Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[The Mighty Thor]

Queues up to 20 miles at Dover now. 

 

Its only 18th December. 

 

This is going well. 

[John Frum]

I don't see much about the fishermen or fishing communities surprisingly enough.

 

http://www.marinet.org.uk/who-owns-the-uk-fishing-industry-and-its-fishing-quotas.html

 

The investigation found:
UK-wide:

• Over a quarter (29%) of the UK’s fishing quota is owned or controlled by just five families on the Sunday Times Rich List.
• This group also has minority investments in companies and fishing vessel partnerships that hold a further 8% of the country’s fishing quota. This means companies holding over a third (37%) of the UK’s fishing quota are wholly or partly owned by this tiny handful of wealthy families.
• Over half (13) of the UK’s 25 largest quota-holders are linked to one of the biggest criminal over-fishing scams ever to reach the British courts. These 13 businesses have shareholders, directors, or vessel partners who were convicted (in cases heard between 2011–2012) following the “Operation Trawler” police investigation into industrial-scale landings of illegally over-quota fish (or “black fish”) in Scotland.
• Those with the biggest hoards of quota can make millions leasing their fishing quota without casting a net. One company — which holds over half (55%) of Northern Ireland’s quota — recently disposed of its boat and earned £7m in a year from its quota while waiting for a new one. (See Northern Ireland section below).

Edited December 18, 2020 by John Frum
Couldn't get link to work

[The Real Maroonblood]

35 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Queues up to 20 miles at Dover now. 

 

Its only 18th December. 

 

This is going well. 

[Cade]

Whole new industry to spring up supplying queueing truckers with places to sleep and shit and shower and eat.

Kit out a double decker bus like Cliff Richard did in Summer Holiday and have yersel a wee travelling hotel on wheels that can move with the trucks.

 

 

[Lone Striker]

2 hours ago, John Frum said:

I don't see much about the fishermen or fishing communities surprisingly enough.

 

http://www.marinet.org.uk/who-owns-the-uk-fishing-industry-and-its-fishing-quotas.html

 

The investigation found:
UK-wide:

• Over a quarter (29%) of the UK’s fishing quota is owned or controlled by just five families on the Sunday Times Rich List.
• This group also has minority investments in companies and fishing vessel partnerships that hold a further 8% of the country’s fishing quota. This means companies holding over a third (37%) of the UK’s fishing quota are wholly or partly owned by this tiny handful of wealthy families.
• Over half (13) of the UK’s 25 largest quota-holders are linked to one of the biggest criminal over-fishing scams ever to reach the British courts. These 13 businesses have shareholders, directors, or vessel partners who were convicted (in cases heard between 2011–2012) following the “Operation Trawler” police investigation into industrial-scale landings of illegally over-quota fish (or “black fish”) in Scotland.
• Those with the biggest hoards of quota can make millions leasing their fishing quota without casting a net. One company — which holds over half (55%) of Northern Ireland’s quota — recently disposed of its boat and earned £7m in a year from its quota while waiting for a new one. (See Northern Ireland section below).

Good find.   

 

The rights and wrongs of who  gets to fish in UK waters is muddied by  foreign ownership of UK fish quotas.   This article tries to explain things -  the EU  allow annual quota licences  to be bought & sold across  member states, which has resulted in the current  mish-mash of vessels who are legally allowed to catch fish in UK waters.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116

[Ulysses]

7 hours ago, OBE said:

Shouldn't have been any Brexit negotiations. Any other club in the world (big or small) that has a half arsed constitution would've stipulated in the terms & conditions (prior to club launch) what legally, would be expected of both sides if a member decided to leave...all parties are guilty of this incredibly damaging oversight.

 

  

 

This, and I cannot stress this enough, is wrong.

 

The EU's constitution is perfectly clear.  Member states can leave, and there is a clear procedure for doing so.  There is no legal expectation on anyone who leaves, and no legal obligation on the EU's part towards anyone who leaves.  If you leave, you've left, and you become a third-party country.  Because there are loads and loads of third-party countries, EU members know precisely how they are treated by and relate to the EU.  Britain was an EU member, therefore it knew the rules.  There is an existing framework for trade between countries that are not in a trade association or do not have a trade agreement, as long as they are members of the WTO.  The UK is a member of the WTO, as are the EU member states.

 

The notion that it was not clear what might happen is simply untrue.  There is no oversight.  The rules have produced exactly the result they were designed to produce.

 

Here's a question for the political scientists and constitutional lawyers amongst the readers of this thread.  What does the Constitution of the United States of America say about the rights of states to secede from the United States, and about what their post-secession relationship with the United States would be?

[Cade]

One thing that the UK dropped as a key demand was the "re-nationalising" of the UK fleet, as most of the fleet that operates out of UK waters is owned by EU companies.
UK wanted a system by which the government could tender licenses much like the railways and simply refuse to allow foreign companies to tender for them.

This demand has been dropped.
 

So, UK registered vessels fish under a UK flag, catch fish in UK waters then export it to EU markets.

And EU registered vessels also fish in UK waters and export it to UK markets.

Everybody fishes in each other's waters and sells fish to each other, with ownership of fleets and international quotas being sold on the open market.

 

It's messy but it's worked for years with only minor griping of the fishing communities. 

 

It was the UK government that allowed their small fleets to become destroyed by giant supertrawlers and a small handful of companies dominating the industry.

It was the UK fishermen that chose to sell their quotas.

It's all been our own fault all this time but all of a sudden it's the EU's fault?

Edited December 18, 2020 by Cade

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Smithee said:

Nah, it's meant to be conversation not confrontation. Nowt wrong with what you said, I get plenty wrong

 

Oh **** it, just get stuck in.  Everyone else does. 

[CJGJ]

Remember the days of the 'oven ready deal' promised by Boris in 2019

 

The oven has clearly broken down and the back up microwave has gone also

 

Can the repair engineer arrive in time for Xmas ?

[ri Alban]

3 hours ago, CJGJ said:

Remember the days of the 'oven ready deal' promised by Boris in 2019

 

The oven has clearly broken down and the back up microwave has gone also

 

Can the repair engineer arrive in time for Xmas ?

Microwave meals or whatever Nigella   Lawson calls it. Are rotten. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by ri Alban

[RobboM]

6 hours ago, CJGJ said:

Remember the days of the 'oven ready deal' promised by Boris in 2019

 

The oven has clearly broken down and the back up microwave has gone also

 

Can the repair engineer arrive in time for Xmas ?

The repair engineer is German
The parts are coming from France, Italy and Ireland

They are being driven by a Croatian

It all used to work quite well after a fashion but now the repair is solely in the hands of Boris Johnson ....

[Mikey1874]

Busy elsewhere today.

 

Just catching up. I see No Deal Brexit has started early.

 

Cobra meeting tomorrow. 

[Justin Z]

On 18/12/2020 at 21:48, Ulysses said:

Here's a question for the political scientists and constitutional lawyers amongst the readers of this thread.  What does the Constitution of the United States of America say about the rights of states to secede from the United States, and about what their post-secession relationship with the United States would be?

 

The Constitution doesn't contemplate secession at all. The Supreme Court have consistently stated the union of the states is permanent with the only possible exception being if all the states agree to allow a secession, perhaps by a majority, or 2/3, or 3/4.

[CJGJ]

The old pride thing causing all sorts of problems

 

Fishing is a minor thing in the bigger scheme but this nonsense about 'sovereignty' insisted upon by the UK is simply all about show...they have given up sovereignty (or rights) on many other points as have the EU but having made public pronouncements about rights etc have felt obliged to make a stand and frankly it's a joke

 

Fishing is a con run by millionaires on the whole and the industry should be told like it or lump it...this is not an industry or issue on which a deal should break down

[Justin Z]

On 18/12/2020 at 18:41, The Mighty Thor said:

Queues up to 20 miles at Dover now. 

 

Its only 18th December. 

 

This is going well. 

 

 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

The Constitution doesn't contemplate secession at all. The Supreme Court have consistently stated the union of the states is permanent with the only possible exception being if all the states agree to allow a secession, perhaps by a majority, or 2/3, or 3/4.

 

I know. 

 

The EU, on the other hand, isn't.  Unlike the false narrative promoted by the hyper-nationalists, the EU is a union of sovereign nations.  It even takes great pains to say so and to give effect to that once it's been said.  That's why member states can leave.  And the EU's rules make the process of leaving blindingly simple.  Leave means leave.  The Brexiteers could learn a lot from that motto, I think.

[Ulysses]

In all the kerfuffle over this uber-Covid strain, has anyone noticed that each of the EU's member states has individually introduced restrictions of one kind or another on travel to and from the UK?  A lot of the policies are similar, but they've all been set separately and independently.  It's almost as if (a) countries want to set their own entry policies as sovereign nations free from the yoke of Brussels, and (b) that's exactly what they can do. 

 

Who knew, eh?

[The Mighty Thor]

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

In all the kerfuffle over this uber-Covid strain, has anyone noticed that each of the EU's member states has individually introduced restrictions of one kind or another on travel to and from the UK?  A lot of the policies are similar, but they've all been set separately and independently.  It's almost as if (a) countries want to set their own entry policies as sovereign nations free from the yoke of Brussels, and (b) that's exactly what they can do. 

 

Who knew, eh?

And in an act of shitehousery against the Daily Mail/Daily Express the 'dirty' French have 'slammed' shut the calais ports in a 'spiteful' act to 'destroy' the UK economy. 

 

Somebody posted on covid thread we'd be foraging for weeds by mid January. Wise words.   

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

5 hours ago, Ulysses said:

In all the kerfuffle over this uber-Covid strain, has anyone noticed that each of the EU's member states has individually introduced restrictions of one kind or another on travel to and from the UK?  A lot of the policies are similar, but they've all been set separately and independently.  It's almost as if (a) countries want to set their own entry policies as sovereign nations free from the yoke of Brussels, and (b) that's exactly what they can do. 

 

Who knew, eh?

Not the deluded, racist, ****wits who voted for brexit, certainly.

[Justin Z]

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

I know. 

 

I thought as much. I was happy to spell it out for the sake of discussion.

[Cade]

[Unknown user]

7 hours ago, Ulysses said:

In all the kerfuffle over this uber-Covid strain, has anyone noticed that each of the EU's member states has individually introduced restrictions of one kind or another on travel to and from the UK?  A lot of the policies are similar, but they've all been set separately and independently.  It's almost as if (a) countries want to set their own entry policies as sovereign nations free from the yoke of Brussels, and (b) that's exactly what they can do. 

 

Who knew, eh?

Good luck with that, I got fed up of pointing out that Britain could remove unemployed EU nationals if they weren't working within 3 months but chose not to and pretended it was an open border issue, forced on them by the EU 

[Justin Z]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

Good luck with that, I got fed up of pointing out that Britain could remove unemployed EU nationals if they weren't working within 3 months but chose not to and pretended it was an open border issue, forced on them by the EU 

 

The narrative that pro-Indy, pro-Remain folk are silly and irrational for wanting to “take back control” from the UK and “hand it right back over” to Brussels, must be protected at any cost. Even though they aren't even the slightest bit comparable issues of sovereignty, and even as outright falsehoods like this are necessary to keep the story going.

[Cade]

Stena is re-routing one freight ferry line from Belfast to a Rosslare/Cherbourg direct route. between ROI and France.

UK bypass under construction.

 

[pablo]

7 minutes ago, Cade said:

Stena is re-routing one freight ferry line from Belfast to a Rosslare/Cherbourg direct route. between ROI and France.

UK bypass under construction.

 

 

Might need more than one ferry on a route that will take days, to make up for the volume of freight going over the English Channel and North Sea.

[coconut doug]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Stena is re-routing one freight ferry line from Belfast to a Rosslare/Cherbourg direct route. between ROI and France.

UK bypass under construction.

 

 

Surely the UK can reroute all trade through Ireland as there is no land border between NI and Ireland or border down the Irish sea. 

[Cade]

There is a border down the Irish Sea.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

40 minutes ago, Cade said:

There is a border down the Irish Sea.

 

Give it 5 minutes and our expert on the Good Friday Agreement will be along to tell us there's not. 

 

Project Fear etc etc. 

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

There is a border down the Irish Sea.

 

 

Does this mean somebody driving a lorry from Ni can get access to France through Irish ports?

[Cade]

There's EU customs officials in NI who will be checking anything going to the Republic of Ireland and onwards into the EU mainland.

[The Mighty Thor]

Grant Shapps on the 5pm presser said there was only 174 lorries stuck on the M20. 

 

Kent highways agency actual number?????

 

945.

 

And rising. To the extent they've had to shut the motorway until 8am tomorrow. 

 

More Brexit bullshit from the lying party. 

 

 

[Don Dan]

Brexit will be chaotic. I think there will be mass demonstrations edging on a revolution when the brown stuff hit the fan.

[RobboM]

9 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Grant Shapps on the 5pm presser said there was only 174 lorries stuck on the M20. 

 

Kent highways agency actual number?????

 

945.

 

And rising. To the extent they've had to shut the motorway until 8am tomorrow. 

 

More Brexit bullshit from the lying party. 

 

 

Only 174 are stuck
The remaining 771 are immobile, not moving, travelling at <1 mph, stationary, at rest, experiencing inertia, parked or static. 😂
 

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Only 174 are stuck
The remaining 771 are immobile, not moving, travelling at <1 mph, stationary, at rest, experiencing inertia, parked or static. 😂
 

 

You laugh, but I think that's actually right. They've reduced the number of trucks on the road down to around that number and put the rest of them into a holding park.

[The Mighty Thor]

23 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Brexit will be chaotic. I think there will be mass demonstrations edging on a revolution when the brown stuff hit the fan.

The cynic might say that's why they've papped the whole South East into a tier 4 lockdown. 

Keep protesters off the streets of London and Kent.

[A Boy Named Crow]

14 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The cynic might say that's why they've papped the whole South East into a tier 4 lockdown. 

Keep protesters off the streets of London and Kent.

Says it all about the current government that this isn't a laughable conspiracy theory...

 

They are the way they are because they believe there is zero threat of revolution, they know a largely compliant media will keep the dumbed down public in their place. 

 

Given the current brexit / covid debacles, the old MI5 maxim, that Britain is always just four missed meals away from anarchy,  springs to mind though!

[Cade]

Seems that The Mighty British Empire 2.0 is backing down on fishing rights.

 

Instead of demanding 60% by value of all fish in UK waters, we're now accepting 35%.

And a 5-year transition period to that figure.
And a tariff mechanism by which either side that is unhappy with quotas can apply tariffs to balance out losses.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Cade

[Malinga the Swinga]

29 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The cynic might say that's why they've papped the whole South East into a tier 4 lockdown. 

Keep protesters off the streets of London and Kent.

Trouble is if you believe that, why have we done the same in Scotland?

[indianajones]

56 minutes ago, Cade said:

Seems that The Mighty British Empire 2.0 is backing down on fishing rights.

 

Instead of demanding 60% by value of all fish in UK waters, we're now accepting 35%.

And a 5-year transition period to that figure.
And a tariff mechanism by which either side that is unhappy with quotas can apply tariffs to balance out losses.

 

 

 

The North East will be raging. 

 

Tory failures. 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Seems that The Mighty British Empire 2.0 is backing down on fishing rights.

 

Instead of demanding 60% by value of all fish in UK waters, we're now accepting 35%.

And a 5-year transition period to that figure.
And a tariff mechanism by which either side that is unhappy with quotas can apply tariffs to balance out losses.

 

 

Where are you seeing this ?   Quite a backtrack, if true - although the 5-year transition was a blindingly obvious compromise.

[pablo]

13 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Where are you seeing this ?   Quite a backtrack, if true - although the 5-year transition was a blindingly obvious compromise.

 

It's the reduction to the EU's catch within British waters. Sources on the EU side are saying the UK position is now a 35% reduction over a 5 year period. The EU's position had been 25% with a 6 year transition. The UK is denying they've made a new offer. It's probably the only decent bit of leverage the UK has, so they'll be using it in the wider deal negotiations. 

[Cade]

"Do you want the City of London to continue having banking licences in EU nations?"
"Yes please"
"Give us some fishing rights"
"OK"

 

That is how it will go.

That is how it is going.

That is how it was always going to go.

[WorldChampions1902]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Grant Shapps on the 5pm presser said there was only 174 lorries stuck on the M20. 

 

Kent highways agency actual number?????

 

945.

 

And rising. To the extent they've had to shut the motorway until 8am tomorrow. 

 

More Brexit bullshit from the lying party. 

 

 

Kent locals also complaining about the volume of urine-filled plastic bottles and sh*t-filled KFC boxes being launched out of lorry cabs. Brexit in a nutshell. A certain Christmas song springs to mind.

 

It's beginning to look a lot like Brexit
Everywhere you go
Take a look at the Port in Kent, it's bristling once again
Where Stena Line and lorry lanes don’t flow

 

It's beginning to look a lot like Brexit
Noise on every road
But the prettiest sight to see is the jobby and the pee
Outside your own front door

 

Suck it up Kent! It’s what you voted for.

 

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Kent locals also complaining about the volume of urine-filled plastic bottles and sh*t-filled KFC boxes being launched out of lorry cabs. Brexit in a nutshell. A certain Christmas song springs to mind.

 

It's beginning to look a lot like Brexit
Everywhere you go
Take a look at the Port in Kent, it's bristling once again
Where Stena Line and lorry lanes don’t flow

 

It's beginning to look a lot like Brexit
Noise on every road
But the prettiest sight to see is the jobby and the pee
Outside your own front door

 

Suck it up Kent! It’s what you voted for.

 

Suck it up Kent? They're only people, bud. It's Christmas, a wee bit compassion, this is Boris and Co who did this, not them. 

Coronavirus is one thing, but no deal brexit or shite deal brexit is all on them. 

[The Mighty Thor]

9 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Trouble is if you believe that, why have we done the same in Scotland?

Its the playbook of the last 9 months. What they do, we do. With bells on. 

[Costanza]

10 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The cynic might say that's why they've papped the whole South East into a tier 4 lockdown. 

Keep protesters off the streets of London and Kent.

A cynic may find this more than a coincidence as well....

 

https://netpol.org/2020/11/26/government-plans-major-crackdown-in-2021-on-the-right-to-protest/

[The Mighty Thor]

5 minutes ago, Costanza said:

A cynic may find this more than a coincidence as well....

 

https://netpol.org/2020/11/26/government-plans-major-crackdown-in-2021-on-the-right-to-protest/

To be fair, with the lack of fresh fruit and veg we'll all be too malnourished to protest. 

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

To be fair, with the lack of fresh fruit and veg we'll all be too malnourished to protest. 

Protests, about what?

Brexit is done, that's what they wanted. Now it's time we found out what is going to happen. The UK had a great deal being part of the EU with all sorts of vetoes and get outs. Now, at BEST, the sovereignty they said they didn't have, they won't have, with a totally shite, last minute deal. With no say at all. 

 

Scotland, post independence, need to walk away completely and allow the UN to deal with WM on our behalf. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by ri Alban

[WorldChampions1902]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Suck it up Kent? They're only people, bud. It's Christmas, a wee bit compassion, this is Boris and Co who did this, not them. 

Coronavirus is one thing, but no deal brexit or shite deal brexit is all on them.  

Nearly 60% of Kent voted Leave. It was the actions of those people and the other Leave voters that ultimately put us where we are now, not “The Boris Circus Show of Horrors”. So, Christmas Greetings and commiserations to the 40% of Kent who voted Remain. To the other 60%, I underline my message of, “Suck it up”.

[Unknown user]

Am I alone in thinking there's a power play message here from France? Look at the chaos we can cause if there's no deal and you piss us off.

 

Macron has an EU veto (remember those days?) and control over the majority of stuff getting to our island nation. We don't hold any cards compared to that.

Well, we maybe have a couple of jokers.