Hard Brexit

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

We were asked to vote on a UK issue and all got one vote each. I was as gutted as many the morning of the result. But it didn't feel undemocratic, not to me anyway.

 

As above, I get that, and those were the rules.  As I said, in a union of equal nations, some are more equal than others.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Of course nationally the constituents of 90% aren't equal to the constituents of 10% in electoral terms. Scotland for example has had 300 years to grasp this. Yet recently voted to retain this self evident status.

 

Baffling, isn't it?

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

NI voted to remain in the EU referendum.  Therefore, leave is in the minority, in relation to how NI voted.

 

 

Yes, I get that, merely highlighting how we as individual nations within one union do not have an equal voice.

 

The problem with that argument is that NI wants to remain in the UK, and like Scotland has a smaller proportion of the population than England so basic maths shows that England can always outvote the other nations combined in nationwide referendums.

 

That is the current process, and I guess if the other countries wished they could vote in Westminster to change the referendum criteria to force a super majority decision perhaps.  Of course, that could be taken badly by the SNP for their hopes at winning an Indy 2 referendum if say 75% - 90% was required to force change.

Edited October 16, 2018 by frankblack

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Baffling, isn't it?

Democracy often is.

[pablo]

Is this not the problem with conflating the EU referendum result with UK constitutional matters?

 

How many of the 62% remain were No voters? I voted Remain for the UK, but not sure I would if it had been a question for an independent Scotland. Etc etc.

 

 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

Is this not the problem with conflating the EU referendum result with UK constitutional matters?

 

How many of the 62% remain were No voters? I voted Remain for the UK, but not sure I would if it had been a question for an independent Scotland. Etc etc.

 

 

 

Likewise how many leave were Yes voters.

[Boris]

10 minutes ago, pablo said:

Is this not the problem with conflating the EU referendum result with UK constitutional matters?

 

How many of the 62% remain were No voters? I voted Remain for the UK, but not sure I would if it had been a question for an independent Scotland. Etc etc.

 

 

 

Perhaps it is, but I can't help but feel the two are in many ways interlinked (the EU membership and its relationship with the UK constitution).

 

IMO, the UK political system has long had a democratic deficit, for want of a phrase.  From its electoral system, to an unelected second house, to the roll out of devolution and the consequent constitutional landscape post this.

 

The post Indy Ref position, talks of a "vow", language used to describe the Union as one of equals, has been shown to be, at best, fragile.

 

Taking a step back, had there been an option in 2014 to reconstitute the UK, I'd probably have been happy to go with that.  The inflexibility of the main unionist parties (Labour and Tory) have forced my hand.  The liberals were always for federalising the UK so one could argue that is my "home", but everything else they offer, no thanks.  I'm sure I am on record at the time as saying had Yes won by the slimmest of margins (like the EU ref) I would have been uncomfortable with Scotland becoming independent.

 

I'm certainly not equating leave with no (in Scottish terms) and equally not equating remain with yes.  Even I am not that naive!

 

The country (UK) has held a referendum regards EU membership that was more about placating/destroying the Tory Party and its infighting, as I see it at least.

 

So I can respect that the majority voted to leave the EU.  What leaving the EU means is up for grabs though.  Some will say it means totally out of the single market/customs union, some will argue differently.  Point is, these choices were not put to the people in that vote.  So rather than see a cross-party working group to sift through this shit-show, we are again left with a divided Tory Party doing what they want to in the name of the result.  Would the vote have been any different if these options were known then?

 

Then there are the various breaches of electroal law, that the Met are unsure of whether to proceed or not.  Back to the democratic deficit then.

 

Whatever the outcome, this country (UK) is seriously divided, with language and rhetoric used that is more akin to demagouges than democrats.  Perhaps the UK is a micrososm of the decay in Western democracy in general, but I genuinely fear for the route this country is going down.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Likewise how many leave were Yes voters.

 

Around about 36% according to some stats/polls which were taken just after the EU referendum.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14950013.36-of-snp-and-labour-supporters-backed-brexit-finds-survey/

 

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Around about 36% according to some stats/polls which were taken just after the EU referendum.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14950013.36-of-snp-and-labour-supporters-backed-brexit-finds-survey/

 

 

It was the SNP's arrogance to dismiss this straight after the Brexit referendum that finally turned me against them.  It seems they only respect referendums if they go in their favour.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It was the SNP's arrogance to dismiss this straight after the Brexit referendum that finally turned me against them.  It seems they only respect referendums if they go in their favour.

 

It's not just the SNP as there are many in every party who only want to respect the result as long as they win it.

 

We had a 'peoples vote' back in 2016 and if the remain minded MP's don't like the result, then why did they vote to allow the British people a vote in the first place, remember parliament voted 6-1 in favour of holding a EU referendum so there will be many MP's who voted to allow a vote who are now trying to get it re-run and hope that the original result gets overturned and all because they lost and don't like it.

[frankblack]

41 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

It's not just the SNP as there are many in every party who only want to respect the result as long as they win it.

 

We had a 'peoples vote' back in 2016 and if the remain minded MP's don't like the result, then why did they vote to allow the British people a vote in the first place, remember parliament voted 6-1 in favour of holding a EU referendum so there will be many MP's who voted to allow a vote who are now trying to get it re-run and hope that the original result gets overturned and all because they lost and don't like it.

?

[Francis Albert]

In the States for a few days I thought I might escape Project Fear for a while. But here is the New York Times lead story of its International section (p4 of the paper).

"READRUTH England. Her cupboards are jammed with pasta, rice and couscous- enough to feed a family of five for weeks. Medications are crammed into plastic tubs, and in the garden of her four bedroom home stands a 290 gallon water tank. Nevine Mann is not readying herself for the threat of nuclear war or civil disorder ... no the specter that keeps her on edge is Brexit". And so on in nearly a full page of old fahioned broadsheet size. A large photo of her husband and her in their The Good Life style garden accompanies the nonsense.

And to think Leave voters are called thick.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Francis Albert

[jake]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

In the States for a few days I thought I might escape Project Fear for a while. But here is the New York Times lead story of its International section (p4 of the paper).

"READRUTH England. Her cupboards are jammed with pasta, rice and couscous- enough to feed a family of five for weeks. Medications are crammed into plastic tubs, and in the garden of her four bedroom home stands a 290 gallon water tank. Nevine Mann is not readying herself for the threat of nuclear war or civil disorder ... no the specter that keeps her on edge is Brexit". And so on in nearly a full page of old fahioned broadsheet size. A large photo of her husband and her in their The Good Life style garden accompanies the nonsense.

And to think Leave voters are called 

Edited October 17, 2018 by jake

[JamboX2]

31 minutes ago, jake said:

 

There's a higher principal in all of this is there not?

 

Principles don't pay bills. Don't buy food. Don't keep trade free flowing. Don't allow for free movement. Don't ensure our citizens resident in the EU aren't treated as third nation nationals under EU treaty. 

 

All this reminds me of the line from Catch-22, "Anything worth dying for was certainly worth living for". 

 

 

[Cade]

This week's developments in the Brexit negotiations:

 

erm

 

 

ummm

 

 

as you were

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

This week's developments in the Brexit negotiations:

 

erm

 

 

ummm

 

 

as you were

 

Or alternatively, the EU asking for concessions on the Irish solution from us that are unacceptable to the people of NI.  What they want is a united Ireland to leave the UK.

 

The ball is in the EU's court - they make concessions or there is no point continuing the negotiations further.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Or alternatively, the EU asking for concessions on the Irish solution from us that are unacceptable to the people of NI.  What they want is a united Ireland to leave the UK.

 

The ball is in the EU's court - they make concessions or there is no point continuing the negotiations further.

I have no idea why the UK accepted the precondition for negotiations that we should accept a fall back of in effect dismembering the UK. The UK for all its faults gave Scots the right to vote for independence and in the Good Friday agreement commited to accepting a vote in Northern Ireland for the transfer of its territory to the Republic. Yet the EU has exploited to the hilt the threat of the return of the gunmen and bombers to disrupt even unintrusive border controls between the UK and (at least until NI votes otherwise) a proudly  foreign state.

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Principles don't pay bills. Don't buy food. Don't keep trade free flowing. Don't allow for free movement. Don't ensure our citizens resident in the EU aren't treated as third nation nationals under EU treaty. 

 

All this reminds me of the line from Catch-22, "Anything worth dying for was certainly worth living for". 

 

 

The UK has said from day one that EU citizens in the UK will be able to stay. At first it said that this depended on reciprocal treatment for the far smaller numbers of UK citizens living in the EU. Recently it has dropped even this reasonable qualification. Yet the EU continues to hold both UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as hostages in the negotiation. 

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Or alternatively, the EU asking for concessions on the Irish solution from us that are unacceptable to the people of NI.  What they want is a united Ireland to leave the UK.

 

The ball is in the EU's court - they make concessions or there is no point continuing the negotiations further.

Or alternatively the EU have been crystal clear from the off and May keeps taking back the same plan, which won't even make it through her own parliament, back to Brussels hoping for a different outcome.

The ball is and always has been in May's court and she's had two years to deal with it. The price of the support of the religious flat earthers in Belfast looks higher by the day.

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

The UK has said from day one that EU citizens in the UK will be able to stay. At first it said that this depended on reciprocal treatment for the far smaller numbers of UK citizens living in the EU. Recently it has dropped even this reasonable qualification. Yet the EU continues to hold both UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as hostages in the negotiation. 

 

A fact conveniently and consistently ignored/forgotten by the remainers.

3 times May publically asked the EU to make peoples rights not part of the negotiations, that peoples rights could be settled with a simple reciprocal agreement, and 3 times the EU/Merkel said they wouldn't even discuss it until article 50 had been invoked, therefore making peoples rights part of the negotiations.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

May apparently considering a extension period  for the negotiations. Rumoured to be a extra 12months.

 

Maybe this is the cunning plan to just keep kicking into the long grass!!! I wouldn’t necessarily have a massive issue with it If was tiring everything off. However, still trying to agree the fubdenrals is a bit concerning.

 

if the did extent the Tories should take opportunity to use cross party input, I appreciate that is very unlikely to happen.

 

 

 

To late for that now, all the opposing sides (Tories, Labour, Lib Dems) are so entrenched in their views none of them could even agree on the most simplist of issues now.

 

A prominent leaver (can't remember who) said ages ago that the EU would try and keep kicking the can down the road for as long as they could, therefore keeping the UK in the EU for as long as they could and also at some point there will have to be a general election in the UK and the EU would hope that either a more pro-EU Tory party or Labour would win and brexit could then be undermined and perhaps scraped altogether.

 

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Or alternatively the EU have been crystal clear from the off and May keeps taking back the same plan, which won't even make it through her own parliament, back to Brussels hoping for a different outcome.

The ball is and always has been in May's court and she's had two years to deal with it. The price of the support of the religious flat earthers in Belfast looks higher by the day.

 

 

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that it takes give and take on both sides to negotiate.  You seriously think the UK can throw NI under a bus and not face any domestic consequences?

 

I think the fact that the UK can walk away at any time and pay the EU sod all is going to have a serious negative impact on the EU's budget.  It all comes down to who blinks first in the negotiations, and the EU are going to face serious pressure from the significant members like Germany to agree something.

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

To late for that now, all the opposing sides (Tories, Labour, Lib Dems) are so entrenched in their views none of them could even agree on the most simplist of issues now.

 

A prominent leaver (can't remember who) said ages ago that the EU would try and keep kicking the can down the road for as long as they could, therefore keeping the UK in the EU for as long as they could and also at some point there will have to be a general election in the UK and the EU would hope that either a more pro-EU Tory party or Labour would win and brexit could then be undermined and perhaps scraped altogether.

 

 

That has always been the plan for the EU - bury their heads in the sand and hope that domestic circumstances such as a change in UK government or another referendum will reverse the previous one.

 

I doubt Theresa May is going to give them the oportunity to let this drag until the next General Election and undermine the wll of the people - we will walk out with no deal.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That has always been the plan for the EU - bury their heads in the sand and hope that domestic circumstances such as a change in UK government or another referendum will reverse the previous one.

 

I doubt Theresa May is going to give them the oportunity to let this drag until the next General Election and undermine the wll of the people - we will walk out with no deal.

 

After 2 years of the EU consistantly saying NO to everything the UK put forward the UK should have walked away long before now.

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Didn't realise this until it was mentioned on the TV just now.

 

This proposed extra transitional year would mean that the UK would still be a member of the EU until 2021.

The new EU budget is also in 2021, so the question is would the UK still be expected to pay into the new budget which would run until 2027.

Best to get out before the next EU budget, just in case the UK get's roped into paying even more to the EU.

[The Real Maroonblood]

47 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

To late for that now, all the opposing sides (Tories, Labour, Lib Dems) are so entrenched in their views none of them could even agree on the most simplist of issues now.

 

A prominent leaver (can't remember who) said ages ago that the EU would try and keep kicking the can down the road for as long as they could, therefore keeping the UK in the EU for as long as they could and also at some point there will have to be a general election in the UK and the EU would hope that either a more pro-EU Tory party or Labour would win and brexit could then be undermined and perhaps scraped altogether.

 

Your last paragraph is interesting.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Your last paragraph is interesting.

 

I wish I could remember who it was, but whoever it was has been pretty much on the money in their predictions of how the EU would handle this.

 

An update on how much money the UK would have to pay the EU.

Just said on tv that the UK would be paying into the EU around €10bn every year of the transition, but if it went into 2021 that figure would increase to around €18bn for 2021 and after that, who knows.

So it makes it all the more important to get out before 2021.

[Cade]

UK: "We want to close the borders!"

Reality: "Doesn't that violate the Good Friday Agreement?"

UK: "BREXIT MEANS BREXIT"

 

That's how far we've come in two years.

 

It's almost as if someone should have thought about the NI border BEFORE triggering Article 50.

[The Real Maroonblood]

18 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I wish I could remember who it was, but whoever it was has been pretty much on the money in their predictions of how the EU would handle this.

 

An update on how much money the UK would have to pay the EU.

Just said on tv that the UK would be paying into the EU around €10bn every year of the transition, but if it went into 2021 that figure would increase to around €18bn for 2021 and after that, who knows.

So it makes it all the more important to get out before 2021.

That’s a helluva lot of money.

So the quicker the better to get out is spot on.

[frankblack]

15 minutes ago, Cade said:

UK: "We want to close the borders!"

Reality: "Doesn't that violate the Good Friday Agreement?"

UK: "BREXIT MEANS BREXIT"

 

That's how far we've come in two years.

 

It's almost as if someone should have thought about the NI border BEFORE triggering Article 50.

 

1/10 - Must try harder

 

Isn't it the EU that are insisting on a hard border in place with the republic post brexit and offering no alternative?

 

I assume that if we leave with No Deal that the EU will have to create and man the border themselves?

Edited October 18, 2018 by frankblack

[Boris]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

1/10 - Must try harder

 

Isn't it the EU that are insisting on a hard border in place with the republic post brexit and offering no alternative?

 

I assume that if we leave with No Deal that the EU will have to create and man the border themselves?

 

I suspect that will be the responsibility of the Dublin Government to staff the border, but the UK will have to do likewise as it is the UK that is creating the hard border by leaving the single market/customs union and the freedom of movement associated therein.

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that it takes give and take on both sides to negotiate.  You seriously think the UK can throw NI under a bus and not face any domestic consequences?

 

I think the fact that the UK can walk away at any time and pay the EU sod all is going to have a serious negative impact on the EU's budget.  It all comes down to who blinks first in the negotiations, and the EU are going to face serious pressure from the significant members like Germany to agree something.

You're ignoring the fact the EU isn't leaving the UK. It isnt really the EU's problem. 

Furthermore walking away paying sod all does not prevent a hard border in Ireland and the domestic consequences you speak of. 

Tell me again, who holds the aces?

[Boris]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I think the fact that the UK can walk away at any time and pay the EU sod all is going to have a serious negative impact on the EU's budget. 

 

I'm not sure that is a fact, is it?  We do have some liability.  If we don't pay that, then I would expect us to be taken to court over that.  Getting trade deals while welching on agreements may be harder?

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I wonder about this to be honest. I assumed it would be the Irish to form the border under direction from the EU. It appears to me the Uk govt don’t want a hard border. 

 

If the U.K. don’t want to form a hard border it would be difficult to anything if they didn’t actually form one. 

 

I get not straight forward but how do you form a hard border if other side just went meh. 

 

I also can’t believe all parties can’t knock out a solution that works for the majority Ireland of no hard border. Indepedance ever happens I guess we would have similar issues. I certainly wouldn’t want a hard border with England.

 

If the UK side went "meh" then goods would travel freely from South to North, as would people (taking back control remember!) but it wouldn't be reciprocated.  Goods coming from Non EU to Eu need regulated I think, so as to stop chlorinated chicken getting on the shelves, or dodgy widgets that break as not to EU standard etc etc.

 

I doubt the UK would be so open tbh.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

1/10 - Must try harder

 

Isn't it the EU that are insisting on a hard border in place with the republic post brexit and offering no alternative?

 

I assume that if we leave with No Deal that the EU will have to create and man the border themselves?

 

Yes that's what will happen. The EU will stick up one way border checkpoints because they offered no alternative. 

 

Perhaps the UK should do the same with the entry points into the mainland UK. I'm sure the French will be more than accomodating in making sure the 'maurauding hordes' of immigrants definitely don't try to access the UK via the channel ports etc.

 

Do you write policy for Rees Mogg, Johnson et al? It all sounds familiar.

[frankblack]

24 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Yes that's what will happen. The EU will stick up one way border checkpoints because they offered no alternative. 

 

Perhaps the UK should do the same with the entry points into the mainland UK. I'm sure the French will be more than accomodating in making sure the 'maurauding hordes' of immigrants definitely don't try to access the UK via the channel ports etc.

 

Do you write policy for Rees Mogg, Johnson et al? It all sounds familiar.

 

Oh dear. 

 

Project Fear is strong with this one.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Oh dear. 

 

Project Fear is strong with this one.

Ah the old dodge and deflect.

 

So this no deal and the Irish border then?

 

Take your time.

[frankblack]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

Ah the old dodge and deflect.

 

So this no deal and the Irish border then?

 

Take your time.

 

The Irish border is up to the EU to be open and negotiate on or it gets dumped on them to fix in a no deal scenario.  I trust that clarifies matters.

[Cade]

It's the UK that's demanding closed borders.

It's also the UK that's demanding an open border in NI.

It's also the UK that's having internal issues because NI can't be seen to have special treatment over England, Scotland and Wales.

It's all entirely the UK's fault and the UK's problem to solve.

 

All the EU can do is politely remind the UK of it's rules on external borders and the indivisibility of the 4 Freedoms.

[The Mighty Thor]

13 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The Irish border is up to the EU to be open and negotiate on or it gets dumped on them to fix in a no deal scenario.  I trust that clarifies matters.

Wow. Thats some negotiating position. So this domestic disorder you mentioned? 

EU's fault?

 

 

 

 

[jambo lodge]

7 minutes ago, Cade said:

It's the UK that's demanding closed borders.

It's also the UK that's demanding an open border in NI.

It's also the UK that's having internal issues because NI can't be seen to have special treatment over England, Scotland and Wales.

It's all entirely the UK's fault and the UK's problem to solve.

 

All the EU can do is politely remind the UK of it's rules on external borders and the indivisibility of the 4 Freedoms.

The UK doesn't want a hard border with the Republic and whatever happens will not build one. We have consistently argued for a technological solution to border checks. Any future trade deal with the EU will do away with the hard border issue. Its a complete red herring thought up by the EU as a stick to use in negotiations. 

[frankblack]

10 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Wow. Thats some negotiating position. So this domestic disorder you mentioned? 

EU's fault?

 

 

 

 

 

Something tells me that whatever anyone tells you it is still the UK's fault.  Remain lost, time to man up and accept it.

 

See the post below, which says all I need to say on the matter.

 

7 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

The UK doesn't want a hard border with the Republic and whatever happens will not build one. We have consistently argued for a technological solution to border checks. Any future trade deal with the EU will do away with the hard border issue. Its a complete red herring thought up by the EU as a stick to use in negotiations. 

 

Trying to explain this to the remoaners is sadly a lost cause as they aren't interested.

[Boris]

17 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

The UK doesn't want a hard border with the Republic and whatever happens will not build one. We have consistently argued for a technological solution to border checks. Any future trade deal with the EU will do away with the hard border issue. Its a complete red herring thought up by the EU as a stick to use in negotiations. 

 

Argued, perhaps, but yet to see anything tangible to suggest there is actually such a thing!

 

When will this technological solution be ready?

[Rab87]

The can is well and truly being kicked down the road.

 

Delaying the inevitable in my opinion. There is no feasible solution to the Irish border issue that will keep everyone happy. Unless I have missed something...?

[Cade]

The "Technonlgical solution" doesn't feckin exist.

 

Try again.

[jambo lodge]

20 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Argued, perhaps, but yet to see anything tangible to suggest there is actually such a thing!

 

When will this technological solution be ready?

There is already spot checks on livestock transfer between Britain and Northern Ireland which uses technology passports, there is always a solution when you really want one. If we do get a frictionless free trade deal then the last year of negotiations has been a huge waste of time. 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Cade said:

The "Technonlgical solution" doesn't feckin exist.

 

Try again.

 

You know for sure that this couldn't be delivered after the transition period or are you just speculating?

[jambo lodge]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

The "Technonlgical solution" doesn't feckin exist.

 

Try again.

Never been to America using a technology visa?

[Francis Albert]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

UK: "We want to close the borders!"

Reality: "Doesn't that violate the Good Friday Agreement?"

UK: "BREXIT MEANS BREXIT"

 

That's how far we've come in two years.

 

It's almost as if someone should have thought about the NI border BEFORE triggering Article 50.

The Good Friday Agreement does not mention the NI border yet the myth that it says there can"t be border comtrols seems to live on regardless.

 

[Don Dan]

The technology is there. Here’s an example or two. Order an item on line and it can be tracked all the way from the depot to your door. 

I recently had to get my MacBook repaired. I made an appointment on line to visit the store on Princes Street and as I made my way on that day  to the store I got a message on my phone saying welcome to the Apple Store as I approached the store. Cars are another example of technology. The Merc I had would communicate with Daimler Headquarters and update my location, service needs etc. in real time. I was phoned by them to make an appointment for a service that was due.

So for any of the doubters who dismiss the Technology as none existent trust me it’s there.