Edinburgh Tram Completion of route

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

Just wondering how people feel about the proposed tram route being completed from York Place to Newhaven ?

[The Future's Maroon]

I was all against the trams, the cost etc....but now we have them we should expand the network, it is handy and an additional mass transit option for us and tourists.

[Pans Jambo]

Why stop it there. Take it out to past the Royal Infirmary at little France.

Loop Out to Portobello & Musselburgh, up to The Fort & along to Niddrie & Cameron Toll. 

Line to Straiton via Cameron Toll

Dalry, Gorgie & Sighthill. 

Out to Balerno. 

Do it proper. 

 

[frankblack]

Tram should be going to the Royal Infirmary before ****ing up the coastal route out of Edinburgh more than it currently is.

 

I work off Commercial Street and it can take 10 minutes to get from one end of Commercial Street to another due to greenways and too many pedestrian lights blocking the flow of traffic.  This route is important for traffic getting from the North side of Edinburgh to Porty and Musselburgh, an area with a piss poor bus service that won't be served by a tram route.

 

I am proud to still not having been on the Edinburgh Tram - it doesn't serve any useful purpose other than the Gyle and the Airport, the latter of which I can get the bus to.

[Cade]

Originally supposed to be three lines:

Line 1 was a loop from Haymarket, along Princes St, down Leith Walk, all along the shoreline past Newhaven then up into town again via Crewe Toll, Craigleith and Roseburn.
Line 2 was to run from St Andrew Sq out to the Airport then on to Ratho and Newbridge. A part of this was what was eventually built.

Line 3 was to run from Haymarket, along Princes St, over The Bridges, past the Meadows, Newington, Cameron Toll, Craigmillar, Niddrie and all the way out to Newcraighall and then Musselburgh.

 

All three lines were to cost a combined total of £350million.

We ended up with some of line 2 for over £1billion.

 

It would be possible, of course, to run electric high capacity bendy buses along the entirety of the original three lines and not cost too much money but that's not flashy enough for Embra Coonsil.

[tian447]

I must point out, I like the trams, and use them any time I'm in town. 

 

However, I still find it amazing how bad the route is. It's slower than the bus*, there are no passing places if anything goes wrong on the line, and it cost well over budget for a fraction of what it should have been.

 

It could have been an absolutely brilliant thing if it went all over the city, and it has the added benefit of being "greener" than buses. However, they didn't half make a complete arse of it. 

 

It should be completed, but where is the money going to come from?  A congestion charge zone? Hardly going to be popular. 

[FWJ]

No.  

The estimated cost in 2003 was £500m.  That was for line 1a and the Granton Loop.  Line 3 (to Little France) was to be funded by the Edinburgh Congestion Charge which was voted out.

The final cost for two-thirds of line 1a was £776 million pounds. 

 

What doesn’t seem to cause much eyebrow-raising is the cost  overruns in road building:

The M74 extension - originally estimated at £245million, final cost £692million

The Aberdeen Western Bypass - original estimates around £300million, not yet complete and now at £745million.

 

£6billion dualling the A9 and A96.  Six Billion Pounds.  To put that into some kind of perspective that’s the equivalent of £100,000 for every man, woman and child in Inverness.

[joe.gausden]

If they really wanted to do it for the Edinburgh public they could have used the old railway network of lines which are underused. It would have been quicker to put the infrastructure in and avoid all the years of roadworks. This is for the tourist trade only imo

[FWJ]

11 minutes ago, tian447 said:

I must point out, I like the trams, and use them any time I'm in town. 

 

However, I still find it amazing how bad the route is. It's slower than the bus*, there are no passing places if anything goes wrong on the line, and it cost well over budget for a fraction of what it should have been.

 

It could have been an absolutely brilliant thing if it went all over the city, and it has the added benefit of being "greener" than buses. However, they didn't half make a complete arse of it. 

 

It should be completed, but where is the money going to come from?  A congestion charge zone? Hardly going to be popular. 

Yup.  The implementation was very poor and hopefully the enquiry into what went wrong will answer a lot of that.  My thinking is there was a lot of “politics” and petty point-scoring going on.  The government wanted to cancel it but as they were in a minority they lost the vote.

The tram was never meant to be the ‘fast’ way to get to the airport. It was (and is) to link the fastest growing parts of the city (Edinburgh Park and the Waterfront) to the airport and the city centre.  The ‘fast’ way to the airport was to be a railway scheme called EARL - the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link.  This would have taken all the lines to the north and west through the airport before heading into Haymarket / Waverley meaning a direct service to Glasgow / Stirling / Perth / Fife / Dundee & Aberdeen.  This was voted out.

[FWJ]

18 minutes ago, joe.gausden said:

If they really wanted to do it for the Edinburgh public they could have used the old railway network of lines which are underused. It would have been quicker to put the infrastructure in and avoid all the years of roadworks. This is for the tourist trade only imo

The problem with that is that is that you would lose the West Approach Road for starters - wouldn’t be popular (although it’s getting more and more built up along the route I reckon it’ll soon be like a surface street at its eastern end).

I’m also not convinced on the South Sub.  From Morningside or Newington, for example, into town via the South Sub is a long way round.   Better off with a hub-and-spoke maybe.

Pans Jambo’s suggestion of a loop from Little France to Musselburgh via Fort Kinnaird and Newcraighall is a good one.  The Newcraighall area is also going to be growing fast.

 

[tian447]

31 minutes ago, FWJ said:

The ‘fast’ way to the airport was to be a railway scheme called EARL - the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link.  This would have taken all the lines to the north and west through the airport before heading into Haymarket / Waverley meaning a direct service to Glasgow / Stirling / Perth / Fife / Dundee & Aberdeen.  This was voted out.

 

Didn't realise that!  What an absolute joke of a decision as that would have been absolutely ace for just about everyone in Scotland. 

 

Muppets! 

[jake]

City council will bankrupt.

 

But no one who gets backhanders will.

 

No one served time for the repairs scandal apart from private business.

 

 

But but Scottish politicians are Barry.

 

Think of what 1 billion could have done for this city.

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 hours ago, jake said:

City council will bankrupt.

 

But no one who gets backhanders will.

 

No one served time for the repairs scandal apart from private business.

 

 

But but Scottish politicians are Barry.

 

Think of what 1 billion could have done for this city.

 

 

 

It's £1.6billion (and counting) but that's an aside. 

 

If the tram had never gone ahead the only extra money the city would have had to do things with is the money from it's budget it put in. £500m came from the Scottish Gov so that would have gone elsewhere (although some might have been spent on the city) and the rest has been borrowed by the council with heavy annual interest payments. If they'd never had to borrow then of course the interest payments would have been available to them for projects within the city.  In short they would never have had £1.6billion extra to play with. 

[Sarah O]

9 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Why stop it there. Take it out to past the Royal Infirmary at little France.

Loop Out to Portobello & Musselburgh, up to The Fort & along to Niddrie & Cameron Toll. 

Line to Straiton via Cameron Toll

Dalry, Gorgie & Sighthill. 

Out to Balerno. 

Do it proper. 

 

this

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 hours ago, The Future's Maroon said:

I was all against the trams, the cost etc....but now we have them we should expand the network, it is handy and an additional mass transit option for us and tourists.

If this phase goes ahead there will probably be an inquiry why it has cost millions over budget.

 

[Don Dan]

I was against the Tram and still am. However if these clowns in the ECC are hell bent on throwing money away they should build a line that goes to Little France. To me it’s the only sensible route that would benefit a large percentage of the population of Edinburgh. 

 

I’m not sure of the logistics and terrain but if there was a possibility of a park and ride at Sherriff Hall Round About lined to Little France then IMO that would make money hands down. 

[FWJ]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

It's £1.6billion (and counting) but that's an aside. 

 

If the tram had never gone ahead the only extra money the city would have had to do things with is the money from it's budget it put in. £500m came from the Scottish Gov so that would have gone elsewhere (although some might have been spent on the city) and the rest has been borrowed by the council with heavy annual interest payments. If they'd never had to borrow then of course the interest payments would have been available to them for projects within the city.  In short they would never have had £1.6billion extra to play with. 

£1.6 Billion now, is it?

[FWJ]

7 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

I was against the Tram and still am. However if these clowns in the ECC are hell bent on throwing money away they should build a line that goes to Little France. To me it’s the only sensible route that would benefit a large percentage of the population of Edinburgh. 

 

I’m not sure of the logistics and terrain but if there was a possibility of a park and ride at Sherriff Hall Round About lined to Little France then IMO that would make money hands down. 

I’m think that will be next if the completion to Newhaven goes ahead. 

I’m sure it’ll be looked into but I wonder if developers/ house builders along the route are asked to make a contribution.  It’s well-documented that property prices are higher / rise more quickly if there’s a tram line nearby.

 

[Don Dan]

2 minutes ago, FWJ said:

I’m think that will be next if the completion to Newhaven goes ahead. 

I’m sure it’ll be looked into but I wonder if developers/ house builders along the route are asked to make a contribution.  It’s well-documented that property prices are higher / rise more quickly if there’s a tram line nearby.

 

 

To me it’s the only sensible extension because people on that route will benefit far more than a link to Ocean Terminal as the ERI now (will) incorporates the likes of the Sick Kids. 

[FWJ]

2 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

To me it’s the only sensible extension because people on that route will benefit far more than a link to Ocean Terminal as the ERI now (will) incorporates the likes of the Sick Kids. 

I think the reason that Ocean Terminal / Newhaven has been chosen is that there is a lot of development going on down there too, most of the preparatory work has been done and that area is the most densely populated part of the city (the country actually) and trams are ideal for densely populated areas.  I’ve also heard it said that Leith Walk is almost ‘full’ when it comes to buses.

[Stuart Lyon]

91% of the people in Leith are happy with the current public transport available to them -  this from CeC's own survey. 59% (I think) said they would use the tram if it was built. Which sure finding do you think the CeC focused on? 

 

[FWJ]

20 minutes ago, Stuart Lyon said:

91% of the people in Leith are happy with the current public transport available to them -  this from CeC's own survey. 59% (I think) said they would use the tram if it was built. Which sure finding do you think the CeC focused on? 

 

When asked what would improve public transport provision in Leith the most popular response was the introduction of a tram service.

[H2]

It has already been proved that Edinburgh Council are not capable of running a project of this scale.

Currently nobody can actually accurately cost a project with the fall of the pound, the unknowns of Brexit, and how many suppliers will actually be interested with big players like Carillion having already been badly burned.

We have a great bus service with fares having gone up 70% since starting to subisdsie the trams.

Here's a bucket of unkowns, it'll cost you a minimum of £350million, but might end up a £2billion, and your bus fares will go up again to subsidise it you want to buy it. .... eh maybe naw!

[FWJ]

15 minutes ago, H2 said:

It has already been proved that Edinburgh Council are not capable of running a project of this scale.

Currently nobody can actually accurately cost a project with the fall of the pound, the unknowns of Brexit, and how many suppliers will actually be interested with big players like Carillion having already been badly burned.

We have a great bus service with fares having gone up 70% since starting to subisdsie the trams.

Here's a bucket of unkowns, it'll cost you a minimum of £350million, but might end up a £2billion, and your bus fares will go up again to subsidise it you want to buy it. .... eh maybe naw!

Will Transport Scotland be involved this time?  

I’d like to think lessons were learned from the past carry-on and I think this is why they are doing so much consultation this time.

 

Have fares “gone up 70% since starting to subsidise the trams”?

[H2]

Just now, FWJ said:

Will Transport Scotland be involved this time?  

I’d like to think lessons were learned from the past carry-on and I think this is why they are doing so much consultation this time.

Good question - another unknown. Is there a Business Case this time? If so can we see it?

I'm not convinced that it is real consultation, but more of a PR exercise.

The cynic in me just sees a political gaame for power.

[Do The Dance]

42 minutes ago, Stuart Lyon said:

91% of the people in Leith are happy with the current public transport available to them -  this from CeC's own survey. 59% (I think) said they would use the tram if it was built. Which sure finding do you think the CeC focused on? 

 

 

Which is how I would have reacted had I been asked before they did the work at this end. Now, I end up always using the tram to get into town.

[FWJ]

9 minutes ago, H2 said:

Good question - another unknown. Is there a Business Case this time? If so can we see it?

I'm not convinced that it is real consultation, but more of a PR exercise.

The cynic in me just sees a political gaame for power.

I think that was the problem with the first stretch of line.  It became a political game.  The SNP wanted to cancel both the trams and EARL but they lost the vote on the trams. EARL was cancelled unfortunately - what a huge benefit that would have been IMHO.  Edinburgh Gateway Station isn’t really performing (and isn’t even connected to the Glasgow and Stirling lines without the Dalmeny Chord not yet built)

[Cade]

Having the trams run down to Newhaven only ever made business sense when the gigantic house-building project at Granton was still on the go.

Tens of thousands of new residents would have made the trams worthwhile.

But then the crash of 2008 happened, the housing project was put back indefinitely then eventually cancelled altogether and the business case for the trams evaporated.

By then, the council had already been doing the ground works all the way down Leith Walk for a couple of years, so now they're determined to push it down there anyways, even though none of the new housing was ever built.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 minutes ago, Cade said:

Having the trams run down to Newhaven only ever made business sense when the gigantic house-building project at Granton was still on the go.

Tens of thousands of new residents would have made the trams worthwhile.

But then the crash of 2008 happened, the housing project was put back indefinitely then eventually cancelled altogether and the business case for the trams evaporated.

By then, the council had already been doing the ground works all the way down Leith Walk for a couple of years, so now they're determined to push it down there anyways, even though none of the new housing was ever built.

 

Are you saying the Council couldn’t run a bath?

[JT1959]

14KM of existing track for a minimum of £776m that's over £55,000 per metre.

 

Aye OK so that includes rolling stock, so lets half it. That's a mere £27,000 per metre.

 

In fact let's half it again just for a laugh, That's now only £13,000 per metre.

 

Absolute Madness.

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, FWJ said:

£1.6 Billion now, is it?

 

It's what I was told the cost was estimated at in 2012 by Experian. What I don't know is what they included in their results (i.e. estimating lost revenue for business and other direct costs). Experian were also sure the council had hidden costs in other budgets something the council deny.

[FWJ]

58 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

It's what I was told the cost was estimated at in 2012 by Experian. What I don't know is what they included in their results (i.e. estimating lost revenue for business and other direct costs). Experian were also sure the council had hidden costs in other budgets something the council deny.

I’d be interested to know what they included in there results.  I’ve never seen that figure quoted anywhere else.

Is it normal to include lost revenue for business in infrastructure improvements?  Does the £750m cost of the EGIP include the cost to businesses of closing the line and disruption at stations?  I’ve never heard that it does.

 

But if you are to include costs to businesses during the (few) years of construction then why not include the benefits once the line(s) are open?

[FWJ]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Having the trams run down to Newhaven only ever made business sense when the gigantic house-building project at Granton was still on the go.

Tens of thousands of new residents would have made the trams worthwhile.

But then the crash of 2008 happened, the housing project was put back indefinitely then eventually cancelled altogether and the business case for the trams evaporated.

By then, the council had already been doing the ground works all the way down Leith Walk for a couple of years, so now they're determined to push it down there anyways, even though none of the new housing was ever built.

 

There’s still plenty of building going on down there and plenty of plans for more.  And on its way the tram will pass through the most densely populated area in the country.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/granton/work-could-begin-on-granton-marina-by-end-of-the-year-1-4424953/amp

 

As you say yourself much of the preparatory work has been done and a previously referenced poll shows that trams are the most popular way to improve public transport provision in Leith.

 

I’m interested in the £350m estimate for the three lines (including one that goes to Musselburgh).  I’ve never seen it - have you got a link?

 

 

 

[tian447]

If the trams went down Leith Walk, it would benefit a huge number of people, let's not deny that.

 

Ever tried to get a bus at peak times from the Foot of the Walk to the end of Princes Street?  It takes about 7 hours and a sense of humour transplant to get through it.

[The Real Maroonblood]

The next phase gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

[argyjambo]

15 hours ago, frankblack said:

Tram should be going to the Royal Infirmary before ****ing up the coastal route out of Edinburgh more than it currently is.

 

I work off Commercial Street and it can take 10 minutes to get from one end of Commercial Street to another due to greenways and too many pedestrian lights blocking the flow of traffic.  This route is important for traffic getting from the North side of Edinburgh to Porty and Musselburgh, an area with a piss poor bus service that won't be served by a tram route.

 

I am proud to still not having been on the Edinburgh Tram - it doesn't serve any useful purpose other than the Gyle and the Airport, the latter of which I can get the bus to.

Portobello & Musselburgh are very well-served by bus services to the town, I know, I live in Portobello. It's true links between porty & leith/north Edinburgh are poor, why no direct link from Porty directly into Leith going along Seafield road & Salamander st? Any service between the two go through Lochend and take ages.

Just imagine the congestion if both tram link & buses were routed along Seafield road.

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, argyjambo said:

Portobello & Musselburgh are very well-served by bus services to the town, I know, I live in Portobello. It's true links between porty & leith/north Edinburgh are poor, why no direct link from Porty directly into Leith going along Seafield road & Salamander st? Any service between the two go through Lochend and take ages.

Just imagine the congestion if both tram link & buses were routed along Seafield road.

 

I found that out as I work off Commercial Street and had to put my car into a garage at Seafield and it was a nightmare getting into work and then back again at the end of the day to collect it.

 

Commercial Street has a ****ed up greenway system with a bus stop at the lights for the Ocean Terminal junction.  Most buses then want to turn right but can't because cars need to pull in to go straight over to Newhaven way.  If you add trams to that it will be carnage - nothing will move, and barely anything moves at rush hour now.

[FWJ]

As far as I know there are no plans to run trams along Seafield Road, Salamander Street or Commercial Street.

[H2]

6 hours ago, FWJ said:

I think that was the problem with the first stretch of line.  It became a political game.  The SNP wanted to cancel both the trams and EARL but they lost the vote on the trams. EARL was cancelled unfortunately - what a huge benefit that would have been IMHO.  Edinburgh Gateway Station isn’t really performing (and isn’t even connected to the Glasgow and Stirling lines without the Dalmeny Chord not yet built)

Good points. 100% agree about the political game. SNP sold out to the Greens for power by allowing them to vote for the trams. If they had done what they believed was the "right thing", they would have not got the Greens to vote with them on other issues and would have not been able to form a Government , so effectively SNP allowed the tram project to go ahead. IMO every vote should be a free vote and not party led, that involves bullying by whips.

Had there been a proper business case, for a proper tram system, run by proper Project Management it would have got a lot more support, indeed we could have had an excellent system in place now..  Now it is all about "how many votes will I get"

 

In the case of Edinburgh Gateway, that was plain stupid, just to try and justify trams. There is a railway line runs right past the aiport, it could have been taken in and proper rail links established. Scottish politics is only about power, but I guess the same can be said for all politics, the people and needs are secondary.

[Chester™]

10 minutes ago, H2 said:

Good points. 100% agree about the political game. SNP sold out to the Greens for power by allowing them to vote for the trams. If they had done what they believed was the "right thing", they would have not got the Greens to vote with them on other issues and would have not been able to form a Government , so effectively SNP allowed the tram project to go ahead. IMO every vote should be a free vote and not party led, that involves bullying by whips.

Had there been a proper business case, for a proper tram system, run by proper Project Management it would have got a lot more support, indeed we could have had an excellent system in place now..  Now it is all about "how many votes will I get"

 

In the case of Edinburgh Gateway, that was plain stupid, just to try and justify trams. There is a railway line runs right past the aiport, it could have been taken in and proper rail links established. Scottish politics is only about power, but I guess the same can be said for all politics, the people and needs are secondary.

 

Having the Green vote, in 2007, made little to no difference to the tram, nor further votes, in the 07-11 Parliament.

[H2]

19 minutes ago, Chester™ said:

 

Having the Green vote, in 2007, made little to no difference to the tram, nor further votes, in the 07-11 Parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-42793044

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-27159614

https://www.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-trams-timeline-of-twists-and-turns-1-2229133

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

3 hours ago, FWJ said:

I’d be interested to know what they included in there results.  I’ve never seen that figure quoted anywhere else.

Is it normal to include lost revenue for business in infrastructure improvements?  Does the £750m cost of the EGIP include the cost to businesses of closing the line and disruption at stations?  I’ve never heard that it does.

 

But if you are to include costs to businesses during the (few) years of construction then why not include the benefits once the line(s) are open?

 

You won't see it quoted as it was an internal thing they did more as a project than for anything else. 

[FWJ]

38 minutes ago, H2 said:

Good points. 100% agree about the political game. SNP sold out to the Greens for power by allowing them to vote for the trams. If they had done what they believed was the "right thing", they would have not got the Greens to vote with them on other issues and would have not been able to form a Government , so effectively SNP allowed the tram project to go ahead. IMO every vote should be a free vote and not party led, that involves bullying by whips.

Had there been a proper business case, for a proper tram system, run by proper Project Management it would have got a lot more support, indeed we could have had an excellent system in place now..  Now it is all about "how many votes will I get"

 

In the case of Edinburgh Gateway, that was plain stupid, just to try and justify trams. There is a railway line runs right past the aiport, it could have been taken in and proper rail links established. Scottish politics is only about power, but I guess the same can be said for all politics, the people and needs are secondary.

I’m not sure that Edinburgh Gateway was just to try to justify the trams.  I think it was the half-a***d cheaper option to save passengers on the Fife / North line from having to go all the way into Haymarket and all the way out again.  Without the Dalmeny Chord passengers from the west either have to take the slow train via Bathgate and change at Edinburgh Park or else into Haymarket and out again.

Gateway Station may pick up when  all the building planned for north / north-west of the Gogar Roundabout goes ahead.

[FWJ]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

You won't see it quoted as it was an internal thing they did more as a project than for anything else. 

Ah right.

So who else is privy to this figure of at least £1.6billion and why isn’t it in the public domain?

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, FWJ said:

Ah right.

So who else is privy to this figure of at least £1.6billion and why isn’t it in the public domain?

 

No idea I was only having a chat over a drink (or 5) with one of their senior directors back in 2012.

[FWJ]

4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

No idea I was only having a chat over a drink (or 5) with one of their senior directors back in 2012.

Ah right

 

A figure at least twice as great as the official figure but one that cannot be tested or examined?

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, FWJ said:

Ah right

So something you heard in a bar somewhere.

A figure at least twice as great as the official figure but one that cannot be tested or examined?

 

Not quite. Oh and even the council muppets are finally admitting to £1billion! 

[FWJ]

5 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Not quite. Oh and even the council muppets are finally admitting to £1billion! 

But not a figure at least £600million greater.

 

Again, a figure that you heard from someone in a bar while having quite a few drinks and one that is not (and sounds like will never be) in the public domain and cannot be tested or examined....

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, FWJ said:

But not a figure at least £600million pounds greater.

 

Again, a figure that you heard from someone in a bar while having quite a few drinks and one that is not (and sounds like will never be) in the public domain and cannot be tested or examined....

 

Jeez louise chill out. He had no reason to make it up ffs. Do you work for the council or something. What's the annual interest payments they're having to make?

[FWJ]

Nope I don’t work for the council or the trams.

But when people come up with figures that are vastly greater than any other quoted anywhere else I think it’s reasonable to question both their provenance and accuracy.