Hard Brexit

[Gorgiewave]

Brexit will be a glorious success and quite a lot of people will get diabetes from all the humble pie.

 

The best thing about it so far is that it tempted wee Nippy into overplaying her hand last year.

[The White Cockade]

24 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Brexit will be a glorious success and quite a lot of people will get diabetes from all the humble pie.

 

The best thing about it so far is that it tempted wee Nippy into overplaying her hand last year.

 

 

or not....

[Francis Albert]

18 hours ago, jake said:

Don't worry it was the Russians.

Another referendum on its way.

Oh and for all you kiddy on nationalists.

No doubt the Russians will be blamed if we ever get independence.

It's all so laughable trump Syria brexit oh and race relations in Europe .

All Russia.

Because our media is so naive.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42719027

Agreed

 

Is there a shred of evidence that a single vote has been changed as a result of Russian interference? Or to ask a slightly more complex question, that Russian interference  has had a net positive impact on votes for the side Rissia is interfering on behalf of? Social media is such a maelstrom of competimg and well funded views that picking out the impact of any interference would seem problematic. But let the paranoia run.

 

I see the British PM is concerned about Russian interference in foreign elections. How often has the UK complained about US intereference in other countries elections? Something that has been an endemic feature of US foreign policy since WW2.

 

And something the UK was not averse to in the days it had some influence.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Francis Albert

[jake]

4 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Agreed

 

Is there a shred of evidence that a single vote has been changed as a result of Russian interference? Or to ask a slightly more complex question, that Russian interference  has had a net positive impact on votes for the side Rissia is interfering on behalf of? Social media is such a maelstrom of competimg and well funded views that picking out the impact of any interference would seem problematic. But let the paranoia run.

 

I see the British PM is concerned about Russian interference in foreign elections. How often has the UK complained about US intereference in other countries elections? Something that has been an endemic feature of US foreign policy since WW2.

 

And something the UK was not averse to in the days it had some influence.

Even if "Russian trolls" have an effect there is a plethora of various views on any political subject.

And our media outlets are not some new kid on the block.

Our very own state broadcaster is no innocent .

It's political editor still in her job despite being caught out blatantly using her position against Corbyn.

 

[Space Mackerel]

5 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

Brexit will be a glorious success and quite a lot of people will get diabetes from all the humble pie.

 

The best thing about it so far is that it tempted wee Nippy into overplaying her hand last year.

 

You could argue the very same points with Catalonia, right? 

 

[Gorgiewave]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You could argue the very same points with Catalonia, right? 

 

No.

[Space Mackerel]

19 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

No.

 

 

Fair enough point 

[mac]

Is this Mrs.Space Mackerel? 

[Space Mackerel]

56 minutes ago, mac said:

Is this Mrs.Space Mackerel? 

 

Had worse ?

[mac]

That is funny - so have I 

[Bristol jamboree 10]

In Malta great country.We must be mad to leave EU.Flight for 2 less than £100 ,Four nights BB £160 . That will change due to brain dead 37% who voted to leave.

 

[Shanks said no]

Brexit isn't going to happen

[jake]

1 hour ago, Bristol jamboree 10 said:

In Malta great country.We must be mad to leave EU.Flight for 2 less than £100 ,Four nights BB £160 . That will change due to brain dead 37% who voted to leave.

 

I give up.

And the brain dead quip?

 

The irony.

[A Boy Named Crow]

1 hour ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

Brexit isn't going to happen

This would be the most sensible outcome, not holding out much hope though.

[Dunks]

On 16/01/2018 at 12:37, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Was it an SNP commissioned paper or a Scottish Government paper? There are big differences in regards to impartiality.

 

Was this ever confirmed?

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Dunks said:

 

Was this ever confirmed?

Scottish Government.

[Dunks]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Scottish Government.

 

 

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

I'm at odds with who to believe.  Every reputable economist worth their salt, or our resident Spanish basket case.  

 

It's a toughie.

 

Frankly - it's all dependent on the deal we get and the transitional arrangements.

 

Brexit will diminish the UK. But it's not yet happened so the impact is hard to say.

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

I hope not but just imagine if it didn't.  There would be a civil uprising and the possibility of future referendums would be deemed as meaningless.

 

Good. They're a nonsense.

 

We live in a representative democracy. I elect a representative to make decisions on my behalf with their best judgement and in accordance with the theme of their manifesto. They're paid to male these decisions and have more facts, figures and understanding of it all than me to make these choices.

 

Referendums are mob rule. They bring huge complex issues like our EU membership to a state of black vs white. Blur the complex away. And divide our political discourse hugely resulting in deadlock. Frankly I'd never hold another referendum again. 

[JamboX2]

On 18/01/2018 at 14:10, Francis Albert said:

Agreed

 

Is there a shred of evidence that a single vote has been changed as a result of Russian interference? Or to ask a slightly more complex question, that Russian interference  has had a net positive impact on votes for the side Rissia is interfering on behalf of? Social media is such a maelstrom of competimg and well funded views that picking out the impact of any interference would seem problematic. But let the paranoia run.

 

I see the British PM is concerned about Russian interference in foreign elections. How often has the UK complained about US intereference in other countries elections? Something that has been an endemic feature of US foreign policy since WW2.

 

And something the UK was not averse to in the days it had some influence.

 

Electoral Commission is investigating the murky donations to Leave campaigns and use of money by them. So whether or not it was a chap pressing buttons in the Kremlin Leave was a dirty organisation.

 

Add to that the Farage-Russia links. 

 

Be in no doubt - the UK leaving the EU is a huge advantage to Russia. As are the governments of Hungary and Poland.

[ri Alban]

52 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Electoral Commission is investigating the murky donations to Leave campaigns and use of money by them. So whether or not it was a chap pressing buttons in the Kremlin Leave was a dirty organisation.

 

Add to that the Farage-Russia links. 

 

Be in no doubt - the UK leaving the EU is a huge advantage to Russia. As are the governments of Hungary and Poland.

I'd say that it's a big advantage to China and the USA too.

[JamboX2]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I'd say that it's a big advantage to China and the USA too.

 

Arguably. Long term - sane - American governments wanted a united UK in the EU. Politically gave them a close ally as a key player in the EU and didn't threaten their NATO interests in Europe.

 

Part of that is now broken.

 

Trump is a fart in the hurricane of history. A flash in the pan who'll be gone in a few years (hopefully!). Brexit sadly is irreversible for a long time to come.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Arguably. Long term - sane - American governments wanted a united UK in the EU. Politically gave them a close ally as a key player in the EU and didn't threaten their NATO interests in Europe.

 

Part of that is now broken.

 

Trump is a fart in the hurricane of history. A flash in the pan who'll be gone in a few years (hopefully!). Brexit sadly is irreversible for a long time to come.

I actually think he might win again. He's taking the credit for the US economic success which Obama policies have achieved. They believed in him.

[Gorgiewave]

9 hours ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

I'm at odds with who to believe.  Every reputable economist worth their salt, or our resident Spanish basket case.  

 

It's a toughie.

Every reputable economist prediceted the City of London would collapse, unemployment would skyrocket and inward investment would dry up. The City of London keeps expanding, unemployment is the lowest it's been in about 42 years and inward investment keeps flowing in (not so much in Scotland because the SNP has made Scotland high-risk).

 

Reputable economists will continue to be wrong.

[Francis Albert]

7 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I actually think he might win again. He's taking the credit for the US economic success which Obama policies have achieved. They believed in him.

Of course he is. As every incoming president or PM has always done. Or alternatively or as well blamed the previous administration for everything bad.

 

The tax reform bill was deeply unpopular at first but the polls are showing increased approval ratings for it.

 

Apple has announced that it is repatriating most of the $252bn cash assets it holds overseas. Even by the standards of the American economy that is a big number.

[Boris]

4 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

Every reputable economist prediceted the City of London would collapse, unemployment would skyrocket and inward investment would dry up. The City of London keeps expanding, unemployment is the lowest it's been in about 42 years and inward investment keeps flowing in (not so much in Scotland because the SNP has made Scotland high-risk).

 

Reputable economists will continue to be wrong.

 

Give it time. Brexit hasn't actually happened yet.

[Gorgiewave]

33 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Give it time. Brexit hasn't actually happened yet.

Let's talk in five years, Boris.

 

Unless, of course, Jeremy Corbyn has humped the country.

 

It's such a pleasure being a convert to the Conservative Party, but you're still a good guy, Boris.

[Gorgiewave]

38 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Have you missed the endless list of businesses and key EU subsidiaries looking at alternative locations to London?  Or the fact that the UK went from top performing economy in the G8 to the bottom in the space of months?  There's still another two years before the inevitable as well, as Boris correctly pointed out.

 

In a recent poll (BMG Research), only 2% thought that Brexit is going very well, 20% said well.  You, Boris, Nigel, a small percentage of the population, and the Daily Express remain in a dwindling band of eternal optimists desperately clinging to the belief that this is going to be a success.

 

The other Boris, not our Boris, I assume?

 

Have you tried the Despite Brexit twitter feed? I mean, I used to be a Remain supporter, until I saw this data.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

I agree somewhat with that but still feel as though they're essential given that people are inclined to continue playing party politics irrespective of the topic.

 

Look at Labour.  Corbyn appears to support a hard Brexit whilst the majority of Labour voters do not.  How would these voters vote on such key constitutional issues, referenda would be the only viable option surely?

 

Or leadership change in the party or a party motion passed at conference to prevent hard Brexit policies.

 

Referendums are frankly crap. We did a lot of progressive constitutional and civil rights reforms without them up to tge late 90s. Fail to see why they make a shred of difference now 

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Or leadership change in the party or a party motion passed at conference to prevent hard Brexit policies.

 

Referendums are frankly crap. We did a lot of progressive constitutional and civil rights reforms without them up to tge late 90s. Fail to see why they make a shred of difference now 

So the SNP should call a UDI? They have won the last 2 GEs and owned Holyrood for 10 years. 

 

[Francis Albert]

On ‎21‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 11:11, JamboX2 said:

 

Good. They're a nonsense.

 

We live in a representative democracy. I elect a representative to make decisions on my behalf with their best judgement and in accordance with the theme of their manifesto. They're paid to male these decisions and have more facts, figures and understanding of it all than me to make these choices.

 

Referendums are mob rule. They bring huge complex issues like our EU membership to a state of black vs white. Blur the complex away. And divide our political discourse hugely resulting in deadlock. Frankly I'd never hold another referendum again. 

The representatives in our "representative parliamentary democracy" voted by a majority of 6 to 1 (yes 6 to 1) to hold a referendum on EU membership. Having not got the result they wanted and confidently expected, many of them now want to ignore the result or keep re-running the vote until they get the right result (in line with traditional EU democracy). If people do not get what they voted for it will be representative parliamentary democracy, not referenda, which will be discredited.

[Francis Albert]

4 hours ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Have you missed the endless list of businesses and key EU subsidiaries looking at alternative locations to London?  Or the fact that the UK went from top performing economy in the G8 to the bottom in the space of months?  There's still another two years before the inevitable as well, as Boris correctly pointed out.

 

In a recent poll (BMG Research), only 2% thought that Brexit is going very well, 20% said well.  You, Boris, Nigel, a small percentage of the population, and the Daily Express remain in a dwindling band of eternal optimists desperately clinging to the belief that this is going to be a success.

Most of the businesses looking at alternative locations are talking of moving a few hundred staff not their whole operation.

 

The low numbers thinking it is going well are hardly surprising. Most Rremainers will think it is not going well because they don't want it. But so will many Leave voters concerned at the slow rate of progress and who fear the Remainers will still win by leaving us in the free market, with acceptance of EU rules, and the free movement of people ie with all the things they voted against. The only surprise is the number thinking it is going well  is as high as 20%.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

The representatives in our "representative parliamentary democracy" voted by a majority of 6 to 1 (yes 6 to 1) to hold a referendum on EU membership. Having not got the result they wanted and confidently expected, many of them now want to ignore the result or keep re-running the vote until they get the right result (in line with traditional EU democracy). If people do not get what they voted for it will be representative parliamentary democracy, not referenda, which will be discredited.

 

 

But what does leaving the EU actually mean?

 

Many may have voted leave, but still expected single market membership (as was promised by many Leave campaigners).  Many may have voted leave expecting full repatriation of all EU citizens within the UK.

 

What is undemocratic though is not allowing people to campaign or hold views that were rejected by the referendum result.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

But what does leaving the EU actually mean?

 

Many may have voted leave, but still expected single market membership (as was promised by many Leave campaigners).  Many may have voted leave expecting full repatriation of all EU citizens within the UK.

 

What is undemocratic though is not allowing people to campaign or hold views that were rejected by the referendum result.

 

 

Who is not allowing people to campaign or hold views that were rejected by the referendum result? Apart from Jeremy Corbyn maybe.

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Who is not allowing people to campaign or hold views that were rejected by the referendum result? Apart from Jeremy Corbyn maybe.

 

You said it is a discredit to "them (who) now want to ignore the result or keep re-running the vote until they get the right result".

 

Basically saying 49% of the people should have no representation?

 

But to be subtler, where on the referendum ballot did it say if you vote leave you vote for "hard brexit", especially given the single market chat of some leave campaigners?

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

 

You said it is a discredit to "them (who) now want to ignore the result or keep re-running the vote until they get the right result".

 

Basically saying 49% of the people should have no representation?

 

But to be subtler, where on the referendum ballot did it say if you vote leave you vote for "hard brexit", especially given the single market chat of some leave campaigners?

It is a discredit to those who voted 6 to 1 to hold a referendum to seek to overthrow the result, as many are doing (while as in the case of Blair piously saying he "respects the referendum vote" - like hell he does.)  Maybe some Leavers voted because they believed we would stay in the single market and accept what the EU is telling must go with that - free movement of peoples, application of EU regulations and laws, acceptance the European Court has ultimate jurisdiction in these areas ... in other words retain all the things that drove the Leave campaign but I doubt that many did. Maybe some Remain voters believed the prediction or threat or statement of fact that the economy would sink into recession immediately after a Leave vote (or even in some cases merely as a result of a decision to hold the referendum). 

 

Did those who voted 6-1 really believe that the referendum campaign  (unlike every election campaign in history) would not feature distortions and misleading forecasts ... by both sides?

 

And it was 48% for Remain not 49%. They were fully represented in the referendum ... and they lost.

 

Just as if and when Scots vote 52% or any other majority vote for independence the Unionists will have lost. Imagine if Westminster tried to pretend it was a vote not for independence but for an extension of devolution. I am sure an Indy Ref campaign would throw up just as many "justifications" for that as has  turning the Brexit vote into a "Soft Remain" outcome.

[Bristol jamboree 10]

Just back from Malta.To live there you need €24000 a year couple.Private health insurance.They play the E U rules to the letter.Not like the corrupt U K.Need over €1m to buy anything good. Anyone moving to Malta is not a drain on the state.Health service is miles better than U K and all free to Malta taxpayers 35% tax..I think that is all in no N I.You must prove you can support yourself.

[jake]

42 minutes ago, Bristol jamboree 10 said:

Just back from Malta.To live there you need €24000 a year couple.Private health insurance.They play the E U rules to the letter.Not like the corrupt U K.Need over €1m to buy anything good. Anyone moving to Malta is not a drain on the state.Health service is miles better than U K and all free to Malta taxpayers 35% tax..I think that is all in no N I.You must prove you can support yourself.

How much do they contribute per capita to the EU?

 

[Space Mackerel]

Gorgie wave doesn't care about the peopey not getting any pay rises till 2060, just as long as he can sneer at foruners and wave his wee blue passport at them in the extra long queue at the arrivals hall. 

[jake]

7 hours ago, Bristol jamboree 10 said:

Just back from Malta.To live there you need €24000 a year couple.Private health insurance.They play the E U rules to the letter.Not like the corrupt U K.Need over €1m to buy anything good. Anyone moving to Malta is not a drain on the state.Health service is miles better than U K and all free to Malta taxpayers 35% tax..I think that is all in no N I.You must prove you can support yourself.

Malta pays the least.

And for all your rantings about the UK it has a immigration policy far less restrictive than Malta.

It has a health service free at the point of contact available to all.

 

You moan about the impact of brexit on a cheap holiday.

 

Sums up the tabloid level of argument from remainers

[Francis Albert]

21 hours ago, Bristol jamboree 10 said:

Just back from Malta.To live there you need €24000 a year couple.Private health insurance.They play the E U rules to the letter.Not like the corrupt U K.Need over €1m to buy anything good. Anyone moving to Malta is not a drain on the state.Health service is miles better than U K and all free to Malta taxpayers 35% tax..I think that is all in no N I.You must prove you can support yourself.

I am not sure what you are referring to when you say that Malta applies the EU rules to the letter "not like the corrupt UK" and the idea that the Maltese health service is miles better than the UK is absurd.

But you raise an interesting point. As you suggest it is perfectly possible while complying with EU rules to control immigration for example by setting financial requirements for immigrants, restricting access to social services and benefits until immigrants have a track record of providing for them etc. Many EU countries do so. For decades UK parties of all colours have talked about controlling immigration and set target limits that have been greatly exceeded. They have forecast rates of immigration (eg 13,000 a year from Eastern Europe after the Eastern European countries joined the EU) which have been out by orders of magnitude. They have maintained the absurd pretence that 300,000 immigrants a year places no serious additiona pressure on housing, schools and the NHS. The EU is not primarily to blame for the levels of UK immigration. The Blair Government was passionately in favour of immigration enthusiastically welcoming increased diversity and alleviating the "aging population" problem. The Cameron Government carried on with only minor verbal sops to the Party's right, while the numbers grew.

Policies like the Maltese and Denmark for example have applied would immediately be dismissed here as fascist, Nazi, racist and "right wing" and would send masses of millenials and middle class people who live in areas largely unaffected by immigration onto the streets chanting "let them In" "all are welcome" and "no person is illegal".

The EU referendum meant that, successive UK governments having failed to address an issue the majority wanted to be addressed, it was the EU that got beaten up instead,

But hey that is probably just me being a crypto-Nazi.

 

[jake]

Work beside loads of different EU nationals.

The idea that the EU Protects workers rights is laughable.

The remainers really need to experience reality.

 

[ri Alban]

35 minutes ago, jake said:

Work beside loads of different EU nationals.

The idea that the EU Protects workers rights is laughable.

The remainers really need to experience reality.

 

Well we'll just have wait and see. Won't we.

[jake]

20 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Well we'll just have wait and see. Won't we.

No actually .

Portuguse guys who I worked beside tell me they had no protection back home.

They worked in France Holland Belgium and Sweden.

And only here have they brought their families.

This corrupt bad UK is bullshit.

[ri Alban]

7 minutes ago, jake said:

No actually .

Portuguse guys who I worked beside tell me they had no protection back home.

They worked in France Holland Belgium and Sweden.

And only here have they brought their families.

This corrupt bad UK is bullshit.

Gies peace. I don't suppose his name is Jose. Your make believe Portuguese pal.

 I've worked with poles, Romanias, Czechs, and Irish. They're only here for the money. End of.

Say goodbye to your holiday pay, sick pay, maternity/Paternity leave. You forget who runs WM Jake. They intend to have everyone self-employed. Big business is their friend.

Anyway roll on Independence.

Edited January 25, 2018 by ri Alban

[jake]

8 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Gies peace. I don't suppose his name is Jose. Your make believe Portuguese pal.

 I've worked with poles, Romanias, Czechs, and Irish. They're only here for the money. End of.

Say goodbye to your holiday pay, sick pay, maternity/Paternity leave. You forget who runs WM Jake. They intend to have everyone self-employed. Big business is their friend.

Anyway roll on Independence.

Ri Alban.

I don't tell lies.

Holiday pay .

I had that since I began working

Sick pay hahaha you are having a laugh eh?

Paternity leave 2 weeks at a hundred pound a week.

 

Most boys use their holidays as they can't afford the hit.

 

And trust me the same job in Portugal doesn't meet the living costs there.

You can call me a liar all you want.

I live in a street with plenty folk who are from different EU backgrounds.

I work with them also.

Yes some will go back home but most are here to stay.

 

Better pay

Better treatment by employers.

They came from EU countries.

 

So the myth you and others spread is the lies .

Not the reality that I posted.

[ri Alban]

So the devolved Parliaments are being screwed. 

Oh and the MSM and Tory misinformation on the lion rampant. Ffs Britnats it is.

[JamboX2]

1 minute ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

So Brexit would have been forced through because of a tory government.  Or we'd already be independent thanks to an SNP majority?

 

Perhaps. Who's to say the SNP would've got a majority if their policy was to seek independence once elected? They'd failed to win majorities of seats before 2011 on that basis. A referendum was an insurance policy for voters.

 

The Tories have shown how minor the Brexiteers are in terms of seats after the vote. Also no Tory party leader advocated withdrawal as a major or key party policy up to the referendum defeat. And even during that referendum a majority in cabinet backed continued EU membership.

 

We now have a government lead by folk who aren't convinced by Brexit and are negotiating to have it. An utter mess.

 

We live in a representative democracy. Simply put politicians should have the courage of their convictions to bring forward their intentions to the people at each election. If Brexit is that, make it a key pledge. If it's Indy, same thing. And if they succeed or fail at the ballot box, we move on.

 

1 minute ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

I agree about the irrational and emotive nature of referenda, but they're required to settle massive constitutional issues.

 

Disagree. Emotive and irrational consideration do not lead to good decisions. Busses and billboards, tv studio debates do not make informed voters on such hugely conplex issues.

 

Informed debate, controlled and moderated, with a variety of committees, reports and studies feeding into debate and a decision then made by those representatives do make good decisions or less emotionally charged ones.

 

It's why we have parliaments and courts. Otherwise it's a slope to mob rule.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

The Bank of England predicted that 10,000-75,000 jobs would be lost.  I acknowledge that at this time it's a shot in the dark though, but the early signs are far from promising.

 

Every single individual with professional credentials predicts its going to be a disaster, the public appear to be slowly realizing this too given the recent Guardian polling.

Not true and fortunately the decision is not up to people with "professional credentials" most of whom got the immediate impact of a leave vote spectacularly wrong. 

[JamboX2]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

So the devolved Parliaments are being screwed. 

Oh and the MSM and Tory misinformation on the lion rampant. Ffs Britnats it is.

 

I don't give much cares on flags. 

 

But when you have two groups of competing nationalisms - scotnats v britnats or remoaners v brextremists - then shite like this gets air time and fans the flames.

 

Mind the blue passport crap? The National ran a series of "why does it matter?" peices. Then it eas shown a year or two earlier they'd been selling passport covers so you could put your maroon UK passport in a blue cover with "Scottish Passport" on it and the unicorn and saltire.

 

Utter hypocritical nonsense. The ulsterfication of Scottish politics is being created by both sides.