Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Jambo-Jimbo]

30 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

I mean, yeah. It's certainly nothing to aspire to But it's a platitude that will always remain the status quo if you just say it happens and don't hold them accountable when they do it.

 

Absolutely agree, and it's a two way stream, as there were many claims made by the remain side, which none of them have come true either.

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Like Norway? They're not in the EU. We could be like them.

 

Oh, wait...

 

I don't think that was suggested in the booklet.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Absolutely agree, and it's a two way stream, as there were many claims made by the remain side, which none of them have come true either.

 

Of course. It's a pandemic.

[Thunderstruck]

44 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Dem da rools...

 

‘Rools’ - who sticks to rules in today’s politics?

 

In recent years we have results of two referendums (played within the ‘rools’) cast into doubt and one of these even had a subsequent election where both major parties pledged to uphold the result albeit with different ideas on the process of leaving. These parties hold the vast majority of seats and votes - surely that was a result within the ‘rools’ and should have settled the issue? Of course not, it is still not sufficiently definitive and we need yet another vote. 

 

Alas, we are condemned to an age of neverendums and ‘meaningful’ votes. 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

What context us there to apply?

Off the top of my head those are quotes from prominent Leave campaigners; Fox, Johnson & Gove.

Easiest trade deal in history. Really?

No one is saying we should leave the customs union. *cough*

We hold all the cards. Clearly.

 

It is worth revisiting these things and applying the context that these charlatans are lying ***** every time they open their mouths. 

 

Perhaps we should wait until trade deals start.

 

The Cameron/Osborne booklet was clear that leaving CU was part and parcel of voting leave.

 

All the cards? No but we held a lot more than the muppets who (and I use this word advisadly) negotiated (in the main Olly Robbins and May) used.

[Boris]

12 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Every system has it's faults but at least with fptp you are less likely to get unelected but appointed MSP's (all 6 Greens iirc) creating a tail wagging the dog situation as they are with Nippy's government. 

 

Yay democracy!  Am I right in thinking you would prefer fptp to a more proportional sytem of electing representatives?  If you go by FPTP then Scotland would be independent by now, given the SNP's dominance at westminster elections, and the fptp section of Holyrood elections.

 

To say that the Greens are the tail wagging the dog, because they are list MSPs, sort of belittles them, not to mention how little opposition there would be (14 v 59)

 

9 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I don't think that was suggested in the booklet.

 

I didn't realise that it was up to the Remain side to frame what Brexit should look like if Leave won.  Surely that was Leave's role?

[Boris]

13 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

‘Rools’ - who sticks to rules in today’s politics?

 

In recent years we have results of two referendums (played within the ‘rools’) cast into doubt and one of these even had a subsequent election where both major parties pledged to uphold the result albeit with different ideas on the process of leaving. These parties hold the vast majority of seats and votes - surely that was a result within the ‘rools’ and should have settled the issue? Of course not, it is still not sufficiently definitive and we need yet another vote. 

 

Alas, we are condemned to an age of neverendums and ‘meaningful’ votes. 

 

 

It's a terrible mess, I'll give you that!

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Yay democracy!  Am I right in thinking you would prefer fptp to a more proportional sytem of electing representatives?  If you go by FPTP then Scotland would be independent by now, given the SNP's dominance at westminster elections, and the fptp section of Holyrood elections.

 

To say that the Greens are the tail wagging the dog, because they are list MSPs, sort of belittles them, not to mention how little opposition there would be (14 v 59)

 

 

I didn't realise that it was up to the Remain side to frame what Brexit should look like if Leave won.  Surely that was Leave's role?

 

I prefer it to proportional representation, yes. But it's not perfect. Look at proportional rep and the dozens and dozens of governments in Italy and their shambolic situation. 

 

But they are doing exactly that on tax and finance Boris and none won a seat they were all list candidates.

 

The booklet was prepared by the government/Cameron & Osbourne arch remainers and the civil service but was effectively remain propaganda and of course paid for by the tax payer. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

Not really expecting much to immediately change after this vote tonight.      Labour will table the no confidence motion and it will almost certainly fall,   changing nothing.      There will be a flurry of activity to supposedly coalesce around a theoretical deal that would be capable of passing through parliament and it will be taken back to the EU.     There may well be moves made to attempt to postpone article 50 but the government will resist.     May will run down the clock still further and come back with a similar vote,   based on a revised deal.

Tonight's all about the pantomime. 

 

Labour will table a no confidence motion, lose it handsomely, therby rendering themselves officially impotent, as everyone apart from Jeremy Corbyn already knows.

 

There will be the pretence of a revision of the deal, which once the EU27 stop pissing themselves laughing, they will reject, once again reminding the UK that the deal is the deal.

 

Article 50 will not be postponed and we'll sail serenely into a no deal exit on 29/3, and come 30/3 we'll all be in the land of milk and honey, empire restored and Britania will be ruling the waves. Just the way it always been. Right?

 

 

 

[doctor jambo]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yay democracy!  Am I right in thinking you would prefer fptp to a more proportional sytem of electing representatives?  If you go by FPTP then Scotland would be independent by now, given the SNP's dominance at westminster elections, and the fptp section of Holyrood elections.

 

To say that the Greens are the tail wagging the dog, because they are list MSPs, sort of belittles them, not to mention how little opposition there would be (14 v 59)

 

 

I didn't realise that it was up to the Remain side to frame what Brexit should look like if Leave won.  Surely that was Leave's role?

I cannot understand why the ref was non party political, then everything following it HAS been.

A major cock up for all concerned,

We have a remainer negotiating our way out, and a Brexiteer in Corbyn sniping from the other side.

there should have been a cross party commission doing it all, with representation ( equal) from all parties.

Labour remain are being held hostage by exit leadership,

and Tory Leave held hostage by remain leadership

DUP want no border with the ROI, but insist there is a border

and the SNP desperate to remain, and can only do so by potentially triggering the polar opposite of a hard brexit.

 

Anyone surprised the whole thing is paralysed

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I prefer it to proportional representation, yes. But it's not perfect. Look at proportional rep and the dozens and dozens of governments in Italy and their shambolic situation. 

 

FPTP is not perfect, and neither is it democratic!

 

Not all parliaments that have PR are shambolic.  Holyrood for one.  Then there is Germany, thats not too bad.  The Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland...

 

I'd say the shambolic nature of Italian Government is more down to Italian politics rather than the electoral system.  You could use that argument against FPTP citing the UK as an an example of shambolic government!

 

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

But they are doing exactly that on tax and finance Boris and none won a seat they were all list candidates.

 

As elected by the people.  Why should a significant proportion of the electorate not be represented, simply down to the vagries of an outmoded, undemocratic electoral system?

 

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

The booklet was prepared by the government/Cameron & Osbourne arch remainers and the civil service but was effectively remain propaganda and of course paid for by the tax payer. 

 

So Leave can point at that and say "Look, here's what it meant, they said so"?  As I mentioned Norway isn't in the EU, we voted to leave, we could go down that EEA/EFTA route if we wanted to.  Elephant in the room is this whole freedom of movement impasse.

 

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I cannot understand why the ref was non party political, then everything following it HAS been.

A major cock up for all concerned,

We have a remainer negotiating our way out, and a Brexiteer in Corbyn sniping from the other side.

there should have been a cross party commission doing it all, with representation ( equal) from all parties.

Labour remain are being held hostage by exit leadership,

and Tory Leave held hostage by remain leadership

DUP want no border with the ROI, but insist there is a border

and the SNP desperate to remain, and can only do so by potentially triggering the polar opposite of a hard brexit.

 

Anyone surprised the whole thing is paralysed

 

Becasue the whole genesis of the referendum was solely down to internal Tory Party politics.

 

BTW, I agree with much you written above.

[Geoff the Mince]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Thanks I'll read the paper and try not to intentionally misread it.

I believe Justin has you on ignore .

[NANOJAMBO]

55 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Tonight's all about the pantomime. 

 

Labour will table a no confidence motion, lose it handsomely, therby rendering themselves officially impotent, as everyone apart from Jeremy Corbyn already knows.

 

There will be the pretence of a revision of the deal, which once the EU27 stop pissing themselves laughing, they will reject, once again reminding the UK that the deal is the deal.

 

Article 50 will not be postponed and we'll sail serenely into a no deal exit on 29/3, and come 30/3 we'll all be in the land of milk and honey, empire restored and Britania will be ruling the waves. Just the way it always been. Right?

 

 

 

In a nut shell, May's Plan B. 

[NANOJAMBO]

16 hours ago, Toggie88 said:

The problem originates from the obvious fact that what the majority of people of voted for (brexit), means a bunch of different things to different people. What they were promising was different things to different people, it's not surprising now that some aren't happy. The referendum was fundamentally flawed in that aspect. 

IMO it was straightforward - stay/leave.

 

The next stop, logically, is - how to leave  :Norway/Canada+/Swiss/No deal/None

 

Any 2nd ref (assuming there is one) is asking a very different question from the 1st ref and I can't understand why quitters are SO against this idea. Put the options on the table and ask the people to decide how they want to pursue their desire to quit the EU. And yet quitters dress this up as some kind of betrayal?  Bizarre. 

[Notts1874]

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

UK trade with USA in goods and services £150bn pounds with a £30bn surplus. With Germany £120bn with a £30bn deficit.

 

 

Scotland has a deficit of £20b with England and we're 11x smaller. Unions?

Edited January 15, 2019 by ri Alban

[Des Lynam]

I still think she’ll get this vote through. 

 

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Every system has it's faults but at least with fptp you are less likely to get unelected but appointed MSP's (all 6 Greens iirc) creating a tail wagging the dog situation as they are with Nippy's government. 

Yes, FPTP stops the need to pay £billion bribes to minority parties.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

I cannot understand why the ref was non party political, then everything following it HAS been.

A major cock up for all concerned,

We have a remainer negotiating our way out, and a Brexiteer in Corbyn sniping from the other side.

there should have been a cross party commission doing it all, with representation ( equal) from all parties.

Labour remain are being held hostage by exit leadership,

and Tory Leave held hostage by remain leadership

DUP want no border with the ROI, but insist there is a border

and the SNP desperate to remain, and can only do so by potentially triggering the polar opposite of a hard brexit.

 

Anyone surprised the whole thing is paralysed

This all bean sprouts fault, nobody else. She'll be gone by the morning.

[doctor jambo]

19 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

This all bean sprouts fault, nobody else. She'll be gone by the morning.

She wont go, though yes, its all her fault, I totally agree.

I don't think she is capable of either humility or introspection.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said:

IMO it was straightforward - stay/leave.

 

The next stop, logically, is - how to leave  :Norway/Canada+/Swiss/No deal/None

 

Any 2nd ref (assuming there is one) is asking a very different question from the 1st ref and I can't understand why quitters are SO against this idea. Put the options on the table and ask the people to decide how they want to pursue their desire to quit the EU. And yet quitters dress this up as some kind of betrayal?  Bizarre. 

 

But that's not what the proponents of a second vote want.

What they want is to vote on either May's deal or to remain.

Far from deciding what way the UK leaves, they want to find ways for the UK to stay.

That's the problem with a second referendum, because one of the options which the advocates of a second vote want to be put on the ballot paper, is a question which has already been asked and that option lost first time around.

[Mikey1874]

50 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

I still think she’ll get this vote through. 

 

 

 

If the only alternative is No Deal 

[doctor jambo]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

 

 

 

May needs to watch the donuts. Look what sugar levels do to Dianne Abbott......

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Geoff the Mince said:

I believe Justin has you on ignore .

Fair enough. I don't have anyone on ignore but each to his own. It certainly doesn't mean I have to ignore him!

 

I hope for his sake, and that of the rest of his class, that they get some exposure to alternative views about Brexit. Many "experts" take a much less pessimistic view of Brexit than the Government's propaganda before the vote (and Remainers ongoing propaganda since the vote). They are a minority but majority views are not always right.  

[ri Alban]

Who said that????

[Governor Tarkin]

9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Who said that????

 

The baby Jesus.

 

Probably.

[doctor jambo]

5 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

The baby Jesus.

 

Probably.

Good we need a saviour

[Mikey1874]

Just 10 weeks and 3 days till we leave as it stands. 

[redjambo]

6 hours ago, Victorian said:

Not really expecting much to immediately change after this vote tonight.      Labour will table the no confidence motion and it will almost certainly fall,   changing nothing.      There will be a flurry of activity to supposedly coalesce around a theoretical deal that would be capable of passing through parliament and it will be taken back to the EU.     There may well be moves made to attempt to postpone article 50 but the government will resist.     May will run down the clock still further and come back with a similar vote,   based on a revised deal.

 

I disagree. I reckon that a suspension of Article 50 is the most probable outcome due to lack of time. For once we're actually getting some form of consensus politics going on in Westminster, albeit only because there is a common enemy in May's choice of no deal or a "bad" deal. No doubt I'll be proven wrong though!

[coconut doug]

5 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

I cannot understand why the ref was non party political, then everything following it HAS been.

A major cock up for all concerned,

We have a remainer negotiating our way out, and a Brexiteer in Corbyn sniping from the other side.

there should have been a cross party commission doing it all, with representation ( equal) from all parties.

Labour remain are being held hostage by exit leadership,

and Tory Leave held hostage by remain leadership

DUP want no border with the ROI, but insist there is a border

and the SNP desperate to remain, and can only do so by potentially triggering the polar opposite of a hard brexit.

 

Anyone surprised the whole thing is paralysed

Corbyn voted for remain and campaigned for it. He says he would vote remain again, unless of course you can show different.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Corbyn voted for remain and campaigned for it. He says he would vote remain again, unless of course you can show different.

 

Just to provide a counterpoint on Corbyn's views on the EU:

 

https://www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/

[coconut doug]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Just to provide a counterpoint on Corbyn's views on the EU:

 

https://www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/

I was aware of most of that but the facts are also as i have stated.

 

Strangely i find it difficult to accept that May is or was a genuine remainer. There are many pros and cons re the EU but individuals must decide which ones they wish to prioritise and these priorities will change with time. Perhaps that has happened with May and Corbyn. If it's alright for them to change their minds why not the rest of us?

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

I was aware of most of that but the facts are also as i have stated.

 

Strangely i find it difficult to accept that May is or was a genuine remainer. There are many pros and cons re the EU but individuals must decide which ones they wish to prioritise and these priorities will change with time. Perhaps that has happened with May and Corbyn. If it's alright for them to change their minds why not the rest of us?

 

I've wondered that too. Occasionally she's come out with statements over the last two years that could have come straight from the mouth of a solid Leaver. Mind you, perhaps she's a great actress?  

[coconut doug]

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-labour-theresa-may-deal-future-not-today-sky-ridge-a8639536.html

 

Corbyn in his own words saying he doesn’t know how he would vote in a second ref a couple of month ago.

 

That seems to be his latest position.

 

Maybe but i could link to the opposite view and to another where he says he does not know how he would vote. He also says he might be prepared to campaign for remain.  The Labour Party holds all views and none simultaneously and so it appears does their leader.

[coconut doug]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I've wondered that too. Occasionally she's come out with statements over the last two years that could have come straight from the mouth of a solid Leaver. Mind you, perhaps she's a great actress?  

Yes and is it possible that she is undermining the will of the people by standing up for them in such a ridiculously obstinate way?

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

The Labour Party holds all views and none simultaneously and so it appears does their leader.

 

[Costanza]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Fair enough. I don't have anyone on ignore but each to his own. It certainly doesn't mean I have to ignore him!

 

I hope for his sake, and that of the rest of his class, that they get some exposure to alternative views about Brexit. Many "experts" take a much less pessimistic view of Brexit than the Government's propaganda before the vote (and Remainers ongoing propaganda since the vote). They are a minority but majority views are not always right.  

Who are the experts who think leaving on WTO terms wouldn't have a hugely damaging impact on the economy and industry?

Everything I've read and heard from trade negotiators and business leaders in various sectors suggest otherwise but I'm willing to hear credible alternative points of view.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Utterly sick of May. She better quit after she gets roasted tonight. Waste of time these last few weeks have been and a corpse would have shown more authority 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

15 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-labour-theresa-may-deal-future-not-today-sky-ridge-a8639536.html

 

Corbyn in his own words saying he doesn’t know how he would vote in a second ref a couple of month ago.

 

That seems to be his latest position.

 

 

I'm sure he and Labour will have changed their views about a half dozen times since then, seems to depend on the latest opinion polls or whichever way the wind is blowing on that particular day.

[Costanza]

26 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Just to provide a counterpoint on Corbyn's views on the EU:

 

https://www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/

Good article that. If Corbyn wasn't leader, he would be advocating a "Lexit" with Hoey and Skinner.

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Utterly sick of May. She better quit after she gets roasted tonight. Waste of time these last few weeks have been and a corpse would have shown more authority 

 

Not a chance in hell.     She'll just bash on regardless.      Another pretence of going back to the EU for more magical assurances,   more running down the clock,   more project deceive on all and sundry,    bring back the vote in a few weeks.

 

Unless she can be stopped.

[Geoff the Mince]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

Not a chance in hell.     She'll just bash on regardless.      Another pretence of going back to the EU for more magical assurances,   more running down the clock,   more project deceive on all and sundry,    bring back the vote in a few weeks.

 

Unless she can be stopped.

I agree she will bash on ,  she will probably ask to  delay Article 50 and continue to slaver shite !

[Victorian]

Just now, Geoff the Mince said:

I agree she will bash on ,  she will probably ask to  delay Article 50 and continue to slaver shite !

 

It would kill her to be seen to adopt someone else's idea or suggestion.    She'll do that if it can be spun to be her strategy.       She is incapable of consensus or delegation.      

[Francis Albert]

28 minutes ago, Costanza said:

Who are the experts who think leaving on WTO terms wouldn't have a hugely damaging impact on the economy and industry?

Everything I've read and heard from trade negotiators and business leaders in various sectors suggest otherwise but I'm willing to hear credible alternative points of view.

Where did I say anything about experts views on  leaving on WTO terms? I said many experts (and it is true of academics and business leaders) have a less pessimistic view than the majority (and in some cases an optimistic view), of the UK outside the EU. It is not hard to find them by googling. But to name just one, Mervyn King the former (and quite successful) Governor of the Bank of England.

As I said they are a minority but majority forecasts about the future are often wrong,  Economic forecasts in particular.

 

As posted above we have a hugely successful trading relationship with the US on WTO terms and a pretty unsuccessful one with Germany on EU terms. Of course that is not the whole story but suggests WTO terms need not be disastrous or ruinous.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

35 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

I was aware of most of that but the facts are also as i have stated.

 

Strangely i find it difficult to accept that May is or was a genuine remainer. There are many pros and cons re the EU but individuals must decide which ones they wish to prioritise and these priorities will change with time. Perhaps that has happened with May and Corbyn. If it's alright for them to change their minds why not the rest of us?

She is the PM of a country and in negotiation with the EU. She is hardly going to express a personal view that she hopes she fails and we remain. It is a pity more of our negotiators didn't throughout look so desperate for a compromise (in many cases as close as possible to remain).  Compromise is the usual outcome of a negotiation but looking desperate to have one is not a good negotiating strategy. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

22 hours ago, CJGJ said:

There are 2 Tory parties who cannot agree with each other never mind other parties

 

Influenced by tin pot Irish politicians who represent a tiny % of the people and yet wield great power never mind the few politicians  who seek glory for themselves and not the interests of the country

 

You have to simply laugh at those who voted for Brexit being led by Boris the buffoon, Jacob 'the man who has no idea about the average man or woman' Res-Mogg…..imagine being duped by them.

 

They like it or not they had an agenda regarding immigration and prayed on fears of the population never mind the farcical financial promises made.

 

Now of course they are running scared as the lies are being unveiled one by one to the public

 

They know it will be rejected in a second vote and the only argument they put forward is we voted once and that's it for ever..total rubbish.

 

May has been caught out today and she has to go.....Corbyn has acted like a wimp and not a leader.

 

A second vote is the right option but politicians are not to be trusted one inch and will seek any way out if they can avoid having to face up to their responsibilities and we'll see if their bottle crashes

 

If this deal was on the table  time of the vote it would never have been accepted but when you listen to people saying 'my nana told me what it was like before the EU and she said it was much better so I voted to leave'...total hogwash

 

I said it before but those over 75 should not have had a vote for they are the past on this topic and not the future......many think only of themselves and wave the Union Flag as if we are In the 50' and 60's.....indeed those over 16 should have had the vote

 

Most of all I want to see those fishermen and women who voted to leave thinking they would be  ruling the waves round the UK facing up to the realities

 

 

Excellent post

[JudyJudyJudy]

May wont be dragged kicking and screaming out of No 10. She has no humility or dignity .  In some ways I do feel sorry for her as she had an impossible task however carried on regardless.  They should have decided two years ago on a Cross party of delegates to negotiate with the EU.  They would have probably achieved a better outcome than the shambles we have today.  Labour have been ineffective too and I agree with some posters only changing their views whenever the public change theirs.  I honestly think a New referendum is the best option. Let the full facts be known.  Then IN or OUT . However it would be clear from the very beginning what either option would deliver for the UK.   As an aside Im glued to the TV tonight watching this on various news programmes and flabbergasted at the ejects in the areas which voted Leave heavily.  ( Newcastle etc ) and how " everything will work out".  They are the people that Brexit will effect the most. Turkeys voting for Xmas comes to mind.  Incredible. 

[Mikey1874]

The debate is over 

 

Only 1 amendment being voted on - one trying to stop the Backstop. 

 

So vote will be soon.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Mikey1874

[gjcc]

That amendment.