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Brexit Negotiations

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Justin Z
7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Cheers! 👍 

I thought the Greens would have done a bit better. I also thought they'd do better in the UK aswell. I suppose people talk a good game, when it comes to the environment. (Although the Greens are still a bit mental, on certain things).

 

I do think you're right, but I think it's a lot more that Greens have shot themselves in the foot so many times. For example, almost universally advocating against nuclear energy production even though it has for decades been the cleanest, lowest impact replacement for coal and other polluting energy generation. We're finally getting to the point where wind, solar, etc. can start replacing coal, but we've arrived here with untold more environmental damage because of their opposition. A bit mental doesn't quite capture it.

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ri Alban
7 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I do think you're right, but I think it's a lot more that Greens have shot themselves in the foot so many times. For example, almost universally advocating against nuclear energy production even though it has for decades been the cleanest, lowest impact replacement for coal and other polluting energy generation. We're finally getting to the point where wind, solar, etc. can start replacing coal, but we've arrived here with untold more environmental damage because of their opposition. A bit mental doesn't quite capture it.

There's also the fact that electric batteries for cars are even worse (To create and dispose of), yet they're all for it. The destruction of the sea floor doesn't seem to register on their RADAR, unless I missed it, that is.

Edited by ri Alban

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Justin Z
Just now, ri Alban said:

There's also the fact, that electric batteries for cars are even worse(To create and dispose of), yet they're all for it. The destruction of the sea floor does seem to register on their RADAR, unless I missed it, that is.

 

Yeah. Another good example.

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Justin Z
3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Cheers! 👍

 

image.png.86578ce14c4271d3c66a762856514d5c.png

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The Mighty Thor

Gove confirms frictionless trade will end at the end of 2020.

Businesses have had ages to prepare for this apparently.

10 months to recruit thousands of customs agents, vets, immigration officers, build customs posts and get a working customs IT system up and running.

I can see that ending well. 

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Cade

Barnier expressly rules out open access for UK banks.

giphy.gif

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jake

Is the standard for human rights labour laws etc for a free trade deal benchmarked by Vietnam?

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Smithee
11 minutes ago, jake said:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/11/04/joint-ngo-letter-eu-vietnam-free-trade-agreement

 

I dont get it.

The EU asking its parliament to ratify a free trade deal in the face of opposition .

Yet the UK comparitively is far advanced regarding labour laws etc.

 

But everyone's screaming how we cant get one.

 

 

 

The EU has to put itself first now and there's no chance that they'll allow their members to see that leaving will put you in a strong position, that you'll be able to get what you want and get a deal that gives you privileges like those that remain and commit to the future.

 

We can't get a good deal, for the EU's own good.

 

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jake
25 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The EU has to put itself first now and there's no chance that they'll allow their members to see that leaving will put you in a strong position, that you'll be able to get what you want and get a deal that gives you privileges like those that remain and commit to the future.

 

We can't get a good deal, for the EU's own good.

 

So they are being punitive ?

 

Fair enough .

Hope this ends all the talk about it being a vanguard of workers rights.

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Smithee
40 minutes ago, jake said:

So they are being punitive ?

 

Fair enough .

Hope this ends all the talk about it being a vanguard of workers rights.

 

It doesn't matter how outraged you are, that's reality. We'll be worse off by leaving, we cant expect to give up our Costco card and still get great deals on crates of beer.

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jake
19 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It doesn't matter how outraged you are, that's reality. We'll be worse off by leaving, we cant expect to give up our Costco card and still get great deals on crates of beer.

I'm not outraged.

 

The reality is that all the bullshit talk about the EU being a bullwork against bad labour practices and maintaining  certain standards is just that.

Bullshit.

 

 

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Smithee
1 minute ago, jake said:

I'm not outraged.

 

The reality is that all the bullshit talk about the EU being a bullwork against bad labour practices and maintaining  certain standards is just that.

Bullshit.

 

 

Sound, but you were saying that people think britain won't get a free trade deal - there's very good reason to think that. 

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jake
3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Sound, but you were saying that people think britain won't get a free trade deal - there's very good reason to think that. 

People often post about how the UK is racing to the bottom.

How leaving the EU will lessen workers rights etc .

Smithee the EU and its policies are Tory .

It amazes me how anyone of a left leaning perspective can be for it.

And it just doesnt wash change within 

 

 

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Smithee
4 minutes ago, jake said:

People often post about how the UK is racing to the bottom.

How leaving the EU will lessen workers rights etc .

Smithee the EU and its policies are Tory .

It amazes me how anyone of a left leaning perspective can be for it.

And it just doesnt wash change within 

 

 

 

Time will tell if British workers end up with more, less, or the same level of rights as now

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jake
43 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Time will tell if British workers end up with more, less, or the same level of rights as now

Smithee.

If we remain part of the UK it's up to us to vote for the party that will deliver that.

If they dont it's up to us to force that change.

The rights of workers in this country were not delivered in the main by the EU.

But by workers organising through trade unions.

 

If we are as it seems not so keen on trade unions then market forces dictate the worth of a worker.

Right now a workers worth in the UK is better than that of most EU countries otherwise the migrant workers would not have came here in numbers to work.

 

It's not freedom of movement its necessity .

Who the fek wants to move to English cities as a swap for Mediterranean climes for shitpence an hour?

 

The desperate that's who.

The EU and its policies are centre right always have been always will be.

Austerity strict .

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Pans Jambo

Can we just close this thread on the following basis:

 

December 31st 2020.

UK has a Zero agreed deal on the future trading relationship with the EU - WTO rules.

Hard border starts in Ireland.

NHS goes to trump.

All UK workers rights eroded back to the Victorian age. 

Boris agrees to build a tunnel to Scandanavia.

All the SNP's fault.

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Mikey1874

Another strong indication Boris Johnson favours No Deal or 'Australia' as they now call it.

 

The sacking of Julian Smith as N.Ireland secretary. If his replacement is someone who falls in line on Brexit strategy given the importance of N.Ireland. 

Edited by Mikey1874

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jambo89
On 11/02/2020 at 23:27, jake said:

Smithee.

If we remain part of the UK it's up to us to vote for the party that will deliver that.

If they dont it's up to us to force that change.

The rights of workers in this country were not delivered in the main by the EU.

But by workers organising through trade unions.

 

If we are as it seems not so keen on trade unions then market forces dictate the worth of a worker.

Right now a workers worth in the UK is better than that of most EU countries otherwise the migrant workers would not have came here in numbers to work.

 

It's not freedom of movement its necessity .

Who the fek wants to move to English cities as a swap for Mediterranean climes for shitpence an hour?

 

The desperate that's who.

The EU and its policies are centre right always have been always will be.

Austerity strict .


love this! 
 

People seemingly (or wilfully) forget it was the trade unions in the UK that gave us the 5 day working week, maternity pay, lunch breaks, holiday pay etc. etc. And not the EU

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Bridge of Djoum

I'm still waiting on a coherent answer as to why anyone voted for Brexit. There must be a few on here, anyone care to step up?

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redjambo
2 hours ago, jambo89 said:


love this! 
 

People seemingly (or wilfully) forget it was the trade unions in the UK that gave us the 5 day working week, maternity pay, lunch breaks, holiday pay etc. etc. And not the EU

 

Before the EU Working Time Directive was introduced, 2 million British employees did not receive any paid holiday at all. The change in EU law meant that all employers were forced to offer it for the first time. It gave EU workers the right to at least 4 weeks in paid holidays each year, rest breaks, and rest of at least 11 hours in any 24 hours. It also restricted  excessive night work, gave a day off after a week's work, and provided for a right to work no more than 48 hours per week.The UK opposed its introduction, Employment Secretary David Hunt stating "The UK strongly opposes any attempt to tell people that they can no longer work the hours they want." (Aye right, what he really meant was "The UK strongly opposes any attempt to interfere in companies' abilities to take advantage of their workers to their detriment".)

 

The trade unions aren't in the driving seat, jambo89, the employers are.

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Space Mackerel

So where do all these mega rich Tory voting  British tax exiles bank? 
 

Nothing to see here. 
 

 

Edited by Space Mackerel

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RobboM
28 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

So where do all these mega rich Tory voting  British tax exiles bank? 
 

Nothing to see here. 
 

 

I'm sure completely unconnected (from today's re-shuffle) 😂

Geoffrey Cox
The attorney general with a booming voice and loquacious manner has been relieved of his position. No 10 sources had briefed that he fell out of favour after being condescending in cabinet and was not considered a “team player”. He will not go short of employment, as before taking the job under May he had a lucrative career as a barrister. Formerly the highest-earning MP, he has acted for companies based in the Cayman Islands and attacked plans for tax havens to be subject to more scrutiny. His most controversial act in government was to refuse to give legal advice saying May’s Brexit deal allowed the UK to exit the Northern Irish backstop. He is also said to have threatened to resign if Johnson had not agreed to write to the EU for an extension to article 50 in the autumn. However, he appears to be still hoping for a government-related role in charge of No 10’s review of the judiciary.

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jambo89
1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

Before the EU Working Time Directive was introduced, 2 million British employees did not receive any paid holiday at all. The change in EU law meant that all employers were forced to offer it for the first time. It gave EU workers the right to at least 4 weeks in paid holidays each year, rest breaks, and rest of at least 11 hours in any 24 hours. It also restricted  excessive night work, gave a day off after a week's work, and provided for a right to work no more than 48 hours per week.The UK opposed its introduction, Employment Secretary David Hunt stating "The UK strongly opposes any attempt to tell people that they can no longer work the hours they want." (Aye right, what he really meant was "The UK strongly opposes any attempt to interfere in companies' abilities to take advantage of their workers to their detriment".)

 

The trade unions aren't in the driving seat, jambo89, the employers are.


The working time directive is a load of pish! 
 

“Here, sign this bit of paper so you can work over 48 hours per week”.

 

If the EU was so strongly in favour of this, they would have made it mandatory and write in to law that any worker doing over this time should be compensated appropriately (i.e. Time and a half) and not allow employers / employees to opt out.
 

But of course that would effect business which the EU prioritise over workers rights (as evidenced by the Laval and Viking rulings).

 

It is pure nonsense to suggest the EU is a paradigm of workers rights (especially to suggest that the EU did more than the unions in that respect).  

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Smithee
1 hour ago, jambo89 said:


The working time directive is a load of pish! 
 

“Here, sign this bit of paper so you can work over 48 hours per week”.

 

If the EU was so strongly in favour of this, they would have made it mandatory and write in to law that any worker doing over this time should be compensated appropriately (i.e. Time and a half) and not allow employers / employees to opt out.
 

But of course that would effect business which the EU prioritise over workers rights (as evidenced by the Laval and Viking rulings).

 

It is pure nonsense to suggest the EU is a paradigm of workers rights (especially to suggest that the EU did more than the unions in that respect).  

 

Is there a reason you're attacking the EU over this but letting the UK government off the hook for doing exactly the same thing and only going as far as the EU forced them to?

 

BTW despite you and Jake's protestations, literally no one on here is claiming the EU is a bastion of workers' rights, so let's just put that strawman away shall we?

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jambo89
28 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Is there a reason you're attacking the EU over this but letting the UK government off the hook for doing exactly the same thing and only going as far as the EU forced them to?

 

BTW despite you and Jake's protestations, literally no one on here is claiming the EU is a bastion of workers' rights, so let's just put that strawman away shall we?


Think you might want to read the post I quoted again. If that is not championing the EU ‘s record on workers rights then I don’t know what is. So have no idea where you’re getting the strawman argument from. 

 

This thread has turned in to the pros and cons of the EU / leaving / remain. If discussion of workers rights are classed as strawman then there’s not much else that wouldn’t be.
 

As for the 1st part of your post, perhaps I’m mistaken but thought this was an EU thread? Why would I talk about the tories attitude to workers rights on here!?

 

There’s enough of that crap on other threads especially from the unionists. The amount of  whataboutery is unreal.

 

But since you asked, the tories erosion of workers rights has been a disgrace ( and was in no way arrested by being a member of the EU I might add) with the rule change on strike action ballot turnout and introduction of extended period (from 1 year under labour to 2 years now) whereby an employer can sack a worker without cause.

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redjambo
2 hours ago, jambo89 said:


The working time directive is a load of pish! 
 

“Here, sign this bit of paper so you can work over 48 hours per week”.

 

If the EU was so strongly in favour of this, they would have made it mandatory and write in to law that any worker doing over this time should be compensated appropriately (i.e. Time and a half) and not allow employers / employees to opt out.
 

But of course that would effect business which the EU prioritise over workers rights (as evidenced by the Laval and Viking rulings).

 

It is pure nonsense to suggest the EU is a paradigm of workers rights (especially to suggest that the EU did more than the unions in that respect).  

 

And I never said that. At all.

 

You said that the EU did not give us holiday pay. I countered that by showing that for 2 million Brits they did. I imagine that you weren't one of the 2 million who benefited which is why you couldn't give a shit about it.

 

You seem to be an angry person with an agenda, unwilling to believe that the EU did have some positive effect on workers' rights. Granted, it is one of the least of their legacies, but it is not as non-existent as you would like to claim.

 

 

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Smithee
2 hours ago, jambo89 said:


Think you might want to read the post I quoted again. If that is not championing the EU ‘s record on workers rights then I don’t know what is. So have no idea where you’re getting the strawman argument from. 

 

This thread has turned in to the pros and cons of the EU / leaving / remain. If discussion of workers rights are classed as strawman then there’s not much else that wouldn’t be.
 

As for the 1st part of your post, perhaps I’m mistaken but thought this was an EU thread? Why would I talk about the tories attitude to workers rights on here!?

 

There’s enough of that crap on other threads especially from the unionists. The amount of  whataboutery is unreal.

 

But since you asked, the tories erosion of workers rights has been a disgrace ( and was in no way arrested by being a member of the EU I might add) with the rule change on strike action ballot turnout and introduction of extended period (from 1 year under labour to 2 years now) whereby an employer can sack a worker without cause.

 

It's very simple, the uk government is responsible for workers' rights in the uk, always has been.

The EU set minimum standards, which the uk dragged itself up to, but it's free to exceed these any time.

 

The fact that it hasn't done that isn't something to attack the EU over.

 

Also, saying that  the EU has done a,b and c is not the same as championing the EU as a "paradigm of workers rights" - there's your straw man right there, no one's said that but here you are arguing against it.

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Mikey1874

The new EU map

 

 

IMG_20200214_105052.jpg

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Cade

I do keep wishing Norway would join, if only to stop Finland and Sweden looking like a giant cock'n'baws

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dobmisterdobster

Norway and Switzerland are both incredibly wealthy and would gain nothing from joining.

Voters in both countries have rejected membership multiple times.

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Boris
55 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Norway and Switzerland are both incredibly wealthy and would gain nothing from joining.

Voters in both countries have rejected membership multiple times.

 

Yet they both have single market access.  Something the UK will not have.

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Cade
1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Norway and Switzerland are both incredibly wealthy and would gain nothing from joining.

Voters in both countries have rejected membership multiple times.

Norway is in the EEA and EFTA.

It is subject to about 20%-ish of all EU laws.

70% of EU directives are in force.

17% of EU regulations are in force.

 

Switzerland is also in EFTA.

And the Schengen Area.

Switzerland is also an infamous tax haven which is why it rejects formal membership.

 

Both have free trade agreements including free movement of people and are EU rule takers.

Edited by Cade

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Justin Z
2 hours ago, Cade said:

Norway is in the EEA and EFTA.

It is subject to about 20%-ish of all EU laws.

70% of EU directives are in force.

17% of EU regulations are in force.

 

Switzerland is also in EFTA.

And the Schengen Area.

Switzerland is also an infamous tax haven which is why it rejects formal membership.

 

Both have free trade agreements including free movement of people and are EU rule takers.

 

Things you can do when you don't have contradictory red lines as a starting point for negotiations. emot-frog.gif

 

 

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Smithee
3 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Norway and Switzerland are both incredibly wealthy and would gain nothing from joining.

Voters in both countries have rejected membership multiple times.

Norway rejected applying in one referendum, not VERY multiple.

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Cade

Mh4vv0m.jpg

 

Little Britain nae pals.

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JustinT
On 13/02/2020 at 15:02, Bridge of Djoum said:

I'm still waiting on a coherent answer as to why anyone voted for Brexit. There must be a few on here, anyone care to step up?

No to a surpreme European Army was a starter for ten. Taking back control of who fishes in our waters was another big one for me among many other reasons for voting to leave the ever integrating EU and ECHR.

Edited by JustinT

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Cade
45 minutes ago, JustinT said:

No to a surpreme European Army was a starter for ten. Taking back control of who fishes in our waters was another big one for me among many other reasons for voting to leave the ever integrating EU and ECHR.

Not going to happen.

Do keep up.

We need banking access to the EU far more than we need fish.

That'll be a done deal. Banks for fish.

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dobmisterdobster
1 hour ago, Cade said:

Mh4vv0m.jpg

 

Little Britain nae pals.

We haven't left the Council of Europe (not to be confused with the European Council which is something else)

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redjambo
46 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

We haven't left the Council of Europe (not to be confused with the European Council which is something else)

 

True, we should be there beside Armenia.

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JustinT
50 minutes ago, Cade said:

Not going to happen.

Do keep up.

We need banking access to the EU far more than we need fish.

That'll be a done deal. Banks for fish.

Certainly there's across the board deals to be done or not as the case may be. We're in a strong position to negotiate post Brexit and I'm very confident we'll increase our own fishermen's fishing quotas whatever happens. Delighted that we left an EU that's heading in the wrong direction of ever increasing integration that will eventually all but dissolve national governments. 

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Smithee
3 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

EU came into being in 1993 when the maastricht treaty was signed, Norway's had one referendum about joining the EU, Switzerland 2.

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Cade

Council of Europe enforces the ECHR.

Which the UK wants to leave.

 

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redjambo
55 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

EU came into being in 1993 when the maastricht treaty was signed, Norway's had one referendum about joining the EU, Switzerland 2.

 

That's nit-picking, Smithee, and unlike you if you don't mind me saying so. ;)

 

The EU is simply a continuation of the EC. We usually refer to the EU now as referring to the entity throughout its existence - despite the inaccuracy of the term, it simplifies things. If we have to specify "in its guise as the EC" or "in its guise as the EU" every time we talk about the EC or EU, we'll be here forever formulating what we say about it.

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jake
On 13/02/2020 at 15:02, Bridge of Djoum said:

I'm still waiting on a coherent answer as to why anyone voted for Brexit. There must be a few on here, anyone care to step up?

I've given my reasons many times.

 

Too many

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Smithee
2 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

That's nit-picking, Smithee, and unlike you if you don't mind me saying so. ;)

 

The EU is simply a continuation of the EC. We usually refer to the EU now as referring to the entity throughout its existence - despite the inaccuracy of the term, it simplifies things. If we have to specify "in its guise as the EC" or "in its guise as the EU" every time we talk about the EC or EU, we'll be here forever formulating what we say about it.

 

I know what you're saying but I dont agree mate, the EU may have been the next thing along the line but it's a distinct entity that was very very different in 1993 compared to what was in place 20 years earlier - I remember buying duty free on ferries in the intervening decades for example.

 

I'm anal AF about details by the way! To such an extent I know the Dutch term for nit-picking through being called an ant ****er in public :laugh2:

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Zlatanable
4 hours ago, Cade said:

Council of Europe enforces the ECHR.

Which the UK wants to leave.

 

Which the UK voted to leave, not wants to leave. 

 

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ri Alban
8 hours ago, JustinT said:

No to a surpreme European Army was a starter for ten. Taking back control of who fishes in our waters was another big one for me among many other reasons for voting to leave the ever integrating EU and ECHR.

And give them straight back to The EU or England. 👍

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redjambo
6 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I know what you're saying but I dont agree mate, the EU may have been the next thing along the line but it's a distinct entity that was very very different in 1993 compared to what was in place 20 years earlier - I remember buying duty free on ferries in the intervening decades for example.

 

I'm anal AF about details by the way! To such an extent I know the Dutch term for nit-picking through being called an ant ****er in public :laugh2:

 

:biggrin2: If I need any nits picked, I'll know where to come!

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