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Catalonia referendum


Rab87

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Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

Wow - so you are a raving British nationalist? Not only that, but having moved to and made a life for yourself in Spain, you voted to deny millions of Britons that same chance?

 

What a lad you truly are if so. 

What British person is prevented from moving to Spain?

 

They might have to fill in some forms, I'll give you that. I mean to say, Spain is full of Russians, Ukrainians, Americans and Chinese. They aren't there because of an EU passport.

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1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I've watched plenty of Hannan over the years, thankyou. He makes up in bluster and bullshit what he always lacks in facts and rigour. 

"No" would have saved you some typing.

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shaun.lawson

I'm sitting here genuinely gobsmacked. The poster on here who, far more than anyone else, has excoriated Scottish nationalism and Catalan nationalism over very many years is... a British nationalist. Absolutely amazing. 

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1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

I'm sitting here genuinely gobsmacked. The poster on here who, far more than anyone else, has excoriated Scottish nationalism and Catalan nationalism over very many years is... a British nationalist. Absolutely amazing. 

I would never smack your gob, Shaun, never.

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52 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

I'm sitting here genuinely gobsmacked. The poster on here who, far more than anyone else, has excoriated Scottish nationalism and Catalan nationalism over very many years is... a British nationalist. Absolutely amazing. 

 

You may be the only living supporter of the Confederate States of America outside the KKK.

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shaun.lawson
5 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

You may be the only living supporter of the Confederate States of America outside the KKK.

 

It's just... one minute, it's:

 

- "Good Labour people of Scotland, rise up against these chancers and shysters! So we can build a future based on social justice for all!"

 

The next, it's:

 

"By the way, I'm not a Labour person, I'm actually a Tory, and I'm going to vote to screw you all over even more by leaving the EU".

 

Amazing. 

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3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It's just... one minute, it's:

 

- "Good Labour people of Scotland, rise up against these chancers and shysters! So we can build a future based on social justice for all!"

 

The next, it's:

 

"By the way, I'm not a Labour person, I'm actually a Tory, and I'm going to vote to screw you all over even more by leaving the EU".

 

Amazing. 

 

No, not amazing. A trend.

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shaun.lawson
7 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

No, not amazing. A trend.

 

A depressing one. :(

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28 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

A depressing one. :(

Aye, like anti-semitism, Venezuelan economics, hatred of Britain and hatred of wealth are going to persuade anybody. They deserve every lost vote and every lost seat.

 

image.thumb.png.ede2cb71a02237254ab3d27dee7b5dc2.png

 

Labour don't offer freedom, only pointless collectivism and bureaucrats who think they know better about how people should live.

 

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shaun.lawson
4 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

They deserve every lost vote and every lost seat.

 

Strange how they gained so many votes and seats last June then, huh?

 

Pg-26-sinking-reu.jpg

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2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

0*b6dAKPzVbzg7z-C1.

 

He is, and you don't care.

 

It's Conservative and Unionist for me.

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shaun.lawson
1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

He is, and you don't care.

 

It's Conservative and Unionist for me.

 

The government you support, which bribed a bunch of terrorist sympathisers so it could remain in office, is. And the moment it did that, any moral high ground it (or you) ever purported to hold disappeared from beneath its feet.

 

Taxpayers' money, to prop up a bunch of bigots. Rule Britannia. 

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1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

The government you support, which bribed a bunch of terrorist sympathisers so it could remain in office, is. And the moment it did that, any moral high ground it (or you) ever purported to hold disappeared from beneath its feet.

 

Taxpayers' money, to prop up a bunch of bigots. Rule Britannia. 

 

  • £400 million to complete the York Street Interchange in Belfast and other infrastructure priorities
  • £150 million to provide ultra-fast broadband
  • Devolution of corporation tax rates
  • The establishment of a set of city deals and enterprise zones
  • £100 million to tackle severe deprivation
  • £100 million in additional health spending
  • £200 million on health service transformation
  • £50 million in additional mental health spending

http://www.thejournal.ie/dup-tory-deal-documents-3464029-Jun2017/

 

No, please state which of these spending items you find objectionable.

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shaun.lawson
1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

  • £400 million to complete the York Street Interchange in Belfast and other infrastructure priorities
  • £150 million to provide ultra-fast broadband
  • Devolution of corporation tax rates
  • The establishment of a set of city deals and enterprise zones
  • £100 million to tackle severe deprivation
  • £100 million in additional health spending
  • £200 million on health service transformation
  • £50 million in additional mental health spending

http://www.thejournal.ie/dup-tory-deal-documents-3464029-Jun2017/

 

No, please state which of these spending items you find objectionable.

 

So... if in a parallel universe in which Sinn Fein took their seats, and Corbyn emulated May and bribed them in order to support the government, you'd be cool with that if the money went on similar projects in Northern Ireland? 

 

The great comedy here is that the "Conservative and Unionist Party" are neither Conservative (they don't conserve, they destroy), nor Unionist (as they've shown by continually playing with fire with the Good Friday Agreement and abandoning the UK government's role as neutral arbiter of that agreement).

 

And that's even before I mention the DUP's incredibly dark role in the Brexit referendum. 

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/dup-dark-money

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19 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

So... if in a parallel universe in which Sinn Fein took their seats, and Corbyn emulated May and bribed them in order to support the government, you'd be cool with that if the money went on similar projects in Northern Ireland? 

 

The great comedy here is that the "Conservative and Unionist Party" are neither Conservative (they don't conserve, they destroy), nor Unionist (as they've shown by continually playing with fire with the Good Friday Agreement and abandoning the UK government's role as neutral arbiter of that agreement).

 

And that's even before I mention the DUP's incredibly dark role in the Brexit referendum. 

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/dup-dark-money

I'd be fine with the money being spent on these projects, yes. Of course, either Sinn Féin being anywhere near the House of Commons or the Labour Party being anywhere near power are prospects earnestly to be dreaded.

 

They're not Conservative enough, no. Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg or Daniel Hannan for PM. Adam Tomkins would also do.

 

A lot of stats for you to get into:

 

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/migrations/en-uk/files/Assets/Docs/Polls/ipsos-mori-northern-ireland-border-poll-2016-tables.pdf

 

Vote to stay in the United Kingdom: 63%

Vote for Northern Ireland to join the Republic of Ireland outside the United Kingdom: 22%

 

Protestants:

 

Vote to stay in the United Kingdom: 88%

Vote for Northern Ireland to join the Republic of Ireland outside the United Kingdom: 5%

 

Catholics:

 

Vote to stay in the United Kingdom: 37%

Vote for Northern Ireland to join the Republic of Ireland outside the United Kingdom: 43%

 

Armagh:

 

Vote to stay in the United Kingdom: 50%

Vote for Northern Ireland to join the Republic of Ireland outside the United Kingdom: 41%

 

The EU referendum result changed my view: 17%

The EU referendum result did not change my view: 83%

 

It won't be like in Scotland, where many people had never given a though to the Union or Scottish independence until about 2012 and Yes support rose. In Northern Ireland, they've had a good think already.

 

Theresa-not-a-Unionist-Let-June-be-the-end-of-May

 
image.thumb.png.4ca5a06198b9b99430f260a42b48c624.png

 

Do you have these tiles in Uruguay?

 

image.thumb.png.d717970057b4060c3f6688657040cd74.png

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11 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Jailing people isn't the way forward, IMO.

 

But it is if they ask to have an affair, according to some people who you wouldn't trust to tie their own shoelaces without setting themselves on fire.  :laugh:

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7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

A depressing one. :(

 

Shaun, you're not a bad lad at heart, but WADR you're a bit short of strategic nous.

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shaun.lawson
9 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

Do you have these tiles in Uruguay?

 

image.thumb.png.d717970057b4060c3f6688657040cd74.png

 

Nope. After 14 years of a leftist government, we have this instead:

 

https://www.economist.com/news/americas/21739793-how-small-country-outperforms-its-neighbours-uruguays-record-setting-economic-growth-streak?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/uruguaysrecordsettingeconomicgrowthstreakthemagicofmontevideo

 

15 years of economic growth. The lowest levels of poverty in Latin America. And the lowest levels of inequality in Latin America. All achieved under the left. 

 

PS. Jacob Rees-Mogg? :rofl: You've lost it. If you ever had it. 

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21 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Except Nicola Sturgeon has been walking a very thin line. She's never outright supported Catalonian independence, only their right to choose. She's condemned the over the top reaction of the Spanish state while pointing out Scotland can't do anything about the legal process or these warrants.

 

All of that is perfectly reasonable and rational. Sure, rank and file members of the Yes movement will be more vocal but so what, that's their right. 

 

What Sturgeon has said is acceptable. What her prominent Party associates have said is another. Like it or not these people represent her and her party. The party needs to be a tad more respectful of the internal affairs of another nation. Afterall they cry foul at the slightest interference in what they deem Scottish affairs.

 

The right to choose is an interesting thing here. The people of Catalonia  have democratic rights. Rights which are governed by Spain's constitution and by the Statute of Catalonia (which governs Catalan governance). This referendum breached both these laws. It was illegal. Rights come with consequences and responsibilities. The Catalan Government blatantly ignored these. My point is where does the right to choose end? 

 

21 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Spain is a deplorable nation, from their colonial history to their recent fascist past. Not to mention an economic joke. 

 

It's stuff like this which needs to be avoided! Is Spain any different from other Colonial powers? It's lack of democracy in the 19th and parts of the 20th century - is that any different from Portugal? From Greece? From most nations in the world for that? And Franco - any different from Salazar (Portugal)? Mussolini? Hitler? The Junta in Greece? Quisling? Gombos (Hungary)? Tiso (Slovakia)? Chilie, Brazil and Romania?

 

Do they make these nations deplorable? 

 

As for economic jokes - let's not throw stones just yet. The UK (Scotland too) has wage stagnation and sclerotic growth.

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23 hours ago, Boris said:

 

But it does highlight the farce that is Spain's constitution.

 

In what sense? It's terms - which people consented to - state the territorial integrity of Spain is to be respected. 

 

23 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Jailing people because they want independence, but will always be unable to get independence due to the catch 22 nature of the Spanish constitution, thereby making a particular political belief illegal.

 

They broke the law. That's why they're going to jail. Not for thought. 

 

There's nothing preventing the independence movement engaging in legitimate means of changing the law. Or challenging the constitution in the European Court of Human Rights as a breach of their democratic rights.

 

Have all reasonable options been extinguished? I don't believe so.

 

23 hours ago, Boris said:

 

If, as per the UN charter, we support the self determination of peoples then one can't help but be sympathetic to these Catalans who face lengthy prison terms, ultimately because of their political beliefs.

 

The UN Charter was limited in this respect by the 1960 declaration by the UN to apply this to colonial struggles. The International Court faced these questions over Katangan and Biafran secessionist struggles. Again - rights have responsibilities. The Catalonian Government did not exercise their rights with responsibility. 

 

23 hours ago, Boris said:

 

The YES movement probably isn't too worried about how it is viewed across the rest of the EU at this point in time, but regards the FM, she is head of a party whose main aim is independence, therefore it is no surprise she has a degree of sympathy with the Catalans, especially one resident in Scotland who will face jail due to her political beliefs.

 

The thing is, as with Brexit, what we do now and how we act will determine how we go forward and are treated by others in the future. Scotland if it becomes independent should act like other European and world nations and where it is within the law they should respect the internal processes of foreign nations.

 

Why is Catalonia any different from other movements to us? Our nationalist movement is comparable to few others. The history, the reasons and the hoped outcomes are hugely different. Should we link arms with the Flems, Corsicans and the Cornish? Ally with nationalists in Puerto Rico? Support the Kurds? Where does this end?

 

It's one thing to be comrades for economic change and for rights. Another to back secessionist movements with little respect for the different histories of others across the globe. The Yes movement is a muddle and a muddle with no real purpose at the moment. This is filler in my view.

 

It's a shame. Because if people came out like they do for Yes for electoral reform or against poverty then there'd be an inspiring momentum towards real societal change rather than constitutional tinkering.

 

23 hours ago, Boris said:

 

IMO - I don't really know the ins and outs of this whole thing, I think the Spanish government have reacted terribly, I think that the Catalans have been a bit slap dash as well.

 

Agreed. Puidgemont totally over played his hand. And much like Rajoy some of it was to bury bad news.

 

The thing is - Spain has an independent judiciary. These people need to face the charges brought against them and clear their names. They have rights of appeal to the ECHR should they feel their rights are infringed.

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23 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Good! The sooner the world sees that the SNP are shysters and chancers, the better.

 

It's a misdirected movement with little leadership or purpose - the Yes Movement that is.

 

Like Momentum has, and as Jim Sillars said they should, the Yes supporters needed to form a collective leadership. Independent of the SNP which could've set out it's stall with key principles and aims.

 

Like the Constitutional Convention or the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly 30 years before.

 

They've not. And unsurprisingly have descended into a farce which parrots a few columnists, buys into conspiracy theories and sheepishly follows the SNP.

 

Daft imo. It could've been the biggest cross party campaign group and pessure group in Scottish history. Imagine a movement with genuine ideas and alternatives? Even if a No vote happened again you'd have an intellectual movement of emgaged people with all parties - yes and no - engaged in a debate on our future.

 

That chance has been lost. Sadly so.

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4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

:unsure2:

 

In what way is it not? 

 

The cases have not gone to trial as yet. But as in all democracies the alleged illegalities have been raised and due process follows that to ascertain guilt or innocence.

 

This isn't a drumhead military court.

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Just now, JamboX2 said:

In what way is it not?

 

I don't want to make an appeal like "all the Spanish, even Spanish nationalists, I've ever talked to say their judiciary, especially their supreme court, is a corrupt joke".

 

Because that's just anecdotal. Maybe google "spain judiciary problems" or something instead? I was just honestly shocked anyone making that lengthy of a post on the subject would also make such an unabashed assertion.

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21 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

It's a misdirected movement with little leadership or purpose - the Yes Movement that is.

 

Like Momentum has, and as Jim Sillars said they should, the Yes supporters needed to form a collective leadership. Independent of the SNP which could've set out it's stall with key principles and aims.

 

Like the Constitutional Convention or the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly 30 years before.

 

They've not. And unsurprisingly have descended into a farce which parrots a few columnists, buys into conspiracy theories and sheepishly follows the SNP.

 

Daft imo. It could've been the biggest cross party campaign group and pessure group in Scottish history. Imagine a movement with genuine ideas and alternatives? Even if a No vote happened again you'd have an intellectual movement of emgaged people with all parties - yes and no - engaged in a debate on our future.

 

That chance has been lost. Sadly so.

 

Na, it's populated by post-modern semi-hippies who are incapable of thinking in straight lines. I'm glad they've ****ed up.

 

We've had enough festivals of democracy in Scotland for this century. ******s in cafés repeating what they've read by Wee Ginger Dug and calling themselves intellectuals.

 

The same standard of thought that leads to Momentum, the anti-war movement and anti-semitism.

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13 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Na, it's populated by post-modern semi-hippies who are incapable of thinking in straight lines. I'm glad they've ****ed up.

 

We've had enough festivals of democracy in Scotland for this century. ******s in cafés repeating what they've read by Wee Ginger Dug and calling themselves intellectuals.

 

The same standard of thought that leads to Momentum, the anti-war movement and anti-semitism.

Your pain, when Scotland becomes a nation again, is going to feck up your brain.

 

:yas:

 

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shaun.lawson
13 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

In what way is it not? 

 

The cases have not gone to trial as yet. But as in all democracies the alleged illegalities have been raised and due process follows that to ascertain guilt or innocence.

 

This isn't a drumhead military court.

 

The so-called "independent judiciary" of Spain is a huge part of Spain's problem. It is the guarantor of Spain's great constitutional stitch-up. No room for compromise, common sense or simple Realpolitik where it's concerned. 

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shaun.lawson
13 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

******s in cafés repeating what they've read by Wee Ginger Dug and calling themselves intellectuals.

 

Lampoons others for calling themselves intellectuals.

 

Wants Jacob Rees-Mogg as PM :rofl::rofl::rofl: 

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14 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Lampoons others for calling themselves intellectuals.

 

Wants Jacob Rees-Mogg as PM :rofl::rofl::rofl: 

I don't understand how any working class person can have the slightest thing in common with JRM. If GW thinks this guy gives a damn about anything in his life, he's delusional.

 

Baffling.

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11 hours ago, ri Alban said:

If GW thinks this guy gives a damn about anything in his life, he's delusional.

 

And if he doesn't? :whistling:

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On a linked but not exactly on-topic matter - what's JKB's opinion on the use of the words "Catalonian" and "Catalan" in English?  When should and shouldn't either word be used?

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28 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

On a linked but not exactly on-topic matter - what's JKB's opinion on the use of the words "Catalonian" and "Catalan" in English?  When should and shouldn't either word be used?

Catalonian is an inelegant word but I don't think Catalan on its own indicates a Catalan person. "a Catalan" makes one think "a Catalan what?" Catalonian is serving the same function as Turk, Swede, Dane, Scot, Irishman, etc.

 

Chinaman has been mostly replaced by Chinese as the noun and I'd like if Catalan replaced Catalonian as the noun.

 

Catalan for everything else.

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12 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

The so-called "independent judiciary" of Spain is a huge part of Spain's problem. It is the guarantor of Spain's great constitutional stitch-up. No room for compromise, common sense or simple Realpolitik where it's concerned. 

 

Is part of this issue not that in Spain - as with other former Bonapartist nstions - that judges lead the investigations? Appoint investigators and police detectives to run an enquiry? Which is were corruption can stem from.

 

Rather than here where the police investigate a crime and refer it to the PF?

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3 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

Catalonian is an inelegant word but I don't think Catalan on its own indicates a Catalan person. "a Catalan" makes one think "a Catalan what?" Catalonian is serving the same function as Turk, Swede, Dane, Scot, Irishman, etc.

 

Chinaman has been mostly replaced by Chinese as the noun and I'd like if Catalan replaced Catalonian as the noun.

 

Catalan for everything else.

 

I'm thinking of the adjective, e.g. "Catalan government" v. "Catalonian government", or "Catalan workers" v. "Catalonian workers".  In that context, "Catalonian" does look inelegant.

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shaun.lawson
4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

On a linked but not exactly on-topic matter - what's JKB's opinion on the use of the words "Catalonian" and "Catalan" in English?  When should and shouldn't either word be used?

 

Catalan, not Catalonian.

 

Argentinian, not Argentine.

 

And Catalunya, not Catalonia. :) 

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27 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Catalan, not Catalonian.

 

Argentinian, not Argentine.

 

And Catalunya, not Catalonia. :) 

Don't be an arse, Lawson.

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shaun.lawson
3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Don't be an arse, Lawson.

 

I've been referring to it as Catalunya for years. It's the respectful thing to do.

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3 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I've been referring to it as Catalunya for years. It's the respectful thing to do.

 

Nonetheless, "Catalunya" is not an English word. 

 

21 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

The so-called "independent judiciary" of Spain is a huge part of Spain's problem. It is the guarantor of Spain's great constitutional stitch-up.

 

 

You didn't post to say:

 

The so-called "independent judiciary" of España is a huge part of España's problem. It is the guarantor of España's great constitutional stitch-up.

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shaun.lawson
1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

Nonetheless, "Catalunya" is not an English word. 

 

 

 

You didn't post to say:

 

The so-called "independent judiciary" of España is a huge part of España's problem. It is the guarantor of España's great constitutional stitch-up.

 

Naturally, because I have no respect for Spain's government or its so-called independent judiciary. :sorcerer: 

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1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Naturally, because I have no respect for Spain's government or its so-called independent judiciary. :sorcerer: 

 

In that case you are engaging in name calling for its own sake.  That's a bit cheap.

 

On the other hand, if I search through your posts is there a risk I'll find perfectly respectful references by you to other places, but using their English names?  In that case you'd look like an attention-seeking eejit.  But look on the bright side - only a half-baked fool would trawl through old posts of yours for point-scoring purposes, isn't that so?  ;)

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I claim no expertise in this, but in 2006 there was some kind of reform to Catalonia's Statute of Autonomy which was transacted correctly within the constitutional provisions of Spain's "Statute of Autonomy" regime.  The reform was approved by the Spanish and Catalan parliaments, and approved by the Catalan voters in a legal referendum.  However the PP, then in opposition, opposed the outcome saying that it was at odds with the constitution even though the two parliaments and the voters had approved it.  This view was upheld by Spain's constitutional court in 2010, and the provisions of the Statute of Autonomy were severely watered down.

 

How did that happen?

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shaun.lawson
38 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

In that case you are engaging in name calling for its own sake.  That's a bit cheap.

 

On the other hand, if I search through your posts is there a risk I'll find perfectly respectful references by you to other places, but using their English names?  In that case you'd look like an attention-seeking eejit.  But look on the bright side - only a half-baked fool would trawl through old posts of yours for point-scoring purposes, isn't that so?  ;)

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: 

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On ‎29‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 12:34, Boris said:

 

And there's the catch 22 of the thing!  If asked now, would 95% of Catalans vote for that particular part of the constitution?

 

Jailing people isn't the way forward, IMO.

He always gives it the old 95% voted for it. Ask him what Spain offered Catalans for their approval, whom were immediately betrayed afterwards. Don't hold your breath.

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