Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, jake said:

 

You then stated it was still possible to leave.

What way is possible to leave in your opinion?

 

It's always been possible - indeed, quite straightforward - to leave. Had either:

 

1. The referendum campaign been based on facts and reason, not lies and emotion, and/or

 

2. Either a government of national unity or a cross-party team of negotiators been formed after the referendum, it would've all been so much easier.

 

Of course, neither occurred. Even in their absence, a whole series of follies then occurred.

 

3. Triggering Article 50 before beginning negotiations. Which Vote Leave explicitly stated would not happen - before most Leavers demanded it did happen.

 

4. Setting out as 'red lines' leaving the single market and the customs union - despite Leavers during the campaign saying "no-one is talking about leaving the single market", and despite most British people not having the faintest clue what a customs union even is - while at the same time insisting on a soft border in Ireland, frictionless trade and an end to freedom of movement. Utterly ridiculous. Because:

 

a] Frictionless trade requires us to remain in the single market - which in turn, requires us to maintain freedom of movement.

 

b] Maintaining a soft border in Ireland requires either the whole of the UK, or Northern Ireland, to remain in the customs union... while preventing a hard border in the Irish Sea requires us to remain in the single market.

 

On which basis, how could we have left?

 

5. By telling the truth about what was achievable and not achievable. That we could end freedom of movement, but this would mean tariffs on trade. That we could remain in the single market and maintain frictionless trade, but this would mean freedom of movement continuing. That we could leave the customs union, but this would mean a hard border in Ireland.

 

But telling the truth was beyond the Leave campaign and it has been willfully beyond the government. Playing games and trying to keep the Tory Party from falling apart has been all it's done instead.

 

The most sensible solution of all, which would have delivered Brexit, but no fall in living standards and involved no economic self-harm at all? Leave the political institutions (the European Parliament, the European Council, the European Commission), thereby protecting us against this phantom 'superstate' which some still insist is obviously just around the corner... while staying in the single market and customs union. Simple. But beyond those who prefer playing politics with the UK's entire future instead.

[shaun.lawson]

7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Because we are not talking about major medical intervention or consumer protection and the rights of individuals..

Should we have a cooling off period after the next general election? Independence referendum?

 

That's not an answer. We're talking about something a lot more important than those two examples. Yet we have no protections at all for a decision which, as my boss put it the day after the referendum "nobody had the knowledge to vote on".

[jake]

14 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

While I could be facetious here and say I miss the days before 1945 when Oxbridge graduates got 2 votes (!), of course I don't think the votes of more educated people are 'more valid'. Everyone's vote counts the same. Your use of 'valid' in the emboldened bit is interesting - because while no, better-educated people don't come to more 'valid' decisions, they will, on the whole, come to much better-informed decisions.

 

If we're seriously suggesting that the latter isn't true, why do we have training for any profession? Why not give Joe Bloggs from down the pub a job as a surgeon? The best protection of democracy and good policy is, and has always been, education. Both Brexit and Trump are a sign of how appallingly our education systems have failed - and just as much, how many people have been discarded as a result of not being well-educated (which of course, isn't their fault).

 

Something else too. In her speech yesterday, Margaret Beckett highlighted that:

 

1. A major medical intervention must be preceded by an assurance that informed consent has been given.

 

2. Consumer protection law allows a 14-day cooling off period for people to make sure they know what they're doing.

 

Could you explain why deciding the political and economic future of an entire country for the next several decades is somehow less important, and should not include similar protections?

Training for any profession is determined by it's importance.

Life experience and what you would like or not like is reflected in your vote.

Being better educated does not make you wiser.

And that's a fact.

How many of us know academics with no common sense.

Snobby socialists give me the fekin boak.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

This is a poll from July 2016, 2 weeks after the vote. 

 

 

Amongst Leave voters:

 

54% wanted to stay in the single market with some limits on free movement

 

35% wanted to leave the single market and end free movement

 

Not only were Leavers laughably split - but 54% of them had swallowed the lies and misleading propaganda that we could stay in the single market while limiting free movement.

 

Lies like these below. Which you clearly swallowed too, given your hilarious citing of Switzerland earlier in this thread.

 

 

I can't remember what your famous dossier was called, from which you were able to call up anything anyone had ever posted in the last two decades. I have no idea what my "hilarious citing of Switzerland" was.

[jake]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It's always been possible - indeed, quite straightforward - to leave. Had either:

 

1. The referendum campaign been based on facts and reason, not lies and emotion, and/or

 

2. Either a government of national unity or a cross-party team of negotiators been formed after the referendum, it would've all been so much easier.

 

Of course, neither occurred. Even in their absence, a whole series of follies then occurred.

 

3. Triggering Article 50 before beginning negotiations. Which Vote Leave explicitly stated would not happen - before most Leavers demanded it did happen.

 

4. Setting out as 'red lines' leaving the single market and the customs union - despite Leavers during the campaign saying "no-one is talking about leaving the single market", and despite most British people not having the faintest clue what a customs union even is - while at the same time insisting on a soft border in Ireland, frictionless trade and an end to freedom of movement. Utterly ridiculous. Because:

 

a] Frictionless trade requires us to remain in the single market - which in turn, requires us to maintain freedom of movement.

 

b] Maintaining a soft border in Ireland requires either the whole of the UK, or Northern Ireland, to remain in the customs union... while preventing a hard border in the Irish Sea requires us to remain in the single market.

 

On which basis, how could we have left?

 

5. By telling the truth about what was achievable and not achievable. That we could end freedom of movement, but this would mean tariffs on trade. That we could remain in the single market and maintain frictionless trade, but this would mean freedom of movement continuing. That we could leave the customs union, but this would mean a hard border in Ireland.

 

But telling the truth was beyond the Leave campaign and it has been willfully beyond the government. Playing games and trying to keep the Tory Party from falling apart has been all it's done instead.

 

The most sensible solution of all, which would have delivered Brexit, but no fall in living standards and involved no economic self-harm at all? Leave the political institutions (the European Parliament, the European Council, the European Commission), thereby protecting us against this phantom 'superstate' which some still insist is obviously just around the corner... while staying in the single market and customs union. Simple. But beyond those who prefer playing politics with the UK's entire future instead.

Yay unicorns .

 

You say it's not impossible to leave.

See that shit you posted it's still remain or no deal.

 

Honestly .

 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, jake said:

 

Being better educated does not make you wiser.

 

 

In the vast majority of cases, oh yes it does. Do you have kids? If you do, or if you do in the future, do remind them not to go to school, and not to go to university if they have the chance, because "life experience" is so much more important and is bound to make them far more knowledgeable and informed. 

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

On yesterday's big news about the legal advice I watched the BBC's attempt to show the shocks revealed by the publication. Nothing surprised me in the slightest.

 

But as someone involved in negotiations for 30 years I would have been appalled at the idea of my legal advice being published for my opponents/counterparties to read.

 

Has that great democratic institution the EU Parliament succeed in (or even tried to) see the EU Commission's legal advice on the Brexit transition deal?

 

Parliament voted to see the full legal advice.    The government didn't bother to oppose the vote.      Parliament is absolutely sovereign and was defied.     End of story.

 

The whole of parliament needs to be included to deliver something out of this crisis.     Treating everyone else as opponents is what got the government into this quagmire.     The end of another story.

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

That's not an answer. We're talking about something a lot more important than those two examples. Yet we have no protections at all for a decision which, as my boss put it the day after the referendum "nobody had the knowledge to vote on".

Since no-one knows the outcome of negotiations on the trading relationship after the  May Deal transition period, what knowledge are we or MPs in a position to vote on now?

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I can't remember what your famous dossier was called, from which you were able to call up anything anyone had ever posted in the last two decades. I have no idea what my "hilarious citing of Switzerland" was.

 

To be fair, I'd have put it out of my mind too if I were in your shoes, given how justifiably ridiculed you were:

 

 

It was on a different thread about Brexit though. My bad.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

Parliament voted to see the full legal advice.    The government didn't bother to oppose the vote.    

 

This is the key. The government voted for something it then refused to comply with. That's contempt of Parliament.

[jake]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

In the vast majority of cases, oh yes it does. Do you have kids? If you do, or if you do in the future, do remind them not to go to school, and not to go to university if they have the chance, because "life experience" is so much more important and is bound to make them far more knowledgeable and informed. 

Really.

So the labour movement formed by poorly educated people has no validity

[shaun.lawson]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

Yay unicorns .

 

You say it's not impossible to leave.

See that shit you posted it's still remain or no deal.

 

Honestly .

 

 

No Jake. It's Remain or Leave. If you don't understand what I posted, that's your problem, not mine.

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

In the vast majority of cases, oh yes it does. Do you have kids? If you do, or if you do in the future, do remind them not to go to school, and not to go to university if they have the chance, because "life experience" is so much more important and is bound to make them far more knowledgeable and informed. 

I would certainly educate them not to dismiss the views of less educated people as less worthy.

 

[Victorian]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

This is the key. The government voted for something it then refused to comply with. That's contempt of Parliament.

 

It's quite staggering that this needs to be explained to him.     Yet on he blindly rumbles.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, jake said:

Really.

So the labour movement formed by poorly educated people has no validity

 

It has plenty. However, said labour movement want a fairer country for everyone, in which everyone can pursue their dreams, and in which parents will want their children and grandchildren to have better lives than they do. The most natural of all human desires.

 

Do you think their kids and grandkids shouldn't go to school and shouldn't want to go to university if they have the chance? Do tell.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Since no-one knows the outcome of negotiations on the trading relationship after the  May Deal transition period, what knowledge are we or MPs in a position to vote on now?

 

 

 

We - ie. Parliament - are in a position to vote on the May deal now. And we - ie. Parliament or, perhaps, the whole country, should be in a position to say "this is all clearly far much more trouble than it's worth, it's utter lunacy, so let's stay".

 

We certainly know an absolute shedload more about leaving the EU and its consequences than we did two-and-a-half years ago. 

[jake]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

No Jake. It's Remain or Leave. If you don't understand what I posted, that's your problem, not mine.

I understand perfectly.

It's you who is confused.

You say we can't leave with no deal.

I asked how you would do this and this is your well educated answer.

 

Really Shaun you would think you could provide s9mething more than unicorns.

 

 

[manaliveits105]

Whilst the Labour Party has the Marx brothers at the helm they can be discounted 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, jake said:

I understand perfectly.

It's you who is confused.

You say we can't leave with no deal.

I asked how you would do this and this is your well educated answer.

 

Really Shaun you would think you could provide s9mething more than unicorns.

 

 

 

No, you asked me how we could leave. I then explained how we could. Your comprehension skills are a matter for you and you alone.

[jake]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It has plenty. However, said labour movement want a fairer country for everyone, in which everyone can pursue their dreams, and in which parents will want their children and grandchildren to have better lives than they do. The most natural of all human desires.

 

Do you think their kids and grandkids shouldn't go to school and shouldn't want to go to university if they have the chance? Do tell.

Do you think the EU will provide that or national government?

But back to my point .

If better education makes a better person then surely that means you support the elite.

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

No, you asked me how we could leave. I then explained how we could. Your comprehension skills are a matter for you and you alone.

You posted a pile of shite that the EU would never agree to.

 

Your c9mpprehension of reality is letting you down

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, jake said:

Do you think the EU will provide that or national government?

But back to my point .

If better education makes a better person then surely that means you support the elite.

 

 

No, it means I support better education for all. If you think better education for all is an 'elitist' position, there's clearly no hope for you at all.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, jake said:

You posted a pile of shite that the EU would never agree to.

 

Your c9mpprehension of reality is letting you down

 

Wrong. What I posted is similar to (but better than) what Norway and Switzerland already have. In Norway's case, it's because they're part of the European Economic Area; in Switzerland's case, it's through a series of bilateral agreements with the EU.

 

In consequence, both countries have tariff-free access to the single market, both countries are part of EU freedom of movement, but neither is part of the customs union, so both have hard borders. The need to avoid a hard border in Ireland is why we should be part of a customs union.

 

If you're unaware of what Norway and Switzerland already have - if you've never heard of, for example, the EEA or the European Free Trade Association - that only further validates my point. You don't have the remotest clue what you're talking about.

[jake]

6 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

No, it means I support better education for all. If you think better education for all is an 'elitist' position, there's clearly no hope for you at all.

But surely it's evident that better education is elitist.

And that the elite positions are occupied by Oxbridge.

Not very bright are you.

The Labour movement by the way petal was not founded by Oxbridge but now it is full of former pupils.

 

Any rights in this country were hard fought for by us plebs .

You are not very clued up are you .

[Sidelight]

30 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

That's not an answer. We're talking about something a lot more important than those two examples. Yet we have no protections at all for a decision which, as my boss put it the day after the referendum "nobody had the knowledge to vote on".

I happened upon this article from 2015, titled -

“Just what is the point of the European Union?”

 

Written by a chap named Shaun Lawson, seemingly based in Uruguay and dated 16 September 2015.

Two paragraphs are quoted and a link to the article given.

 

“By the end of 2017, the British people, denied a voice within the EU for over four decades, will decide whether the UK should remain…or leave. An opening salvo.”

 

“Thatcher and the Eurosceptics were right all along. Not only are there no real advantages to Britain remaining, but the EU acts against economic prosperity, social cohesion, democracy and nation states; and step by step, is creating a continent both divided and increasingly fractious. If it had never been created, would anyone seriously now invent it? When the referendum comes, the British people should vote to leave.”

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/shaun-lawson/just-what-is-point-of-european-union

Edited December 5, 2018 by alfajambo

[jake]

8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Wrong. What I posted is similar to (but better than) what Norway and Switzerland already have. In Norway's case, it's because they're part of the European Economic Area; in Switzerland's case, it's through a series of bilateral agreements with the EU.

 

In consequence, both countries have tariff-free access to the single market, both countries are part of EU freedom of movement, but neither is part of the customs union, so both have hard borders. The need to avoid a hard border in Ireland is why we should be part of a customs union.

 

If you're unaware of what Norway and Switzerland already have - if you've never heard of, for example, the EEA or the European Free Trade Association - that only further validates my point. You don't have the remotest clue what you're talking about.

Unicorns floating through negotiations with the EU with degrees in politics .

Aye right then .

 

[jake]

You have to laugh .

[shaun.lawson]

11 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

I happened upon this article from 2015, titled -

 

“Just what is the point of the European Union?”

 

Written by a chap named Shaun Lawson, seemingly based in Uruguay and dated 16 September 2015.

 

Two paragraphs are quoted and a link to the article given.

 

“By the end of 2017, the British people, denied a voice within the EU for over four decades, will decide whether the UK should remain…or leave. An opening salvo.”

 

“Thatcher and the Eurosceptics were right all along. Not only are there no real advantages to Britain remaining, but the EU acts against economic prosperity, social cohesion, democracy and nation states; and step by step, is creating a continent both divided and increasingly fractious. If it had never been created, would anyone seriously now invent it? When the referendum comes, the British people should vote to leave.”

 

 

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/shaun-lawson/just-what-is-point-of-european-union

 

 

 

 

Yep. I too was a Leaver briefly. I'd spent 20 years and more in a country which never spoke positively about the EU, and had become very alarmed by the treatment of Ireland, Italy, and especially Greece.

 

So then I watched the referendum campaign. And it became clear to me that Leave were lying about just about everything. So my view changed. 3 months before the referendum, I was a reluctant Remainer; a month before it, I was a solid Remainer again. Anyone whose opinion about something is set in stone forever has something wrong with them IMO.

 

I still feel guilty about that article because it predicted a number of the arguments which liberal Leavers used.  And I absolutely stand by it highlighting how awful the euro is. But the UK isn't part of the euro, so it doesn't apply to us. 

 

Incidentally, Ian Dunt, who has campaigned relentlessly against this madness since the truth dawned on him? He was a Leaver too at one point. So was Owen Jones.

Edited December 5, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[shaun.lawson]

8 minutes ago, jake said:

But surely it's evident that better education is elitist.

And that the elite positions are occupied by Oxbridge.

Not very bright are you.

The Labour movement by the way petal was not founded by Oxbridge but now it is full of former pupils.

 

Any rights in this country were hard fought for by us plebs .

You are not very clued up are you .

 

Better education for all, Jake, means I believe in meritocracy. And access for all based not on wealth, but on ability. 

[shaun.lawson]

13 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

You don't have the remotest clue what you're talking about.

 

4 minutes ago, jake said:

Unicorns floating through negotiations with the EU with degrees in politics .

Aye right then .

 

 

I rest my case.

[Unknown user]

48 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

In keeping with the pantomime season ... oh no it isn't.

 

You have the weakest justification for it! "everyone knows where the SNP stands and so don't expect to hear anything very interesting" but all that means is you feel you can justify the contempt.

 

Just shy of a million Scots got themselves out to vote for the SNP and whether you like them or not, their voice deserves to be heard. 

[jake]

12 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Better education for all, Jake, means I believe in meritocracy. And access for all based not on wealth, but on ability. 

?

[jake]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

You have the weakest justification for it! "everyone knows where the SNP stands and so don't expect to hear anything very interesting" but all that means is you feel you can justify the contempt.

 

Just shy of a million Scots got themselves out to vote for the SNP and whether you like them or not, their voice deserves to be heard. 

And 1 million Scots voted for brexit.

Funny that .

 

[Unknown user]

Just now, jake said:

And 1 million Scots voted for brexit.

Funny that .

 

1.6 million against. The majority of voices in Scotland are being ignored. 

[JyTees]

1 hour ago, alfajambo said:

I happened upon this article from 2015, titled -

“Just what is the point of the European Union?”

 

Written by a chap named Shaun Lawson, seemingly based in Uruguay and dated 16 September 2015.

Two paragraphs are quoted and a link to the article given.

 

“By the end of 2017, the British people, denied a voice within the EU for over four decades, will decide whether the UK should remain…or leave. An opening salvo.”

 

“Thatcher and the Eurosceptics were right all along. Not only are there no real advantages to Britain remaining, but the EU acts against economic prosperity, social cohesion, democracy and nation states; and step by step, is creating a continent both divided and increasingly fractious. If it had never been created, would anyone seriously now invent it? When the referendum comes, the British people should vote to leave.”

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/shaun-lawson/just-what-is-point-of-european-union

 

Bravo sir! ?

[Ulysses]

[The Mighty Thor]

9 hours ago, jake said:

Bit disappointed in your post to be honest.

I don't give a single **** about skin colour.

And I couldn't give a single **** about the accusation.

 

No ****s given here either.

 

The leave campaign was run on two things. Money and racism. 

 

The money argument has been blown clean out the water from day one. There will be no extra money for the NHS or anything else for that matter as our economy will contract. Our tax take will contract.

 

Racism. Take back control. From whom?

We've controlled our own borders since the dawn of time. That the border farce is in such a shit state is down to continual underinvestment by Westminster coupled with utterly vacant policy making by home secretaries like er Theresa May.

 

What the ignorant little Englanders heard in the campaign was no more money to the Germans and no more brown faces.

All of which of course paves the way for the empire to return and 1966 and all that.

 

I listened to a phone in on 5live yesterday and it featured two rabid leave voters who almost word for word used the arguments in my last paragraph. Featuring the classics British jobs, council houses, benefit scrounging, queue jumping and of course my personal favourite 'I'm not a racist, but'

Welcome to Britain 2018.

 

 

 

 

[Justin Z]

9 hours ago, jake said:

Really.

So the labour movement formed by poorly educated people has no validity

 

Do you . . . do you actually sit there and think of the best response for missing the point entirely, sometimes, just to reach peak annoyance for people? Be honest.

 

Hardie formed labour based on his experience as a working class person from the age of 7. He also constantly educated himself throughout his life and honed his skills as a public speaker. Said James Mavor of him: "He never fell into the habits of his fellows, but identified himself rather with the intellectual and artistic proletariat than with any faction of the middle class." From a biography: "Throughout the 1870s he was involved in the process of self-education, going to night school, teaching himself shorthand and submitting short pieces for publication to the Glasgow press."

 

Note that educating himself didn't mean listening to toff arseholes like Nigel Farage spreading bullshit. It meant actually educating himself. Something you seem to have no concept of how to differentiate from propaganda suckling.

[Notts1874]

Senior cabinet members trying to get her to pull the vote on Tuesday.

[The Real Maroonblood]

20 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Senior cabinet members trying to get her to pull the vote on Tuesday.

Desperation.

 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

Senior cabinet members trying to get her to pull the vote on Tuesday.

 

I don't think that can happen. The EU / UK deal is a formal process. There are procedures agreed and I think these are legally enforceable. Vote has to happen I believe. Otherwise we leave with No Deal. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Mikey1874

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Desperation.

 

Desperate reporting by Laura Kuensberg more like. She who gave us endless days of speculation about the Tory MPs vote of no confidence a few weeks ago based  on false gossip is now "reporting" this on the basis of anonymous "senior" cabinet members gossip. Though she did at least go on to dismiss it as extremely unlikely.

And what exactly would it achieve. Defeat in the vote and Labour tables a motion of no confidence in the Government. Pull the vote ... and Labour tables a vote of no confidence. In each case the vote of no confidence would in all probability have the same result.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Ulysses]

Theresa May "offering" some kind of parliamentary lock on the backstop, something she has no authority to do and which Leave supporters have pointed out would require renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement - which she has said can't be done. 

 

She's just making crap up at this stage, and hoping nobody notices.

 

 

[doctor jambo]

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Do you . . . do you actually sit there and think of the best response for missing the point entirely, sometimes, just to reach peak annoyance for people? Be honest.

 

Hardie formed labour based on his experience as a working class person from the age of 7. He also constantly educated himself throughout his life and honed his skills as a public speaker. Said James Mavor of him: "He never fell into the habits of his fellows, but identified himself rather with the intellectual and artistic proletariat than with any faction of the middle class." From a biography: "Throughout the 1870s he was involved in the process of self-education, going to night school, teaching himself shorthand and submitting short pieces for publication to the Glasgow press."

 

Note that educating himself didn't mean listening to toff arseholes like Nigel Farage spreading bullshit. It meant actually educating himself. Something you seem to have no concept of how to differentiate from propaganda suckling.

People of all parties fail miserably to separate the "working class" from the "lumpen proletariat"

Hardie was extremely well educated,

[Mikey1874]

Debate kicks off again at 11.30am. 

 

Discussing the economy.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcparliament

[SE16 3LN]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

No ****s given here either.

 

The leave campaign was run on two things. Money and racism.  

 

The money argument has been blown clean out the water from day one. There will be no extra money for the NHS or anything else for that matter as our economy will contract. Our tax take will contract.

 

Racism. Take back control. From whom?

We've controlled our own borders since the dawn of time. That the border farce is in such a shit state is down to continual underinvestment by Westminster coupled with utterly vacant policy making by home secretaries like er Theresa May.

 

What the ignorant little Englanders heard in the campaign was no more money to the Germans and no more brown faces.

All of which of course paves the way for the empire to return and 1966 and all that.

 

I listened to a phone in on 5live yesterday and it featured two rabid leave voters who almost word for word used the arguments in my last paragraph. Featuring the classics British jobs, council houses, benefit scrounging, queue jumping and of course my personal favourite 'I'm not a racist, but'

Welcome to Britain 2018.

 

 

 

 

Its time xenophobic posts like this were exposed for what they are, bigoted drivel.

 

While a number may have voted to leave the EU on the basis of their prejudice, many did so because they see the development of the EU super state as part of the development of Global capitalism which serves to do nothing but encourage increasing wealth gaps between individuals, nations and continents. It is exploitative and racist by its very nature. 

 

Your hatred of the "little Englander" clouds your judgement on his one and exposes your own prejudice.

 

[jambo89]

48 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Its time xenophobic posts like this were exposed for what they are, bigoted drivel.

 

While a number may have voted to leave the EU on the basis of their prejudice, many did so because they see the development of the EU super state as part of the development of Global capitalism which serves to do nothing but encourage increasing wealth gaps between individuals, nations and continents. It is exploitative and racist by its very nature. 

 

Your hatred of the "little Englander" clouds your judgement on his one and exposes your own prejudice.

 

 

This sums up my thoughts on the whole situation pretty well and why I voted leave. I see that TTIP has not yet been killed off!

 

Some of the posters on here are the type of people who are offended when the reverse is posed at them regarding Scottish independence I.e. vote for independence because they hate English people. 

 

I voted leave and and voted for independence. I don’t hate England or Europe but according to some posters in this thread, that is the only explanation.

Edited December 6, 2018 by jambo89

[SE16 3LN]

6 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

 

This sums up my thoughts on the whole situation pretty well and why I voted leave. I see that TTIP has not yet been killed off!

 

Some of the posters on here are the type of people who are offended when the reverse is posed at them regarding Scottish independence I.e. vote for independence because they hate English people. 

 

I voted leave and and voted for independence. I don’t hate England or Europe but according to some posters in this thread, that is the only explanation.

Perfectly valid position to take.

[Francis Albert]

50 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Its time xenophobic posts like this were exposed for what they are, bigoted drivel.

 

While a number may have voted to leave the EU on the basis of their prejudice, many did so because they see the development of the EU super state as part of the development of Global capitalism which serves to do nothing but encourage increasing wealth gaps between individuals, nations and continents. It is exploitative and racist by its very nature. 

 

Your hatred of the "little Englander" clouds your judgement on his one and exposes your own prejudice.

 

The only references to "brown people" I have read have been by Remainers. I don't really understand why Remainers find a more diverse and in all probability less "white" or "more brown"  immigration policy based on qualifications and merit rather than based on nationality so objectionable.

I haven't seen much criticism from Leavers of the May deal in terms of its impact on immigration despite the fact that it is clearly far from "racist" - more the opposite in fact.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

Its time xenophobic posts like this were exposed for what they are, bigoted drivel.

 

While a number may have voted to leave the EU on the basis of their prejudice, many did so because they see the development of the EU super state as part of the development of Global capitalism which serves to do nothing but encourage increasing wealth gaps between individuals, nations and continents. It is exploitative and racist by its very nature. 

 

Your hatred of the "little Englander" clouds your judgement on his one and exposes your own prejudice.

 

 

Xenophobic? perhaps you could indulge me by explaining that one?

 

I'm quite sure that there was a miniscule number of leave voters who voted on the basis of not wanting to be part of the capitalist superstate, however metaphorically speaking you could put them in a phone box.

 

The reality, like it or not, is the Leave campaign was fought on immigration and money, namely funding to the EU. That was and is to this day what ministers and Brexiteers batter on about. Taking back control of our borders and our money. May said it again this week. Parrot fashion.

 

I pity the misty eyed, imperialist types, the little Englanders. The world has passed them by and what we're witnessing is the death throes of that type of backward thinking. About time too.