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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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Francis Albert
1 minute ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Or we just stop at leave? Why ignore the first vote? 

I don't think we should and that another vote is a terrible idea. I just think those advocating it should at least  tell us what the question will be. Without defining that,  "another vote"  is pretty meaningless .

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1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

Ok.  You'll stick with what sounds plausible regarding what's best for the country,    from a bunch of people who have screwed the living shit out of the worst off in society and have an extensive catalogue of self interest,   dishonesty and in-house political philosophical obsession.

 

As long as it sounds good but.

 

Okay, you're ideologically tethered to traditional left wing grievances, I get it. Big bad Tories, bedroom tax, benefit sanctions etc..

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I don't think we should and that another vote is a terrible idea. I just think those advocating it should at least  tell us what the question will be. Without defining that,  "another vote"  is pretty meaningless .

I think another vote is the only democratic solution. 

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Francis Albert
17 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

We've had two votes. 

Three in fact. Referenda in 1975 and 2016 on our membership, and a subsequent General Election  which elected a  House overwhelmingly consisting of MPs standing on a manifesto committed to Leave.

Edited by Francis Albert
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1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

Okay, you're ideologically tethered to traditional left wing grievances, I get it. Big bad Tories, bedroom tax, benefit sanctions etc..

 

Here's a bit more about Jacob Rees-Mogg if you're interested 

 

https://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/who-is-jacob-rees-mogg-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-tory-mp-11364203730622

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/02/polite-extremist-jacob-rees-mogg-s-seemingly-unstoppable-rise

 

 

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9 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Okay, you're ideologically tethered to traditional left wing grievances, I get it. Big bad Tories, bedroom tax, benefit sanctions etc..

 

Eh no.   :rofl:     

 

I simply remember what they've done,  do and are all about.     If you want to lampoon the so-called grievances then carry on.     Pretend none of those things matter or ever happened.

 

No wonder they're in power.     

Edited by Victorian
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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Three in fact. Referenda in 1975 and 2016 on our membership, and a subsequent General Election  which elected a  House overwhelmingly consisting of MPs standing on a manifesto committed to Leave.

We've had umpteen general elections. 

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Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Eh no.   :rofl:     

 

I simply remember what they've done,  do and are all about.     If you want to lampoon the so-called grievances then carry on.     Pretend none of those things matter or ever happened.

 

No wonder they're in power.     

 

Tunnel vision and grievance politics. Wolfie Smith never grew up. Freedom for Tooting! I thought this guy was absurd in 1978 and I still do. Not saying the Tories are much better but at least I might collect a pension someday. Corbyn will have us at the IMF within one term, Sturgeon much quicker than even that. 

 

 

 

Image result for Wolfie Smith

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1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

 

Tunnel vision and grievance politics. Wolfie Smith never grew up. Freedom for Tooting! I thought this guy was absurd in 1978 and I still do. Not saying the Tories are much better but at least I might collect a pension someday. Corbyn will have us at the IMF within one term, Sturgeon much quicker than even that. 

 

 

 

Image result for Wolfie Smith

 

:cornette:

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Francis Albert
47 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

We've had umpteen general elections. 

Not with the EU being the defining issue. Not with both major parties promising to leave. 

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Seymour M Hersh
2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Bercow is no angel but the right wing,  desperate for hard Brexit,  Tory government narrative of Bercow favouring the other side is what it always is.     Complete and utter deception,   dishonesty and contempt.

 

Leveraging him by threatening to withhold his peerage is just the latest nasty,  slimy,  devious instance in a long and sorry history.

 

You swallow it if you want to.

 

I'd say it's typical politics. Bercow needs to be brought down to size (pun intended). He is breaking all sorts of protocol to allow remain MP's attempts at blocking Brexit and going against advice.

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Geoff the Mince

Blind loyalty to the Tories has to be the most pathetic view to take .

 

Give me anyone but them !

 

Slaves to a bunch of rich wanks who treat you like shite .

 

Pathetic 

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8 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

Blind loyalty to the Tories has to be the most pathetic view to take .

 

Give me anyone but them !

 

Slaves to a bunch of rich wanks who treat you like shite .

 

Pathetic 

Slavish unconditional Blind loyalty to any party is a very bad thing. It just makes politics tribal and weakens democracy. At present I dislike them all and there isn't one frontline politician I have any faith in.

Edited by SwindonJambo
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8 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Because it is. 

 

If that's your view you might have been better to post an assertion rather than a question.

 

 

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22 hours ago, CJGJ said:

Why would anyone want the worst thing to happen to he country to actually come to fruition

 

 

As I mentioned before, Brexit is not the "worst thing".  Leaving with no deal is the problem.

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1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

 He is breaking all sorts of protocol to allow remain MP's attempts at blocking Brexit and going against advice.

When the government has spent two years trying to circumvent Parliament and has been found in contempt, the Speaker has every right to use all the tools at his disposal.

"It's not protocol" and "It's not fair" are laughable complaints when the Govt has been riding roughshod over accepted practice.

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4 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

 

Tunnel vision and grievance politics. Wolfie Smith never grew up. Freedom for Tooting! I thought this guy was absurd in 1978 and I still do. Not saying the Tories are much better but at least I might collect a pension someday. Corbyn will have us at the IMF within one term, Sturgeon much quicker than even that. 

 

 

 

Image result for Wolfie Smith

In an independent Scotland she wouldn't be in charge. We are not allowed to run our economy cos we are too wee, eh? Need another country to do it for us, eh?We must be the only country in the world whereby a section of it's society doesn't believe it's people are capable of running its own affairs. Sad. 

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7 hours ago, jake said:

Worked through every   recession .

Dinnae get your nasty wee hopes up.

Ditto. 

 

Don't you think you should volunteer if it comes down to redundancies? I thought you had honour. Oh well!

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The speaker and M P,,S first call is to country that is what is happening.They all know 2/3 did not vote to leave.What will happen when millions of jobs go and the public then find out they were conned.Riots in the streets.Moggs and his friends taking homes back and making millions..

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
8 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Not with the EU being the defining issue. Not with both major parties promising to leave. 

Yes there was. UKIP were involved in plenty. There were also socialists, probably NF, independents. The list goes on.

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Seymour M Hersh
6 hours ago, Cade said:

When the government has spent two years trying to circumvent Parliament and has been found in contempt, the Speaker has every right to use all the tools at his disposal.

"It's not protocol" and "It's not fair" are laughable complaints when the Govt has been riding roughshod over accepted practice.

 

Cade in getting it wrong again shocker! :laugh:

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14 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

The only democratic answer is to have another vote. 

That is the only undemocratic answer.

 

The public voted, now deliver.

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5 hours ago, Jambo100 said:

The speaker and M P,,S first call is to country that is what is happening.They all know 2/3 did not vote to leave.What will happen when millions of jobs go and the public then find out they were conned.Riots in the streets.Moggs and his friends taking homes back and making millions..

2/3rds of the country did not vote to remain either.

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Francis Albert
4 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Yes there was. UKIP were involved in plenty. There were also socialists, probably NF, independents. The list goes on.

Not sure how that relates to my point. There has been only one general election (the last one) when the vast majority of MPs were elected on a manifesto that promised we would leave the EU.

Like the referendum vote (which 85% of MPs voted to hold) the majority of those MPs seem unwilling to accept the outcome or to compromise to deliver it. That's not one but two "peoples votes".

But somehow another "people's vote" is the only democratic answer!

 

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14 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

The only democratic answer is to have another vote. 

Nonsense we voted leave  and are leaving any m.p. who now want's to change that should resign their seat and fight as a remainer in a bye election.They wont as they know they won't be back.The voters have spoken were out and personally I would prefer the hard exit.

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4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Cade in getting it wrong again shocker! :laugh:

 

Except he isn't wrong.    The speaker has seen the extent of the government's discourtesy / contempt of the processes of parliament and has stated that he will not perform a function as a cheerleader of the executive.    He's operating from the basis of protecting the function of parliament.     Making sure parliament retains sovereignty because,   at the first and smallest opportunity,   this government would exclude parliament.

 

They can't be trusted.    With good reason because it's a fact that they attempted to sideline parliament.     Protocols and such like may return once this government is mercifully consigned to the arse end of history.

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10 minutes ago, sairyinthat said:

Nonsense we voted leave  and are leaving any m.p. who now want's to change that should resign their seat and fight as a remainer in a bye election.They wont as they know they won't be back.The voters have spoken were out and personally I would prefer the hard exit.

 

Just my own opinion.

 

If an MP voted to remain but their constituency voted to leave and vice versa leave/remain then that MP has a conflicted view with the majority of their constituents, therefore they should then abstain from any vote connected with 'brexit'.

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The Real Maroonblood
25 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Just my own opinion.

 

If an MP voted to remain but their constituency voted to leave and vice versa leave/remain then that MP has a conflicted view with the majority of their constituents, therefore they should then abstain from any vote connected with 'brexit'.

Good point. 

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Konrad von Carstein

This whole Brexit process has been, from the very day Cameron announced it, a beacon of Tory party ineptitude, self indulgence and arrogance.

 

To (mis)use Gerald Kuafman's quote, I sincerely hope that they are writing the longest suicide note in history which  results in them falling away and suffering the same fate as the original Liberal party did.

 

The major downside to that is, of course that the current main opposition  is just as inept, with the remaining parties being hamstrung due to their low numbers of MP's.

 

Governance of the UK (if it is to remain as a union *laughs* ) needs radical reform and equality of influence and a more consensual approach, Federalism?

 

Apologies for the ramble but I am hugely fearful of the potential havoc these idiots are bringing down on ordinary working people.

 

Edited by Konrad von Carstein
missing letter
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Geoff the Mince
2 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

This whole Brexit process has been, from the very day Cameron announced it, a beacon of Tory part ineptitude, self indulgence and arrogance.

 

To (mis)use Gerald Kuafman's quote, I sincerely hope that they are writing the longest suicide note in history which  results in them falling away and suffering the same fate as the original Liberal party did.

 

The major downside to that is, of course that the current main opposition  is just as inept, with the remaining parties being hamstrung due to their low numbers of MP's.

 

Governance of the UK (if it is to remain as a union *laughs* ) needs radical reform and equality of influence and a more consensual approach, Federalism?

 

Apologies for the ramble but I am hugely fearful of the potential havoc these idiots are bringing down on ordinary working people.

 

Couldn't agree more ! The weeks pass yet these shower of tossers are incapable of doing anything . 

Well apart from lie .

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1 hour ago, sairyinthat said:

Nonsense we voted leave  and are leaving any m.p. who now want's to change that should resign their seat and fight as a remainer in a bye election.They wont as they know they won't be back.The voters have spoken were out and personally I would prefer the hard exit.

They did that after brexit, and won.

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1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Just my own opinion.

 

If an MP voted to remain but their constituency voted to leave and vice versa leave/remain then that MP has a conflicted view with the majority of their constituents, therefore they should then abstain from any vote connected with 'brexit'.

I disagree. The MP should be voting in line with their constituents. That's their job. They're there to represent their constituents, not represent their own beliefs. 

 

At least, that's how I see their job. 

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The Real Maroonblood
2 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

I disagree. The MP should be voting in line with their constituents. That's their job. They're there to represent their constituents, not represent their own beliefs. 

 

At least, that's how I see their job. 

I'm sure that's what Jambo-Jimbo is saying.

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13 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

I disagree. The MP should be voting in line with their constituents. That's their job. They're there to represent their constituents, not represent their own beliefs. 

 

At least, that's how I see their job. 

 

But that's not what we are seeing though, time and time again we see MP's stand up in the commons, the vast majority from leave constituencies whom themselves voted to remain, and go on about either stopping brexit, 2nd referendums or some other thing to thwart what the majority of their own constituents voted.

 

And there are some, albeit a dozen or so who voted remain, voted against article 50 being triggered but are from a constituency which voted to leave, sometimes by a 60% - 70% margin, yet that MP is not representing the majority but only the minority in their constituency, and they then have the nerve to still collect their £70k+ wage a year.

 

That is why I said if the MP is conflicted, then they should abstain from brexit votes, that way they might just emerge with a modicum of decency.

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Representative democracy is supposed to be set up so that MPs act in the BEST INTERESTS of their constituents.

Often, what is in their best interests has been deeply unpopular.

We don't govern this nation by mob rule.

 

In this current crisis, MPs are openly admitting that Brexit is not in the best interests of the nation but they're bowing to public and media pressure.

Happy to see the financial ruin of the entire nation just to placate the Daily Mail and gammons. It's bizarre.

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Francis Albert

MPs are elected as representatives not delegates and do not necessaily have to follow the majority opinion of their constituents. Otherwise hanging would never have been abolished. However if an MP has stood for a party whose manifesto  committed to leave without making it clear he or she opposed leaving then that is undemocratic or at the least dishonourable.

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54 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

I disagree. The MP should be voting in line with their constituents. That's their job. They're there to represent their constituents, not represent their own beliefs. 

 

At least, that's how I see their job. 

 

Thats where I am Westminster asked the people

The people said leave

The MP's are there to serve the will of the people

 

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22 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

MPs are elected as representatives not delegates and do not necessaily have to follow the majority opinion of their constituents. Otherwise hanging would never have been abolished. However if an MP has stood for a party whose manifesto  committed to leave without making it clear he or she opposed leaving then that is undemocratic or at the least dishonourable.

 

Equally a MP is not elected so that their own personal beliefs dictate which way they vote, but recently we have seen many MP's put their own beliefs before that of the people who voted for them.

 

Edit: That is the conflict which I was on about.

Edited by Jambo-Jimbo
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On ‎01‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 15:38, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

The government produced and sent out a booklet to every household explaining what everything meant. go look up the word democracy.

The desperation clearly being shown

 

The government issued a generalised booklet.it did not know the terms and conditions of exit..no one did

 

The claim that this means we were all fully informed is laughable

 

You and Boris seem to be only capable of remembering what suits you hoping the public will forget the past and buy the lies

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Seymour M Hersh
26 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

The desperation clearly being shown

 

The government issued a generalised booklet.it did not know the terms and conditions of exit..no one did

 

The claim that this means we were all fully informed is laughable

 

You and Boris seem to be only capable of remembering what suits you hoping the public will forget the past and buy the lies

 

Aye that'll be what it is. It wasn't generalised (it certainly should have been neutral but wasn't) though it was a threat on every page should we leave. 

 

In any case shouldn't you be defending ra peepul in the thread on the Terrace? :laugh:

 

 

 

 

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Francis Albert
1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Equally a MP is not elected so that their own personal beliefs dictate which way they vote, but recently we have seen many MP's put their own beliefs before that of the people who voted for them.

 

Edit: That is the conflict which I was on about.

Basically I agree with you. The failure of the MPs who voted 85% to hold the referendum to implement it in some form (inevitably a compromise between hard and soft Brexit) and for so many to be actively trying to reverse the decision is disgraceful and undemocratic. Immoral is not to strong a word.  If they felt so strongly that Brexit would be a disaster they should never had voted for a referendum in the first place. 

If the MPs concerned clearly stated in their election campaign that they would ignore the Labour and Tory manifestos and if elected overturn a Leave vote then there would be some mitigation, But any if not most did not.

Edited by Francis Albert
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Francis Albert
1 hour ago, CJGJ said:

The desperation clearly being shown

 

The government issued a generalised booklet.it did not know the terms and conditions of exit..no one did

 

The claim that this means we were all fully informed is laughable

 

You and Boris seem to be only capable of remembering what suits you hoping the public will forget the past and buy the lies

It was pretty strong on the downsides of leaving.

And we still don't know the terms and conditions of exit. All we have is a transition agreement agreed with the EU but not by Parliament.

Substantive and meaningful discussions of the terms of the trading and other relations between the UK and UE after Brexit have not even begun, because the EU would not and will not commit to anything until after the transition agreement is agreed.

So what is the basis for this proposed "peoples vote"? How will it be "more informed"?

 

(In fact the UK's agreement to the negotiating process was ridiculous. Did no one on our side have any experience of real negotiations? Where the first rule is not to agree to preconditions for even talking. How can the divorce bill be agreed before the other terms of the divorce been agreed?)

Edited by Francis Albert
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5 hours ago, sairyinthat said:

Nonsense we voted leave  and are leaving any m.p. who now want's to change that should resign their seat and fight as a remainer in a bye election.They wont as they know they won't be back.The voters have spoken were out and personally I would prefer the hard exit.

 

What would the economic impact be of a hard brexit and the immediate and short term impact on jobs, road haulage, distribution, just in time manufacturing etc.?
I think it will be a catastrophe but if you can alleviate my fears then that would be great.

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1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Basically I agree with you. The failure of the MPs who voted 85% to hold the referendum to implement it in some form (inevitably a compromise between hard and soft Brexit) and for so many to be actively trying to reverse the decision is disgraceful and undemocratic. Immoral is not to strong a word.  If they felt so strongly that Brexit would be a disaster they should never had voted for a referendum in the first place. 

If the MPs concerned clearly stated in their election campaign that they would ignore the Labour and Tory manifestos and if elected overturn a Leave vote then there would be some mitigation, But any if not most did not.

 

Absolutely, it is indeed one of the most disgraceful episodes in the whole brexit saga, little wonder the public are losing faith with politicians and parliament.

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

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