Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[The Mighty Thor]

24 minutes ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

I hope you enjoy chewing on shit if he pulls it off.

He "pulls it off" after all his no deal bullshit then he's a dead duck and the Tories are finished. 

He's painting himself into a corner and Merkel handed a bigger brush today. 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

He "pulls it off" after all his no deal bullshit then he's a dead duck and the Tories are finished. 

He's painting himself into a corner and Merkel handed a bigger brush today. 

 

Hopefully you’re right.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

He "pulls it off" after all his no deal bullshit then he's a dead duck and the Tories are finished. 

He's painting himself into a corner and Merkel handed a bigger brush today. 

 

 

You keep that brush to clean the shit off your teeth when you're proved wrong.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

You keep that brush to clean the shit off your teeth when you're proved wrong.

You post some shite.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

11 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

You post some shite.

 

You keep reading it.

 

Where's your wee laughing man? Thats usually the extent of your contributions.

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

You keep reading it.

 

Where's your wee laughing man? Thats usually the extent of your contributions.

Aw, yer tears and snorters are going to be very delightful to watch, post indy. A leave voting naw voter who supports Boris and Trump. You must be very lonely.

 

How was yer sponsored walks last month?

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

You keep reading it.

 

Where's your wee laughing man? Thats usually the extent of your contributions.

Oh, btw, your kind won't be tolerated in an Independent Scotland.

[The Mighty Thor]

9 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

You keep that brush to clean the shit off your teeth when you're proved wrong.

Oh I've got no worries on that score.

He's got no intention of striking a deal. It's a dog and pony show for the tabloids. The real money is to be made by crashing the UK out on 31/10.

 

Stick to the pish SNP bad trolling on the other thread cos you're making a tit of yourself here. 

[Pans Jambo]

54 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Oh I've got no worries on that score.

He's got no intention of striking a deal. It's a dog and pony show for the tabloids. The real money is to be made by crashing the UK out on 31/10.

 

Stick to the pish SNP bad trolling on the other thread cos you're making a tit of yourself here. 

Not much better over there either TBH 

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

You keep reading it.

 

Where's your wee laughing man? Thats usually the extent of your contributions.

[doctor jambo]

On ‎21‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 00:06, ri Alban said:

It would be quite funny if the UK struck a trade deal with Turkey with freedom of movement. India and Pakistan even more. Nigel would shit himself.

I have discussed this with my kids.

We need immigration.

What Brexit will do is replace white European immigrant labour, with black Asian/African/Indian labour.

Which is the polar opposite of the outcome desired by many.

Until there is mature debate about our need for immigration ( in the west the population is barely growing at all!) then people will continue to deny the need for immigration expansion.

There should be a cross party group to discuss this with urgency and come to agreement to take immigration OFF the table in elections

[scott herbertson]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

I have discussed this with my kids.

We need immigration.

What Brexit will do is replace white European immigrant labour, with black Asian/African/Indian labour.

Which is the polar opposite of the outcome desired by many.

Until there is mature debate about our need for immigration ( in the west the population is barely growing at all!) then people will continue to deny the need for immigration expansion.

There should be a cross party group to discuss this with urgency and come to agreement to take immigration OFF the table in elections

 

 

Definitely needs a mature discussion, but like legalisation of drugs or capital punishment or fair taxation, no politician will say what they think for fear they will be vilified in the press.

 

while I agree we need immigration I am not convinced we can sustain a larger population so I would prefer to see a balance that maintains or reduces the population, based on skills requirements ( including agricultural labour and nurses for example)

 

i agree a no deal Brexit will see lower European immigration. It will also see more wealthy “Irish” brexiteer retirees relocating to the nicer parts of Europe where they can enjoy their huge isa share portfolios dividends tax free.

 

i think new immigration is most likely to come from the Far East and India and to be wealthier people as more visas will be a key negotiating request from these countries in exchange for favourable trade deals.

[Victorian]

The Tories have done a very good job of brainwashing large swathes of the electorate into the belief that Brexit must be concluded by Oct 31.     There has been a 'mission creep' of opinion from one of avoiding a damaging no deal at all costs to one of avoiding further delay at all costs.     People have heard this so much and so often that they become convinced that further delay is worse than self inflicted chaos and trauma.    The Tories also know that the electorate is stupid enough to buy into the coming triumphant fanfare of victory when we crash out.     The next battle ground will be the pass-the-parcel of blame.     Do not rule out the Tories being able to manipulate public opinion in that regard.

[doctor jambo]

52 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The Tories have done a very good job of brainwashing large swathes of the electorate into the belief that Brexit must be concluded by Oct 31.     There has been a 'mission creep' of opinion from one of avoiding a damaging no deal at all costs to one of avoiding further delay at all costs.     People have heard this so much and so often that they become convinced that further delay is worse than self inflicted chaos and trauma.    The Tories also know that the electorate is stupid enough to buy into the coming triumphant fanfare of victory when we crash out.     The next battle ground will be the pass-the-parcel of blame.     Do not rule out the Tories being able to manipulate public opinion in that regard.

All are liable in this.

Labour have been utterly ridiculous over this, it is their weakness , not tory strength that has done this.

May lost her majority , then Labour fumbled the ball- Corbyn could have tried to poach support at that point- but didn't.

I still have not the faintest **** what Labour are position wise  on Brexit.

[Boris]

8 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

 

I still have not the faintest **** what Labour are position wise  on Brexit.

 

Much like the shadow cabinet!

[doctor jambo]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Much like the shadow cabinet!

They really are shoddy.

I would vote for a moderate labour leader with  a clear vision on Brexit- and that is something I would never have said before.

there must be many out there like me

Corbyn says one thing then his cabinet immediately say something else

[Boris]

Just now, doctor jambo said:

They really are shoddy.

I would vote for a moderate labour leader with  a clear vision on Brexit- and that is something I would never have said before.

there must be many out there like me

Corbyn says one thing then his cabinet immediately say something else

 

As much as I don't mind Corbyn, he is frustratingly divisive and lacks charisma or sense of leadership.  

 

 I reckon Labour could have a leader, say Keir Starmer, and policies not far off what they have, and they'd clean up.  As long as clarity over Brexit.

[doctor jambo]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

As much as I don't mind Corbyn, he is frustratingly divisive and lacks charisma or sense of leadership.  

 

 I reckon Labour could have a leader, say Keir Starmer, and policies not far off what they have, and they'd clean up.  As long as clarity over Brexit.

Yep , I could tolerate Starmer, or the right Milliband.

Mind you, I would vote for any party that had Esther Mcvey in charge- just because she's dirty. I would overlook her obvious flaws as a human being on that basis alone- the cause of many of my life problems!

[Boris]

Just now, doctor jambo said:

Yep , I could tolerate Starmer, or the right Milliband.

Mind you, I would vote for any party that had Esther Mcvey in charge- just because she's dirty. I would overlook her obvious flaws as a human being on that basis alone- the cause of many of my life problems!

 

Can't stand that woman!

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

I have discussed this with my kids.

We need immigration.

What Brexit will do is replace white European immigrant labour, with black Asian/African/Indian labour.

Which is the polar opposite of the outcome desired by many.

Until there is mature debate about our need for immigration ( in the west the population is barely growing at all!) then people will continue to deny the need for immigration expansion.

There should be a cross party group to discuss this with urgency and come to agreement to take immigration OFF the table in elections

Declining population would be a good thing - it is the age distribution of the population which is the problem, in part down to a medical profession and wider culture that seems to see longevity, however miserable its achievement often is,  as the prime if not only objective.

I think immigration is currently pretty  evenly split between EU and non-EU. The numbers if immigrants won't decline much if at all because as you say it is needed The split between EU and non-EU may not change much either - certainly non-EU won't "replace" EU. 

To the extent it does benefit black Asian/African/Indian workers that surely makes it less racist than the current policy within the EU. Whatever the intentions of some Leave voters.

(And of course the principle of controlled immigration post-Brexit would be no different from and no more racist than the immigration policies of most nations and indeed of the EU in relation to immigration to the EU)

Edited August 22, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

On ‎21‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 00:06, ri Alban said:

It would be quite funny if the UK struck a trade deal with Turkey with freedom of movement. India and Pakistan even more. Nigel would shit himself.

"Freedom of movement" is not a normal feature of trade deals.

[Victorian]

39 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

As much as I don't mind Corbyn, he is frustratingly divisive and lacks charisma or sense of leadership.  

 

 I reckon Labour could have a leader, say Keir Starmer, and policies not far off what they have, and they'd clean up.  As long as clarity over Brexit.

 

This.    He can't seem to get anyone to warm to him,  despite being a genuinely pleasant man in private.    He can't project his personality for some reason.    He's not a natural leader by any measure.

[The Real Maroonblood]

38 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Yep , I could tolerate Starmer, or the right Milliband.

Mind you, I would vote for any party that had Esther Mcvey in charge- just because she's dirty. I would overlook her obvious flaws as a human being on that basis alone- the cause of many of my life problems!

Politics apart Mcvey I would. 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

This.    He can't seem to get anyone to warm to him,  despite being a genuinely pleasant man in private.    He can't project his personality for some reason.    He's not a natural leader by any measure.

 

It's a bit like Foot and Benn back in the day.

 

the right wing press bombard the message that he's "loony left", a Marxist (never a pejorative in my (little red) book!), a terrorist sympathiser, and anti-semite etc etc etc.  Rather than combat it, it's like he wants to take a moral high ground which is sort of understandable e.g. don't rise to their bait, but it misses the mark, imo.

 

Also, suspicious about how in control Corbyn actually is.  Blair had Campbell, but you got the impression Blair was driving stuff at the same time.  I get the feeling Corbyn is a passenger and is being driven.

 

It's a shame as this is a real missed opportunity to try to fix the screw ups since 2008.  Which is, imo, more important than Brexit, which is a side show that has morphed into something that will compound the existing post 2008 shit-show even further, whilst potentially irreparably dividing the country, and, depending on your position as to whether you think it a good or a bad thing, the break up of the UK itself.

[dobmisterdobster]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

The Tories have done a very good job of brainwashing large swathes of the electorate into the belief that Brexit must be concluded by Oct 31.     There has been a 'mission creep' of opinion from one of avoiding a damaging no deal at all costs to one of avoiding further delay at all costs.     People have heard this so much and so often that they become convinced that further delay is worse than self inflicted chaos and trauma.    The Tories also know that the electorate is stupid enough to buy into the coming triumphant fanfare of victory when we crash out.     The next battle ground will be the pass-the-parcel of blame.     Do not rule out the Tories being able to manipulate public opinion in that regard.

The Tory manifesto in 2017 said no deal was better than a bad deal. It's only MPs like Oliver Letwin or Philip Hammond who push the anti no deal narrative.

9 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

This.    He can't seem to get anyone to warm to him,  despite being a genuinely pleasant man in private.    He can't project his personality for some reason.    He's not a natural leader by any measure.

Corbyn does a lot better when he's talking about social issues and not Brexit.

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, Victorian said:

The Tories have done a very good job of brainwashing large swathes of the electorate into the belief that Brexit must be concluded by Oct 31.     There has been a 'mission creep' of opinion from one of avoiding a damaging no deal at all costs to one of avoiding further delay at all costs.     People have heard this so much and so often that they become convinced that further delay is worse than self inflicted chaos and trauma.    The Tories also know that the electorate is stupid enough to buy into the coming triumphant fanfare of victory when we crash out.     The next battle ground will be the pass-the-parcel of blame.     Do not rule out the Tories being able to manipulate public opinion in that regard.

I said pretty much this a few weeks ago on this thread.

 

There's a clear game plan being played out.

Whip up the rhetoric and the red tops - this is in full swing, with the most pliable MSM ever seen.

Enter into discussions with no intent to find a soluion/compromise - In play now. He's doing the gladhanding tour whilst removing the real negotiators from further talks.

Exit the EU on 31/10 with no deal - Absolute 100% nailed on. 

Blame everyone and their dog for all the above - Already started with talk of traitors etc.

 

This plays well with the little Englander/Empire 2,0 types who don't seem to conceptualise the economic carnage that will follow leaving without a deal and having no trade deals in place for 1st November.

 

The bit i'm stuck on is the aftermath. Is it straight into a snap election to be swept home with a huge majority on the back of misplaced jingoism? or does he actually man it up and try to rebuild the UK's place in the international market?

[Justin Z]

Meanwhile . . .

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

Meanwhile . . .

 

 

[Costanza]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I said pretty much this a few weeks ago on this thread.

 

There's a clear game plan being played out.

Whip up the rhetoric and the red tops - this is in full swing, with the most pliable MSM ever seen.

Enter into discussions with no intent to find a soluion/compromise - In play now. He's doing the gladhanding tour whilst removing the real negotiators from further talks.

Exit the EU on 31/10 with no deal - Absolute 100% nailed on. 

Blame everyone and their dog for all the above - Already started with talk of traitors etc.

 

This plays well with the little Englander/Empire 2,0 types who don't seem to conceptualise the economic carnage that will follow leaving without a deal and having no trade deals in place for 1st November.

 

The bit i'm stuck on is the aftermath. Is it straight into a snap election to be swept home with a huge majority on the back of misplaced jingoism? or does he actually man it up and try to rebuild the UK's place in the international market?

Some people being saying this for a while.

 

A lot of leavers being played here to attribute blame to the EU. 

 

 

[Don Dan]

Meanwhile there appears to be a shift, movement in altering the current deal on the table by the EU. Ever so slightly shifting but it may be a wedge that will allow an opening for more negotiations to take place. 

 

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/11923-gbp-to-eur-and-usd-macron-headlines

“We can find a solution to the backstop by October 31…we can work on finding a regime that keeps the Good Friday Agreement and also ensures the integrity of the single market,” said Merkel.

 

"It is just what Michel Barnier has negotiated can be amended while complying with the integrity of the single market and the two goals I mentioned, then we can find a solution," Macron said during a visit by UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson to Paris.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[Cade]

ALL the EU will agree to change or is even considering changing is the political declaration that sets out in a very wishy-washy way where the future relationship of the EU and the UK is going.

 

If they can manipulate that to promise a future in which the backstop will never have to be activated, then that may be enough to get May's Deal through parliament.

 

 

[Don Dan]

“We can find a solution to the backstop by October 31…we can work on finding a regime that keeps the Good Friday Agreement and also ensures the integrity of the single market,” said Merkel.

[Don Dan]

Re the Irish border. I was listen to the BBC News Channel a few minutes ago  and a Danish border expert said there are solutions there which Barnier knows about but May didn’t want to consider. The Danish guy said he presented them to May would wasn’t interested however he has presented them to Johnson who is very interested. These solutions are similar to the ones used in Dubai and in some South American areas. 

I fully expect the backstop to go as both sides will embrace the proposals to ensure some sort of transition deal. 

[Cade]

Macron saying that backstop won't be going and that the EU can't wait until the night of 31st October for the UK to come up with a proper proposal.

 

Shifting his stance right enough

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

Macron saying that backstop won't be going and that the EU can't wait until the night of 31st October for the UK to come up with a proper proposal.

 

Shifting his stance right enough

[SE16 3LN]

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 08:17, Boris said:

 

Greek bail out ECB/Eurozone

 

Freedom of movement of workers,  yes, EU!  And it's bad, why?

 

Does it matter who the countries are?  Germany selling arms to Lithuania is no different to the UK selling arms to the Saudis.

 

Enjoy your work!

Your intransigence on this stuff is astonishing. Anything to defend your beloved Capitalist super state I suppose

[Don Dan]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Macron saying that backstop won't be going and that the EU can't wait until the night of 31st October for the UK to come up with a proper proposal.

 

Shifting his stance right enough

 

Both Emmanuel Macron today, and Angela Merkel yesterday, gave the British PM a glimmer of hope of pulling off his plan to leave the EU with a deal which does not include the hated Irish backstop.

[dobmisterdobster]

Macron has lost the support of his country.

He's the perfect fall-guy for No Deal.

[Cade]

Linking to the Daily Mail instantly renders your argument invalid.

 

 

[Victorian]

A bit of lateral thinking is required.    Maybe we only need an Irish border solution along the lines of border checks and border officials that the Irish republican paramilitary wont shoot at.    Like say... an old ally... the Germans perhaps?     There should be a few thousand ex- motor industry workers looking for a new gig.     

 

I've cracked it.

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

Linking to the Daily Mail instantly renders your argument invalid.

 

 

 

Much better than the argument you put up with no link.

[Don Dan]

From another source.   https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/22/emmanuel-macron-backs-month-of-talks-to-agree-brexit-deal

 

Emmanuel Macron has described the Irish backstop as “indispensable” to a Brexit deal and urged Boris Johnson to set out his proposed alternatives as soon as possible, as he met the British prime minister in Paris.

The French president told Johnson on Thursday that the EU would like “visibility” on London’s concrete proposals for the UK’s withdrawal from the EU within a month, echoing language used by the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, on Wednesday. 

Emmanuel Macron tells Boris Johnson any new Brexit deal would have to be very similar to existing one.

Macron said he stood united with Merkel that the clock was ticking and that it was not possible to wait until the last minute to find a solution. He said the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, could be involved in finding an answer “without totally reshuffling the withdrawal agreement”.

“We should all together be able to find something smart within 30 days if there is goodwill on both sides,” Macron said. “We need to try to have a useful month.”

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/backstop-needed-to-protect-stability-in-ireland-says-macron-1.3993765

 

 

So it is an important element that allows us first of all to guarantee the stability in Ireland and also the integrity of the single market. These are our two goals. When you talk about flexibility, well let me be very clear with you, these two goals have to be met. 

“We therefore have to find a solution that guarantees the integrity of the single market. We have to be able to guarantee to companies, to citizens and consumers in Europe that comply with the rules of the European Union and whatever comes from a market that is not in the European Union is controlled.”

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/macron-gives-johnson-one-month-to-produce-irish-backstop-alternatives/

 

French President Emmanuel Macron put the ball squarely in Boris Johnson’s court on Thursday (22 August), urging the UK Prime Minister to present detailed proposals to re-write the Irish backstop and avoid the UK crashing out of the bloc without a deal after 31 October.

 

All these refer to the Back Stop which if suitable solutions are found will be scrapped.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[Don Dan]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/11923-gbp-to-eur-and-usd-macron-headlines/amp

 

"It is just what Michel Barnier has negotiated can be amended while complying with the integrity of the single market and the two goals I mentioned, then we can find a solution," Macron said during a visit by UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson to Paris.

The suggestion from Macron is Barnier can find a solution "without totally reshuffling the Withdrawal Agreement".

"We should all together be able to find something smart within 30 days on both sides if there is goodwill on both sides and I believe there is," said Macron.

 

[ri Alban]

3 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Your intransigence on this stuff is astonishing. Anything to defend your beloved Capitalist super state I suppose

Says the UK fanboy. Ra Ra Ra!

[Pans Jambo]

Was in at a customers today in East Lothian. Production manager is Lithuanian. Hes been there for 12 years. He handed in his notice today. Had enough of the shite coming out of Westminster & the final nail in the coffin for him was Priti Patel’s announcement about the end of free movement on 1st November. 

His boss (my customer) is absolutely spewing. Hes lost a good man. 

& for what?

[ri Alban]

6 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Was in at a customers today in East Lothian. Production manager is Lithuanian. Hes been there for 12 years. He handed in his notice today. Had enough of the shite coming out of Westminster & the final nail in the coffin for him was Priti Patel’s announcement about the end of free movement on 1st November. 

His boss (my customer) is absolutely spewing. Hes lost a good man. 

& for what?

I look forward to the end of free movement of Brits to Scotland and welcoming the R.o.W.

[frankblack]

14 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

I have discussed this with my kids.

We need immigration.

What Brexit will do is replace white European immigrant labour, with black Asian/African/Indian labour.

Which is the polar opposite of the outcome desired by many.

Until there is mature debate about our need for immigration ( in the west the population is barely growing at all!) then people will continue to deny the need for immigration expansion.

There should be a cross party group to discuss this with urgency and come to agreement to take immigration OFF the table in elections

 

Hysterican nonsense, but consistent with your constant slurs of all leave voters being racists.

 

What you are hinting at is currently being used outwith the EU by big organisations to bring in contractors en masse from India, so your point is invalid.

 

Any changes will be in a managed immigration scheme, unlike with Freedom of Movement where as many EU citizens can come here as they want regardless of whether there is work for them.

[frankblack]

23 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I look forward to the end of free movement of Brits to Scotland and welcoming the R.o.W.

 

That won't be a problem when the economy in Scotland crashes and there are no jobs. 👍

[Justin Z]

19 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Any changes will be in a managed immigration scheme, unlike with Freedom of Movement where as many EU citizens can come here as they want regardless of whether there is work for them.

 

Not just incorrect, but so incorrect as to be at best, intellectually dishonest.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Justin Z

[Justin Z]

Saw this chart on the interwebs. If accurate, it sure seems a bit fishy . . .