Bitcoin and all that

[Unknown user]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Don't see the problem with the credit card companies banning purchases of crypto tbh. It's their money afterall

It's purely political though of course. You can use the same credit card to take out cash and set fire to it, or buy £10k worth of sweets and eat them all. You could go on a bender for a month and spend  whatever you want on whatever you want, ending up without a thing to show for it, and your credit card company couldn't care less that your spending had brought in zero assets. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On 12/13/2017 at 09:49, Ugly American said:

Cheers to all those making bank on this but some folks are going to lose an enormous amount of money on all this at some point...

 

No joy in being right on this. Could see folk jumping in with both feet and have been wincing the whole way.

 

Don't think it's found the bottom yet either. 

[sprinbox98]

Down to $6.3k....apprecite it’s volatile but with the mass panic selling I can’t see it getting up to the heights it reached in the last couple of months.

[doctor jambo]

I'd have to admit- it was really tempting to buy in and pump some thousands into it- the attraction was obvious- especially for those with financial worries.

 

Even if you bought in at $8000 and pitched out at $18000 - many people could have paid off their debts in a  matter of months

 

I could be mortgage free.........

 

But many have lost fortunes now, and will need to chase their losses

[jack D and coke]

7 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

No joy in being right on this. Could see folk jumping in with both feet and have been wincing the whole way.

 

Don't think it's found the bottom yet either. 

There’s huge government pressure on crypto at the moment which is causing this fall.  Add to the pant wetters cashing out it’s causing it to drop pretty heavily. 

I’m not in that deep anyway and tbh anybody that was is an absolute idiot but I believe if you hold on it’ll come back again. 

[Jeff]

27 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

There’s huge government pressure on crypto at the moment which is causing this fall.  Add to the pant wetters cashing out it’s causing it to drop pretty heavily. 

I’m not in that deep anyway and tbh anybody that was is an absolute idiot but I believe if you hold on it’ll come back again. 

 

Think a lot of the sellers at the moment are the guys who loved the anonymous side of things. Once there are rules and regulations with online currencies around the world the price will eventually rise back up - in my opinion of course. 

[Unknown user]

35 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

There’s huge government pressure on crypto at the moment which is causing this fall.  Add to the pant wetters cashing out it’s causing it to drop pretty heavily. 

I’m not in that deep anyway and tbh anybody that was is an absolute idiot but I believe if you hold on it’ll come back again. 

Yep

 

 

[doctor jambo]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Think a lot of the sellers at the moment are the guys who loved the anonymous side of things. Once there are rules and regulations with online currencies around the world the price will eventually rise back up - in my opinion of course. 

I suspect a lot of the sellers are just trying to get their profits out in case it utterly bombs,

coupled with people who bought in late who are trying to minimise their losses in case it utterly bombs.

 

Once there are rules and regulations with online currencies , then the online currencies will be, erm, pointless,

The whole idea being that if I want to move £4million from UK anywhere in the world without it being spotted the only way I can do that is crypto.

I can do it from my home and move it anywhere  I want , then drip it back into real currency once I arrive at my desired destination.

Remove that and you just have a standard currency

[doctor jambo]

now under $6000 and continuing to fall

World central banks chief now describing it as a con trick and a Ponzi scheme

 

 

ouch

[Craig_]

11 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

now under $6000 and continuing to fall

World central banks chief now describing it as a con trick and a Ponzi scheme

 

 

ouch

 

I'm no lover of BTC, but it's currently sitting at over £7k and on the rise.

 

And the Bank of International Settlements are probably the ones who stand to lose most from widespread adoption of blockchains, hence his quote.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

now under $6000 and continuing to fall

World central banks chief now describing it as a con trick and a Ponzi scheme

 

 

ouch

Oh my God, banks don't approve of cryptocurrency?? Who'd've thunk it?

[Ray Gin]

Never trust a banker.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

3 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

now under $6000 and continuing to fall

World central banks chief now describing it as a con trick and a Ponzi scheme

 

 

ouch

I've always thought that

[Unknown user]

Just now, Toxteth O'Grady said:

I've always thought that

In what way is it a ponzi scheme rather than a commodity whose price goes up and down?

[jack D and coke]

4 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

now under $6000 and continuing to fall

World central banks chief now describing it as a con trick and a Ponzi scheme

 

 

ouch

Crypto was basically invented to fight back against the banks. Consider me shocked to see them trying to undermine it. 

 

[Jeff]

I dont get this whole 'ponzi scheme' stuff. You have ebay and amazon talking about accepting bitcoin, large banks partnering up with Ripple and Casinos joining up with other alts.

 

Tis the future

[Unknown user]

18 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

No joy in being right on this. Could see folk jumping in with both feet and have been wincing the whole way.

 

Don't think it's found the bottom yet either. 

It's a new thing altogether UA, I expect another major wave of rises at some point but the truth is we're in uncharted waters and we don't know what's coming next.

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I dont get this whole 'ponzi scheme' stuff. You have ebay and amazon talking about accepting bitcoin, large banks partnering up with Ripple and Casinos joining up with other alts.

 

Tis the future

I can understand the layman using the term ponzi scheme, but it actually shows a frightening level of financial illiteracy for a top banker to use it.

A ponzi scheme is a very specific type of fraud that isn't in any way applicable to trading in crypto. It's an unregulated stock market, end of story. 

 

I meant to say earlier, it occurred to me today that it's possible the last 12 months have been the biggest pump and dump the world's seen!

[Toxteth O'Grady]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

In what way is it a ponzi scheme rather than a commodity whose price goes up and down?

A commodity physically  exists - it usually has a use and therefore some worth. Virtual currency only exists in the minds of people  - it is a con - like religion 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

A commodity physically  exists - it usually has a use and therefore some worth. Virtual currency only exists in the minds of people  - it is a con - like religion 

That's very simplistic. Futures are traded all the time, and as for "virtual currency", all currency is virtual, it's all just numbers on a hard drive.

 

But you used the term ponzi scheme, it's certainly not that, and five minutes researching bitcoin history will tell you it's been around for literally years before catching on like it has recently. It's not a con, it's a new concept. Whether it sinks or swims as a concept in the long run remains to be seen, but it's certainly fascinating. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

45 minutes ago, Smithee said:

It's a new thing altogether UA, I expect another major wave of rises at some point but the truth is we're in uncharted waters and we don't know what's coming next.

 

It's a set of currencies with no securing agency, no use value external to their exchange value, incredibly energy intensive, and while each individual currency is restricted on ease of production, new currencies can be introduced with impunity. The mediating agencies are a lot of online exchanges with no regulation and no oversight, meaning the risk for insider trading is astronomically high.

 

The primary value versus a standard currency is avoidance of government oversight, which means you've jumped into a pool blind with, sure, a bunch of hard-core libertarians and software pirates, but also international money launderers and organized criminals.

 

There was literally no reason whatsoever for bitcoin to cost $14k except that people were excited about it growing. That's the very definition of a bubble.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Ugly American said:

 

It's a set of currencies with no securing agency, no use value external to their exchange value, incredibly energy intensive, and while each individual currency is restricted on ease of production, new currencies can be introduced with impunity. The mediating agencies are a lot of online exchanges with no regulation and no oversight, meaning the risk for insider trading is astronomically high.

 

The primary value versus a standard currency is avoidance of government oversight, which means you've jumped into a pool blind with, sure, a bunch of hard-core libertarians and software pirates, but also international money launderers and organized criminals.

 

There was literally no reason whatsoever for bitcoin to cost $14k except that people were excited about it growing. That's the very definition of a bubble.

I think your view is fair if a bit uneducated. You say they're incredibly energy intensive, which I take to mean in mining terms, but not all cryptocurrencies work in that way. Some operate on a Proof of stake principle rather then Proof of work, something which requires very little energy expenditure to earn new coins - the scenes evolving all the time. Like all speculation, excitement raises prices, but I see no reason this or other crypto bubbles couldn't inflate again. There's a whole infrastructure there and people like ducking and diving - I can't see that just disappearing myself. 

[Ray Gin]

Much better stuff today. Big rises, no doubt to be followed by another big overnight drop.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I think your view is fair if a bit uneducated. You say they're incredibly energy intensive, which I take to mean in mining terms, but not all cryptocurrencies work in that way. Some operate on a Proof of stake principle rather then Proof of work, something which requires very little energy expenditure to earn new coins - the scenes evolving all the time. Like all speculation, excitement raises prices, but I see no reason this or other crypto bubbles couldn't inflate again. There's a whole infrastructure there and people like ducking and diving - I can't see that just disappearing myself. 

 

The bubble may inflate again but I think a fair number of people will be once-bitten, twice-shy, so it will never be as big again. The energy intensiveness is really just a bad side effect -- get rid of it and the structural problems remain.

 

I never claimed it was going away. I claimed a lot of people would lose a lot of money on it, and if there's another bubble, then presumably people will lose again. But if you can't explain *why* the cost of an asset is going through the roof other than that it's going up so people want to get in on the ride, that means sooner or later it's going to burst.

 

It's all speculation, which I suppose can be a fun ride to jump on, and a fair number here seem to be doing just that -- enjoying the ride. And fair dos. But some folk (not necessarily here) were clearly starting to get serious about this, and that was hard to watch.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

Much better stuff today. Big rises, no doubt to be followed by another big overnight drop.

 

I said a few pages ago that there would be one last massive drop and I reckon it should even out slowly now. 

 

Chinese new year approaching too which should help

[Unknown user]

Meanwhile, today's senate hearing on crypto was actually fairly accepting of the subject

 

-The regulatory offices have a hiring freeze right now, so budget is very constraint (suggests no need to create a department just for crypto regulation/enforcement)

- They already have a team in place, made of economists and technology specialists, which are researching crypto and already made progress on preventing scams. Suggests it's enough for now and further regulation is not necessary.

- Main issue are ICOs and scams. The chairmen said they are working together on preventing scams and have already enforced non-crypto related laws in this regard.

- Bitcoin should not be considered a security, but rather a commodity, one of the chairman even refers to the term HODL and what it stands for, says it's used primarily as a store of value. Says his 30-year old niece holds Bitcoin.

- When asked about whether there's an intrinsic value to BTC, one chairman said that while he can't understand the details, there seems to be intrinsic value linked to the underlying technology of Bitcoin, not just market demand.

- Blockchain and cryptocurrencies are linked and strict regulations on crypto could stomp tech progress.

- Crypto has an utility on a larger scale and not just for trading.

- The crypto market is very small scale and needs time to develop, to see if regulations are in fact needed.

- On educating potential investors, chairmen say the crypto community is educating itself and understand the risks,  (they say the community goes to libraries to research Bitcoin).

- One senator talks about the recent Coincheck hack. Chairmen replies that their authority is limited, since foreign exchanges could be used. It's a gap, but it doesn't fall under SEC/CTFC regulation.

In general, in regards to regulation, the answer is that it's inconclusive. It might be needed, but for the moment there's no threat due to the lack of maturity of the crypto market.

 

This summary is from Teknochain who are obviously biased, but you can Google it for yourselves to double check if in any doubt

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Meanwhile, today's senate hearing on crypto was actually fairly accepting of the subject

 

-The regulatory offices have a hiring freeze right now, so budget is very constraint (suggests no need to create a department just for crypto regulation/enforcement)

- They already have a team in place, made of economists and technology specialists, which are researching crypto and already made progress on preventing scams. Suggests it's enough for now and further regulation is not necessary.

- Main issue are ICOs and scams. The chairmen said they are working together on preventing scams and have already enforced non-crypto related laws in this regard.

- Bitcoin should not be considered a security, but rather a commodity, one of the chairman even refers to the term HODL and what it stands for, says it's used primarily as a store of value. Says his 30-year old niece holds Bitcoin.

- When asked about whether there's an intrinsic value to BTC, one chairman said that while he can't understand the details, there seems to be intrinsic value linked to the underlying technology of Bitcoin, not just market demand.

- Blockchain and cryptocurrencies are linked and strict regulations on crypto could stomp tech progress.

- Crypto has an utility on a larger scale and not just for trading.

- The crypto market is very small scale and needs time to develop, to see if regulations are in fact needed.

- On educating potential investors, chairmen say the crypto community is educating itself and understand the risks,  (they say the community goes to libraries to research Bitcoin).

- One senator talks about the recent Coincheck hack. Chairmen replies that their authority is limited, since foreign exchanges could be used. It's a gap, but it doesn't fall under SEC/CTFC regulation.

In general, in regards to regulation, the answer is that it's inconclusive. It might be needed, but for the moment there's no threat due to the lack of maturity of the crypto market.

 

This summary is from Teknochain who are obviously biased, but you can Google it for yourselves to double check if in any doubt

 

It's South Korea and China that are holding things up right now. Think we need some big news from both and we could be off again

[HeartOfWestLothian]

How has everyone been the past month?

 

Panic selling or quietly purchasing more of your favourite crypto?

[redjambo]

The energy required for creating cryptocurrencies in Iceland is set to overtake home energy use.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43030677

 

Human beings: limited energy resources on this planet (until we can efficiently harness solar-created energy) and we're wasting it on creating unnecessary cryptocurrency.

 

Splendid race that we are.

[Craig_]

49 minutes ago, HeartOfWestLothian said:

How has everyone been the past month?

 

Panic selling or quietly purchasing more of your favourite crypto?

 

Still holding on for dear life. Got a mix of ETH, XRP, HPB and XLM. Mainly XRP though, seems like the one with the most real world applications, and hence the most upside! 

[Ray Gin]

1 hour ago, HeartOfWestLothian said:

How has everyone been the past month?

 

Panic selling or quietly purchasing more of your favourite crypto?

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, HeartOfWestLothian said:

How has everyone been the past month?

 

Panic selling or quietly purchasing more of your favourite crypto?

Quietly holding. I don't fancy pouring money in when I move country in a couple of weeks or I'd be buying just now. I'd probably be fairly conservative though. 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

The energy required for creating cryptocurrencies in Iceland is set to overtake home energy use.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43030677

 

Human beings: limited energy resources on this planet (until we can efficiently harness solar-created energy) and we're wasting it on creating unnecessary cryptocurrency.

 

Splendid race that we are.

That's bitcoin for you, I don't like Proof of work as a concept for exactly this reason. Proof of stake does the same job - incentivising nodes to stay on line and introducing new coins- but without the need for ridiculously energy hungry mining. 

I think Bitcoin will be the betamax of cryptos myself

[Jeff]

Approaching Chinese new year and we are already seeing some rises

[Ray Gin]

39 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Approaching Chinese new year and we are already seeing some rises

 

Big moves by Litecoin today!  I'm still almost 30% down on it, but considerably better than being almost 60% down about a week ago.

[HeartOfWestLothian]

I have been up anyway despite the recent "dip". 

 

I've increased my holdings in BTC and ETH mainly. 

 

I had money set aside for when wanchain got listed but that's still not happened? I don't know if the team were reluctant to launch it on an exchange when everything was dipping?

[jack D and coke]

Im Imagining everybody is now losing money are they? First time my modest investments in cryptos is all below what I originally paid for them. 

Every single one has taken a battering the last few weeks. It’s been said a couple of hundred times but is it finally collapsing this time? Can it come back again? 

[hughesie27]

Bitcoins been fairly level last month or 2 I think. however between 5000/6000 $ usually.

[jack D and coke]

19 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Bitcoins been fairly level last month or 2 I think. however between 5000/6000 $ usually.

It’s been fairly level but considering it was at £16k in December it’s taken quite a tumble as has Ethereum last few weeks. Litecoin now at £100 and a few others have collapsed. Cardano, VeChain and TNT are ones I had a little bit in and have lost a lot of their value. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s been fairly level but considering it was at £16k in December it’s taken quite a tumble as has Ethereum last few weeks. Litecoin now at £100 and a few others have collapsed. Cardano, VeChain and TNT are ones I had a little bit in and have lost a lot of their value. 

Worse that that, it's boring now!

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Worse that that, it's boring now!

 aye the huge sways up and down were pretty exciting at first and I think I was about £500 up and pretty quickly had I taken it out but now looking at maybe £100 loss....

Guess I’ll be leaving it all for the long term now and hoping it gains some traction again. 

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Worse that that, it's boring now!

 

But it did make some individuals very rich and that was the whole point of many, if not most, of the virtual currencies. Oh I'm sure that some folk actually had high-falluting ideals about creating currencies that were outside government and central bank control, and of global cooperation, but they only served to make the first category of individual very rich.

[cosanostra]

Well the arse has fairly fallen out of that one.

Anyone think Ethereum might recover back to what it was previously? It's now worth about what it was when I bought it. 

 

[Ministry]

A lot of people buying into all this way too late, just to inflate the returns for the early comers, before then losing a load of money. 

 

Unfortuantly all this cryptocurrency stuff became mainstream and led people with very little financial literacy (possibly including some on here) to invest. 

[William H. Bonney]

20 minutes ago, Ministry said:

A lot of people buying into all this way too late, just to inflate the returns for the early comers, before then losing a load of money. 

 

Unfortuantly all this cryptocurrency stuff became mainstream and led people with very little financial literacy (possibly including some on here) to invest. 

 

Guilty 

[jack D and coke]

32 minutes ago, Ministry said:

A lot of people buying into all this way too late, just to inflate the returns for the early comers, before then losing a load of money. 

 

Unfortuantly all this cryptocurrency stuff became mainstream and led people with very little financial literacy (possibly including some on here) to invest. 

There’s never been anything like it before though. I still believe it has a future, crypto is a great idea. A lot of the ICO’s will completely collapse but there were far too many anyway. The main ones will be around for a while and hopefully will rise again too. 

[Sooperstar]

I am shocked that people have lost money with this.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

There’s never been anything like it before though. I still believe it has a future, crypto is a great idea. A lot of the ICO’s will completely collapse but there were far too many anyway. The main ones will be around for a while and hopefully will rise again too. 

I think so too

[Ministry]

3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

There’s never been anything like it before though. I still believe it has a future, crypto is a great idea. A lot of the ICO’s will completely collapse but there were far too many anyway. The main ones will be around for a while and hopefully will rise again too. 

Crypto may have some sort of future, but no way will the major governments of the world allow it to be as big a future as people were fantasising about in 2017.

 

There is way too much scope in its current form for Crypto to be used for money laundering, and/or tax evasion. 

 

Once the financial regulators get involved, the ambitions of crypto will have to be scaled back. And by extension it’s value will be scaled down with it. 

 

I wouldnt be surprised if upcoming investigations find out that Bitcoin was one massive “pump and dump” that made a handful of traders a fantastic amount of money. As well as some visionary/lucky early adopters.

 

All those who jumped on the bandwagon in the 2nd half of 2017 have bought at the height, and the only way is down from there. 

[jack D and coke]

26 minutes ago, Ministry said:

Crypto may have some sort of future, but no way will the major governments of the world allow it to be as big a future as people were fantasising about in 2017.

 

There is way too much scope in its current form for Crypto to be used for money laundering, and/or tax evasion. 

 

Once the financial regulators get involved, the ambitions of crypto will have to be scaled back. And by extension it’s value will be scaled down with it. 

 

I wouldnt be surprised if upcoming investigations find out that Bitcoin was one massive “pump and dump” that made a handful of traders a fantastic amount of money. As well as some visionary/lucky early adopters.

 

All those who jumped on the bandwagon in the 2nd half of 2017 have bought at the height, and the only way is down from there. 

Yeah it’s likely to get curtailed in some ways but with the internet being the way it is these days the cat is already out the bag I reckon.