Junior Football

[RobboM]

I know a few on here also follow Junior football but for those that don't there's an interesting development in the east of Scotland currently.

A number of Junior clubs look like they are leaving the confines of Junior football to apply to join the East of Scotland (EoS) league. This is the lowest level in the SFA pyramid, which could lead to promotion to the Lowland Leage which, in turn, could lead to promotion to the SPFL Division 2 via playoff just like Edinburgh City. Last season the East Superleague champions, Kelty Hearts, left to join the EoS League and are close to promotion to the Lowland League in their first season. Rumours of up to another 12 teams defecting from East Juniors to apply to the EoS league may leave the East Juniors with a much weaker set up and also leaves behind some of the east biggest names, Linlithgow Rose and Bo'ness amongst them, with the prospect of being big fish in a shrinking pond and a long way down the pyramid should they choose to join in the future.

The Scottish Junior Football Association (SJFA) has long set itself against the pyramid in Scottish football and maintained that Junior football is best off keeping itself separate and, of course, run under the auspices of the SJFA. In the West/Ayrshire this line is still holding strong, possibly because the South of Scotland entry level league is almost exclusively Dumfries & Galloway and the West juniors (Ayrshire in particular) regard themselves as a much higher standard.

So is there a future for a separate Junior football? Will the move to the pyramid weaken/strengthen non league football in Scotland?

 

[Dr Ian Malcolm]

The Juniors are inexplicably allowed to have their cake and eat it by entering the Scottish Cup and having their own version, while having no interest in contributing to the wider game.

 

No problem with those wanting to stay Junior, but this has been a long time coming and good on the clubs showing some ambition.

[Footballfirst]

The SJFA conducted a survey of clubs recently and the majority view was to seek discussions with the SFA about joining the pyramid.

 

Clubs who I believe have expressed an interest in joining the "senior" ranks include

Super league - Bonnyrigg, Hill of Beath, Dundonald , Camelon

Premier - Blackburn, Musselburgh, Haddington, Tranent and Dalkeith

South - Edinburgh Utd, Easthouses and Crossgates

West - Clydebank, Dunipace

Amateur - Inverkeithing (Hilfield Swifts)

[Footballfirst]

Rutherglen Glencairn‏ @GlencairnFC Mar 29

A recent survey of member clubs by the SJFA produced a result of 99 clubs for and 55 clubs against joining the SFA pyramid system. As a result, the SJFA will now hold discussions with the SFA and its member associations to try to find an agreed way of accommodating this proposal.

[RobboM]

20 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Rutherglen Glencairn‏ @GlencairnFC Mar 29

A recent survey of member clubs by the SJFA produced a result of 99 clubs for and 55 clubs against joining the SFA pyramid system. As a result, the SJFA will now hold discussions with the SFA and its member associations to try to find an agreed way of accommodating this proposal.

And in the meantime possibly a tipping point number of clubs in the East appear to have already voted with their feet.

In the West the results were a little more lukewarm and the SJFA has a history of hostility or outright opposition to the integrated pyramid. The SJFA appear to have as their priority in the above discussions their own continued existence as an organisation within non league football pyramid.

[Paolo]

4 hours ago, Dr Ian Malcolm said:

The Juniors are inexplicably allowed to have their cake and eat it by entering the Scottish Cup and having their own version, while having no interest in contributing to the wider game.

 

No problem with those wanting to stay Junior, but this has been a long time coming and good on the clubs showing some ambition.

Pretty much this. 

 

You are either a Junior side, or a Senior one. 

 

You can’t expect to choose to be a Junior side, but also expect to take part in Senior competitions, such as the Scottish Cup, without meeting tbe same Senior obligations.  

[MacDonald Jardine]

9 minutes ago, Paolo said:

Pretty much this. 

 

You are either a Junior side, or a Senior one. 

 

You can’t expect to choose to be a Junior side, but also expect to take part in Senior competitions, such as the Scottish Cup, without meeting tbe same Senior obligations.  

To be fair I think the SFA were keen to involve the Juniors in the Scottish Cup.

[Paolo]

1 minute ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

To be fair I think the SFA were keen to involve the Juniors in the Scottish Cup.

Quite possibly.  They have the best of both worlds as a result, though. 

 

Having said that, Auchinleck Talbot gave us more of a game than Hibs did. 

[Tasavallan]

5 hours ago, RobboM said:

Last season the East Superleague champions, Kelty Hearts, left to join the EoS League and are close to promotion to the Lowland League in their first season.
 

 

Kelty have still to play LTHV home & away and Hutchie are unbeaten with 4 games in hand.

 

Winning the EOS Premier Division does not automatically result in promotion to the Lowland League.  Hutchie have won the league on a number of ocassions but have not been accepted by the Lowland League due to the state of Saughton Enclosure. While teams like BSC and Edusport were fast tracked into the league to add more West of Scotland teams.

[RobboM]

10 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

 

Kelty have still to play LTHV home & away and Hutchie are unbeaten with 4 games in hand.

 

Winning the EOS Premier Division does not automatically result in promotion to the Lowland League.  Hutchie have won the league on a number of ocassions but have not been accepted by the Lowland League due to the state of Saughton Enclosure. While teams like BSC and Edusport were fast tracked into the league to add more West of Scotland teams.

Fair point Tasavallan, the head to head matches should settle the league. I understood though that Kelty are in a position to go up if they were to win

[Hungry hippo]

1 minute ago, RobboM said:

Fair point Tasavallan, the head to head matches should settle the league. I understood though that Kelty are in a position to go up if they were to win

 

Yeah, both teams have 100% records although Kelty have a far better goal difference.

[Footballfirst]

31 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

 

Kelty have still to play LTHV home & away and Hutchie are unbeaten with 4 games in hand.

 

Winning the EOS Premier Division does not automatically result in promotion to the Lowland League.  Hutchie have won the league on a number of ocassions but have not been accepted by the Lowland League due to the state of Saughton Enclosure. While teams like BSC and Edusport were fast tracked into the league to add more West of Scotland teams.

 

I think LTHV is Kelty's bogey team.  LTHV have already beaten Kelty twice this season, both 1-0, in cup competitions. The first was in the big Scottish Cup and the second in the League cup semi.  Kelty have also lost in cup competitions to Spartans 3-2 and to Threave on penalties after a 2-2 draw.

 

In fact they have lost every tight game they have played.  In all the games they have won, the have always had at least at least a two goal margin.

 

Kelty has a good set up at New Central Park and are looking to put in a new stand for next season. 

[Dunks]

49 minutes ago, Tasavallan said:

While teams like BSC and Edusport were fast tracked into the league to add more West of Scotland teams.

 

I'm sure BSC play home games in Alloa and Edusport in Annan. Hardly West of Scotland. 

[Stanley_]

10 minutes ago, Dunks said:

 

I'm sure BSC play home games in Alloa and Edusport in Annan. Hardly West of Scotland. 

BSC Glasgow started off in the Lowland League groundsharing with Maryhill and later moved to Alloa.  

 

Edusport used to play in Hamilton but moved to playing their matches in Annan.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Stanley_

[DC_92]

1 hour ago, Tasavallan said:

 

Kelty have still to play LTHV home & away and Hutchie are unbeaten with 4 games in hand.

 

Winning the EOS Premier Division does not automatically result in promotion to the Lowland League.  Hutchie have won the league on a number of ocassions but have not been accepted by the Lowland League due to the state of Saughton Enclosure. While teams like BSC and Edusport were fast tracked into the league to add more West of Scotland teams.

 

Kelty meet the entry requirements and I believe LTHV have a chance of meeting them by the end of the season. 

 

Edusport got promoted because they won the South of Scotland league and met the requirements, avoiding a play-off because LTHV didn't meet them.

[jamie1874]

The SFA have basically forced the hand of junior clubs by moving the goal posts.

 

A few junior clubs, Banks of Dee, Linlithgow and Girvan are all SFA member clubs. Many other clubs were working towards this and then the door got slammed shut stopping anyone else becoming a member without joining the pyramid.

 

This meant these 3 clubs got annual entry to the Scottish regardless of how well they did at junior football, something that brings financial reward for them while others can’t get that benefit.

 

That has without a doubt caused the change of the approach in the East as with kelty going and then Bonnyrigg looking to move it really was the big clubs wanting to leave. 

 

Meawhile in in the West the big junior sides do not want to play in a Lower standard league, travelling down to Dumfries and Galloway etc but recognise that some form of sensible pyramid is required.

 

As someone who watches a lot of junior football I would like to see some balance where the Scottish junior cup still exists, possibly evolving to a non league cup like the FA vase that would include all sides outside the top 4 divisions then from a league point of view some sensible merging of the south of Scotland league with the West juniors. The reality of that merger is pretty much all of the teams in SoSL would struggle in the West district leagues. 

[LarrysRightFoot]

This is interesting stuff.  Especially when allied to what seems to be the SFA or is it SPFLs evolving view that there are too many professional clubs in Scotland.

 

I can see us moving to a new structure in the near future of 2 or 3 professional/national league divisions with a pyramid set up of regional/non league divisions  below it.

Edited April 9, 2018 by LarrysRightFoot

[Siphiwe Tshabalala]

Non-League seems massive in this country in terms of Juniors and Seniors (Lowland and Highland).

 

If done correctly and sensibly by all parties concerned, it could be really great. 

[Hairy Nugget]

The junior teams are obviously a step up in quality with perhaps the exception of Lthv and leith.Although as previously stated their grounds are no where near compliant with lowland league.I think the existing eos teams are going to be pretty fed up getting beat 10-0 most weeks from junior teams.Pretty sure they will have to restructure it somehow as i don’t think the junior teams genuinely want to play in the eos just use it as a means to quickly move up the leagues.

[letsalldothebeattie]

Maybe it’s just me but does all this with some of the juniors wanting to breakaway and go into the senior set up not seem like the perfect time to restructure the game for the better up here i.e bigger top flight (16/18/20 team league) and maybe merge the other 3 divisions into 1 maybe 2 slightly bigger leagues and then have like a non league conference below that with the other senior sides like lowland, east of Scotland, highland and then also the juniors that want to be part of a league pyramid. And for the juniors that don’t still have the junior league for them maybe with the option if they win the top league of the juniors to take up a place in the bottom level of the senior game if not then remain a junior side. 

 

As as I said maybe just me but it seems like the perfect time to set this all in motion. Just a thought 

[Footballfirst]

Bonnyrigg has just formally announced that they are planning to join the EOSFL next season.

 

http://www.bonnyriggrosefc.co.uk/teams/118321/news/club-update-2268023.html

[norrie1952]

Just listened to sportsound .The only person worth listening to was Jim Leishman.He was talking about Kelty Hearts and junior football.

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Bonnyrigg has just formally announced that they are planning to join the EOSFL next season.

 

http://www.bonnyriggrosefc.co.uk/teams/118321/news/club-update-2268023.html

Amazing given they have been stalwarts of the junior scene for 120 years. I think they will miss the local derbies. 

[Footballfirst]

On 4/9/2018 at 19:25, Tasavallan said:

 

Kelty have still to play LTHV home & away and Hutchie are unbeaten with 4 games in hand.

 

Winning the EOS Premier Division does not automatically result in promotion to the Lowland League.  Hutchie have won the league on a number of ocassions but have not been accepted by the Lowland League due to the state of Saughton Enclosure. While teams like BSC and Edusport were fast tracked into the league to add more West of Scotland teams.

 

LTHV finally lost their 100% record at the weekend, when they drew 5-5 with Leith Athletic, after leading 3-0 at one point.

 

I watched Kelty beat Tynecastle 2-0 on Tuesday night at Riccarton, although I thought Tynecastle were unlucky to come away with nothing.

 

It leaves Kelty with their 100% record intact with just two games to play (both against LTHV).  I might go along and watch Saturday's game, where a Kelty win will seal the league title.

[systemx]

Tranent Juniors formed in 1911 voted to apply for EoS membership at an EGM last Sunday.Im a season ticket holder but couldnt make it.

[151]

On 09/04/2018 at 19:03, Paolo said:

Quite possibly.  They have the best of both worlds as a result, though. 

 

Having said that, Auchinleck Talbot gave us more of a game than Hibs did. 

 

Going to watch my first Juniors game at the weekend, Lochee United v Auchinleck Talbot.

 

1-0 Lochee from first leg. Got a couple of pals that play for Lochee should be good.

[systemx]

BTW Both Speedie and Allan joined Hearts from Tranent 

[Tote]

Bonnyrigg Dalkeith Easthouses Tranent Newtongrange Edinburgh United and Crossgates have all been confirmed as going EoS

[Footballfirst]

14 minutes ago, Tote said:

Bonnyrigg Dalkeith Easthouses Tranent Newtongrange Edinburgh United and Crossgates have all been confirmed as going EoS

 

Camelon have also issued a statement this evening.

http://www.camelonjuniors.co.uk/chairmans-update/

Edited April 19, 2018 by Footballfirst

[poultry]

Just now, Tote said:

Bonnyrigg Dalkeith Easthouses Tranent Newtongrange Edinburgh United and Crossgates have all been confirmed as going EoS

Led to believe Arniston Rangers will apply next year

[neilr61]

Stupid question probably but what's the difference between junior & EOS/lowland league?

[sadj]

2 hours ago, neilr61 said:

Stupid question probably but what's the difference between junior & EOS/lowland league?

I think with the lowland league you become part of the sfa pyramid so can progress all the way upto the ppremiership. If your in the junior leagues your excluded from that as you cant gain promotion to the lowland league

[Kiwidoug]

Kelty Hearts seem very well set up.  Very good website, tremendous name, and real money and momentum behind them.  

 

I don't think there is any impediment on them borrowing from the banks if required, unlike Hibs, and they have real momentum at present.

 

Jim Leishman is a stalwart backer and I just feel they are going places.

[Meadows]

Leith Athletic have done fantastically well this season , 3 semi finals , 2 finals and 3rd in the league behind a very strong and experienced Kelty & LTHV . 

As well as being the team to ruin LTHV’s 100% record in the league ! 

[The Treasurer]

Am I right in thinking the current set-up (Juniors/Seniors) is only in Scotland.

England would seem to have all levels under one umbrella, allowing even the lowest ranks clubs to have a path to the top, should they have the ambition to do so.

Seems a much more sensible format. 

[Matthew Le Tissier]

12 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

Am I right in thinking the current set-up (Juniors/Seniors) is only in Scotland.

England would seem to have all levels under one umbrella, allowing even the lowest ranks clubs to have a path to the top, should they have the ambition to do so.

Seems a much more sensible format. 

Exactly that, for example AFC Wimbledon and Fleetwood Town have made their way up the leagues from non league obscurity 

[Stanley_]

9 hours ago, neilr61 said:

Stupid question probably but what's the difference between junior & EOS/lowland league?

A quirk of Scottish football where there have been two separate systems running for a long time.   Seniors and juniors.  Lowland, EoS, SoS and Highland League are part of the seniors along with the SPFL (with relegation from the league finally opening up in recent years).  

 

The juniors are in their own separate system with their own junior cup.  With the pyramid starting to develop, Kelty moved across to the seniors last year and many other East juniors are set to move this year.  Junior set up is divided into East, West and North.  The north is the weakest one (being overshadowed by the Highland League)

 

The East, West, North and also junior cup winners started getting a place on the senior Scottish cup about ten years ago.  We've played Auchinleck and Hibs have played Irvine Meadow in that time.  

Edited April 20, 2018 by Stanley_

[Clark Griswold]

Anyone know if Musselburgh is planning on moving to EoS?

[Stanley_]

21 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Anyone know if Musselburgh is planning on moving to EoS?

They are rumoured to be applying.

 

Bonnyrigg, Camelon, Blackburn, Tranent, Dalkeith and an amateur team (Inverkeithing) all announced they are applying.  Rumoured to be 15 teams in total applying with around 14 being junior.

[Beast Boy]

Two professional divisions, 20 in Premier, 22 in Championship. Everyone else in the pyramid. Let teams find their place naturally. Could even see some great rivalries develop in a decade’s time. Edinburgh City v Edinburgh United in a play off etc. 

[Clark Griswold]

26 minutes ago, Stanley_ said:

They are rumoured to be applying.

 

Bonnyrigg, Camelon, Blackburn, Tranent, Dalkeith and an amateur team (Inverkeithing) all announced they are applying.  Rumoured to be 15 teams in total applying with around 14 being junior.

 

Thanks. 

[The Old Tolbooth]

7 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

Kelty Hearts seem very well set up.  Very good website, tremendous name, and real money and momentum behind them.  

 

I don't think there is any impediment on them borrowing from the banks if required, unlike Hibs, and they have real momentum at present.

 

Jim Leishman is a stalwart backer and I just feel they are going places.

 

I live in Rosyth and you hear a lot about Kelty Hearts in this area, they're making huge waves around here and there's genuine excitement in the area for them, they seem like a cracking wee set up. 

 

I also come from Galashiels, and know a few people who have a lot to do with the running of Gala Fairydean Rovers (no mean feat in rugger country), and they're a tad worried as they're already flirting with relegation this season, and can't really afford to drop down a league, but the general consensus is that they're wondering where clubs like Kelty Hearts get all their wealth from, because GFR have been running for decades on absolute buttons, and have missed out on election to the league 3 or 4 times now, one time especially when we all thought it was a shoe in to be granted league access when Ross Cty and ICT were admitted, that was a sore day for the town. 

[jambo-rocker]

42 minutes ago, johnmitchell said:

 

I live in Rosyth and you hear a lot about Kelty Hearts in this area, they're making huge waves around here and there's genuine excitement in the area for them, they seem like a cracking wee set up. 

 

I also come from Galashiels, and know a few people who have a lot to do with the running of Gala Fairydean Rovers (no mean feat in rugger country), and they're a tad worried as they're already flirting with relegation this season, and can't really afford to drop down a league, but the general consensus is that they're wondering where clubs like Kelty Hearts get all their wealth from, because GFR have been running for decades on absolute buttons, and have missed out on election to the league 3 or 4 times now, one time especially when we all thought it was a shoe in to be granted league access when Ross Cty and ICT were admitted, that was a sore day for the town. 

 

Probably be because of this. They also have corporate for every home game and a bar open over the whole weekend making money for them. It's no surprise they have a decent wad of cash behind them.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43821041

 

Kelty's population has shrunk by almost a third to 6,000 following the demise of the coal industry, but the football club have benefitted from £7m of council and business investment in facilities that include a new artificial playing surface and a main stand with seating for 350 to be built this summer.

[The Old Tolbooth]

19 minutes ago, jambo-rocker said:

 

Probably be because of this. They also have corporate for every home game and a bar open over the whole weekend making money for them. It's no surprise they have a decent wad of cash behind them.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43821041

 

Kelty's population has shrunk by almost a third to 6,000 following the demise of the coal industry, but the football club have benefitted from £7m of council and business investment in facilities that include a new artificial playing surface and a main stand with seating for 350 to be built this summer.

 

Cheers for that mate, good find. 

[Restonbabe]

isnt it a crying shame that only now the junior/senior set up now want to break away to join the SPFL set up.

 

something i really hope bears fruit in the next 2-5 years. because only this will really implement change for the SPFL set up.

Lets be honest you could easily put league 1 & 2 together and have a proper 20 team division with a chance to gain promotion to the championship.

With the exception of Brechin this season its a really tight division.

10 years ago i could see the appeal for a 10 team premiership table as it can get tight and everyone can beat everyone.

However the monopoly of celtic dominating every season has to change. 

Their dominance isnt developing the game up here and were never going to qualify for a major tournament unless things change.

Rangers are a shadow of themselves ( whatever version you want to call them) 

The fans are fed up with the system, the way things have been for 30+ years.

its time for change. The sooner the better

[davemclaren]

21 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

isnt it a crying shame that only now the junior/senior set up now want to break away to join the SPFL set up.

 

something i really hope bears fruit in the next 2-5 years. because only this will really implement change for the SPFL set up.

Lets be honest you could easily put league 1 & 2 together and have a proper 20 team division with a chance to gain promotion to the championship.

With the exception of Brechin this season its a really tight division.

10 years ago i could see the appeal for a 10 team premiership table as it can get tight and everyone can beat everyone.

However the monopoly of celtic dominating every season has to change. 

Their dominance isnt developing the game up here and were never going to qualify for a major tournament unless things change.

Rangers are a shadow of themselves ( whatever version you want to call them) 

The fans are fed up with the system, the way things have been for 30+ years.

its time for change. The sooner the better

We’ve had a small ( 10 or 12 ) top division for over 40 years, scarily enough. 

[savage]

The size of the junior clubs applying this year with the likes of kelty already going could finish the juniors off. Enjoyed playing both levels but preferred junior which at the time was ahead of eos. I do think this is the way the game needs to go though and a full pyramid system is the way forward

Edited April 20, 2018 by savage

[EIEIO]

2 hours ago, jambo-rocker said:

 

Probably be because of this. They also have corporate for every home game and a bar open over the whole weekend making money for them. It's no surprise they have a decent wad of cash behind them.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43821041

 

Kelty's population has shrunk by almost a third to 6,000 following the demise of the coal industry, but the football club have benefitted from £7m of council and business investment in facilities that include a new artificial playing surface and a main stand with seating for 350 to be built this summer.

Interesting that kelty are thought of in a positive light and cowdenbeath from a town 3 times the size are viewed as deadwood. I favour the pyramid so merging the juniors would be a good thing though. Long overdue for leagues 1 and 2 to be regionalised as well Elgin v stranraer and peterhead v Berwick for example are crazy fixtures.

[Deans Jambo]

There seems to be a growing number leaving or planning to leave the juniors,  this could spell the end for the east of Scotland junior set up.

 

Those going to the EoS seems to be sighting extra revenue as a benefit but surely the revenue will reduce as the split of money dwindles due to amount of new clubs joining?

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Interesting times. I sometimes watch dalkeith thistle and (years ago) hoped they might switch to senior, as the Juniors just seems to be weighted in favour of Ayrshire (I know, I know weegie sfa). 

 

I wonder what linlithgow Rose will do if there is not much of an East junior set up?