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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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The Mighty Thor
8 hours ago, Cade said:

Boris got telt to phone Ursula today.

After 90 mins of talking, he then got on a plane to Brussels.

Summoned to the headmistresses office.

 

 

Its panto season. 

 

In his mind, the dashing buttons is off to the wicked witch's Castle to slay the beast and come back with the prize.  

 

Meanwhile in the real world he's going to go over to get dismantled by an intelligent, thorough and professional politician and he'll be back by teatime banging on about french intransigence, sedition, the empire and two world wars and one world cup. 👍

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SectionDJambo
1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Its panto season. 

 

In his mind, the dashing buttons is off to the wicked witch's Castle to slay the beast and come back with the prize.  

 

Meanwhile in the real world he's going to go over to get dismantled by an intelligent, thorough and professional politician and he'll be back by teatime banging on about french intransigence, sedition, the empire and two world wars and one world cup. 👍

With Rees Mogg in the background, playing Rule Britannia on his mobile phone.

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The Real Maroonblood
10 hours ago, Cade said:

Boris got telt to phone Ursula today.

After 90 mins of talking, he then got on a plane to Brussels.

Summoned to the headmistresses office.

 

 

:pleasing:

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18 minutes ago, Cade said:

Border down the Irish sea.

 

As was only ever the legal end game.

 

Coz GFA made a border on the island of Ireland illegal.

Can anyone explain why the whole issue of the GFA (legally guaranteed/enforceable by the USA, UK and EU   I think) was never mentioned in any referendum debates by either side ?    Maybe I just missed it, but I honestly don't recall it getting any publicity at all.    Were politicians just scared to bring the topic up ?    You'd have thought the likes of Andrew Neil would have quizzed  Farage/Fox/Gove etc about it.     Bizarre.  Yet even Theresa May said no British PM could agree to a border down the Irish Sea when she was trying to negotiate a Withdrawal Agreement - which suggests she wasn't aware of the hole that the UK vote had dug for the government.  Completely bizarre.

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36 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Can anyone explain why the whole issue of the GFA (legally guaranteed/enforceable by the USA, UK and EU   I think) was never mentioned in any referendum debates by either side ?    Maybe I just missed it, but I honestly don't recall it getting any publicity at all.    Were politicians just scared to bring the topic up ?    You'd have thought the likes of Andrew Neil would have quizzed  Farage/Fox/Gove etc about it.     Bizarre.  Yet even Theresa May said no British PM could agree to a border down the Irish Sea when she was trying to negotiate a Withdrawal Agreement - which suggests she wasn't aware of the hole that the UK vote had dug for the government.  Completely bizarre.


It's a good point, covered here in a BBC article
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-49988057

Basically Leave either lied or dismissed any issues as Project Fear

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20 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Aahh, the wee girning, greeting, whinging Ayrshire parasite. 

Don't choke on yer flute, ya girning greeting whinging  Scotland hating traitor. 

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Sir Jim Ratcliffe, Brexit supporter, chair of Ineos and formerly Britain's Richest Man (he fecked off to Monaco last year) has announced the the new "Grenadier" Land Rover Defender will be built in........France.

And not in Wales.

He had previously promised to build a new factory in Bridgend.

 

:rofl:

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38 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Don't choke on yer flute, ya girning greeting whinging  Scotland hating traitor. 

😂. My loyalty doesn't lie with Sturgeon and her bitter, divisive, grievance-ridden nationalism. She can have her St Andys flag and her imaginary white lines and shove them in a place of her choosing.  Just so we're clear😀

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3 hours ago, Cade said:

EU calls UK's bluff, UK capitulates.

 

popcorn_jon_stewart.gif.acfe62b981bb01dbe5a52eb14486d988.gif

That's one way of looking at it ........ another more likely (imo) scenario is it was a bluff all along by the UK, just so  they could have something contentious to then give up voluntarily when the going got tough.  A bit naive admittedly, but it might get things moving. Or it might not.    

 

 

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Captain Sausage

Its all playing out as you’d expect. A bit of brinksmanship from both sides. 
 

We will obviously end up with a deal that is shit for the UK and slightly less shit for the EU. 
 

The bragging by the UK government about the Canadian and Japanese trade deals (which are lesser or equal to the deals we already had) is a preview of how it’ll be spun after the deal is agreed. 
 

It’s all rather sad, and predictable. All because of populist arseholes who’ve whipped up the public into a frenzy and caused this shambles. I’ve no doubt that if the vote was run today, we’d see a completely different result. Those who led the Leave campaign should be up on charges because their lies and disinformation have just ****ed it for us all. 
 

How any level headed person could sit down and genuinely say they are happy with how it’s all gone is beyond me. My parents are both pro-Brexit and their justifications are nothing more than whataboutery, conspiracy and utter bullshit. They’re currently on the hot topic of Covid where Sturgeon is the devil reincarnate, but Boris is doing a great job. It’s mind blowing to see two highly educated, well travelled people so deluded and brainwashed by a batshit political ideology. 

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4 hours ago, RobboM said:


It's a good point, covered here in a BBC article
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-49988057

Basically Leave either lied or dismissed any issues as Project Fear

Thanks for the link. Interesting reading.  The Project Fear jibe is a cheap  put-down (imo) -  it gets used to dismiss any argument or point which the "change" side don't like or don't want to engage with.   

 

So the articles suggest that the Leave politicians did exactly that  (Project Fear put-down), while the Remain politicians felt that most voters outside NI wouldn't understand (or care about)  the rationale...... so didn't bother hammering on it  ?       

 

Tragic stuff.       

 

Am I right in thinking that the acceptance of a border down the Irish Sea was Boris's first  concession a year ago, in order to get a Withdrawal Agreement ?   

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19 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

The EU has no issue with the UK leaving and prospering, but the EU has no business allowing the UK or any other third-party country access to its markets in a way which damages the operation of the Single Market. The UK made the decision to become a third-party entity (like Russia, China and others), and those countries don't get preferential access to the EU's single market unless they trade something back. 

Yes.... agreed.  But what exactly are the EU getting from Canada in exchange for giving them tariff-free access to the Single Market ?   Is it a "French connection" thing ?  

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23 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

How any level headed person could sit down and genuinely say they are happy with how it’s all gone is beyond me. My parents are both pro-Brexit and their justifications are nothing more than whataboutery, conspiracy and utter bullshit. They’re currently on the hot topic of Covid where Sturgeon is the devil reincarnate, but Boris is doing a great job. It’s mind blowing to see two highly educated, well travelled people so deluded and brainwashed by a batshit political ideology. 

 

Oof, and you would know, considering how much time you spent in the States. You'd have seen it all over!

 

Sorry to hear the same sort of cultish blindness has stricken your folks, too.

 

Edited by Justin Z
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10 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Thanks for the link. Interesting reading.  The Project Fear jibe is a cheap  put-down (imo) -  it gets used to dismiss any argument or point which the "change" side don't like or don't want to engage with.   

 

So the articles suggest that the Leave politicians did exactly that  (Project Fear put-down), while the Remain politicians felt that most voters outside NI wouldn't understand (or care about)  the rationale...... so didn't bother hammering on it  ?       

 

Tragic stuff.       

 

Am I right in thinking that the acceptance of a border down the Irish Sea was Boris's first  concession a year ago, in order to get a Withdrawal Agreement ?   


Yes. There's a good blow by blow account of that discussion here
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-how-the-deal-was-done-and-why-the-varadkar-meeting-was-a-turning-point-1.4054437

 

 

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Konrad von Carstein

I have a good friend who has relocated to Cyprus with his missus, his social circle seems to be Remainers in general with a few Leavers mixed in.

 

One of the Leavers, had the temerity to post on FB that and I paraphrase "I knew what I was voting for, out is out, no deal is a good outcome!"

 

Then it comes to light that he "hates the UK and will never return" there seems to be zero logic applied to some of the reasons for voting leave, I am genuinely dismayed that we are leaving for many reasons one of the main ones being that I had hoped to retire to the sun - seems an unlikely outcome now.

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4 hours ago, Cade said:

Sir Jim Ratcliffe, Brexit supporter, chair of Ineos and formerly Britain's Richest Man (he fecked off to Monaco last year) has announced the the new "Grenadier" Land Rover Defender will be built in........France.

And not in Wales.

He had previously promised to build a new factory in Bridgend.

 

:rofl:

Yip. Brexit voters shafted again whilst the toly enablers get even more wealthier. 
You were warned!

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/brexit-supporting-ineos-boss-scraps-uk-factory-plans-build-france/?fbclid=IwAR0Buy0rGoK7FIWs1dR9YYHOQJpixn6cmlKcPAnh7LZ3jGICRQy8xvbmo6c

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4 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Yes.... agreed.  But what exactly are the EU getting from Canada in exchange for giving them tariff-free access to the Single Market ?   Is it a "French connection" thing ?  

 

Canada isn't getting tariff-free access to the Single Market.  Canada is getting access on a phased basis to many markets, in return for which EU member states are getting access on a phased basis to many Canadian markets.  The biggest beneficiaries will be Canadian exporters of goods and services not produced in the EU, and vice versa.  While CETA is a significant and comprehensive agreement covering a wide range of economic activities, it falls very far short of the access EU member states have to each other's markets, and of the mutual market access arrangements the EU has with Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. 

 

For example, right now I can do business with a British or French company on exactly the same basis as an Irish company, and I have to treat UK businesses and employees fairly by comparison with their Irish equivalents.  Three of the five most recent service contracts I've handed out went to UK providers - 2 in England, 1 in Wales.  Post-Brexit, I could be allowed discriminate against the British provider in favour of an Irish or (say) Spanish provider.  In a no-deal Brexit, I may not be allowed do business with the UK provider at all, or there may be additional tariffs or VAT.  Better still, government agencies or bodies have to treat EU  businesses the same as domestic businesses when tendering for contracts - and British businesses are very competitive in securing high-value service contracts in the EU.  In a no-deal Brexit, that business is likely to be lost.  In fact, the Canadians may end up with a competitive edge (and no language barrier in Ireland's case).

 

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10 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Can anyone explain why the whole issue of the GFA (legally guaranteed/enforceable by the USA, UK and EU   I think) was never mentioned in any referendum debates by either side ?    Maybe I just missed it, but I honestly don't recall it getting any publicity at all.    Were politicians just scared to bring the topic up ?    You'd have thought the likes of Andrew Neil would have quizzed  Farage/Fox/Gove etc about it.     Bizarre.  Yet even Theresa May said no British PM could agree to a border down the Irish Sea when she was trying to negotiate a Withdrawal Agreement - which suggests she wasn't aware of the hole that the UK vote had dug for the government.  Completely bizarre.

 

Here's a possible explanation.

 

The only people in the UK who realise that NI is part of the UK are people in NI and some football supporters in Scotland.  Just a thought.

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The Mighty Thor

Big day for Boris the bullshitter today. 

Potentially the day the charlatans run out of road. They've been lying to both sides for the last 4 years and maybe today is the day that he has to either come back with a deal, which ends him as Prime Minister or come back with no deal and tank what's left the economy after their shite handling of Covid. 

 

I'll go with a no deal outcome as it'll benefit his financial backers and sponsors. 

 

Sunlit uplands!

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Captain Sausage
11 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Oof, and you would know, considering how much time you spent in the States. You'd have seen it all over!

 

Sorry to hear the same sort of cultish blindness has stricken your folks, too.

 


:thumbsup:

 

Its pretty sad to see. And like you say, easy to visualise across vast swathes of America. 
 

It’s not that all of these people are idiots, rather I feel like they have been indoctrinated and their support is unfaltering. It’s impossible to hold a rational discussion, as any negative opinion counter to theirs is dismissed as ‘fake news’, ‘project fear’, etc. 
 

I have no idea what you do to counter it. Those controlling the narrative have done an exceptional job to allow followers to effectively refuse to accept the truth. Pushing facts and figures down their throat does nothing but further their entrenched views that the establishment is out to undermine them. 

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1 hour ago, Captain Sausage said:

It’s not that all of these people are idiots, rather I feel like they have been indoctrinated and their support is unfaltering. It’s impossible to hold a rational discussion, as any negative opinion counter to theirs is dismissed as ‘fake news’, ‘project fear’, etc.

 

Agreed, although the reverse is also true—many of them absolutely are idiots. :lol: I feel like half a century of primarily GOP pandering to the idea that magical/wishful thinking is just as good as science, data, expertise, etc., is a big part of why. That said, you're right, even otherwise smart folks get caught up in this way of thinking and then...

 

1 hour ago, Captain Sausage said:

I have no idea what you do to counter it.

 

And then this. I have no idea either. The brainwashing is complete. :sad:

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Captain Sausage
53 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Agreed, although the reverse is also true—many of them absolutely are idiots. :lol: I feel like half a century of primarily GOP pandering to the idea that magical/wishful thinking is just as good as science, data, expertise, etc., is a big part of why. That said, you're right, even otherwise smart folks get caught up in this way of thinking and then...

 

 

And then this. I have no idea either. The brainwashing is complete. :sad:


Across the entire political spectrum, views are becoming more entrenched and more definitive. 
 

I’m right, you’re wrong. There’s little room for middle ground or conversation. It’s pretty depressing but I guess it’s an inevitable result of the explosion of availability of information. People read headlines, people focus on outlets that align with their bias and people belittle those who hold different views (sometimes fairly tbh, eg anti-vaxxers). 
 

It’s now seen as a sign of weakness/indecision not to belong to a political ideology, etc. Which, for me, is completely bonkers.  

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NI firms will have to fill out customs forms when sending goods to the UK mainland.

So much for "check the forms in the bin" as BoJo the Clown was saying last year.

 

Oh, and the Honda plant in the UK has had to halt production due to supply chain issues.

Their car parts are stuck in the ports.

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Francis Albert
On 08/12/2020 at 01:00, Ulysses said:

 

The EU has no issue with the UK leaving and prospering, but the EU has no business allowing the UK or any other third-party country access to its markets in a way which damages the operation of the Single Market. The UK made the decision to become a third-party entity (like Russia, China and others), and those countries don't get preferential access to the EU's single market unless they trade something back. 

Do other trade agreements the EU has have similar provisions the EU is demanding of the UK?

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Francis Albert
5 hours ago, Cade said:

NI firms will have to fill out customs forms when sending goods to the UK mainland.

So much for "check the forms in the bin" as BoJo the Clown was saying last year.

 

Oh, and the Honda plant in the UK has had to halt production due to supply chain issues.

Their car parts are stuck in the ports.

Does the Honda issue have anything to do with Brexit?

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Francis Albert
20 hours ago, Captain Sausage said:

Its all playing out as you’d expect. A bit of brinksmanship from both sides. 
 

We will obviously end up with a deal that is shit for the UK and slightly less shit for the EU. 
 

The bragging by the UK government about the Canadian and Japanese trade deals (which are lesser or equal to the deals we already had) is a preview of how it’ll be spun after the deal is agreed. 
 

It’s all rather sad, and predictable. All because of populist arseholes who’ve whipped up the public into a frenzy and caused this shambles. I’ve no doubt that if the vote was run today, we’d see a completely different result. Those who led the Leave campaign should be up on charges because their lies and disinformation have just ****ed it for us all. 
 

How any level headed person could sit down and genuinely say they are happy with how it’s all gone is beyond me. My parents are both pro-Brexit and their justifications are nothing more than whataboutery, conspiracy and utter bullshit. They’re currently on the hot topic of Covid where Sturgeon is the devil reincarnate, but Boris is doing a great job. It’s mind blowing to see two highly educated, well travelled people so deluded and brainwashed by a batshit political ideology. 

How dare they have different opinions from you.

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5 hours ago, Cade said:

NI firms will have to fill out customs forms when sending goods to the UK mainland.

So much for "check the forms in the bin" as BoJo the Clown was saying last year.

 

Oh, and the Honda plant in the UK has had to halt production due to supply chain issues.

Their car parts are stuck in the ports.

Interruption to JiT manufacture & logistics is apparently happening in other countries as well - something to do with the shipping supply chain disruptions.  Covid knock-on effects in some exporting countries was being mentioned as one of the reasons.   It doesn't take much of a wobble  to disrupt JiT manufacture schedules.   I don't think you can blame Brexit for that one - yet.:whistling: 

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manaliveits105
5 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Further discussions tonight.

Over dinner ffs.

Must be serious.

:rofl:

If all else fails the PM might get his Nat King 

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5 hours ago, fancy a brew said:

 

OIP.pUYnj2K6kOv86lbWCXm-dwHaOz?w=146&h=2

 

😲   Begs the question - why are so many women seemingly happy to be impregnated by that ?

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15 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Canada isn't getting tariff-free access to the Single Market.  Canada is getting access on a phased basis to many markets, in return for which EU member states are getting access on a phased basis to many Canadian markets.  The biggest beneficiaries will be Canadian exporters of goods and services not produced in the EU, and vice versa.  While CETA is a significant and comprehensive agreement covering a wide range of economic activities, it falls very far short of the access EU member states have to each other's markets, and of the mutual market access arrangements the EU has with Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. 

 

For example, right now I can do business with a British or French company on exactly the same basis as an Irish company, and I have to treat UK businesses and employees fairly by comparison with their Irish equivalents.  Three of the five most recent service contracts I've handed out went to UK providers - 2 in England, 1 in Wales.  Post-Brexit, I could be allowed discriminate against the British provider in favour of an Irish or (say) Spanish provider.  In a no-deal Brexit, I may not be allowed do business with the UK provider at all, or there may be additional tariffs or VAT.  Better still, government agencies or bodies have to treat EU  businesses the same as domestic businesses when tendering for contracts - and British businesses are very competitive in securing high-value service contracts in the EU.  In a no-deal Brexit, that business is likely to be lost.  In fact, the Canadians may end up with a competitive edge (and no language barrier in Ireland's case).

 

Thanks for that explanation.    So can we conclude that the UK is in fact NOT asking for a Canada-style FTA ?   If that's the case, it's yet another black mark on the media for the lazy way they're reporting all this. 

 

15 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Here's a possible explanation.

 

The only people in the UK who realise that NI is part of the UK are people in NI and some football supporters in Scotland.  Just a thought.

Oh I agree with you there.  Basic simple geography, or just google the difference between GB and UK.   👍

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manaliveits105
11 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

😲   Begs the question - why are so many women seemingly happy to be impregnated by that ?

He was looking trim at the vaccinations yesterday - he has been on diet and excercise since catching covid - an example to us all 

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Francis Albert
On 08/12/2020 at 14:16, Lone Striker said:

Can anyone explain why the whole issue of the GFA (legally guaranteed/enforceable by the USA, UK and EU   I think) was never mentioned in any referendum debates by either side ?    Maybe I just missed it, but I honestly don't recall it getting any publicity at all.    Were politicians just scared to bring the topic up ?    You'd have thought the likes of Andrew Neil would have quizzed  Farage/Fox/Gove etc about it.     Bizarre.  Yet even Theresa May said no British PM could agree to a border down the Irish Sea when she was trying to negotiate a Withdrawal Agreement - which suggests she wasn't aware of the hole that the UK vote had dug for the government.  Completely bizarre.

Maybe because there is nothing in the GFA which precludes the UK (or the ROI for that matter or indeed both) leaving the EU. Nor is there anything in the GFA that precludes a customs border between Northern Ireland and the ROI.

The GFA became an issue when those who lost the referendum were looking around for any and every way to obstruct Brexit.

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Francis Albert
15 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Here's a possible explanation.

 

The only people in the UK who realise that NI is part of the UK are people in NI and some football supporters in Scotland.  Just a thought.

The thick Brits eh?

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8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Maybe because there is nothing in the GFA which precludes the UK (or the ROI for that matter or indeed both) leaving the EU. Nor is there anything in the GFA that precludes a customs border between Northern Ireland and the ROI.

The GFA became an issue when those who lost the referendum were looking around for any and every way to obstruct Brexit.

Not sure about that statement being correct.  From my (limited) understanding, the border remaining open and unhindered by customs checks was a cornerstone of it.          

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Francis Albert
On 08/12/2020 at 13:45, Cade said:

Border down the Irish sea.

 

As was only ever the legal end game.

 

Coz GFA made a border on the island of Ireland illegal.

Where does the GFA say that? I  have asked that many times and never got a reply.

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14 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

He was looking trim at the vaccinations yesterday - he has been on diet and excercise since catching covid - an example to us all 

All things are relative. I suppose.  😉

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Francis Albert
1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Not sure about that statement being correct.  From my (limited) understanding, the border remaining open and unhindered by customs checks was a cornerstone of it.          

But strangely not mentioned in the GFA.

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21 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

But strangely not mentioned in the GFA.

Just looked at the GFA (Belfast Agreement) - you are correct, no actual mention of it as an  agreed requirement. 

 

However there are sections which express  aspirations to keep checks/security/impediments  to a minimum.   Over time, the border has disappeared as a physical entity, with just road signs to tell you it's there.    

 

 It seems that  it was the Irish government who twigged immediately after the referendum that the current open nature of the border could be in jeopardy - and the EU took up the fight on behalf of Ireland, since it represented a new land border for the single market while  the Irish government wanted it to remain as it was (in the context of the island).   Probably fair to say the EU has played a blinder on this one !!

 

 

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

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