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Bridge of Djoum

Jack the Ripper

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Bridge of Djoum

For me, on a par with the JFK assassination. I've watched and read many pieces on this and I'm still intrigued.

 

 

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Lovecraft

 

 

Probably still the best programme about it.

 

 

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shaun.lawson
14 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 

 

Probably still the best programme about it.

 

 

 

It rather sums up the problem, though, that this programme's chief suspect, Aaron Kosminski, may not even have been the "Kosminski" identified by police at the time at all.

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rudi must stay

Intriguing story, I find it horrible but also the detail and some of suspects and their backstories fascinating. It's pure fantasy, but there's also quite a good movie about the story called From Hell, starring Johnny Depp.

Edited by rudi must stay

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Bridge of Djoum
6 hours ago, rudi must stay said:

Intriguing story, I find it horrible but also the detail and some of suspects and their backstories fascinating. It's pure fantasy, but there's also quite a good movie about the story called From Hell, starring Johnny Depp.

That is a pretty good movie.

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Bridge of Djoum
8 hours ago, Lovecraft said:

 

 

Probably still the best programme about it.

 

 

Thanks for posting that. I've never seen it. 

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Bridge of Djoum
9 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

Fantastic idea for a thread. :thumb:

 

Jacob Levy for me. 

 

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/jacoblevy.html

I read something similar a few weeks ago. Does seem compelling. 

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shaun.lawson
1 hour ago, New York Fleapit said:

I read something similar a few weeks ago. Does seem compelling. 

 

Lots of good info here:

 

https://saucyjacky.wordpress.com/suspects/my-top-3-suspects/1-jacob-levy/

 

Had a clear motive: syphillis contracted from local prostitutes. Lived locally, in the same street as someone known to have been suspected and tailed by the police, and very close to where Catherine Eddowes was killed. Later committed to an asylum, matching accounts from inspectors who worked on the case. A butcher: therefore had anatomical knowledge and could slice quickly. A convicted criminal who his wife warned would become violent. Mother died just a couple of months before the murders started. Brother lived where the leather apron and the 'Juwes' graffiti was found - meaning he gave him shelter there?

 

Matched Elizabeth Long and Joseph Levy's eyewitness testimonies. But the latter was scared witless - both at the scene and later. Did he know his namesake? And was he - and I think this is crucial to the whole thing - rightly terrified for the area's Jewish community if he gave the police more info? If Jacob was Jack (and if we take the two most famous letters as authentic, even that's another strike against him: his name), there's no chance the police would've ever publicly revealed his identity. Imagine the repercussions for local Jews if a man called Jacob Levy was exposed as the killer!

 

Maybe the thing that's always haunted me most about the Ripper is both what he did to poor Mary Kelly, and that the killings stopped immediately afterwards. It's almost as though he drove himself beyond insanity that horrific night. So while it's undoubtedly odd that Levy wasn't committed to Stone until 1890, I think it is explicable. Kelly's death was so shocking - the only young, attractive victim, the only one who wasn't a street prostitute - that on some impossible to properly articulate level, he may even have felt guilty. 

 

Jacob Levy is, by a considerable distance, the most compelling candidate I've ever come across. Nobody knows who Aaron Kosminski actually was. The Royal conspiracy is laughable. The James Maybrick diaries were a hoax. Montague Druitt lived on the other side of London and was in south-west England the day after two of the murders. Francis Tumblety was a homosexual - and as with Carl Feigenbaum, I have such a hard time imagining Jack escaping to the US in full view of the watching world. Patricia Cornwell's obsession with Walter Sickert is, frankly, completely batshit. George Chapman did kill women, but never in this way. And the idea that Joe Barnett, Mary Kelly's boyfriend, was the killer is, well, almost as insane as Jack himself clearly was.

 

But the thing about Ripperology is it's such a cottage industry that we'll never know for sure. How can anything more compelling than is already known somehow emerge 130 years and more after the event? It can't - and the industry has too many authors who need Jack's identity to remain shrouded in mystery. Because if there was ever an absolute consensus on who he was, that'd be that: which just isn't in their interests. Or, perhaps, anyone else's either. 

Edited by shaun.lawson

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The_razors_edge

I watched a programme on this the other night and the investigator was convinced Charles lechmere was Jack the Ripper. 

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shaun.lawson
11 minutes ago, The_razors_edge said:

I watched a programme on this the other night and the investigator was convinced Charles lechmere was Jack the Ripper. 

 

Is there anything implicating Lechmere other than that he was the first man to find Polly Nichols' body? Not only that, but after Kelly's grisly slaughter, apparently he went home and lived a normal family life for another 32 years!  Please.

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Lovecraft

I've been obsessed by Jack the Ripper for years.

 

If you are looking for books about it, get one by Paul Begg.  Jack the Ripper. The Facts.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00OZRQWGU/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

 

£3.29 for the kindle version.

 

He does the opposite of what most JTR books do, and mainly ignores the suspects.  

 

 

Edited by Lovecraft

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been here before

Jack the Ripper- first possible murder April 1888

 

Celtic- first game May 1888.

 

Just saying.

Edited by been here before

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Lovecraft
5 minutes ago, been here before said:

Jack the Ripper- first murder April 1888

 

Celtic- first game May 1888.

 

Just saying.

Are you suggesting it was Brother Walfrid?

 

 

Doubtful, as serial killers usually kill within their own sexual preference group.

 

 

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Bridge of Djoum
6 minutes ago, been here before said:

Jack the Ripper- first possible murder April 1888

 

Celtic- first game May 1888.

 

Just saying.

Brother Walfrid? Interesting...

 

I always think the space between murders is a defining clue. That and times of the day. The way the patterns develop is fascinating. Even the most careful Serial killer will leave a very distinct and noticeable pattern without realizing it. 

 

Also, with Jack. He stopped at 5 and wasn't apprehended. Died? Finished a specific plan? Caught but hushed up? Intriguing stuff.

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Bridge of Djoum
4 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

Are you suggesting it was Brother Walfrid?

 

 

Doubtful, as serial killers usually kill within their own sexual preference group.

 

 

:rofl:

 

Love it.

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Lovecraft
4 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

Brother Walfrid? Interesting...

 

I always think the space between murders is a defining clue. That and times of the day. The way the patterns develop is fascinating. Even the most careful Serial killer will leave a very distinct and noticeable pattern without realizing it. 

 

Also, with Jack. He stopped at 5 and wasn't apprehended. Died? Finished a specific plan? Caught but hushed up? Intriguing stuff.

 

They think there was more than 5.  Martha Tabram being at least one more, possibly the first murder he done.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Tabram

 

He most probably also attacked several more people before actually killing too.

 

My guess is, he was probably arrested after the Kelly murder, but for something unrelated.  The escalation was getting out of control, just as with most serial killers.

 

Serial killers don't just stop.  They may have a break for a bit, but they never stop.

 

 

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Rupert Pupkin
4 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Is there anything implicating Lechmere other than that he was the first man to find Polly Nichols' body? Not only that, but after Kelly's grisly slaughter, apparently he went home and lived a normal family life for another 32 years!  Please.

Apart from the fact he lied to the police twice. Was with the body longer than he stated. Had reason to be in the vicinity of every murder, and could easily walk the streets in a blood stained apron due to his job .... then no, there is nothing implicating him..

Edited by Rupert Pupkin

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Bridge of Djoum
Just now, Lovecraft said:

 

They think there was more than 5.  Martha Tabram being at least one more, possibly the first murder he done.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Tabram

 

He most probably also attacked several more people before actually killing too.

 

My guess is, he was probably arrested after the Kelly murder, but for something unrelated.  The escalation was getting out of control, just as with most serial killers.

 

Serial killers don't just stop.  They may have a break for a bit, but they never stop.

 

 

You sound like a fan of serial killers. Good man! Agreed, they never stop, it's a compulsion. 

Cheers for the Tabram heads-up, I hadn't read about her before.

 

I don't think we have a dedicated serial killer thread. Need to change that.

 

 

 

 

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shaun.lawson
4 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 

They think there was more than 5.  Martha Tabram being at least one more, possibly the first murder he done.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Tabram

 

He most probably also attacked several more people before actually killing too.

 

My guess is, he was probably arrested after the Kelly murder, but for something unrelated.  The escalation was getting out of control, just as with most serial killers.

 

Serial killers don't just stop.  They may have a break for a bit, but they never stop.

 

 

 

I agree, at least somewhat, about Tabram. Her, Alice McKenzie and conceivably Frances Coles were all possibly Ripper victims. But in the latter two cases, it seems doubtful, because nothing compared in sheer frenzy and horror to what happened to Kelly.

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Bridge of Djoum

There was a would be SK apprehended recently, I forget the specifics but he claimed he wanted to kill a certain amount before ''retiring''. I think there was little chance he'd have stopped even after he'd hit his target.

 

 

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Rupert Pupkin
13 hours ago, rudi must stay said:

Intriguing story, I find it horrible but also the detail and some of suspects and their backstories fascinating. It's pure fantasy, but there's also quite a good movie about the story called From Hell, starring Johnny Depp.

From Hell is loosely  based on the Alan Moore Graphic Novel, which is also a great read.

Edited by Rupert Pupkin

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shaun.lawson
2 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

You sound like a fan of serial killers. Good man! Agreed, they never stop, it's a compulsion. 

Cheers for the Tabram heads-up, I hadn't read about her before.

 

I don't think we have a dedicated serial killer thread. Need to change that.

 

 

 

 

 

Complicating matters still further is that during the same period, there was a different serial killer who went around decapitating women. :o The Pinchin Street torso, who was never identified, was found in Whitechapel in September 1889, and her death was linked to similar cases in Rainham, Chelsea and Whitehall.

 

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Bridge of Djoum
Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

I agree, at least somewhat, about Tabram. Her, Alice McKenzie and conceivably Frances Coles were all possibly Ripper victims. But in the latter two cases, it seems doubtful, because nothing compared in sheer frenzy and horror to what happened to Kelly.

Perhaps Kelly and the circumstances of her death, (indoors, private) sated his ultimate aim or desire and he went back to his ''routine''. He had time and privacy to carry out that sheer brutality without the need to hurry in fear of being apprehended. Unlikely but a decent talking point.

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Bridge of Djoum
3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Complicating matters still further is that during the same period, there was a different serial killer who went around decapitating women. :o The Pinchin Street torso, who was never identified, was found in Whitechapel in September 1889, and her death was linked to similar cases in Rainham, Chelsea and Whitehall.

 

Hmmm. Bit of a distance between those 3 locations given SK's tend to operate in a small area. Of course there are notable exceptions, Ted Bundy for instance.

 

OK, nap time. Someone start a SK thread. 

Edited by New York Fleapit

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shaun.lawson
2 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

Perhaps Kelly and the circumstances of her death, (indoors, private) sated his ultimate aim or desire and he went back to his ''routine''. He had time and privacy to carry out that sheer brutality without the need to hurry in fear of being apprehended. Unlikely but a decent talking point.

 

You should check out the Casebook Message Board. It's basically a bunch of folk with their own chief suspect who spend their time angrily destroying anyone with a different chief suspect. :laugh: Incredible treasure trove of detail on there. 

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Bridge of Djoum
4 minutes ago, Rupert Pupkin said:

From Hell is loosely  based on the Alan Moore Graphic Novel, which is also a great read.

Movie was excellent. Is the book that good? If so, I'll trust your recommendation and buy it.

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Bridge of Djoum
Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

You should check out the Casebook Message Board. It's basically a bunch of folk with their own chief suspect who spend their time angrily destroying anyone with a different chief suspect. :laugh: Incredible treasure trove of detail on there. 

Sounds like a ramped up version of here! 

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shaun.lawson
13 minutes ago, Rupert Pupkin said:

Apart from the fact he lied to the police twice. Was with the body longer than he stated. Had reason to be in the vicinity of every murder, and could easily walk the streets in a blood stained apron due to his job .... then no, there is nothing implicating him..

 

That's really not enough. I could quite understand why anyone would lie to the police given the frenzied atmosphere, and given he'll have known he'd come under suspicion purely because of discovering Nichols' body. It's the "went back home to a normal life for 32 years" thing I just can't get past. 

 

In many ways, my sympathies are with any adult living in Whitechapel during that time. The women, because so many were murdered. The men, because practically anyone there finds themselves suspected well over a century later. 

Edited by shaun.lawson

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Lovecraft
16 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

There was a would be SK apprehended recently, I forget the specifics but he claimed he wanted to kill a certain amount before ''retiring''. I think there was little chance he'd have stopped even after he'd hit his target.

 

 

 

intro-1512144586.jpg

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Bridge of Djoum
Just now, Lovecraft said:

 

intro-1512144586.jpg

Ha! Excellent.

 

 

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Lovecraft
19 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

You sound like a fan of serial killers. Good man! Agreed, they never stop, it's a compulsion. 

Cheers for the Tabram heads-up, I hadn't read about her before.

 

I don't think we have a dedicated serial killer thread. Need to change that.

 

 

 

 

 Been obsessed for years.

 

Literally read hundreds of books about it.

 

Girlfriend is terrified.  :-)

 

 

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shaun.lawson
2 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 Been obsessed for years.

 

Literally read hundreds of books about it.

 

Girlfriend is terrified.  :-)

 

 

 

If I ever met Martin O'Neill, I'd ask him three questions.

 

1. So Martin - how exactly did Andy Webster headbutt John Hartson's elbow? 

 

2. You left Norwich after only a few months... WHY? 

 

3. Who was Jack the Ripper?

 

He's obsessed with JTR and serial killers too. It's been his hobby away from football since he was a player. 

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Bridge of Djoum
3 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 Been obsessed for years.

 

Literally read hundreds of books about it.

 

Girlfriend is terrified.  :-)

 

 

Just tell here you're more the Gary Ridgway type and she's perfectly safe as long as she's putting out several times a day.

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Bridge of Djoum
Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

If I ever met Martin O'Neill, I'd ask him three questions.

 

1. So Martin - how exactly did Andy Webster headbutt John Hartson's elbow? 

 

2. You left Norwich after only a few months... WHY? 

 

3. Who was Jack the Ripper?

 

He's obsessed with JTR and serial killers too. It's been his hobby away from football since he was a player. 

TBF I left Norwich after about 3 hours. Horrible place. I was in a boozer nicknamed 'the Murderers''? That wasn't bad.

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shaun.lawson
2 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

TBF I left Norwich after about 3 hours. Horrible place. I was in a boozer nicknamed 'the Murderers''? That wasn't bad.

 

Gardeners Arms! :thumbsup: A favourite haunt of many of us during uni days.

 

"Horrible place"? You philistine. But the more people don't acknowledge Norwich, the more the locals have the last laugh, because it remains unspoilt. :) 

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Lovecraft
5 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

Just tell here you're more the Gary Ridgway type and she's perfectly safe as long as she's putting out several times a day.

 

Hahaha

 

Or Brudos.   She enjoys going to the shoe shops with me though.

 

 

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Bridge of Djoum
1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Gardeners Arms! :thumbsup: A favourite haunt of many of us during uni days.

 

"Horrible place"? You philistine. But the more people don't acknowledge Norwich, the more the locals have the last laugh, because it remains unspoilt. :) 

And the less outsiders, the more the locals ''keep it in the family''.

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rudi must stay
46 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

If I ever met Martin O'Neill, I'd ask him three questions.

 

1. So Martin - how exactly did Andy Webster headbutt John Hartson's elbow? 

 

2. You left Norwich after only a few months... WHY? 

 

3. Who was Jack the Ripper?

 

He's obsessed with JTR and serial killers too. It's been his hobby away from football since he was a player. 

 

How strange. That's good trivia

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Rupert Pupkin
3 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

That's really not enough. I could quite understand why anyone would lie to the police given the frenzied atmosphere, and given he'll have known he'd come under suspicion purely because of discovering Nichols' body. It's the "went back home to a normal life for 32 years" thing I just can't get past. 

 

In many ways, my sympathies are with any adult living in Whitechapel during that time. The women, because so many were murdered. The men, because practically anyone there finds themselves suspected well over a century later. 

Well a QC and a detective begged to differ, and they believe he had committed more murders.

I am not saying he was, but when presented with what was unearthed in this research, he is as good suspect . He had good reason to be in these areas at the specific times, had local knowledge, and was able to just blend in, rather than just disappear as other suspects allegedly did. 

I guess the fascinating thing is, we will never know for sure..

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FORTHCLYDE

It was Charles Lechmere.

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shaun.lawson
9 minutes ago, Rupert Pupkin said:

Well a QC and a detective begged to differ, and they believe he had committed more murders.

I am not saying he was, but when presented with what was unearthed in this research, he is as good suspect . He had good reason to be in these areas at the specific times, had local knowledge, and was able to just blend in, rather than just disappear as other suspects allegedly did. 

I guess the fascinating thing is, we will never know for sure..

 

"Hello Mr QC and Mr Detective. We're making a show about Jack the Ripper. As you know, it's all a bit of fun to anyone interested now - so if we pay you x, can you play along and insist we've definitely found the killer, and that Lechmere/Tumblety/Feigenbaum/Maybrick/Kosminski/Sickert/the Royal doctor (delete according to programme) would clearly be up on a murder trial if he lived now? You will? Cheers - it'll make all the difference".

 

:P 

 

Edited by shaun.lawson

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Rupert Pupkin

You’re such a cynic Shaun... ????

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Lovecraft
27 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

"Hello Mr QC and Mr Detective. We're making a show about Jack the Ripper. As you know, it's all a bit of fun to anyone interested now - so if we pay you x, can you play along and insist we've definitely found the killer, and that Lechmere/Tumblety/Feigenbaum/Maybrick/Kosminski/Sickert/the Royal doctor (delete according to programme) would clearly be up on a murder trial if he lived now? You will? Cheers - it'll make all the difference".

 

:P 

 

 

Or, which book are you trying to sell with a new suspect?

 

 

 

 

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Lovecraft

Here is another good one written and narrated by Paul Begg.

 

Includes Tabram and Smith.

 

 

Edited by Lovecraft

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Bridge of Djoum
43 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

Here is another good one written and narrated by Paul Begg.

 

Includes Tabram and Smith.

 

 

Cheers mate. My viewing for later.

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Lovecraft
10 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

Cheers mate. My viewing for later.

 

Begg is probably the best "Ripperologist" as he is not really that interested in suspects, more the facts and criminal investigation.

 

He sells books based on knowledge, not speculation.

 

 

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Lovecraft

Here is a pile of podcasts featuring Begg and other people.

 

Most have books and theories to sell, but there are still lots of good discussions.

 

http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

 

 

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Bridge of Djoum
6 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

Here is a pile of podcasts featuring Begg and other people.

 

Most have books and theories to sell, but there are still lots of good discussions.

 

http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

 

 

I just subscribed to the Rippercast. Looking forward to that. A big scotch in the den later I think!

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