting like a loon, but your so called examples are wrong in about six different ways.

 

21 minutes ago, Sraman said:

Ask yourself why you are happy to back the very people who have already wiped 20% off the value of all your assets (and mine) before any action has even taken place? Ask yourself how this austerity has affected you directly? Are you managing to withstand a 20% drop in value of everything you own on top of this austerity? If so, what makes you think you won't be able to withstand similar in an Independent Scotland?

 

The pound will rise once the turmoil caused by the remoaners blocking Brexit ends one way or another.

 

While we are talking currency, how little will a "Scottish pound" be worth compared to a UK pound post Indy?

 

How much extra will goods from the  UK and Europe cost to import past Scottish border customs?

 

21 minutes ago, Sraman said:

How many circles would you like to go round? That's the trouble with politics, always going round in circles in search of the object that fits the square hole. It's quite simple really, stop with the circles.

 

I am still waiting for the SNP to publish a new economic plan.

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2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Looks like I have hit a raw nerve here as not only are you ranting like a loon, but your so called examples are wrong in about six different ways.

 

 

The pound will rise once the turmoil caused by the remoaners blocking Brexit ends one way or another.

 

While we are talking currency, how little will a "Scottish pound" be worth compared to a UK pound post Indy?

 

How much extra will goods from the  UK and Europe cost to import past Scottish border customs?

 

 

I am still waiting for the SNP to publish a new economic plan.

 

 

Haha no nerve has been hit, barring maybe a funny bone.

 

I see you are doing your own circles now with your pound will rise again, Scotland is only going to nosedive and alienate itself from everyone, nonsense. It's no answer to the question posed right enough but circles are your thing, right?

 

Import/Export tax. We would work that out, in the highly unlikely event that it is ever needed, when the time is right. You ask questions that cannot be answered as the answers would be the result of a discussion between all stakeholders.

 

Where is the economic plan we are following just now?

 

You are asking for 100% guarantees on Mystic Meg predictions of the future and expect the SNP, or anyone for that matter, to give you answers to your ridiculous questions? I have asked you reasonable questions that any man, woman or child of school age in this country could answer yet you twist my simple query to concentrate on nothing really of note.

 

Cloud cuckoo land is missing you Captain Black.

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frankblack
7 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Haha no nerve has been hit, barring maybe a funny bone.

 

I see you are doing your own circles now with your pound will rise again, Scotland is only going to nosedive and alienate itself from everyone, nonsense. It's no answer to the question posed right enough but circles are your thing, right?

 

Import/Export tax. We would work that out, in the highly unlikely event that it is ever needed, when the time is right. You ask questions that cannot be answered as the answers would be the result of a discussion between all stakeholders.

 

Where is the economic plan we are following just now?

 

You are asking for 100% guarantees on Mystic Meg predictions of the future and expect the SNP, or anyone for that matter, to give you answers to your ridiculous questions? I have asked you reasonable questions that any man, woman or child of school age in this country could answer yet you twist my simple query to concentrate on nothing really of note.

 

Cloud cuckoo land is missing you Captain Black.

 

Deflect away!  What a complete load of bollocks.

 

You probably believe in fairies too if you believe what you are writing.

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2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Deflect away!  What a complete load of bollocks.

 

You probably believe in fairies too if you believe what you are writing.

 

You are the one that used your circles to get off at any stop you like yet you claim that I deflected?

 

I am still awaiting answers to simple queries that are obviously too much for your educated brain.

 

The story tells itself Captain. The story tells itself.

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frankblack
2 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

You are the one that used your circles to get off at any stop you like yet you claim that I deflected?

 

I am still awaiting answers to simple queries that are obviously too much for your educated brain.

 

The story tells itself Captain. The story tells itself.

 

I'm sorry.

 

Did you post anything plausible that will stop the Scottish economy tanking and its currency being devalued compared to the pound?

 

Import/export tax? :rofl:

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