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jake
16 minutes ago, Boris said:

It’s not the guardian that has “betrayed” this no deal vision that Farage aspires to.

 

Only people you can blame for this crypto fascism are the crypto fascists!

So you are now equating Brexit with people secretly wanting a fascist regime ?

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Boris
1 hour ago, jake said:

So you are now equating Brexit with people secretly wanting a fascist regime ?

No. Not at all.

 

Farage and his entourage I have serious concerns over. 

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Boris
1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

I think most of the blame lies with the 85% of MPs who voted to hold the referendum and in almost three years have failed to agree on ANY form of Brexit within the huge spectrum from hardest to softest.

 

(And comparing Farage and Rees-Mogg to Hitler is almost as silly as comparing Corbyn to Stalin)

So not the guardian then.

 

Who mentioned Rees mogg?

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Francis Albert
23 minutes ago, Boris said:

So not the guardian then.

 

Who mentioned Rees mogg?

Yes the Guardian and  others who have strongly supported those who want to scupper the referendum vote. And I mentioned Rees Mogg ... and Corbyn ... to make a point about the essentially trivialising Guardian article.

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The Mighty Thor
38 minutes ago, Boris said:

No. Not at all.

 

Farage and his entourage I have serious concerns over. 

Farage is a vox-pop fascist.

He's full of shit with absolutely no answers to anything. However he plays to a very large audience because he hits their key notes, its somebody else's fault, brown faces, empire 2.0 etc.

He'd shit himself if he ever had to deliver on anything he chunters on about.

 

I have concerns too, but with the MSM that are giving him and his ilk a free ride. 

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Cade

Crowdfunded case against BoJo for misconduct in a public office passes the first court hearing and will be taken to the next hearing on the 23rd may.

 

This case is essentially sensuring him over the lies told during the Brexit campaign.

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
7 hours ago, IMac said:

please supply details. I follow this rather closely and the only case I can come up with is when labour changed its position at the last minute, however the lib dem votes wouldn't have made a difference due to labour rebels....

It was about a year ago, Cable was at a dinner in Exeter (IIRC) and Farron was absent, too. Not long after they started going on about being the party for remaining.

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jake
3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Farage is a vox-pop fascist.

He's full of shit with absolutely no answers to anything. However he plays to a very large audience because he hits their key notes, its somebody else's fault, brown faces, empire 2.0 etc.

He'd shit himself if he ever had to deliver on anything he chunters on about.

 

I have concerns too, but with the MSM that are giving him and his ilk a free ride. 

I agree Farage only really performs specifically on the EU.

And some of his rhetoric on that obviously as a leave voter I appreciate.

 

I would never vote for him though .

 

The brown faces empire chat is chronic .

From both sides of the argument.

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The Mighty Thor
7 hours ago, jake said:

 

The brown faces empire chat is chronic .

From both sides of the argument.

You might not like it but that was the whole basis of the original leave campaign and it is the platform of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon, UKIP and an increasing number of Tory right wingers.

Taking back control. Putting the great back into Britain etc. Its the kind of vacuous meaningless pish that put Trump in the White House because it resonates with idiots. It will definitely resonate with British idiots. 

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The Real Maroonblood
12 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You might not like it but that was the whole basis of the original leave campaign and it is the platform of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon, UKIP and an increasing number of Tory right wingers.

Taking back control. Putting the great back into Britain etc. Its the kind of vacuous meaningless pish that put Trump in the White House because it resonates with idiots. It will definitely resonate with British idiots. 

:spoton:

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jake
5 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You might not like it but that was the whole basis of the original leave campaign and it is the platform of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon, UKIP and an increasing number of Tory right wingers.

Taking back control. Putting the great back into Britain etc. Its the kind of vacuous meaningless pish that put Trump in the White House because it resonates with idiots. It will definitely resonate with British idiots. 

Cant be arsed tbh .

No point .

This is the fall back argument of remainers.

 

Thick and racist.

Like I said as chronic as the Make America great stuff etc.

 

The remain politicians who peddle this lazy soundbite usually do so when their arguments to remain are met with pertinent queries.

 

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jake

Unemployment figures at their lowest for 40 years.

 

Is that because we are still in the EU or is it because we are stockpiling jobs?

 

 

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

Will self was correct. 

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Boris
22 minutes ago, jake said:

Cant be arsed tbh .

No point .

This is the fall back argument of remainers.

 

Thick and racist.

Like I said as chronic as the Make America great stuff etc.

 

The remain politicians who peddle this lazy soundbite usually do so when their arguments to remain are met with pertinent queries.

 

 

I think you are conflating the concept of Brexit in general, with the approach taken to Brexit by the likes of Farage.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but what is so appealing about the Farage version of Brexit that you seem happy to accept?

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Pans Jambo
6 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You might not like it but that was the whole basis of the original leave campaign and it is the platform of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon, UKIP and an increasing number of Tory right wingers.

Taking back control. Putting the great back into Britain etc. Its the kind of vacuous meaningless pish that put Trump in the White House because it resonates with idiots. It will definitely resonate with British idiots. 

Boom!

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Pans Jambo
39 minutes ago, jake said:

Unemployment figures at their lowest for 40 years.

 

Is that because we are still in the EU or is it because we are stockpiling jobs?

 

 

Could be wrong but is being classed as “employed” anything over 2 hours paid work per week?

if true then I’m surprised theres hardly any unemployed at all. 

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AlimOzturk
4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Could be wrong but is being classed as “employed” anything over 2 hours paid work per week?

if true then I’m surprised theres hardly any unemployed at all. 

 

The Tories have manipulated the stats with Zero hour contracts to paper over their shocking enjoyment record. 

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Smithee
45 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Will self was correct. 

Was thinking the same thing

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ri Alban
1 hour ago, jake said:

Unemployment figures at their lowest for 40 years.

 

Is that because we are still in the EU or is it because we are stockpiling jobs?

 

 

1 hr a week counts as employed. Jake, open yer eyes, the Tories and SNP governments manipulate the figures. All those poor feckers on 0hrs or gig economy slaves. But hey, the EU this and that. Try our governments allowing firms like Amazon to rip people off.

 

Yer right, I can't be arsed either.

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ri Alban
53 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I think you are conflating the concept of Brexit in general, with the approach taken to Brexit by the likes of Farage.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but what is so appealing about the Farage version of Brexit that you seem happy to accept?

His big feck off billboard. Could be wrong.

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Francis Albert
15 hours ago, jake said:

I agree Farage only really performs specifically on the EU.

And some of his rhetoric on that obviously as a leave voter I appreciate.

 

I would never vote for him though .

 

The brown faces empire chat is chronic .

From both sides of the argument.

As an unenthusiastic Remainer I nevertheless think the current No.1 priority for the UK is to deliver Brexit in some form because otherwise I think our politics and democracy will be irretrievably damaged and the likes of Farage and his ilk (who compared to some similar figures in Europe never made any impact with voters in domestic politics until now) will become a strong force.

Like you I could not stomach voting for Farage but struggle to think what the alternative is if you believe that Brexit should be delivered as a priority.

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Jambo-Jimbo
1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

1 hr a week counts as employed. Jake, open yer eyes, the Tories and SNP governments manipulate the figures. All those poor feckers on 0hrs or gig economy slaves. But hey, the EU this and that. Try our governments allowing firms like Amazon to rip people off.

 

Yer right, I can't be arsed either.

 

Massive National Insurance time bomb going to go off in the years to come, all those folks who haven't paid enough (any) NI won't get a state pension or feck all else for that matter, sad thing is most won't realise it until it's way way too late to do anything about it.

 

But's that's a dicussion for another time and on another thread.

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Lord BJ

Perception is a very important thing that people often ignore. I think a lot of people do that with the Farrage appeal.

 

People look at at one aspect of his campaign immigration and pretend that’s was all he was about; it wasn’t.

 

Farrage main message, wasn’t actually immigration, it was about the UK being better off. He quite successfully sells a vision of change that is better that the current. Now I personally think his vision is nonsense. However, he sells the brighter tomorrow, through a variety of simple answers to complex problems, reduction of immigration is one. That’s appealing to people. 

 

I suggest that the majority of his supporters are not buying into a white supremicist uk, but a better tomorrow. Who knows they might be right, as despite claims to the contrary we don’t know.

 

You might see a right winged, self publicist, who is trying to manipulate himself into a very tidy living. His supporters/voters see someone who is offering a way to a better life than existing.  . 

 

If you focus on his immigration/racist position your really are missing what attracted people to him. 

 

People fail to target his arguments and end up attacking him personally. They just harden his support, this is not unusual around politics trump, salmond and corbyn supporters have shown similar tendencies. 

 

I’m a remainer and not a fan of farrage. Just think people in main misunderstand why he’s been successful. 

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Francis Albert
58 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Perception is a very important thing that people often ignore. I think a lot of people do that with the Farrage appeal.

 

People look at at one aspect of his campaign immigration and pretend that’s was all he was about; it wasn’t.

 

Farrage main message, wasn’t actually immigration, it was about the UK being better off. He quite successfully sells a vision of change that is better that the current. Now I personally think his vision is nonsense. However, he sells the brighter tomorrow, through a variety of simple answers to complex problems, reduction of immigration is one. That’s appealing to people. 

 

I suggest that the majority of his supporters are not buying into a white supremicist uk, but a better tomorrow. Who knows they might be right, as despite claims to the contrary we don’t know.

 

You might see a right winged, self publicist, who is trying to manipulate himself into a very tidy living. His supporters/voters see someone who is offering a way to a better life than existing.  . 

 

If you focus on his immigration/racist position your really are missing what attracted people to him. 

 

People fail to target his arguments and end up attacking him personally. They just harden his support, this is not unusual around politics trump, salmond and corbyn supporters have shown similar tendencies. 

 

I’m a remainer and not a fan of farrage. Just think people in main misunderstand why he’s been successful. 

Excellent post. A recent poll in the Guardian suggested people in the UK are more tolerant of immigration than in other major EU countries including Germany, France, Italy and Sweden. The idea that 52% of the referendum votes or most of them were a result of anti-immigration or racism ( although of course a factor) is wildly simplistic. Other more blatantly anti-immigration and racist groups than UKIP,  like the BNP and EDL have made no electoral impact in the UK. The pattern of voting, with Leave strongest in the regions of the England and Wales which have been "left behind" - the North and North East of England, parts of the Midlands, the Welsh valleys, the Medway towns and so on - all areas which have seen our membership of the EU coincide with the destruction of much of their traditional sources of employment. Of course this is not straight cause and effect but it is certainly consistent with a view that people voted for "something better".

 

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jake
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

Perception is a very important thing that people often ignore. I think a lot of people do that with the Farrage appeal.

 

People look at at one aspect of his campaign immigration and pretend that’s was all he was about; it wasn’t.

 

Farrage main message, wasn’t actually immigration, it was about the UK being better off. He quite successfully sells a vision of change that is better that the current. Now I personally think his vision is nonsense. However, he sells the brighter tomorrow, through a variety of simple answers to complex problems, reduction of immigration is one. That’s appealing to people. 

 

I suggest that the majority of his supporters are not buying into a white supremicist uk, but a better tomorrow. Who knows they might be right, as despite claims to the contrary we don’t know.

 

You might see a right winged, self publicist, who is trying to manipulate himself into a very tidy living. His supporters/voters see someone who is offering a way to a better life than existing.  . 

 

If you focus on his immigration/racist position your really are missing what attracted people to him. 

 

People fail to target his arguments and end up attacking him personally. They just harden his support, this is not unusual around politics trump, salmond and corbyn supporters have shown similar tendencies. 

 

I’m a remainer and not a fan of farrage. Just think people in main misunderstand why he’s been successful. 

And as much as I want Brexit I do not want Farage Robinson etc.

Really good post BJ. 

 

And nailing the polarity .

 

Edited by jake

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jake
2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Excellent post. A recent poll in the Guardian suggested people in the UK are more tolerant of immigration than in other major EU countries including Germany, France, Italy and Sweden. The idea that 52% of the referendum votes or most of them were a result of anti-immigration or racism ( although of course a factor) is wildly simplistic. Other more blatantly anti-immigration and racist groups than UKIP,  like the BNP and EDL have made no electoral impact in the UK. The pattern of voting, with Leave strongest in the regions of the England and Wales which have been "left behind" - the North and North East of England, parts of the Midlands, the Welsh valleys, the Medway towns and so on - all areas which have seen our membership of the EU coincide with the destruction of much of their traditional sources of employment. Of course this is not straight cause and effect but it is certainly consistent with a view that people voted for "something better".

 

Not only polls Francis but actual representation in UK politics .

And the Brexit result fills me with hope.

 

Although those who wail racist Thickos will struggle with that concept .

Especially those who think they argue from a left perspective.

 

 

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jake
Posted (edited)

Wrong thread

 

Edited by jake

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jake

So most forecast from independent experts place the EU as doomed to fail.

 

 

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ri Alban
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

Perception is a very important thing that people often ignore. I think a lot of people do that with the Farrage appeal.

 

People look at at one aspect of his campaign immigration and pretend that’s was all he was about; it wasn’t.

 

Farrage main message, wasn’t actually immigration, it was about the UK being better off. He quite successfully sells a vision of change that is better that the current. Now I personally think his vision is nonsense. However, he sells the brighter tomorrow, through a variety of simple answers to complex problems, reduction of immigration is one. That’s appealing to people. 

 

I suggest that the majority of his supporters are not buying into a white supremicist uk, but a better tomorrow. Who knows they might be right, as despite claims to the contrary we don’t know.

 

You might see a right winged, self publicist, who is trying to manipulate himself into a very tidy living. His supporters/voters see someone who is offering a way to a better life than existing.  . 

 

If you focus on his immigration/racist position your really are missing what attracted people to him. 

 

People fail to target his arguments and end up attacking him personally. They just harden his support, this is not unusual around politics trump, salmond and corbyn supporters have shown similar tendencies. 

 

I’m a remainer and not a fan of farrage. Just think people in main misunderstand why he’s been successful. 

Just hit him with facts and he folds. The WTO thing was a belter on QT last week.

He's a fud of a man, who thinks people don't think racists wear suits.

Edited by ri Alban

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Boris
14 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

Perception is a very important thing that people often ignore. I think a lot of people do that with the Farrage appeal.

 

People look at at one aspect of his campaign immigration and pretend that’s was all he was about; it wasn’t.

 

Farrage main message, wasn’t actually immigration, it was about the UK being better off. He quite successfully sells a vision of change that is better that the current. Now I personally think his vision is nonsense. However, he sells the brighter tomorrow, through a variety of simple answers to complex problems, reduction of immigration is one. That’s appealing to people. 

 

I suggest that the majority of his supporters are not buying into a white supremicist uk, but a better tomorrow. Who knows they might be right, as despite claims to the contrary we don’t know.

 

You might see a right winged, self publicist, who is trying to manipulate himself into a very tidy living. His supporters/voters see someone who is offering a way to a better life than existing.  . 

 

If you focus on his immigration/racist position your really are missing what attracted people to him. 

 

People fail to target his arguments and end up attacking him personally. They just harden his support, this is not unusual around politics trump, salmond and corbyn supporters have shown similar tendencies. 

 

I’m a remainer and not a fan of farrage. Just think people in main misunderstand why he’s been successful. 

 

In the main, I agree with you!

 

Where I am coming from isn't saying all who support Brexit are racists, far from it.

 

What concerns me is that by getting the votes of these discontented, it opens the door to the, what I think at least, the uglier elements of Farage and his entourage.

 

For example, not saying what policies will be until after the vote - why on earth would anyone vote for someone effectively giving them a blank cheque?

 

However, when he is confronted on policy or challenge his arguments, he just lies or deflects.  The changing of his goalposts - simply brexit to no deal. He's a slippery customer!  Yet a narrative of betrayal is allowed to permeate, thus feeding the discontent.

 

The language used in the media, print mainly, is off the charts.  "Traitors", "Saboteurs" etc is bordering on the fanatical (imo).

 

But I do agree that the mainstream (for want of a word) parties, in rUK at least, have lost an understanding of what the people want/need.  A recent report (iirc) highlighted the growing disparity in wealth recently and how more polarised our population is.  Something needs to give...but entrusting the likes of Farage to do it, or at least set the agenda, is worrying.

 

 

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Francis Albert
1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

In the main, I agree with you!

 

Where I am coming from isn't saying all who support Brexit are racists, far from it.

 

What concerns me is that by getting the votes of these discontented, it opens the door to the, what I think at least, the uglier elements of Farage and his entourage.

 

For example, not saying what policies will be until after the vote - why on earth would anyone vote for someone effectively giving them a blank cheque?

 

However, when he is confronted on policy or challenge his arguments, he just lies or deflects.  The changing of his goalposts - simply brexit to no deal. He's a slippery customer!  Yet a narrative of betrayal is allowed to permeate, thus feeding the discontent.

 

The language used in the media, print mainly, is off the charts.  "Traitors", "Saboteurs" etc is bordering on the fanatical (imo).

 

But I do agree that the mainstream (for want of a word) parties, in rUK at least, have lost an understanding of what the people want/need.  A recent report (iirc) highlighted the growing disparity in wealth recently and how more polarised our population is.  Something needs to give...but entrusting the likes of Farage to do it, or at least set the agenda, is worrying.

 

 

Part of the problem is that while that would once have made him stand out from most mainstream politicians too many of them today seem to match that description.

 

(The current "narrative of betrayal" in the Daily Mail by the way is now directed at the Rees-Mogg ERG hard Brexiters).

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Boris
14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Part of the problem is that while that would once have made him stand out from most mainstream politicians too many of them today seem to match that description.

 

(The current "narrative of betrayal" in the Daily Mail by the way is now directed at the Rees-Mogg ERG hard Brexiters).

 

Ha!  I think you have a point there!

 

Yes, I see that the Mail has reigned itself in a bit, yet were May's deal to somehow go through, the cry of betrayal from ERG etc would be deafening.

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Lord BJ
1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

In the main, I agree with you!

 

Where I am coming from isn't saying all who support Brexit are racists, far from it.

 

However, there is a continue focus of the small group. It’s counterproductive and remainers voters focus on immigration much more than leavers have.

 

Whilst far too many equate wanting a reduce immigration as racists, which is complete nonsense.

Quote

 

What concerns me is that by getting the votes of these discontented, it opens the door to the, what I think at least, the uglier elements of Farage and his entourage.

 

For example, not saying what policies will be until after the vote - why on earth would anyone vote for someone effectively giving them a blank cheque?

 

You give farrage more power than he has. He campaigned to leave, however, he has no power to influence how brexit would be. That would be government of the days responsibilty; which they seem to have abducted!

 

His vision of of the future brexit has about credence to it as mine. It’s not enforceable.

 

So no one voting for him was voting to give him a blank cheque. That’s a false narrative. 

 

Quote

 

However, when he is confronted on policy or challenge his arguments, he just lies or deflects.  The changing of his goalposts - simply brexit to no deal. He's a slippery customer!  Yet a narrative of betrayal is allowed to permeate, thus feeding the discontent.

 

Yes he he does but that’s not unusual for politicians of pretty much any persuasion. 

 

I imagine Ines if you voted to leave, they feel betrayed and they probably have a valid point.

 

Politicians feed of negative emotions. 

 

Quote

 

The language used in the media, print mainly, is off the charts.  "Traitors", "Saboteurs" etc is bordering on the fanatical (imo).

 

Again this is not unusual in politics. You yourself use very emotive language at times. You know why you do it n the same ways politicians do.

 

 

Quote

 

But I do agree that the mainstream (for want of a word) parties, in rUK at least, have lost an understanding of what the people want/need.  A recent report (iirc) highlighted the growing disparity in wealth recently and how more polarised our population is.  Something needs to give...but entrusting the likes of Farage to do it, or at least set the agenda, is worrying.

 

 

 

People are entrusting farrage with nothing. They suppprted a campaign to leave uk. They enable or entrusted farrage to do nothing. 

 

I suggest your missing why people people voted for him. You don’t need to like him, but important to understand it’s not your perception of what he is or about is why people are attracted to him. The reasons are different.

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Cade

1922 Committee telling May "set a leaving date or we'll remove you right now"

May loyalists threatening to hold a vote of no confidence in the 1922 Committee itself.

 

Tories ripping themselves to bits.

 

:pleasing:

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Smithee
Just now, Cade said:

1922 Committee telling May "set a leaving date or we'll remove you right now"

May loyalists threatening to hold a vote of no confidence in the 1922 Committee itself.

 

Tories ripping themselves to bits.

 

:pleasing:

 

The established parties are both fecked, we're entering a period of party political realignment in lieu of actual Westminster change. 

 

The Tories will fragment, labour will fragment, the libdems will pick up some of the pieces and may even end up the single biggest party, although they'll likely be kept out of government as right wing and centrist coalitions will be more likely to form government. 

 

All just my opinion of course. 

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Francis Albert
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Ha!  I think you have a point there!

 

Yes, I see that the Mail has reigned itself in a bit, yet were May's deal to somehow go through, the cry of betrayal from ERG etc would be deafening.

From the ERG although rees-mogg has also  reined himself in a bit as far as the May/ EU deal is concerned. I think the majority of Leave voters would accept the May//EU deal as delivering Brexit and the ERG group would resume their position as a small faction within the Tory party - as with Farage their strength is exaggerated.

 

Edited by Francis Albert

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Cade

Tories will dive headlong to the Right in an attempt to combat Brexit/UKIP/other far right loons.

 

Labour will bleed votes to LibDems.

SNP will clean up in Scotland.

 

Whether or not the right wing coalition will be larger than the centre-left coalition remains to be seen.

 

But it could be that the days of single party rule in this nation are over forever.

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Boris
1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

You give farrage more power than he has. He campaigned to leave, however, he has no power to influence how brexit would be. That would be government of the days responsibilty; which they seem to have abducted!

 

His vision of of the future brexit has about credence to it as mine. It’s not enforceable.

 

I get that, however if he shouts loudly enough about it someone, somewhere may capitulate to him or (in attempt to gain traction with those who voted for the Brexit Party, adopt it.

 

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

So no one voting for him was voting to give him a blank cheque. That’s a false narrative. 

 

But if his party gets a sizeable vote, others (and I'm thinking mostly the Tories) may adopt his slant on things in an attempt to gain votes in the future.  I get that people aren't voting for these things but the politicians may think that they are!  Thus bringing these policies into the mainstream.

 

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

Yes he he does but that’s not unusual for politicians of pretty much any persuasion. 

 

I imagine Ines if you voted to leave, they feel betrayed and they probably have a valid point.

 

Politicians feed of negative emotions. 

 

Does leave naturally equate with no deal though?  Brexit Party is unequivocal as far as that goes.

 

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

Again this is not unusual in politics. You yourself use very emotive language at times. You know why you do it n the same ways politicians do.

 

There is emotive language and dangerous language, I'd say.  Politics is an emotive subject, I get that.  But festering hatred?

 

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

 

People are entrusting farrage with nothing. They suppprted a campaign to leave uk. They enable or entrusted farrage to do nothing. 

 

On Farage's terms.  Which if they win gives him a level of legitimacy.

 

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I suggest your missing why people people voted for him. You don’t need to like him, but important to understand it’s not your perception of what he is or about is why people are attracted to him. The reasons are different.

 

So why are people voting for this wee shite then?  If it is a protest against the mainstream parties then why choose Farage?

 

I get that people are unhappy, disenfranchised (or at least feel that way) from the political system, but what makes someone fall in behind a party whose leader they don't like?  That's the bit that I don't understand.  Of all the options, why his party?

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Cade

Herr Farage (I will always use this moniker for him since he got a German passport for himself right after the referendum result) offers simple solutions to complex problems.

Even though none of his solutions will work, because the issues are complex.

He bleats on about the injustices the EU has done, and yet in twenty years as an MEP has barely bothered to turn up to vote on anything, not even on fisheries policy.

He's more a persona than a functioning politician.

An act.

The Pub Landlord and Alf Garnett come to life and idolised by people who don't understand that both of those characters were satires on themselves and their own backwards views.

 

He peddles downright lies, half-truths and takes things out of context if they support his cause.

He changes his mind all the time, based purely on which way the wind of his support is blowing.

He used such dangerous language that his old party, UKIP have now become full-on, far-right, islamophobic, neo-nazis.

He's had to set up anew party because he toxified the old one so much then left when it got out of control.

He has no policies.

His new party isn't even a political party but a private company (and as such their lies should be reported as false advertising to the ASA).

 

His supporters are, in the vast majority, old and white and live in de-industrialised and rural areas.

They fetishise WW2 and the British Empire and the Royal family and the military.

They bury themselves in a dreamlike ideal of an imagined past that never really existed.

They take every word printed in the Daily Mail and Daily Express and The Sun as gospel truth.

They fear change and fear the future.

Most of their concerns and problems are as a result of internal UK policy and the fact that London and the South-East bleeds the rest of the nation dry.

The places they live only continue to survive due to EU subsidies, as the UK govt doesn't give their region enough money.

This is the UK's fault.

 

Farage is nothing but a charlatan out for personal gain.

 

His followers are desperate people, having their anger aimed at the wrong target by the media and Farage.

They deserve pity.

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Francis Albert

If you are (rightly IMO) aggrieved by the total inability of Parliament to deliver the outcome of the referendum 85% of MPs voted to hold, what are the options available to you other than the Brexit party?

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Boris
5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If you are (rightly IMO) aggrieved by the total inability of Parliament to deliver the outcome of the referendum 85% of MPs voted to hold, what are the options available to you other than the Brexit party?

 

Parliament could have delivered an outcome had May's deal been accepted.  But the ERG didn't back it.  They saw No Deal as achievable.

 

The Brexit Party are a no deal party so they would have rejected it also.

 

But people will vote for them even although they denied the UK leaving?

 

The whole thing is barmy!

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Lord BJ
19 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I get that, however if he shouts loudly enough about it someone, somewhere may capitulate to him or (in attempt to gain traction with those who voted for the Brexit Party, adopt it.

 

Will they? What’s he shouting about so loudly that a party is going to adopt?

 

All I can see him shouting about is not having left the eu. The genie is already out the bottle. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

But if his party gets a sizeable vote, others (and I'm thinking mostly the Tories) may adopt his slant on things in an attempt to gain votes in the future.  I get that people aren't voting for these things but the politicians may think that they are!  Thus bringing these policies into the mainstream.

 

If if he gets a sizeable chunk. It’s only natural look to see why it’s popular. However, that won’t be based on some racist fuelled agenda  it will be based on what appeals to people. 

 

Plus surely Ely is a sizeable chunk of people moving current thinking. That’s just democracy in action

19 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Does leave naturally equate with no deal though?  Brexit Party is unequivocal as far as that goes.

 

No has anyone ever claimed it does. Lots of different ways it can happen. However, he or his part won’t a no deal. As they thinks it’s best why shouldn’t they campaign?

 

You might not like some of his politics but he’s entitled to his view  or is only views you agree with that can be pursued 

19 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

There is emotive language and dangerous language, I'd say.  Politics is an emotive subject, I get that.  But festering hatred?

 

He no worse than many other you know how tories are talked about ffs. Politicians many who are in left indulge in this behaviours Thinking your right doesn’t give you right to use that language imo. That goes for farrage or corbyn it’s.

19 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

On Farage's terms.  Which if they win gives him a level of legitimacy.

 

 

So why are people voting for this wee shite then?  If it is a protest against the mainstream parties then why choose Farage?

 

I get that people are unhappy, disenfranchised (or at least feel that way) from the political system, but what makes someone fall in behind a party whose leader they don't like?  That's the bit that I don't understand.  Of all the options, why his party?

I explained why people voted for him. It’s for. Brighter future he managed to sell a vision thick where people would be better off 

 

same reason most people cite I guess. 

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Cade

Brexit hasn't happened entirely down to the actions of the Tories themselves.

 

They decided against forming a cross-party national convention on Brexit so the UK could all be singing from the same sheet when Article 50 was triggered.

They decided to do all the negotiating themselves, before knowing what they wanted and triggered Article 50 far too early.

They then couldn't agree internally what to negotiate, with resignations and firings in cabinet on a regular basis.

They then held a general election out of blind panic in an attempt to form one faction within the Tory party that was large enough to crush the other factions and ended up with the same factions at the same relative strength AND lost their Parliamentary majority to boot.

So now that the negotiations are concluded, they cannot get their Tory deal through Parliament coz they don't have a majority AND the Tory party still can't even agree on the deal that they themselves came up with.

 

It's nothing to do with Parliament being "traiturz".

It's 100% down to Tory hubris, arrogance and incompetence.

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Boris
2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Will they? What’s he shouting about so loudly that a party is going to adopt?

 

All I can see him shouting about is not having left the eu. The genie is already out the bottle. 

 

And once he has his mandate and the other policies are revealed?  Past form has Farage talking about privatised healthcare etc.  He's a neo-liberal so that is enough to make me worried.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

If if he gets a sizeable chunk. It’s only natural look to see why it’s popular. However, that won’t be based on some racist fuelled agenda  it will be based on what appeals to people. 

 

I'm not arguing that it is based a racist agenda that people will vote for his party.  I would agree with Will Self's comments though regards racists voting for leave.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Plus surely Ely is a sizeable chunk of people moving current thinking. That’s just democracy in action

 

Ely?  Sorry, but you've lost me there.  

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

No has anyone ever claimed it does. Lots of different ways it can happen. However, he or his part won’t a no deal. As they thinks it’s best why shouldn’t they campaign?

 

Well Farage IS claiming that leave equates to No Deal.  They can campaign on that if they wish.  And if people vote for it then that's what they are voting for.  And if they do really well, that's what they will get. 

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

You might not like some of his politics but he’s entitled to his view  or is only views you agree with that can be pursued 

 

Of course he's entitled to his views, as long as they are within the law I guess.  

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

He no worse than many other you know how tories are talked about ffs. Politicians many who are in left indulge in this behaviours Thinking your right doesn’t give you right to use that language imo. That goes for farrage or corbyn it’s.

 

Well, like I said, emotion is one thing, hatred is another.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

I explained why people voted for him. It’s for. Brighter future he managed to sell a vision thick where people would be better off 

 

same reason most people cite I guess. 

 

So, as we've ascertained previously, the brighter future that people are wanting involves a no deal brexit.  Farage has sold this vision and Farage has told people a vote for his party is a vote for no deal.  Anyone is entitled to hold this view if they so desire.

 

Equally, I'm entitled to think anyone holding that view is daft.

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Francis Albert
1 hour ago, Cade said:

 

 

His followers are desperate people, having their anger aimed at the wrong target by the media and Farage.

They deserve pity.

His followers deserve nothing but contempt. They are however a tiny minority of those who voted Leave, who are routinely tarred with the same brush.

And I can understand why aggrieved Leave voters would vote for him in an election which in practice can only be a protest vote. Those elected will have no say on how we leave or if we leave. Unless and until Parliament can agree on an alternative way of leaving, leaving with no deal is the only way of delivering on the answer given to the simple question put to the electorate. 

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Cade

BoJo confirms he'll be standing in the Tory leadership contest

 

 

doomed.png

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Lord BJ
34 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

My last post was written when I was doing my daily cardio. So it probably didn’t flow as wanted lol. 

 

 

Quote

And once he has his mandate and the other policies are revealed?  Past form has Farage talking about privatised healthcare etc.  He's a neo-liberal so that is enough to make me worried.

 

Well once his other policies are revealed people will just choose is they want to vote for him. 

 

He can campaign for privatising nhs if he wants.  He can campaign to decrimilise drugs and tax them. That was one of his previous policies. I’d vote for that, I really like that policy. Wouldn’t make me a farrage supporter!

 

I’ll be honest this, just smacks of not liking his politics. That’s isnt justification to demonise him or his supporters.

 

Quote

 

I'm not arguing that it is based a racist agenda that people will vote for his party.  I would agree with Will Self's comments though regards racists voting for leave.

 

Do you, I think his comment was irrelevant nonsense but amusing. Like most his stuff. It was also undoubtably said to agonise and get a reaction.

 

Though I know bigot so and so’s who voted remain. But economics trumped their personal prejudices. Ahh money the greater enabler of equality lol

 

Anyway over half the voters voted to leave. So 52% of country voted to leVe. So how much of the country is racist? 

 

Majority or minority of those voted to leave. Is it tiny minority? (I would actually like you to quantify as it does interest me your view of how many people were voted out of racist intentions)

 

As as an aside racists are entitled to vote and it has to go somewhere I guess. Bit like the anti semites flooding to labour at the moment 😉 (hows that for whatboutsry)

 

Quote

 

Ely?  Sorry, but you've lost me there.  

 

Well that’s probably because I was sweating too much from cardio. I’ll like to work hard and probably shouldn’t have been multi tasking as neither my cardio or post benefited from it!

 

My point was if people vote for policies, isn’t democracy at work people selecting what they want.

Quote

 

Well Farage IS claiming that leave equates to No Deal.  They can campaign on that if they wish.  And if people vote for it then that's what they are voting for.  And if they do really well, that's what they will get. 

Actually now think we’re slightly talking at cross purposes 

 

Anyway.......

 

Is he or is he actually saying that as the

government has ****ed about so much that he wants out now as he believes is best for the country? 

 

Well if people votes go for a no deal in sufficient numbers isn’t that what we should get? 

 

I dont want it but that’s not how democracy really works, sort off. 

 

Quote

 

Of course he's entitled to his views, as long as they are within the law I guess.  

 

 

Well, like I said, emotion is one thing, hatred is another.

 

He hasnt broken the law has he in spouting his views? I genuinely don’t know but not aware of him being done for anything. 

 

I despise that type of language but he ain’t alone. In general I think people could do with tempering the emotive language as emotive language does appeal to more reactionary people.

 

Quote

 

So, as we've ascertained previously, the brighter future that people are wanting involves a no deal brexit.  Farage has sold this vision and Farage has told people a vote for his party is a vote for no deal.  Anyone is entitled to hold this view if they so desire.

 

Equally, I'm entitled to think anyone holding that view is daft.

 

Absolutely you can believe it’s daft. But it’s maybe more important to understand why that appeals to people. That information is useful. 

 

Just thinking their daft/racist shows a degree of arrogance (due to belief only their view can be right) that does people a disservices as they not trying to understand other perceptive. 

 

Farrage in in many ways is a product of the failures of our existing politics. 

 

My point is merely what other see when they look at farrage and his party isn’t even remotely close to what you see. His supporters almost see the reverse of you. 

 

Anyway, we’ll go round in ever decreasing circles to this so not sure I can add much more. Anyways as always a pleasure👍

 

 

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Boris
2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

My last post was written when I was doing my daily cardio. So it probably didn’t flow as wanted lol. 

 

A mental image I'd rather not have had 😵

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Well once his other policies are revealed people will just choose is they want to vote for him. 

 

He can campaign for privatising nhs if he wants.  He can campaign to decrimilise drugs and tax them. That was one of his previous policies. I’d vote for that, I really like that policy. Wouldn’t make me a farrage supporter!

 

I’ll be honest this, just smacks of not liking his politics. That’s isnt justification to demonise him or his supporters.

 

I can demonise him for his politics as he's saying this is what I will do.  Less so the ordinary voter.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

Do you, I think his comment was irrelevant nonsense but amusing. Like most his stuff. It was also undoubtably said to agonise and get a reaction.

 

Off of Francoise, for sure.  And it did!  Hilarious stuff.  Based on nothing but my gut feeling, I tend to agree with Self.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Though I know bigot so and so’s who voted remain. But economics trumped their personal prejudices. Ahh money the greater enabler of equality lol

 

Everyone has their price I suppose.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Anyway over half the voters voted to leave. So 52% of country voted to leVe. So how much of the country is racist? 

 

Majority or minority of those voted to leave. Is it tiny minority? (I would actually like you to quantify as it does interest me your view of how many people were voted out of racist intentions)

 

I have no idea!  I'd hope it was a small minority.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

As as an aside racists are entitled to vote and it has to go somewhere I guess. Bit like the anti semites flooding to labour at the moment 😉 (hows that for whatboutsry)

 

Touche!

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Well that’s probably because I was sweating too much from cardio. I’ll like to work hard and probably shouldn’t have been multi tasking as neither my cardio or post benefited from it!

 

See first reply.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

My point was if people vote for policies, isn’t democracy at work people selecting what they want.

 

Oh, I can't disagree with that.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Actually now think we’re slightly talking at cross purposes 

 

Anyway.......

 

Is he or is he actually saying that as the

government has ****ed about so much that he wants out now as he believes is best for the country? 

 

Again, I can't say, but my money would be on wanting out/no deal from the start.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Well if people votes go for a no deal in sufficient numbers isn’t that what we should get? 

 

I dont want it but that’s not how democracy really works, sort off. 

 

Don't disagree.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

He hasnt broken the law has he in spouting his views? I genuinely don’t know but not aware of him being done for anything. 

 

I'm not saying he has - I think it was more in relation to the headlines in the press I was referring, although the poster of the refugees was quite close to the knuckle, given the uncanny likeness to Nazi propaganda.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I despise that type of language but he ain’t alone. In general I think people could do with tempering the emotive language as emotive language does appeal to more reactionary people.

 

Fair point.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Absolutely you can believe it’s daft. But it’s maybe more important to understand why that appeals to people. That information is useful. 

 

Just thinking their daft/racist shows a degree of arrogance (due to belief only their view can be right) that does people a disservices as they not trying to understand other perceptive. 

 

If someone could explain the appeal then I'd be all ears.  I don't think all leave voters are stupid and/or racist, I (hope!) I'm not saying that at all.  I just really can't get the attraction.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Farrage in in many ways is a product of the failures of our existing politics. 

 

My point is merely what other see when they look at farrage and his party isn’t even remotely close to what you see. His supporters almost see the reverse of you. 

 

Again, I'll not disagree with that.  I just want to understand why.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Anyway, we’ll go round in ever decreasing circles to this so not sure I can add much more. Anyways as always a pleasure👍

 

 

 

No worries. Until the next time! :thumb:

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Francis Albert
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Cade said:

BoJo confirms he'll be standing in the Tory leadership contest

 

 

doomed.png

There was a time (not all that long ago) when serious politicians waited until there was a vacancy before declaring themselves, and, even when there was one, often made at least a show of reluctance to push themselves forward ("if elected I will serve").

But then serious politicians today need the support of Extinction Rebellion.

Edited by Francis Albert

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Cade

"The Tories have given up governing the country, they’ve given up campaigning in the European elections and they’ve given up even pretending to support their leader.

The only thing we’ve learned from today’s latest fudge from the 1922 Committee is that Theresa May is so incompetent that she can’t even resign properly!"

-Ian Blackford

 

:gok:

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