Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Cade]

YAY!

FA is back with his "nothing in the GFA says anything about a border" pish.

 

That'd be why the UK's only option to prevent a border down the Irish Sea was to breach international law (meaning the GFA).

And why the USA (as guarantor of the GFA) leaned on Boris that we'd be getting no deal with them if we breached it.

Which is why the UK backed down.

Which is why the border is now running down the Irish sea.

Because the GFA makes a border on the island of Ireland illegal.

 

How many times have I had to explain this

 

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

YAY!

FA is back with his "nothing in the GFA says anything about a border" pish.

 

That'd be why the UK's only option to prevent a border down the Irish Sea was to breach international law (meaning the GFA).

And why the USA (as guarantor of the GFA) leaned on Boris that we'd be getting no deal with them if we breached it.

Which is why the UK backed down.

Which is why the border is now running down the Irish sea.

Because the GFA makes a border on the island of Ireland illegal.

 

How many times have I had to explain this

 

Indtead of explaining it indirectly why not just refer me to the relevant provisions of the GFA which make a border between NI and the ROI illegal?

I assume you have read it.

The border issue has nothing to do with the actual terms of the GFA. It is about the threat that gunmen and terrorists would resume their activities if there was so much as a number plate recognition camera on the border.

[Mikey1874]

18 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Yip. Brexit voters shafted again whilst the toly enablers get even more wealthier. 
You were warned!

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/brexit-supporting-ineos-boss-scraps-uk-factory-plans-build-france/?fbclid=IwAR0Buy0rGoK7FIWs1dR9YYHOQJpixn6cmlKcPAnh7LZ3jGICRQy8xvbmo6c

 

To employ all the French fishermen 

[Pans Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

To employ all the French fishermen 

😂👍

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

😲   Begs the question - why are so many women seemingly happy to be impregnated by that ?

They're prostitutes?

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

Just looked at the GFA (Belfast Agreement) - you are correct, no actual mention of it as an  agreed requirement. 

 

However there are sections which express  aspirations to keep checks/security/impediments  to a minimum.   Over time, the border has disappeared as a physical entity, with just road signs to tell you it's there.    

 

 It seems that  it was the Irish government who twigged immediately after the referendum that the current open nature of the border could be in jeopardy - and the EU took up the fight on behalf of Ireland, since it represented a new land border for the single market while  the Irish government wanted it to remain as it was (in the context of the island).   Probably fair to say the EU has played a blinder on this one !!

 

 

Thank you for taking the trouble to read the Belfast Agreement and not just dismiss my point as the usual "shit".  Your analysis OF the EU and ROI tactics are I think spot on. 

Whether exploiting the terrorist threat is admirable is another matter.

[Mikey1874]

Loads going on

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Aside for applying for 'settled status' the key thing people in Britain from EU will have to do is prove they were here in December 2020. 

[Captain Sausage]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

How dare they have different opinions from you.

What parts of Brexit do you think have been managed well?

[maroonlegions]

 

The joker that is Boris, he can't see past his constant contradictions. 

[Toxteth O'Grady]

4 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

 

The joker that is Boris, he can't see past his constant contradictions. 

Why is Phil Mitchell watching them?

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Captain Sausage said:

What parts of Brexit do you think have been managed well?

By whom?

[RobboM]

 

Well dinner went well ......

[Lone Striker]

Sounds like the romantic dinner in Brussels tonight didn't go "mightily" well.    Likely end of the road is now Sunday. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, RobboM said:

 

Well dinner went well ......

Johnson's probably pished.

[Smoked-Glass]

Brexit might not be as bad as we all think.. Could be opportunities. 

And not having to pay the EU a fortune every day is not on its own a bad thing. 

 

Other things may temporarily suffer but it will be up to us and our government to fix them. 

 

[RobboM]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Sounds like the romantic dinner in Brussels tonight didn't go "mightily" well.    Likely end of the road is now Sunday. 

Throughout this interminable shit show I would love to see a summary of every time in the process where one side or another has set a deadline. I guess it's more than the number of times FA has pontificated on the GFA 😋

[Lone Striker]

3 minutes ago, RobboM said:

 

Well dinner went well ......

 

"not clear if they can be bridged"   ?????   Surely after  4 years,   it's abundantly clear they can't be !!!

 

[Toxteth O'Grady]

2 minutes ago, Smoked-Glass said:

Brexit might not be as bad as we all think.. Could be opportunities. 

And not having to pay the EU a fortune every day is not on its own a bad thing. 

 

Other things may temporarily suffer but it will be up to us and our government to fix them. 

 

Nah - the EU is like marriage. If you don’t go into it you will be ok. If you do go into and decide you want out it will cost you big style.

[Lone Striker]

4 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Throughout this interminable shit show I would love to see a summary of every time in the process where one side or another has set a deadline. I guess it's more than the number of times FA has pontificated on the GFA 😋

 Up till now, neither side wanted to be seen as the one who blew the final whistle and walked off with the ball, so deadlines kept getting changed.     Sounds like thats about to change though, if Boris and Ursula haven't been able to agree a way forward.

 

The EU narrative seems to now be emphasising the need to "protect the single market" - which suggests they don't trust the UK not to try to sell sub-standard food or goods into the EU.     Given that our animal welfare and food standards are at least as high as the EU's,  that sounds quite insulting.      Obviously smuggling and organised crime is a danger to everyone, but are they really suggesting that smugglers & criminals only exist in the UK ?

[Cade]

Oven ready deal needs another 3 days in the oven.

 

Still only half baked.

[Francis Albert]

In fact the introduction of a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would be a breach of the Belfast Agreement which clearly states that the status of NI can only be changed by a vote of the people of NI.

[Ulysses]

6 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Do other trade agreements the EU has have similar provisions the EU is demanding of the UK?

 

The unfortunate answer is yes, no, and it depends.  Some have the same terms.  Some have more stringent provisions, others have less.  It really depends on the level of access involved, and the quid pro quo provisions being sought by the trading partners.  Usually, trade agreements start from a position of limited access and see how far the sides can go in reaching concessions.  In this case, the UK already had access to EU markets on terms that literally could not be made more favourable, and vice versa.  So the negotiations are highly unusual. 

[RobboM]

8 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

 Up till now, neither side wanted to be seen as the one who blew the final whistle and walked off with the ball, so deadlines kept getting changed.     Sounds like thats about to change though, if Boris and Ursula haven't been able to agree a way forward.

 

The EU narrative seems to now be emphasising the need to "protect the single market" - which suggests they don't trust the UK not to try to sell sub-standard food or goods into the EU.     Given that our animal welfare and food standards are at least as high as the EU's,  that sounds quite insulting.      Obviously smuggling and organised crime is a danger to everyone, but are they really suggesting that smugglers & criminals only exist in the UK ?

The EU published their negotiation position a while ago.

 

"ensure a balance of rights and obligations, and a level playing field that will stand the test of time. This balance must ensure the autonomy of the Union’s decision-making and legal order, ensure the protection of the Union’s financial interests and be consistent with the other Union principles set out in the relevant European Council guidelines, in particular with respect to the integrity of the Single Market and the Customs Union and the indivisibility of the four freedoms;"

UK voted to leave the SIngle Market and the EU isn't keen to dismantle it just to suit UK.
Brexiters promised you they would.
Remainers warned they almost certainly wouldn't.

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

The thick Brits eh?

 

If you say so, though I don't see the need.  It's not that people are thick, it's just that they haven't a lot of use for the information.  England is a big country and a big economy.  Most of the population haven't been to Scotland, let alone NI, and it's no wonder that it makes very little impression on them.  Scots are more likely to be aware of NI and have some "use for the information" because of the, erm, unique sporting culture to be found there.  Allied to that is the fact that Brexit is first and foremost an exercise in English nationalism. Other political stuff gets to go along for the spin, but without that English nationalist core the venture wouldn't have gotten very far.

[Lone Striker]

2 minutes ago, RobboM said:

The EU published their negotiation position a while ago.

 

"ensure a balance of rights and obligations, and a level playing field that will stand the test of time. This balance must ensure the autonomy of the Union’s decision-making and legal order, ensure the protection of the Union’s financial interests and be consistent with the other Union principles set out in the relevant European Council guidelines, in particular with respect to the integrity of the Single Market and the Customs Union and the indivisibility of the four freedoms;"

UK voted to leave the SIngle Market and the EU isn't keen to dismantle it just to suit UK.
Brexiters promised you they would.
Remainers warned they almost certainly wouldn't.

OK - but the UK is about to become a "proper " 3rd country,   just like Canada and Japan were before they got an agreement to access limited parts of the single market on a low tariff or zero tariff basis.       I'm not clear how the UK's attempt to leave with a trade deal without first becoming a "proper" 3rd country dismantles anything about the single market.  

[Francis Albert]

21 minutes ago, RobboM said:

The EU published their negotiation position a while ago.

 

"ensure a balance of rights and obligations, and a level playing field that will stand the test of time. This balance must ensure the autonomy of the Union’s decision-making and legal order, ensure the protection of the Union’s financial interests and be consistent with the other Union principles set out in the relevant European Council guidelines, in particular with respect to the integrity of the Single Market and the Customs Union and the indivisibility of the four freedoms;"

UK voted to leave the SIngle Market and the EU isn't keen to dismantle it just to suit UK.
Brexiters promised you they would.
Remainers warned they almost certainly wouldn't.

How is the UK attempting to dismantle the single market?

[Ulysses]

6 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Not sure about that statement being correct.  From my (limited) understanding, the border remaining open and unhindered by customs checks was a cornerstone of it.          

 

I've read some comments to the effect that creating a hard border on the island of Ireland is illegal or unlawful.  I don't think that's the case at all.  However, what you've said there in bold is the heart of the problem.  The GFA depends on an invisible border, and that has been endorsed by the EU, the British Government, the Irish Government and the United States House of Representatives.  The UK could have told the Irish and the EU to **** off on this issue, and despite throwing some shapes to that effect they haven't.  If all parties to a negotiation agree something, then it stands agreed and it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

[Francis Albert]

18 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

If you say so, though I don't see the need.  It's not that people are thick, it's just that they haven't a lot of use for the information.  England is a big country and a big economy.  Most of the population haven't been to Scotland, let alone NI, and it's no wonder that it makes very little impression on them.  Scots are more likely to be aware of NI and have some "use for the information" because of the, erm, unique sporting culture to be found there.  Allied to that is the fact that Brexit is first and foremost an exercise in English nationalism. Other political stuff gets to go along for the spin, but without that English nationalist core the venture wouldn't have gotten very far.

A lot of Scots voted for Brexit. A minority true but as long as Scotland is part of the UK their votes count as much as English votes. And they are British not Scottish or English  nationalists.

[Ulysses]

27 minutes ago, RobboM said:

UK voted to leave the SIngle Market and the EU isn't keen to dismantle it just to suit UK.
 

 

It's not as simple as the UK asking the EU to dismantle the Single Market.  However, the EU has to ensure that the UK doesn't get more favourable access than other third countries, unless the EU is also getting more favourable access to the UK market.  One of the pillars that protects the operation of the Single Market is that member states have to operate on a level playing field.  We can't give State aid to get a competitive edge, and we can't undercut each other indirectly either by (for example) cutting safety standards, or plant and animal disease standards.  Anyone who wants to trade into certain markets in the EU has to operate to the same level playing field rules.  The UK currently does.  The EU wants the UK to continue operating to those standards, and expects to have to do the same to be able to sell into the UK.

[RobboM]

10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

How is the UK attempting to dismantle the single market?

Because the UK wants access to the single market as it previously had without the obligations, rights and responsibilites that go with it

[Cade]

GFA gives anybody on the Island of Ireland the right to chose whether they consider themselves British or Irish.

It has provisions that say no matter which nationality they chose to identify as, they have the right to live or work on either side of the NI border and have the same rights as people living and working on the other side.
Now, when we were both in the EU this didn't matter as an open border was never in doubt.

This provision is what makes a hard border illegal.

This provision is what Boris' insane Internal Market Bill was trying to breach.

Breaching the GFA moved the Biden crew to mention that the UK would be getting no trade deal with the USA if they breached the GFA.
It also prompted the EU to threaten no trade deal if the UK breached the GFA.

Which is why the border now runs down the Irish sea.

Because that was always the only possible legal endpoint for all of this.

 

 

[Ulysses]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

A lot of Scots voted for Brexit. A minority true but as long as Scotland is part of the UK their votes count as much as English votes. And they are British not Scottish or English  nationalists.

 

These are all valid pieces of data in their own right, but they don't alter the fact that Brexit is first and foremost an exercise in English nationalism.

[Lone Striker]

29 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

If you say so, though I don't see the need.  It's not that people are thick, it's just that they haven't a lot of use for the information.  England is a big country and a big economy.  Most of the population haven't been to Scotland, let alone NI, and it's no wonder that it makes very little impression on them.  Scots are more likely to be aware of NI and have some "use for the information" because of the, erm, unique sporting culture to be found there.  Allied to that is the fact that Brexit is first and foremost an exercise in English nationalism. Other political stuff gets to go along for the spin, but without that English nationalist core the venture wouldn't have gotten very far.

Yes, fair comment.  In addition,  nationalistic flag-waving rhetoric from recognisable strong political orators  can find traction with a lot of folk who would otherwise ignore or not engage with facts about economics, trade etc on either side of an issue like Brexit or Indyref.  Sadly it means that elections and referenda can produce unexpected (some would say irrational) results.   

[Francis Albert]

5 minutes ago, Cade said:

GFA gives anybody on the Island of Ireland the right to chose whether they consider themselves British or Irish.

It has provisions that say no matter which nationality they chose to identify as, they have the right to live or work on either side of the NI border and have the same rights as people living and working on the other side.
Now, when we were both in the EU this didn't matter as an open border was never in doubt.

This provision is what makes a hard border illegal.

This provision is what Boris' insane Internal Market Bill was trying to breach.

Breaching the GFA moved the Biden crew to mention that the UK would be getting no trade deal with the USA if they breached the GFA.
It also prompted the EU to threaten no trade deal if the UK breached the GFA.

Which is why the border now runs down the Irish sea.

Because that was always the only possible legal endpoint for all of this.

 

 

Nothing in what you have said supports your view that a

 so called hard border would be illegal.

[Francis Albert]

11 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Because the UK wants access to the single market as it previously had without the obligations, rights and responsibilites that go with it

Even if that were true it wouldn't amount to an attempt to dismantle the single market.

 

The UK wants a trade agreement much on the lines of the EU's other trade agreements with non-EU members.

[Francis Albert]

15 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

These are all valid pieces of data in their own right, but they don't alter the fact that Brexit is first and foremost an exercise in English nationalism.

As long as and until Scotland is independent the UK will be dominated by English opinion. And British nationalism. 

[manaliveits105]

Feck em let’s just crack on and make sure we reciprocate with any shit they try and give us along the way

bye bye EU the gravy train is pulling out the station

Incisive comment from Blackford as usual 

Toaries bad Johnson bad 

sit doon shut up Fatty

[Mike]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Feck em let’s just crack on and make sure we reciprocate with any shit they try and give us along the way

bye bye EU the gravy train is pulling out the station

Incisive comment from Blackford as usual 

Toaries bad Johnson bad 

sit doon shut up Fatty

Agree short term pain for longterm gain. Blackford is a fat hypocrite considering lack of EU membership was no biggy back in 2014.

[Pans Jambo]

15 minutes ago, Mike said:

Agree short term pain for longterm gain. Blackford is a fat hypocrite considering lack of EU membership was no biggy back in 2014.

Lack of EU membership was THE cornerstone in the Indy ref.

 

"The only way to guarantee membership of the European Union is to vote NO"...ring any bells?

 

Short term pain? Brexit has turned us into a virtual international pariah.

 

We are already seeing shortages of materials and late deliveries from imports and dont forget we import around 60% of our food.

 

Long term gain? what? To be a wee insular country with zero international prospects, starve our citizens and put millions on the dole or in very low paid service jobs as long as we still get Eastenders, the Proms, can sing rule brittania and fawn over the royal family?

 

[manaliveits105]

Singapore and UK sign trade agreement on same terms as Singapores deal with EU

[Mike]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Lack of EU membership was THE cornerstone in the Indy ref.

 

"The only way to guarantee membership of the European Union is to vote NO"...ring any bells?

 

Short term pain? Brexit has turned us into a virtual international pariah.

 

We are already seeing shortages of materials and late deliveries from imports and dont forget we import around 60% of our food.

 

Long term gain? what? To be a wee insular country with zero international prospects, starve our citizens and put millions on the dole or in very low paid service jobs as long as we still get Eastenders, the Proms, can sing rule brittania and fawn over the royal family?

 

And leaving the UK would have seen you out the UK and EU Scotland's 2 biggest trading partners. Its complete arrogance to think you will walk back into the EU ahead of others.

 

A wee insular country with the 6th largest economy in the world.

[Mike]

1 minute ago, manaliveits105 said:

Singapore and UK sign trade agreement on same terms as Singapores deal with EU

Add that to recent deals with Japan, Norway and I believe deals with Canada, New Zealand and Australia are immenint.

 

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, Mike said:

And leaving the UK would have seen you out the UK and EU Scotland's 2 biggest trading partners. Its complete arrogance to think you will walk back into the EU ahead of others.

 

A wee insular country with the 6th largest economy in the world.

How many times must a senior member of the EU say "Yes, Scotland would be most welcome in the EU family" before union flag waving Farage believers understand?

 

Its complete arrogance to believe that the RUK wouldn't want electricity, gas, oil, food, whisky etc etc etc.

 

But you know what mate....short term pain for long term gain eh.

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Lack of EU membership was THE cornerstone in the Indy ref.

 

"The only way to guarantee membership of the European Union is to vote NO"...ring any bells?

 

Short term pain? Brexit has turned us into a virtual international pariah.

 

We are already seeing shortages of materials and late deliveries from imports and dont forget we import around 60% of our food.

 

Long term gain? what? To be a wee insular country with zero international prospects, starve our citizens and put millions on the dole or in very low paid service jobs as long as we still get Eastenders, the Proms, can sing rule brittania and fawn over the royal family?

 

Forgot to add your 60% comment is also pure shite as 50% of our food in produced in the UK so your clearing pulling numbers out the air.

[Mike]

Just now, Pans Jambo said:

How many times must a senior member of the EU say "Yes, Scotland would be most welcome in the EU family" before union flag waving Farage believers understand?

 

Its complete arrogance to believe that the RUK wouldn't want electricity, gas, oil, food, whisky etc etc etc.

 

But you know what mate....short term pain for long term gain eh.

Try one Spanish ambassador who left his job shortly afterwards 😂😂😂

[manaliveits105]

Spanish will never support Scotland getting in because of Catalonia and the SNP’s support of Catalonian separatists 

[Pans Jambo]

10 minutes ago, Mike said:

Add that to recent deals with Japan, Norway and I believe deals with Canada, New Zealand and Australia are immenint.

 

The Japan deal is WORSE than the current deal we have with the EU. How much trade do we do with NZ/Australia etc?

 

The EU is the single biggest trading market on the planet and by the way, this debate is a waste of time. Leaving the EU was NEVER about securing our borders or getting back control or paying the EU 450Million a week (which by the way turns out to be 150Million (ONS report) after we get our rebate back so there's that (just so you know, Scotland pays £577 Million a week to be a member of the UK s lets get that on the side of a bus) any of that shite. It was to fill the coffers of the super wealthy when they eventually turn the UK into a tax haven for the super rich to hide their billions. And like any other tax haven on the planet, it'll have the minority wealthy and the majority in low paid service work with no employee rights.

 

Welcome to tory little britain. 

 

You have been sold a pup.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Spanish will never support Scotland getting in because of Catalonia and the SNP’s support of Catalonian separatists 

Agree I must have missed all those articles where the EU have invited Scotland to rejoin 

[Beni]