Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[NANOJAMBO]

6 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Fishing stocks under the EU fisheries policy have been much worse than decimated. A mere 10% reduction would have been wonderful. 

That is absolute bollocks. And you know it. 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

And Barnier and the EU apparently.

And more so to the brexiteers. 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

And Barnier and the EU apparently.

PS And OBVIOUSLY important to you as you were the one who took us down this particular rabbit hole.

Out of interest , do you have any stats or details on who owns the fishing rights , what % has been sold off to EU boats, what % is actually retained with Scotland ? 

[NANOJAMBO]

3 hours ago, jake said:

Holy fish .

Let's make more cars.

 

Have fun chewing a steering wheel.

😂

Is that it ? 

[NANOJAMBO]

4 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

As asked before why is fish such a critical red line for the EU and Barnier? Why should  UK fish be a "common resource" after UK leaves the EU? The UK has no intention of denying access to UK waters and as you suggest the UK industry is so run down that it will still need EU boats to land much of  UK fish. Why should UK outside the EU not control quotas for UK fish? Like Norway and Iceland and almost every other nation?  How is that about "ruling the waves"?

 

And while UK fishermen may have depleted UK waters fish they did so much less comprehensively than every other nation in the EU with a fishing industry.

 

It wasn't "asked before" : I replied to your nonsense about project fear being an influence on brexit negotiations and you predictably took the argument to a place you found more comfortable : fishing. 

 

No one was talking about it until then. 

[jake]

1 minute ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Is that it ? 

Pretty much.

It's obvious you just want to get into brexiteers rule Britannia huvnae got a clue shitey student patter .

So eat steering wheels if cars are so important.

Imagine suggesting that fish stocks and sea life in general are less important than cars.

 

By the way car  production.

Want to tell me how brexit affected this.

Because I had this out before.

 

Let's hear your informed arguments.

 

 

[jake]

8 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Are you allowed to be an administrator and to fire in with your intellectually half-baked opinions? 

 

I always assumed there ought to be a neutral point of view somewhere. 

 

Are you finally coming clean, in that this website is not neutral at all, or have you personally given up?

 

 

Bit shit if he cant post his own views .

Admin or not.

I know he thinks I post shit but I'm still allowed to.

 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

23 minutes ago, jake said:

Pretty much.

It's obvious you just want to get into brexiteers rule Britannia huvnae got a clue shitey student patter .

So eat steering wheels if cars are so important.

Imagine suggesting that fish stocks and sea life in general are less important than cars.

 

By the way car  production.

Want to tell me how brexit affected this.

Because I had this out before.

 

Let's hear your informed arguments.

 

 

Go back to the start : FA introduced the fishing nonsense when it wasn't even under discussion and you're getting all hot & bothered about it. 

If you want to debate the merits & worth  of fishing to the UK economy I'm happy to hear your thoughts on :

 

over fishing by UK fleet before 1973

 

over fishing in general since 1973 

 

how has the EU (if it has) depleted fish stocks 

 

the relative worth of the UK fishing fleet to the UK economy 

 

why the UK has sold so much of its fishing rights to the EU when it's seemingly so important.

 

"Let's hear your informed arguments."...on you go. 

[ri Alban]

17 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Will the same principle apply to Indyref2 if the "main group advocating the change" wins? 

You're a Londoner. It has feck all to do with you. Or are one of these fake ass Scots who might return one day, that you think it's your right, that you have a say in a country you thought highly of, you fecked off. Spending your life's earnings on another country's economy. 

No, you stay there little Englander and fish yer part of the Channel, Irish sea and North sea. We'll fish where everything  makes money, our part of the North Sea and Atlantic. 

Why is Scotland so important to England? Must be something in it for them, if we are such a drain. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by ri Alban

[OBE]

4 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Go back to the start : FA introduced the fishing nonsense when it wasn't even under discussion and you're getting all hot & bothered about it. 

If you want to debate the merits & worth  of fishing to the UK economy I'm happy to hear your thoughts on :

 

over fishing by UK fleet before 1973

 

over fishing in general since 1973 

 

how has the EU (if it has) depleted fish stocks 

 

the relative worth of the UK fishing fleet to the UK economy 

 

why the UK has sold so much of its fishing rights to the EU when it's seemingly so important.

 

"Let's hear your informed arguments."...on you go. 

 

Could be they have a blatant disregard for legal net mesh size. Pitifully under size North Sea fish like Cod, Haddock, Whiting and sole, all on display in major European supermarkets. EU fishing regulations?...they've been taking the piss for years.

 

Post 2020, this year can feck right off...

Edited September 5, 2020 by OBE

[ri Alban]

4 minutes ago, OBE said:

 

Could be they have a blatant disregard for legal net mesh size. Pitifully under size North Sea fish like Cod, Haddock, Whiting and sole, all on display in major European supermarkets. EU fishing regulations?...they've been taking the piss for years.

So who'll be taking the pish after brexit in Scottish waters? 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, OBE said:

 

Could be they have a blatant disregard for legal net mesh size. Pitifully under size North Sea fish like Cod, Haddock, Whiting and sole, all on display in major European supermarkets. EU fishing regulations?...they've been taking the piss for years.

 

I lived in the EU for a decade, never once saw anything like this.

Where are you getting this from?

[ri Alban]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

I lived in the EU for a decade, never once saw anything like this.

Where are you getting this from?

The Hong Kong book of Kong 💩

[OBE]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

I lived in the EU for a decade, never once saw anything like this.

Where are you getting this from?

 

Supermarket in Los Alcazares, Costa Calida. My friend is a fishmonger, he pointed them out, I suggested he take photo's, he declined, didn't want to get involved he said. I looked at him bemused and we moved on.

[OBE]

24 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

So who'll be taking the pish after brexit in Scottish waters? 

 

Anyone who has the/a bottle.

Edited September 5, 2020 by OBE

[Unknown user]

19 minutes ago, OBE said:

 

Supermarket in Los Alcazares, Costa Calida. My friend is a fishmonger, he pointed them out, I suggested he take photo's, he declined, didn't want to get involved he said. I looked at him bemused and we moved on.

 

 

As I say I never once saw it in 10 years in a country that's fish daft, so I'd question how big an issue it is. There's certainly unscrupulous arseholes everywhere though, no doubt about that

[OBE]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

 

As I say I never once saw it in 10 years in a country that's fish daft, so I'd question how big an issue it is. There's certainly unscrupulous arseholes everywhere though, no doubt about that

 

My fishmonger friend brought this to my attention about 15 years ago in Los Cristianos Tenerife. Now, whenever I'm in a supermarket abroad I'm curious and have a deek. Porto and Malaga, same thing.

 

Yes, I agree about the unscrupulous arseholes...but major supermarkets.

 

You said previously "you've never seen anything like this"...were you looking?

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

It seems unfair.

and when it comes to opinions, this website seems unfair too. 

 

Dry your eyes.

[Francis Albert]

5 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Go back to the start : FA introduced the fishing nonsense when it wasn't even under discussion and you're getting all hot & bothered about it. I

 

In a thread called "Brexit Negotiations", in a discussion on the positions taken by the parties to these negotiations, I referred to a speech in Dublin just the day before by the chief EU negotiator Michel Barnier in which he said UK could have sovereignty over its territorial waters but not over the fish in those waters because they are a common EU resource.

If anyone introduced or reintroduced the "fishing nonsense" it was Michel Barnier.

 

(PS overnight reports suggest there may be a change to Barnier's role in the negotiations. There have been indications before that EU leaders may not all be quite as enthusiastic about Barnier's performance as UK Remainers)

Edited September 5, 2020 by Francis Albert

[Unknown user]

47 minutes ago, OBE said:

 

My fishmonger friend brought this to my attention about 15 years ago in Los Cristianos Tenerife. Now, whenever I'm in a supermarket abroad I'm curious and have a deek. Porto and Malaga, same thing.

 

Yes, I agree about the unscrupulous arseholes...but major supermarkets.

 

You said previously "you've never seen anything like this"...were you looking?

Not in particular but pitifully under size is pretty noticeable to even a humble layman. I guess we'll have to leave it there though, I have my doubts you have yours, sunrise, sunset.

[Beni]

53 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

In a thread called "Brexit Negotiations", in a discussion on the positions taken by the parties to these negotiations, I referred to a speech in Dublin just the day before by the chief EU negotiator Michel Barnier in which he said UK could have sovereignty over its territorial waters but not over the fish in those waters because they are a common EU resource.

If anyone introduced or reintroduced the "fishing nonsense" it was Michel Barnier.

 

(PS overnight reports suggest there may be a change to Barnier's role in the negotiations. There have been indications before that EU leaders may not all be quite as enthusiastic about Barnier's performance as UK Remainers)

 

Did he say that? Strange that it wouldn't warrant a mention in the Daily Mail report. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8693405/amp/Michel-Barnier-delivers-ultimatum-post-Brexit-fishing-rights.html

[Boof]

10 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Fish is of little economic consequence in any macro sense. However it’s an important political totem for brexiteers. 

 

But for some pockets of the country it is of enormous significance.
 

In Shetland, a combination of aquaculture, seafood processing and fish catching contributed 28.4% to its economic output. Fire in ports and harbours dues, marine engineering and sea transport and that rounds it nicely to precisely one-third.

 

Even just fish-catching itself totalled 6.5%.

 

Data available here https://www.nafc.uhi.ac.uk/t4-media/one-web/nafc/research/document/shetland-fisheries-statistics/economy/Shetlands-Maritime-Economy-2019.pdf

 

I'm utterly convinced a lot of Shetland fishermen have little trust in the CFP and simply wanted to get out of the EU entirely.

[davemclaren]

8 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Angus Robertson lost his seat at Westminster, for many reasons, the Scottish fishing and agricultultural industries being two of them.

 

 

Local issues. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, fancy a brew said:

 

Did he say that? Strange that it wouldn't warrant a mention in the Daily Mail report. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8693405/amp/Michel-Barnier-delivers-ultimatum-post-Brexit-fishing-rights.html

The Mail's report in the paper. "Mr Barnier is demanding that EU trawlers retain their existing rights to fish in Britain's waters, claiming they are a "common resource". Speaking in Dublin, he said "Obviously the UK will recover the full sovereignty on their waters. But it is another thing speaking about the fish which are inside the waters". Now I know the Mail is not beyond spinning but at the least there seems to be some inconsistency or contradiction in Barnier's words , in both the paper and online versions.

 

Now given that fish swim and don't recognise lines drawn on maps it is  true that to an extent they are a common resource and that arrangements between states on fishing quotas make sense. Indeed there are bilateral arrangements for example between the EU and Norway on this very issue. But as I understand it the EU's position to  date has been that quotas must be set in accordance with existing EU rules. There seems room for compromise perhaps based on the Norwegian precedent.

 

My basic point was that "EU good UK bad" is perhaps an oversimplification of the parties respective positions.

Quite why this point aroused such consternation among many posters to the extent of outrage that it should even be made and discussed on the Brexit Negotiations thread is a puzzle.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Francis Albert

[davemclaren]

41 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

But for some pockets of the country it is of enormous significance.
 

In Shetland, a combination of aquaculture, seafood processing and fish catching contributed 28.4% to its economic output. Fire in ports and harbours dues, marine engineering and sea transport and that rounds it nicely to precisely one-third.

 

Even just fish-catching itself totalled 6.5%.

 

Data available here https://www.nafc.uhi.ac.uk/t4-media/one-web/nafc/research/document/shetland-fisheries-statistics/economy/Shetlands-Maritime-Economy-2019.pdf

 

I'm utterly convinced a lot of Shetland fishermen have little trust in the CFP and simply wanted to get out of the EU entirely.

I agree that for a few areas it is a key issue. 

[Cade]

The UK fishing industry has been decimated by the UK government and the fishermen themselves.

It was the UK government that allowed supertrawlers to replace entire fleets of small boats and cost thousands of jobs.

It was the fishermen that chose to sell their quotas to the Belgians and Dutch.

Trying to pin it on the EU is laughable.

[Weakened Offender]

9 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Are you allowed to be an administrator and to fire in with your intellectually half-baked opinions? 

 

I always assumed there ought to be a neutral point of view somewhere. 

 

Are you finally coming clean, in that this website is not neutral at all, or have you personally given up?

 

 

 

Permission for Zlat's bottom lip to tremble please, Dave. 

[Beni]

36 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The Mail's report in the paper. "Mr Barnier is demanding that EU trawlers retain their existing rights to fish in Britain's waters, claiming they are a "common resource". Speaking in Dublin, he said "Obviously the UK will recover the full sovereignty on their waters. But it is another thing speaking about the fish which are inside the waters". Now I know the Mail is not beyond spinning but at the least there seems to be some inconsistency or contradiction in Barnier's words , in both the paper and online versions.

 

Now given that fish swim and don't recognise lines drawn on maps it is  true that to an extent they are a common resource and that arrangements between states on fishing quotas make sense. Indeed there are bilateral arrangements for example between the EU and Norway on this very issue. But as I understand it the EU's position to  date has been that quotas must be set in accordance with existing EU rules. There seems room for compromise perhaps based on the Norwegian precedent.

 

My basic point was that "EU good UK bad" is perhaps an oversimplification of the parties respective positions.

Quite why this point aroused such consternation among many posters to the extent of outrage that it should even be made and discussed on the Brexit Negotiations thread is a puzzle.

 

 

So the 'common resource' bit was Daily Mail interpretation, probably better to stick to what he actually said. As has been mentioned already overfishing is an issue in EU/British water, so reaching some sort of a deal is in everyone's interest. English fishermen sold off more than half of their quota to foreigners, but I suppose they've been promised they will be allowed to have their cake and eat it, so it's understandable why fishing has become a political football.

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, fancy a brew said:

 

So the 'common resource' bit was Daily Mail interpretation, probably better to stick to what he actually said. As has been mentioned already overfishing is an issue in EU/British water, so reaching some sort of a deal is in everyone's interest. English fishermen sold off more than half of their quota to foreigners, but I suppose they've been promised they will be allowed to have their cake and eat it, so it's understandable why fishing has become a political football.

The "common resource" bit is in quotes so I don't know if it is Barnier's words or the Mail's. But it seems implicit in any case in his other words. I agree (as I said) that a deal of some sort is in everyone's interests. 

The supposition of a "promise" to UK fisherman is of course pure speculation.

[Beni]

13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The "common resource" bit is in quotes so I don't know if it is Barnier's words or the Mail's. But it seems implicit in any case in his other words. I agree (as I said) that a deal of some sort is in everyone's interests. 

The supposition of a "promise" to UK fisherman is of course pure speculation.

 

The cake and eating it bit was of course a reference to Johnson's quote about leaving the EU, but as the businesses preparing for border checks in Northern Ireland now understand, there's a difference between rhetoric and reality.

[Justin Z]

12 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

It seems unfair.

and when it comes to opinions, this website seems unfair too.

 

ZlaTimable back at it again, classic

 

3 hours ago, Weakened Offender said:

Permission for Zlat's bottom lip to tremble please, Dave. 

 

🥺

[Cade]

National Front, EDL, Britain First, Democratic Football Lad's Alliance and various other far-right bampots marching on Dover down the A20, singing "Rule Brittania"

 

Ringpieces.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Cade

[The Mighty Thor]

On 04/09/2020 at 13:32, Francis Albert said:

Why if fishing rights are a total red herring  is the EU determined not to relinquish them and not grant an independent UK the same rights as Norway and Iceland to name but two?

 

And the totally unrelated Coronavirus recession is now dragged into the equation by Remainers for some reason.

As has been pointed out fishing rights are negligible in the economic sense.

What you should be asking is what is the newly independent UK going to do with this plentiful marine harvest? 

In general terms we export what we catch and import what we actually eat. 

From that perspective its fairly obvious why the EU are playing hard ball. Why would they roll over to this shower of incompetents?

The coronavirus recession is a foli for all the other nonsense this lot are trying to cover up. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

37 minutes ago, Cade said:

National Front, EDL, Britain First, Democratic Football Lad's Alliance and various other far-right bampots marching on Dover down the A20, singing "Rule Brittania"

 

Ringpieces.

Is Johnson not leading these muppets?

[Cade]

UK wins the fake "fish war"

UK exports most of it's fish to the EU

EU tariffs push the price of fish up

Demand falls in the EU

UK has no customers for fish

Fisheries close

Rule feckin Brittania

 

Think it through.

[jake]

4 hours ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Permission for Zlat's bottom lip to tremble please, Dave. 

Quite the little female dog aren't you.

[jake]

2 minutes ago, Cade said:

UK wins the fake "fish war"

UK exports most of it's fish to the EU

EU tariffs push the price of fish up

Demand falls in the EU

UK has no customers for fish

Fisheries close

Rule feckin Brittania

 

Think it through.

Bit simplistic .

Much like most if the anti brexit posts tbf.

[davemclaren]

16 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Are you allowed to be an administrator and to fire in with your intellectually half-baked opinions? 

 

I always assumed there ought to be a neutral point of view somewhere. 

 

Are you finally coming clean, in that this website is not neutral at all, or have you personally given up?

 

 

The website tries to be as neutral as possible/practical but I don’t - I’m not the Speaker of the house of commons. Just like you I have opinions and others can judge ( in their opinion ) whether mine, and/or yours, are intellectually half baked. 

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

UK wins the fake "fish war"

UK exports most of it's fish to the EU

EU tariffs push the price of fish up

Demand falls in the EU

UK has no customers for fish

Fisheries close

Rule feckin Brittania

 

Think it through.

Alternatively:

The EU has no obvious alternative source of fish (the Med and Baltic and Black Sea  are fished out despite 50 years of the EU Common Fishery Policy) and there are no obvious substitutes for UK fish within easy reach of the European market)

UK imposes tariffs on UK exports of fish  (perhaps in part retaliation for EU tariffs on cars?)

This funds protection of UK waters against over fishing.

And UK investment in the UK fishing industry which recovers from long continuing decline in the 50 years of the Common Fishery Policy.

Who knows? 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Francis Albert

[Weakened Offender]

17 hours ago, jake said:

Pretty much.

It's obvious you just want to get into brexiteers rule Britannia huvnae got a clue shitey student patter .

So eat steering wheels if cars are so important.

Imagine suggesting that fish stocks and sea life in general are less important than cars.

 

By the way car  production.

Want to tell me how brexit affected this.

Because I had this out before.

 

Let's hear your informed arguments.

 

 

 

Sensible post, IMHO. 

[Weakened Offender]

5 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

 

I wasn't having a go at you

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

26 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

 

[Cade]

Some of the other zoomers at Dover today included:

Pie and Mash Squad (offshoot of DFLA)

former Combat-18 members.

For Britain

Qanon twats

 

 

[John Frum]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Alternatively:

The EU has no obvious alternative source of fish (the Med and Baltic and Black Sea  are fished out despite 50 years of the EU Common Fishery Policy) and there are no obvious substitutes for UK fish within easy reach of the European market)

UK imposes tariffs on UK exports of fish  (perhaps in part retaliation for EU tariffs on cars?)

This funds protection of UK waters against over fishing.

And UK investment in the UK fishing industry which recovers from long continuing decline in the 50 years of the Common Fishery Policy.

Who knows? 

 

You've got the tariffs the wrong way round mate. It's the importing country that applies tariffs which are typically passed onto the consumer. Exports of UK fish will result in tariffs being paid to EU governments by the importer of record into the EU who will invariably pass those tariffs onto the EU consumer (the UK government gets nothing). Tariffs generally destroy demand for imports - we'd better hope the fishermen have a new market lined up or are confident tariffs won't destroy demand for their product. 

If you mean the UK should allocate some of the profit it will make from tariffs applied to imports of cars to some sort of fisheries fund, I suspect it's unlikely - the UK Government will just add those into the overall tax take and spend it on whatever the priority of the day is.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, John Frum said:

You've got the tariffs the wrong way round mate. It's the importing country that applies tariffs which are typically passed onto the consumer. Exports of UK fish will result in tariffs being paid to EU governments by the importer of record into the EU who will invariably pass those tariffs onto the EU consumer (the UK government gets nothing). Tariffs generally destroy demand for imports - we'd better hope the fishermen have a new market lined up or are confident tariffs won't destroy demand for their product. 

If you mean the UK should allocate some of the profit it will make from tariffs applied to imports of cars to some sort of fisheries fund, I suspect it's unlikely - the UK Government will just add those into the overall tax take and spend it on whatever the priority of the day is.

Export tariffs are rare because generally countries want to promote exports and discourage imports. But they are not unheard of. As you say tariffs on imports can be used to subsidise local industry.

[Cade]

EU parliament puts a date of 31st October for a deal.

No extensions.

This is a hard red line.

Either the next round of talks comes up with something, or it's off the cliff edge we go.

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

You tuck in mate. You always do. 

We know you. 

[The Mighty Thor]

6 hours ago, Cade said:

EU parliament puts a date of 31st October for a deal.

No extensions.

This is a hard red line.

Either the next round of talks comes up with something, or it's off the cliff edge we go.

The BBC report that Lord Frost the chief negotiator is 'not afraid' to walk away without a deal and that taking back control of our borders is the single most important thing. 

There you have it. The stance taken on critically important future trade negotiations is 'taking back control of our borders'. Nothing to do with trade, just no more immigrants. 

That'll keep the supermarket shelves full 👍

[ri Alban]

11 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The BBC report that Lord Frost the chief negotiator is 'not afraid' to walk away without a deal and that taking back control of our borders is the single most important thing. 

There you have it. The stance taken on critically important future trade negotiations is 'taking back control of our borders'. Nothing to do with trade, just no more immigrants. 

That'll keep the supermarket shelves full 👍

It won't be our problem for much longer. 

Let them eat cake! 

Edited September 6, 2020 by ri Alban

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

On 05/09/2020 at 06:38, ri Alban said:

So who'll be taking the pish after brexit in Scottish waters? 

There's been enough Scots taking a pishing in Scottish waters for year's never mind anybody else after brexit 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Ma Roon