Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[RobboM]

20 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm not so sure about that, but I'm getting a niggling feeling that society is starting to get "broken". Perhaps I'm just getting old.

I certainly get the feeling we are being played. Tactics and strategies honed for emotional responses and division rather than intellectual persuasion and consensus. If you want to feel even worse about the propects for our broken politics take a look at The Great Hack documentary.

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, RobboM said:

I certainly get the feeling we are being played. Tactics and strategies honed for emotional responses and division rather than intellectual persuasion and consensus. If you want to feel even worse about the propects for our broken politics take a look at The Great Hack documentary.

 

We are certainly being played by both sides of the Brexit and Indy debates which will draw out the scumbags in society, sadly.

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

Whatever the result in the election, I think this shitshow is evidence that we need a law to give the government the power to call a general election if they lose their majority rather than allow this limbo to go on indefinitely.

 

I said at the time the Fixed Term Parliament Act would bite them on the bum. 

 

Tories brought it in.

 

And by the way it means every General Election would have to be held in December from now on. (Not that that is very likely).

Edited October 24, 2019 by Mikey1874

[shaun.lawson]

30 minutes ago, Victorian said:

There are some proper psychos around but I don't buy into those figures for a second.    That's not a true representation.     Think about it.     It's absolutely abnormal to consider or justify physical violence against others.   Those figures are impossible.     Go into a large office building containing 1000 workers and set them the same polling questions.     Would you see even a quarter of those numbers?    No.

 

There is nothing 'normal' about anything that's happened in British politics over the last decade. The UN does not publicly condemn - twice! - 'normal' countries. And normal countries do not respond to being publicly condemned - twice! - by the UN by ignoring the evidence and carrying on the same as before.

 

This is classic frog in the boiling pot stuff. The people living in the country day to day don't notice how all sorts of horrific, monstrous things, unthinkable a decade ago, have been totally normalised now. "It can't be happening. This is Britain". It is happening in Britain... and before Francis pops up, many other places too. Fascism never loudly announces itself. It just creeps up... and creeps up... and before everyone knows it, not only is it too late, but most people have become fascists. 

[shaun.lawson]

51 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm not so sure about that, but I'm getting a niggling feeling that society is starting to get "broken". Perhaps I'm just getting old.

 

It is. The reason for that is twofold, and inextricably linked:

 

1. Democracy only works when progress occurs. Doesn't have to be dramatic progress; just a little, from one generation to the next. Under neoliberalism, especially post-2008 (but the problems had only been stored up until then), each generation is now poorer than the previous one. Capitalism does not work when most people have no access to capital.

 

2. Democracy only works when society is treated by the same rules... or at least, feels as though it is. In Britain, and growing numbers of Western countries, the old are massively wealthier than the young and outnumber the young: meaning their interests are prioritised. And older people tend to be more reactionary, even angry, in outlook. Liars and criminals, meanwhile, don't just get off if they're rich and powerful. Their narcissism is actively celebrated and encouraged. Little thief goes to jail; big thief becomes Prime Minister.

 

So we don't just have growing class conflict (with class war being waged by the Tories as never before - because at least there was the right to buy assuaging many in the 1980s). We also have intergenerational conflict and a culture clash between two groups who inhabit the same island, but increasingly have nothing in common with each other. Open/closed. Socially liberal/socially conservative. Internationalist/nationalist. Those who mix with others from all over the world every day; those who only mix with people who look like them and sound like them every day.

 

The internet does much of the rest: social media should actually be called antisocial media, because its modus operandi is anger and confrontation. Played on by all sorts of bad faith actors who've been taught that under this system, the only thing that matters is profit. Nothing else. No morality, no ethics, no thinking of the longer term and especially no thinking about young people and their futures. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

There is nothing 'normal' about anything that's happened in British politics over the last decade. The UN does not publicly condemn - twice! - 'normal' countries. And normal countries do not respond to being publicly condemned - twice! - by the UN by ignoring the evidence and carrying on the same as before.

 

This is classic frog in the boiling pot stuff. The people living in the country day to day don't notice how all sorts of horrific, monstrous things, unthinkable a decade ago, have been totally normalised now. "It can't be happening. This is Britain". It is happening in Britain... and before Francis pops up, many other places too. Fascism never loudly announces itself. It just creeps up... and creeps up... and before everyone knows it, not only is it too late, but most people have become fascists. 

 

Many people have become more overtly anti-social and dishonest,  although I would always tend to believe that these are traits that already existed.     Further,   these are basic traits that are much,  much more widespread than society would rather admit to.     Brexit and the political normalisation of unchallenged dishonesty has injected pure oxygen into the fire of inter-personal contempt.

 

Physical violence is another matter.    It is markedly abnormal for people to participate in or genuinely consider it.    Even when threatened or harmed.     If people are providing positive responses to these questions then I am very confident that the responses are examples of peoples' anti-social tendancies and/or dishonesty,   rather than genuinely specific to the premise.

 

***** are full of shit.

[Victorian]

Nigel Evans head would look great being fed through a mangle.

[jack D and coke]

55 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Guy I know went to school with Murphy, says he was an utter prick back then too.

 
 

[Victorian]

Funny how Kirsty Wark seemed keen to point out that Labour don't know whether they want a December 12 election... but seemed much less keen to point out whether or not Johnson wants a December 12 election.

 

Maybe the Newsnight team trust the PM at his word.    Maybe it's something else.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Victorian

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

I’ve heard a few politicians say, recently, that it was a mistake to change the law to the current arrangement. It was done to prevent a government calling an election very early, whilst popular, with the sole intention of giving themselves a good chance of extending their time in power.

This has worked the other way round, where a government that thinks it could remove the shackles of a hung parliament, cannot call an election because the opposition have reasons not to want to have one.

Having said that, if the opposition benches trusted Johnson and Cummings to not use the election gap in parliament to allow the UK to leave the EU without a deal, they would probably have agreed to it by now.

Just one thing Theresa May. See held an election with a big majority and blew it. 

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

No surprise whatsoever, but boy oh boy.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

 

"Most leave voters who took part... thought violence towards MPs was a “price worth paying” for Brexit to be delivered – 71% in England, 60% in Scotland and 70% in Wales...

 

The majority of remain voters felt that potential violence was worth it if it meant we would stay in the EU – 58% in England, 53% in Scotland and 56% in Wales...

 

Most people who responded to the survey also thought that violence towards MPs and violent protests in which people are “badly injured” were likely to occur if and when Brexit happens...

 

Many were also willing to see the union change substantially if it meant they would get their own way on Brexit. Among leave voters, 74% in England, the same percentage in Wales and 59% in Scotland believed the breakup of the UK would be worth it to take back control through delivering Brexit..."

What's wrong with brexiters? Probably the same folk who agree with attacks on XR protesters.

I'd give them no deal Brexit and watch on in glee, as Karma comes home.(Yes, my job is worth it, just watch the UK burn)

Edited October 25, 2019 by ri Alban

[Captain Sausage]

7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

And older people tend to be more reactionary, even angry, in outlook.

Source pls. 

 

7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

Fascism never loudly announces itself. It just creeps up... and creeps up... and before everyone knows it, not only is it too late, but most people have become fascists. 

Sorry, just to be clear - I’m sure I’ve misunderstood you. You are not calling Britain - and many other places’ a majority fascist country? Are you?

[DETTY29]

12 hours ago, Barack said:

Nativity plays are shite. Bin them. The kids have all Christmas Day to get over it.

 

 

We've got half a few home games before Christmas to boo like 6 year olds.

[Cade]

"I WANT AN ELECTION! LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE!"

 

So, can we have a 2nd EU referendum?

 

"NO, HOW DARE YOU THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKUN"

 

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

"I WANT AN ELECTION! LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE!"

 

So, can we have a 2nd EU referendum?

 

"NO, HOW DARE YOU THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKUN"

 

 

Be careful what you wish for as you will set a precedence for any indy 2 referendum also needing a confirmatory second referendum on the severance deal.

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Be careful what you wish for as you will set a precedence for any indy 2 referendum also needing a confirmatory second referendum on the severance deal.

 

Good. After everything we've seen why would that  be a bogey man?

[Ron Burgundy]

12 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Be careful what you wish for as you will set a precedence for any indy 2 referendum also needing a confirmatory second referendum on the severance deal.

Correct and when the hard border is announced and the groat identified as the currency people may well have a different opinion.

 

[Mikey1874]

That No Confidence motion might be closer 

 

 

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Good. After everything we've seen why would that  be a bogey man?

 

Exactly. The Brexit referendum can be seen as a "dry run" and a "masterclass in what not to ****ing do".

[frankblack]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Good. After everything we've seen why would that  be a bogey man?

 

6 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Exactly. The Brexit referendum can be seen as a "dry run" and a "masterclass in what not to ****ing do".

 

A lot hinges on the deal negotiated with Westminster and implications such as currency, hard border with England, share of national debt, trade deal with rest of the UK, ....

 

Present a shitty indy deal to public vote and indy would be over for the foreseeable future.

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

A lot hinges on the deal negotiated with Westminster and implications such as currency, hard border with England, share of national debt, trade deal with rest of the UK, ....

 

Present a shitty indy deal to public vote and indy would be over for the foreseeable future.

 

It does, and I don't think anyone who honestly believes an independent Scotland would be better off in the immediate to near-future would have a problem with any of that.

[Unknown user]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

 

A lot hinges on the deal negotiated with Westminster and implications such as currency, hard border with England, share of national debt, trade deal with rest of the UK, ....

 

Present a shitty indy deal to public vote and indy would be over for the foreseeable future.

 

I understand the concept, but you're waving it around like it's a loaded weapon to be feared. 

Its democratic to do it that way, of course that's how it should be done.

[jamboy1982]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

A lot hinges on the deal negotiated with Westminster and implications such as currency, hard border with England, share of national debt, trade deal with rest of the UK, ....

 

Present a shitty indy deal to public vote and indy would be over for the foreseeable future.

And share of national assets. You forgot to mention that alongside national debt 

[SE16 3LN]

55 minutes ago, jamboy1982 said:

And share of national assets. You forgot to mention that alongside national debt 

Struggling to think of any

[Costanza]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

That No Confidence motion might be closer 

 

 

This from the man who said leaving the single market was a bad idea and voted against Theresa May's Withdrawal Deal.

The man is a grade A hypocritical ****.

 

[Mikey1874]

EU may wait till after Monday to see if election is going ahead before advising re extension. 

 

Which means election won't go ahead.

[hughesie27]

14 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

EU may wait till after Monday to see if election is going ahead before advising re extension. 

 

Which means election won't go ahead.

Cock blocks

[jack D and coke]

52 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Struggling to think of any

When partnerships break up in your world does someone walk away with the lot and saddle the other with a load of debt aye? 
No assets?

No debt. 
Cheers. 

[Justin Z]

8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

When partnerships break up in your world does someone walk away with the lot and saddle the other with a load of debt aye? 
No assets?

No debt. 
Cheers. 

 

I read it as a bit of self-effacing humour to be fair

[Don Dan]

EU delaying decision of extension till next week. Enjoy your weekend😂

[jack D and coke]

16 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I read it as a bit of self-effacing humour to be fair

Fair enough  

Never sure with some posters. 

[SE16 3LN]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

When partnerships break up in your world does someone walk away with the lot and saddle the other with a load of debt aye? 
No assets?

No debt. 
Cheers. 

All debt in my experience. I thought the reason for leaving the UK was its out of date, bankrupt position, not fit for purpose and living in the past millennium.

Edited October 25, 2019 by SE16 3LN
Mistake

[jack D and coke]

5 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

All debt in my experience. I thought the reason for leaving the UK was its out of date, bankrupt position, not fit for purpose and living in the past millennium.

Ok so imagine Scotland is your ex wife😉

[SE16 3LN]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Ok so imagine Scotland is your ex wife😉

 Dead?

[New Guy]

15 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I don't agree with your argument.  I think Corbyn and co are running scared because they are unelectable, so want to try and pull the strings on a puppet government.

I agree the election will strengthen Boris, he’s going up in popularity and Corbyn knows it.

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

 Dead?

Congratulations or commiserations, whatever bud. 

[SE16 3LN]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Congratulations or commiserations, whatever bud. 

It was a long time ago 😐

[kila]

 

 

[Don Dan]

Difficulties with healthcare in various EU countries now beginning to surface if there is no deal. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-belgium?utm_source=00b25728-9db5-4204-a112-3ae75139572e&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-croatia?utm_source=f3e73336-be0c-49fd-a113-4ca6716b9178&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-slovakia?utm_source=eda051c6-e079-48ff-afb6-e40e4753ea63&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain#healthcare

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-bulgaria?utm_source=1fd081b7-86de-48c0-987c-2a6ece754b5c&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Edited October 25, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[kingantti1874]

Honest question: if government strike as they have threatened- wouldn’t the opposition be able to vote through bill unchallenged? 

[sadj]

5 hours ago, kila said:

 

 

😂 

[RobboM]

12 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Honest question: if government strike as they have threatened- wouldn’t the opposition be able to vote through bill unchallenged? 

The opposition did that to vote through the Benn Act by taking control of the order paper for the next day but I doubt they could do so for this, Besides Boris would rather be dead in a ditch than let this happen

[Mikey1874]

23 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Honest question: if government strike as they have threatened- wouldn’t the opposition be able to vote through bill unchallenged? 

 

Be a vote of no confidence.

 

Then either a Coalition Government or an election.

 

But opposition could just let them stew.

[Mikey1874]

8 minutes ago, RobboM said:

The opposition did that to vote through the Benn Act by taking control of the order paper for the next day but I doubt they could do so for this, Besides Boris would rather be dead in a ditch than let this happen

 

Nice challenge for the new Speaker. 

[Don Dan]

5 hours ago, Dannie Boy said:

Difficulties with healthcare in various EU countries now beginning to surface if there is no deal. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-belgium?utm_source=00b25728-9db5-4204-a112-3ae75139572e&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-croatia?utm_source=f3e73336-be0c-49fd-a113-4ca6716b9178&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-slovakia?utm_source=eda051c6-e079-48ff-afb6-e40e4753ea63&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain#healthcare

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-bulgaria?utm_source=1fd081b7-86de-48c0-987c-2a6ece754b5c&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

 

all 27 countries healthcare advice now available in the event of a no deal. Not all are the same! 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[Don Dan]

Leader Jeremy Corbyn said he was only prepared to agree to an election once the PM had completely ruled out "to my satisfaction" the possibility of a no-deal Brexit.
"My position is we've got to get no-deal taken off the table first," he told ITV's This Morning programme. 
"Providing the prime minister comes to Parliament on Monday and makes it absolutely clear he is going to make sure that there is no crash out - because his deal includes the possibility of a no-deal exit... if he comes on Monday and says that, then OK," he added.

 

No one can guarantee there will be no deal. 

[Captain Sausage]

All this talk of ‘letting the government stew’ - what is the ****ing point. 
 

It helps absolutely nobody for us to in this situation. If you are doing it because you are worried you’re going to lose an election heavily...have some ****ing introversion and change your policies. Win the election. If you don’t back yourself, and instead facilitate the current car crash of a parliament, you are as big a problem as the buffoon in charge of the bus at the moment. 

[AlimOzturk]

22 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Leader Jeremy Corbyn said he was only prepared to agree to an election once the PM had completely ruled out "to my satisfaction" the possibility of a no-deal Brexit.
"My position is we've got to get no-deal taken off the table first," he told ITV's This Morning programme. 
"Providing the prime minister comes to Parliament on Monday and makes it absolutely clear he is going to make sure that there is no crash out - because his deal includes the possibility of a no-deal exit... if he comes on Monday and says that, then OK," he added.

 

No one can guarantee there will be no deal. 

 

Yes they can. Vote through legislation which states that the UK cannot leave the EU without a deal and if no deal can be reached we remain in the EU until we can. 

[dobmisterdobster]

Any meaningful delay will require an election.

Otherwise we could be turfed out in November.

[dobmisterdobster]

39 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

Yes they can. Vote through legislation which states that the UK cannot leave the EU without a deal and if no deal can be reached we remain in the EU until we can. 

That would be Parliament binding its successors.

 

This ragtag band of Independents, retiring MPs, hard-line remainers, Scottish and Welsh nationalists, Jeremy Corbyn and his entourage have to accept that as a group they are not going to decide our country's future.