How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, due to the fact i voted no 1st time, 

And that Scotland is stronger in the union.

Not in to lets have a wee shot then it all goes pear shaped, im out.

 

Is there any countries that have left the empire or were under British control before that are clamouring to get back to WM controlling their affairs and why Scotland would be different? Would they punish us? Is that what you’re afraid of?

[SwindonJambo]

22 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Is there any countries that have left the empire or were under British control before that are clamouring to get back to WM controlling their affairs and why Scotland would be different? Would they punish us? Is that what you’re afraid of?

 

In fairness, they were colonies (with Scots playing a big part!).  Scotland isn't a colony.

[Harry Potter]

31 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Is there any countries that have left the empire or were under British control before that are clamouring to get back to WM controlling their affairs and why Scotland would be different? Would they punish us? Is that what you’re afraid of?

Never been afraid in my life, bar getting chased after slagging a guys wife,  Sturgeon has no mandate on immigration, monies, police thats a joke, Edinburgh

has no police, last night  wee neds wi wheely bins roamin the streets, Oh wait kids are off schools ffs  How americans think this place is the bollocks  , 

[jack D and coke]

26 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Never been afraid in my life, bar getting chased after slagging a guys wife,  Sturgeon has no mandate on immigration, monies, police thats a joke, Edinburgh

has no police, last night  wee neds wi wheely bins roamin the streets, Oh wait kids are off schools ffs  How americans think this place is the bollocks  , 

In case you’ve not noticed we’re under the union btw. All these problems are not of Scotland’s making on its own. Anyway you’ll see the same issues all over the uk. But wait you’re going to come back with police Scotland being the SNP’s idea eh when it was first suggested by the conservatives. Sturgeon does have ideas on immigration I’m sure but we aren’t independent yet. Anyway I’m not here to defend the SNP, if Scotland went independent you can vote in who you like btw it won’t be SNP forever. 

[jack D and coke]

47 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

In fairness, they were colonies (with Scots playing a big part!).  Scotland isn't a colony.

Yeah Scotland did play a big part. A lot of Scots took to the British empire with gusto I’m not denying it. Scotland is treated like a colony sometimes. The talk of no indy refs until WM says. We can dissolve the union at any time btw, it was supposed to be a union of equals not one telling the other what the crack is. 

[Harry Potter]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

In case you’ve not noticed we’re under the union btw. All these problems are not of Scotland’s making on its own. Anyway you’ll see the same issues all over the uk. But wait you’re going to come back with police Scotland being the SNP’s idea eh when it was first suggested by the conservatives. Sturgeon does have ideas on immigration I’m sure but we aren’t independent yet. Anyway I’m not here to defend the SNP, if Scotland went independent you can vote in who you like btw it won’t be SNP forever. 

I never noticed we were under the union, lol, getting wide there, anyway most o my mates are pro union like me , enjoy yer day, FTH 

[SwindonJambo]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah Scotland did play a big part. A lot of Scots took to the British empire with gusto I’m not denying it. Scotland is treated like a colony sometimes. The talk of no indy refs until WM says. We can dissolve the union at any time btw, it was supposed to be a union of equals not one telling the other what the crack is. 

 

We did have a vote. Another one so soon after would be ridiculous, though perhaps there will be one in the future, should Indy Support grow further to a consistent majority.

[Harry Potter]

1 minute ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

We did have a vote. Another one so soon after would be ridiculous, though perhaps there will be one in the future, should Indy Support grow further to a consistent majority.

The lefties are living in coco  land, clown round me has the flag like braveheart,  deffo not the full shilling, im more scottish than him/her

[SwindonJambo]

Just now, Harry Potter said:

The lefties are living in coco  land, clown round me has the flag like braveheart,  deffo not the full shilling, im more scottish than him/her

 

You can't generalise like that, though there are certainly plenty of people like that around. A good few equivalent types on the No side too, though probably not as vocal. 

 

I don't want the UK to break up, but if it does, I just hope it's done sensibly with realistic expectations. I think the early years would be tough before levelling out later.  There are some very good Yes posters on here that I have a lot of time for.

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

I can't see it happening tbh, unless just within the Eurozone.

 

The changes to harmonise Corporation Tax are inevitable thanks to the likes of Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. who take advantage of low CT rates in countries like Luxembourg and Ireland to avoid tax to the disadvantage of countries where much of their income is earned. The USA is already taking steps to repatriate their share of tax. 

 

If the EU doesn’t act then the OECD may. 

 

Once CT is collectivised, the EU will turn its attention to other ‘levers’ that countries use to create a comparative advantage as they are counter to the nature of a single market. 

 

It is when we consider matters like these that some notion of a post-independence plan would be useful, not least in terms of the Scotland : EU relationship. We have to assume there will be some serious connection as, after all, we are ‘being dragged out of Europe against our will.’

 

It seems, however, that plans (and answers) are for wimps. 

 

As an aside, the involvement of Herr Juncker in setting up the Amazon Tax relationship with Luxembourg makes for a good read. 

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

In fairness, they were colonies (with Scots playing a big part!).  Scotland isn't a colony.

 

Exactly, they were not an integral part of the World’s 5th largest economy. 

[Harry Potter]

 

2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

The changes to harmonise Corporation Tax are inevitable thanks to the likes of Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. who take advantage of low CT rates in countries like Luxembourg and Ireland to avoid tax to the disadvantage of countries where much of their income is earned. The USA is already taking steps to repatriate their share of tax. 

 

If the EU doesn’t act then the OECD may. 

 

Once CT is collectivised, the EU will turn its attention to other ‘levers’ that countries use to create a comparative advantage as they are counter to the nature of a single market. 

 

It is when we consider matters like these that some notion of a post-independence plan would be useful, not least in terms of the Scotland : EU relationship. We have to assume there will be some serious connection as, after all, we are ‘being dragged out of Europe against our will.’

 

It seems, however, that plans (and answers) are for wimps. 

 

As an aside, the involvement of Herr Juncker in setting up the Amazon Tax relationship with Luxembourg makes for a good read. 

Are you in employment mate, you have quoted slavers from another big slaver, doubt you know what half of that means.

[jack D and coke]

40 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

We did have a vote. Another one so soon after would be ridiculous, though perhaps there will be one in the future, should Indy Support grow further to a consistent majority.

Normally I’d agree that another one so soon would be ridiculous but if a hard brexit happens then that is enough change of circumstances to trigger one for me. Every country in the U.K. and even Gibraltar might get what they voted for in that EU referendum, except Scotland. 

[Hasselhoff]

41 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

In case you’ve not noticed we’re under the union btw. All these problems are not of Scotland’s making on its own. Anyway you’ll see the same issues all over the uk. But wait you’re going to come back with police Scotland being the SNP’s idea eh when it was first suggested by the conservatives. Sturgeon does have ideas on immigration I’m sure but we aren’t independent yet. Anyway I’m not here to defend the SNP, if Scotland went independent you can vote in who you like btw it won’t be SNP forever. 

 

Basically anything bad in Scotland can be blamed on Westminster currently but anything good is down to great governance by the SNP-led Scottish Government. Not a day goes by without Sturgeon and her over dramatic language to describe the big-bad UK government. "Shambolic", "disarray", "catastrophe", etc. all words to encourage the major chip on the shoulder nationalists have.   

 

No country that has gone independent in the past has ever pleaded to come back to the UK but then again not many of them have been attached directly to the UK physically with 300 years of ties including shared currency / language / values etc. 

 

There is not enough of a benefit to going it alone to make it worthwhile. We are already a country and have our own flag. We are truly better together with the rest of the UK.

 

If the SNP lead the country to independence, they can't just run away when the going gets tough. Anyway, it won't get to that. We'll have a People's Vote prior to the final deal with rUK and we'll vote it down then

 

 

 

 

[Thunderstruck]

28 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

 

Are you in employment mate, you have quoted slavers from another big slaver, doubt you know what half of that means.

 

Enlighten us then, O wise one. 

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Are they things you can control if Scotland rejoins the EU after Brexit?

Of course it is. I think we'll join Norway style anyway. 

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

In fairness, they were colonies (with Scots playing a big part!).  Scotland isn't a colony.

You don't think Scotland and Ireland are/were colonies. Aye OK. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Another fossil fuel

Until we have the technological knowhow to fully harness the weather, we'll have to use these fuels. But no doubt as soon as we do, Unionists would tell us how the wind and waves are running oot. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by ri Alban

[SwindonJambo]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

You don't think Scotland and Ireland are/were colonies. Aye OK. 

 

No. Of course not. What bitter, paranoid nonsense.  We have (had) representation in Parliament and people from all parts of the UK are eligible to serve at the highest level in UK Government or Military should they be promoted into position. Citizens are free to move elsewhere in the UK or the UK altogether if so wished.

 

There was a vote to leave just 4 years ago and Scotland chose to stay.  There may well be another at some point in the future.

[SwindonJambo]

9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Until we have the technological knowhow to fully harness the weather, we'll have to use these fuels. 

 

And further damage the environment.

[jack D and coke]

18 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

Basically anything bad in Scotland can be blamed on Westminster currently but anything good is down to great governance by the SNP-led Scottish Government. Not a day goes by without Sturgeon and her over dramatic language to describe the big-bad UK government. "Shambolic", "disarray", "catastrophe", etc. all words to encourage the major chip on the shoulder nationalists have.   

 

No country that has gone independent in the past has ever pleaded to come back to the UK but then again not many of them have been attached directly to the UK physically with 300 years of ties including shared currency / language / values etc. 

 

There is not enough of a benefit to going it alone to make it worthwhile. We are already a country and have our own flag. We are truly better together with the rest of the UK.

 

If the SNP lead the country to independence, they can't just run away when the going gets tough. Anyway, it won't get to that. We'll have a People's Vote prior to the final deal with rUK and we'll vote it down then

 

 

 

 

It’s not just Nicola Sturgeon who uses that language towards this current government and you could accuse Scottish Labour and Tories of the same towards the SNP it’s six or two threes imo. 

My original point was he was critical of things that are sort of symptomatic of any city in the uk. Saying we are better together is your preferred option or opinion it’s not a fact nobody can know for sure. 

The one thing I agree with is Nicola Sturgeon has made a rod for her own back with agreeing with this people’s vote for the EU. 

[Thunderstruck]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Our natural gas will surpass oil soon. Or will we just magic up all this electricity. 

 

Gas production in the North Sea did not see the downturn associated with crude as most of the output goes for power generation and domestic use.  In fact, the ‘secret’ field of nationalist mythology is a major contributor and already part of the ‘bonus’ equation. Gas is ‘cleaner’ than coal but is still a significant producer of CO2. 

 

If you want ‘green’ energy at the point of production, there is only one 24/7 reliable source that doesn’t involve handing over large tracts of land and that is nuclear. Unless we get ourselves a new Scottish Government, and soon, we will see our nuclear generators close without replacement; the SNP having declared Scotland a ‘Nuclear-Free Zone’ and idiotically conflating bombs with civil nuclear power.

 

If they had any ambition, they would look at development of Thorium reactors and try and develop World-leading technology. Thorium is much more plentiful than Uranium and unsuited to weaponisation. As it is, the Dutch or S. Koreans will be first to reap the benefits. 

 

To put requirements in context, it is estimated that 18GW of extra generation capacity will be required when all vehicles in the U.K. switch over to electric power. The current peak is around 40GW.

 

At present, wind produces an average of around 4GW but there are a surprisingly large number of days when output hovers around zero. 

 

The attached is how France generated its electricity about 5 mins ago. That is real ‘low carbon’ power generation. Contrast that with Germany where they are ripping up large swathes of countryside for dirty brown coal to replace prematurely closed nuclear plants. 

 

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Of course it is. I think we'll join Norway style anyway. 

 

So how do you stop these companies moving their profits around to the lowest taxed economy?  I am curious as no country has been successful without these companies pulling out and taking their jobs elsewhere.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

 

 

At present, wind produces an average of around 4GW but there are a surprisingly large number of days when output hovers around zero. 

 

 

 

 

I've been involved in a few reports on the the loss of peat, and therefore carbon, for wind farms on moorland, the concrete bases, the road systmes, the metal for the fabrication of the windmills. The amount of electricity a windmill has to produce is pretty eye watering to make up for the pollution it takes to make and get it into position. Then there's the money landowners receive as an initial payment + a per annum rent, the wind farm on Cawdor Estate near Nairn saw Lord Cawdor profit by, iirc, 13/15 million and then an annual rental payment of approx a quarter of that for 25 years, that's a lot of electricity to produce to make up for that! 

Another funny thing about Scottish windfarms is that, apparently, there is no loss of birds of prey due to striking the turbines but every other country publishes thier bird kills?? 

[Harry Potter]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Enlighten us then, O wise one. 

Ive worked 30 years in manufacturing , you sound like you have done time in a left wing brainwashed book.

not being nasty mate but you dont really get real life.  

[Geoff the Mince]

3 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

The changes to harmonise Corporation Tax are inevitable thanks to the likes of Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. who take advantage of low CT rates in countries like Luxembourg and Ireland to avoid tax to the disadvantage of countries where much of their income is earned. The USA is already taking steps to repatriate their share of tax. 

 

If the EU doesn’t act then the OECD may. 

 

Once CT is collectivised, the EU will turn its attention to other ‘levers’ that countries use to create a comparative advantage as they are counter to the nature of a single market. 

 

It is when we consider matters like these that some notion of a post-independence plan would be useful, not least in terms of the Scotland : EU relationship. We have to assume there will be some serious connection as, after all, we are ‘being dragged out of Europe against our will.’

 

It seems, however, that plans (and answers) are for wimps. 

 

As an aside, the involvement of Herr Juncker in setting up the Amazon Tax relationship with Luxembourg makes for a good read. 

Juncker Iworking against the interests of a nation state comes as no surprise ,

 

why are the alarm bells not ringing in Brussels ? 

[jack D and coke]

Reckon Harry Potter doesn’t realise Thunderstruck is on his side  

[SwindonJambo]

5 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Reckon Harry Potter doesn’t realise Thunderstruck is on his side  

 

It certainly reads that way  

[Roxy Hearts]

5 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

The lefties are living in coco  land, clown round me has the flag like braveheart,  deffo not the full shilling, im more scottish than him/her

Scots who place the union first are British first then Scots. Scots who place self governance first and last are just Scots. IMO. 

[Roxy Hearts]

8 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Thanks, your well-argued points save me making a further response. 

The SNP get attacked no matter what they do hence why they pick and choose their moments. Very good management if you ask me especially with our media and unionist fanatics. What a place the UK is at times. 

[ri Alban]

10 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Reckon Harry Potter doesn’t realise Thunderstruck is on his side  

Thunderstruck, leftwing.

[ri Alban]

15 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

In fairness, they were colonies (with Scots playing a big part!).  Scotland isn't a colony.

True and false. Your average Joe from all parts of the UK had no say on the matter. 

[ri Alban]

13 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

No. Of course not. What bitter, paranoid nonsense.  We have (had) representation in Parliament and people from all parts of the UK are eligible to serve at the highest level in UK Government or Military should they be promoted into position. Citizens are free to move elsewhere in the UK or the UK altogether if so wished.

 

There was a vote to leave just 4 years ago and Scotland chose to stay.  There may well be another at some point in the future.

Is there a English secretary, to go with the Scottish, Welsh, NI and Foreign. Yes he's called the home secretary. 

 

I'm sure there's MPs from other colonies past and present. Boris is a Yank afterall or words to that affect. 

[ri Alban]

12 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Ive worked 30 years in manufacturing , you sound like you have done time in a left wing brainwashed book.

not being nasty mate but you dont really get real life.  

What do you manufacture? So I know what to stay clear of. 

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

True and false. Your average Joe from all parts of the UK had no say on the matter. 

 

Apart from a vote every few years. Just like every other democracy in the World.

Edited October 25, 2018 by SwindonJambo

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Is there a English secretary, to go with the Scottish, Welsh, NI and Foreign. Yes he's called the home secretary. 

 

I'm sure there's MPs from other colonies past and present. Boris is a Yank afterall or words to that affect. 

 

There used to be a Scottish Secretary before Holyrood was set up. The post became obsolete once Holyrood was established. 

[ri Alban]

15 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

Apart from a vote every few years. Just like every other democracy in the World.

Back then, I don't think so. 

[ri Alban]

15 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

There used to be a Scottish Secretary before Holyrood was set up. The post became obsolete once Holyrood was established. 

You better tell David Mundell. 

 

 

England's Secretary of state, please? 

Edited October 25, 2018 by ri Alban

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

You better tell David Mundell. 

 

 

England's Secretary of state, please? 

 

The Home Secretary is what you are looking for, and that is Sajid Javid.

[SwindonJambo]

52 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

You better tell David Mundell. 

 

 

England's Secretary of state, please? 

 

I’m fair minded so I humbly stand corrected. With a Scottish Parliament, it seems a pointless role to me. Given its size, I imagine England’s Secretary of State is Effectively a combo of the Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Environment, Transport and Regions.

[Phil Dunphy]

11 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Scots who place the union first are British first then Scots. Scots who place self governance first and last are just Scots. IMO. 

 

It’s not up to anyone to decide if someone else is Scottish or just British. 

 

Christ, I remember a time when politics in Scotland wasn’t so absolutely poisonous.

[SwindonJambo]

19 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

It’s not up to anyone to decide if someone else is Scottish or just British. 

 

Christ, I remember a time when politics in Scotland wasn’t so absolutely poisonous.

 

Well said. Some of the debate is bitter and poisonous with some visceral hatred around. Not good. 

[Boris]

16 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

So how do you stop these companies moving their profits around to the lowest taxed economy?  I am curious as no country has been successful without these companies pulling out and taking their jobs elsewhere.

 

Take the oil fields into state ownership?

 

Sequestrate the hardware.  Flick them the vics, so to speak.

 

May make us a pariah state, I suppose...

 

I am, of course, being slightly tongue in cheek with the above.

 

Real world, maybe look at Norway and how they manage to extract greater tax returns.  If there are resources to be extracted, then I'm sure the companies will want to do so.  At the same time, we shouldn't be bending over letting them take them for next to nothing in terms of contributing to the country that's lettingg them exploit that resource.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

It’s not up to anyone to decide if someone else is Scottish or just British. 

 

Christ, I remember a time when politics in Scotland wasn’t so absolutely poisonous.

How did come to that conclusion? Can't understand your way of thinking. Surely if you prefer to be governed by Westminster then you believe being British supercedes wanting to be governed by our own parliament which would be Scottish. It's only my opinion and I think it's fine to think like that. 

 

I've have plenty family and friends who voted No and would probably do so again. 

[pablo]

30 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

How did come to that conclusion? Can't understand your way of thinking. Surely if you prefer to be governed by Westminster then you believe being British supercedes wanting to be governed by our own parliament which would be Scottish. It's only my opinion and I think it's fine to think like that. 

 

I've have plenty family and friends who voted No and would probably do so again. 

 

With the greatest of respect what you think about this is complete nonsense. There's survey's out there that show the number of Scots who consider them British first is small in comparison to the number who will vote in favour of the Union. 

 

Keep on bandying about the labels and insinuations of what a proper Scot is though, it's working a treat.

Edited October 25, 2018 by pablo

[Roxy Hearts]

8 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

With the greatest of respect what you think about this is complete nonsense. There's survey's out there that show the number of Scots who consider them British first is small in comparison to the number who will vote in favour of the Union. 

 

Keep on bandying about the labels and insinuations of what a proper Scot is though, it's working a treat.

It's only my opinion. Jeez you Unionists get the hump at anything. Try not to be so sensitive about your nationhood. 

[pablo]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

It's only my opinion. Jeez you Unionists get the hump at anything. Try not to be so sensitive about your nationhood. 

 

It's insulting and doesn't do the claim of your Nationalism being "civic" any favours.

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's insulting and doesn't do the claim of your Nationalism being "civic" any favours.

Your interpretation needs fixed. Nationhood is what you feel and most people are civil. It's my own opinion of what I think British and Scottish is and I'm not saying I'm right. People can be both but I think if you prefer Westmister over Scotland then you are more British and that parliament isn't civil! It treats Scotland with contempt. 

[pablo]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Your interpretation needs fixed. Nationhood is what you feel and most people are civil. It's my own opinion of what I think British and Scottish is and I'm not saying I'm right. People can be both but I think if you prefer Westmister over Scotland then you are more British and that parliament isn't civil! It treats Scotland with contempt. 

 

That's big of you. Scots who don't support Independence can still consider themselves Scottish, but are of a lesser quality than those in favour? 

[frankblack]

34 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

With the greatest of respect what you think about this is complete nonsense. There's survey's out there that show the number of Scots who consider them British first is small in comparison to the number who will vote in favour of the Union. 

 

Keep on bandying about the labels and insinuations of what a proper Scot is though, it's working a treat.

 

I've had this argument with the same poster.

 

It seems the nationalists are desperate to group together everyone that isn't for them into some sort of non-existent "BritNat" term.  Its easier to throw abuse at something they can target than the differing views of every other Scottish resident.