Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Don Dan]

Anyway this is about the EU and the UK staying in the EU which is what I want. 

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership_en

Every country agrees to take the euro, it's just that most put it off forever. And there's plenty of new countries joined the EU.

[AlphonseCapone]

6 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

If you look up the criteria for a country joining the EU which you’ll find on the EU web site there’s a whole list of things that need to be met first. Not to mention winning over the 27 members some of whom would not be keen on a recent independent country setting a president. 

 

I've had a quick check and look at your link. I don't see anything Scotland would struggle with or doesn't already have. I think you are referring to Spain and they've already stated they wouldn't stop an independent Scotland that leaves the UK through the proper legal mechanism from joining. They don't see it as close to the Catalonia situation where it isn't legally possible to leave Spain. I'm not aware of any other country previously having reservations. 

 

Anyway like you say this thread is about the UK and EU. 

[Don Dan]

4 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I've had a quick check and look at your link. I don't see anything Scotland would struggle with or doesn't already have. I think you are referring to Spain and they've already stated they wouldn't stop an independent Scotland that leaves the UK through the proper legal mechanism from joining. They don't see it as close to the Catalonia situation where it isn't legally possible to leave Spain. I'm not aware of any other country previously having reservations. 

 

Anyway like you say this thread is about the UK and EU. 

 

Spanish elections soon. All could change! Belgium and the Walloons! 

[Mikey1874]

 

[AlphonseCapone]

Does TM just grab a takeaway when she gets punted from the dinner discussions? 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

May can only give assurances for the behaviour of Tory MEP's, she can't give the same assurances for MEP's from other parties, as she has no control over them.

 

As for Macron, I think if he had his way, the UK would be out now, today, immediately, in part because, he is pissed off with all the fluffing about and also in part because he sees the UK as a stumbling block with what he wants to achieve with the European Project, and the quicker the UK is out the quicker he can try and achieve that, hence why he wants as short an extension as possible.

 

Macron wanted the UK out sooner rather than later, long before the Rees-Mogg txts or tweets.

 

I was only repeating what was said on ITV news at lunchtime.  

[NANOJAMBO]

52 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I've had a quick check and look at your link. I don't see anything Scotland would struggle with or doesn't already have. I think you are referring to Spain and they've already stated they wouldn't stop an independent Scotland that leaves the UK through the proper legal mechanism from joining. They don't see it as close to the Catalonia situation where it isn't legally possible to leave Spain. I'm not aware of any other country previously having reservations. 

 

Anyway like you say this thread is about the UK and EU. 

For comparison - and without wishing to divert too much - how was it Czechoslovakia was allowed to effectively split in 2 and remain in the EU ? Is that a fair comparison ? 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

12 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

For comparison - and without wishing to divert too much - how was it Czechoslovakia was allowed to effectively split in 2 and remain in the EU ? Is that a fair comparison ? 

 

Because they weren't in the EU at the time of the split.

Czechoslovakia ceased to be on the 31 December 1992, spliting into the Czech Republic & Slovakia.

The Czech Republic & Slovakia didn't join the EU until 1 May 2004.

[Francis Albert]

13 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

The text does not directly say this. The text does effectively devolve all cross-border issues to the new democratic bodies created in the GFA. This does not mandate an open border, but on the other hand implementing a hard border by fiat from London would violate the agreement.

 

If the Councils so decided, they could implement a hard border, but by the terms of the GFA this is something that neither May nor the Westminster Parliament has the right to negotiate on, and therefore it cannot be negotiated as part of a UK/EU agreement.

 

Hence the proposed Irish Sea hard border, which of course the DUP see (with some reason) as Step 1 to a united Ireland and a departure of NI from the UK.

Thanks for the reply and in particular for referencing the terms of the agreement.

However I disagree with your interpretation of "Strand Two" and the role of the North/South Ministerial Council, which was established "to bring together those with executive responsibilities in Northern Ireland and the Irish Government, to develop consultation, co-operation and action within the island of Ireland - including through implementation on an all-Ireland and cross-border basis - on matters of mutual interest within the competence of the Administrations, North and South" (my emphasis).

Now the Irish Government certainly has competence (subject to the Dail's and Irish Upper House approval) on the nature of any border controls or absence of them between Ireland and the UK or a part of the UK. But the Northern Ireland Administration as far as I am aware does not - this is not a devolved matter and so is not within the competence of that Administration.

(The twelve examples given in the Annex to Strand 2, although illustrative only, do not go anywhere near the cross-border movement of people and goods).

As Brexit, certainly a Brexit that doesn't involve some form of customs union seems to be disappearing over the horizon, hopefully this is all somewhat academic but still worth being precise about given the "delicate balane of peace" - see next post.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

16 hours ago, hearts related nickname said:

 

Aware I'm not directly answering your question but on the topic of the good Friday agreement. 

Whether or not a border is in violation of the GFA, it is the symbolism of having a border being in violation of the spirit of it more than anything. Borders imply division and separation between people's and in such a delicate context I think it's of the utmost priority that nothing happens to fan any embers. A hard border or soft border or anyway that inhibits movement of people's from north to republic is dangerous and runs the risk of starting violence again.

I agree with all you say about the border and have said often a visible border is a very bad idea. It would undoubtedly fan the embers of violence  - there have already been threats to blow up even non-intrusive number plate recognition cameras. However, I think loose talk of the UK "breaching the terms of the GFA" (rather than the spirit) if there is any form of border controls is also capable of fanning embers among the small minority who would like an excuse to rip up the GFA.

[Mikey1874]

BXP is Farage's new party 

CHUK is new lot who left Labour and some Tory MPs 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Mikey1874]

 

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I've had a quick check and look at your link. I don't see anything Scotland would struggle with or doesn't already have. I think you are referring to Spain and they've already stated they wouldn't stop an independent Scotland that leaves the UK through the proper legal mechanism from joining. They don't see it as close to the Catalonia situation where it isn't legally possible to leave Spain. I'm not aware of any other country previously having reservations. 

 

Anyway like you say this thread is about the UK and EU. 

 

Others were reported to have reservations, but that was pre-Brexit. When the UK leaves the EU, there may be a changed attitude towards us being accepted into the fold.

 

(possibly biased article follows)

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11104624/Scottish-referendum-Scotland-will-find-few-friends-and-allies-in-Europe.html

 

[AlphonseCapone]

17 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Others were reported to have reservations, but that was pre-Brexit. When the UK leaves the EU, there may be a changed attitude towards us being accepted into the fold.

 

(possibly biased article follows)

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11104624/Scottish-referendum-Scotland-will-find-few-friends-and-allies-in-Europe.html

 

 

No offence but that article is an absolute embarrassment of a piece.

 

Even if we ignore that most of the listed issues are no longer relevant, there were barely any quotes to back it up, just basically a list of countries with areas that have potentially at some point mentioned breaking away. The only person with any clout who is directly quoted is Rajoy and the Spanish situation has been clarified since. 

 

The worst part though is this;

 

"Many diplomats cite fears that the Scottish vote will legitimise Crimea’s referendum to join Russia" 

 

I honestly haven't read a bigger steaming pile of shite in a long time. 

 

Again, no offence

 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

No offence but that article is an absolute embarrassment of a piece.

 

Even if we ignore that most of the listed issues are no longer relevant, there were barely any quotes to back it up, just basically a list of countries with areas that have potentially at some point mentioned breaking away. The only person with any clout who is directly quoted is Rajoy and the Spanish situation has been clarified since. 

 

The worst part though is this;

 

"Many diplomats cite fears that the Scottish vote will legitimise Crimea’s referendum to join Russia" 

 

I honestly haven't read a bigger steaming pile of shite in a long time. 

 

Again, no offence

 

 

No offence taken at all, AC. It was just when you mentioned that you weren't aware of any other country previously having reservations, I remembered that back at the time Cyprus were mentioned, in addition to Spain, as not being particularly in favour due to the Northern Cyprus situation. I Googled and that article was all I could come up with in the short time that I had. Just trying to add a bit of info that this *may* be something we have to contend with. Frankly, with the UK out of the EU, I don't think any countries that had reservations will have them any more given that we wouldn't be splitting from a EU member country only to ask for re-entry into the EU.

Edited April 10, 2019 by redjambo

[Shanks said no]

The talk in Brussels is that EU leaders have agreed a Brexit delay until 31 October.

According to diplomatic sources quoted by Reuters, the EU will review this extension in June.

But the development has not been confirmed elsewhere and BBC News Reality Check correspondent Chris Morris cautions that this is "not a done deal".

[NANOJAMBO]

4 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Because they weren't in the EU at the time of the split.

Czechoslovakia ceased to be on the 31 December 1992, spliting into the Czech Republic & Slovakia.

The Czech Republic & Slovakia didn't join the EU until 1 May 2004.

Thank you. 

[ri Alban]

3 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Thank you. 

Aye, cause it'll take 11 years for Scotland to join the EU.

[hearts related nickname]

10 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I agree with all you say about the border and have said often a visible border is a very bad idea. It would undoubtedly fan the embers of violence  - there have already been threats to blow up even non-intrusive number plate recognition cameras. However, I think loose talk of the UK "breaching the terms of the GFA" (rather than the spirit) if there is any form of border controls is also capable of fanning embers among the small minority who would like an excuse to rip up the GFA.

Fully agree with you.  It's an issue with reporting and discussion being subject to concision. It's easier to just say the GFA will be broken rather than attempt to explain the implications of a potential border which (in the broadcasters eyes) takes too long and requires too much understanding of Irish history. Oversimplification is the way now.

[Harry Potter]

Hopefully now the government can thrash out a deal and we can leave with some dignity, what a carry on.

[ri Alban]

May sabotage, to keep herself in power, longer. 

[Harry Potter]

Just now, ri Alban said:

May sabotage, to keep herself in power, longer. 

Lets be honest , shes had some job to get this mess sorted out ri, imagine wee jeremy in charge ,

which he never will be.

FTR, im not a tory, dunno what i am now, labour for years but Blair finished me.

[ri Alban]

Have any government in the UK did anything for their populations other than Brexit, in the last 3 years.

[Don Dan]

Brextention!! 

I suspect there will a second referendum as I doubt Labour and the Tory’s will agree anything. 

[ri Alban]

Just now, Harry Potter said:

Lets be honest , shes had some job to get this mess sorted out ri, imagine wee jeremy in charge ,

which he never will be.

FTR, im not a tory, dunno what i am now, labour for years but Blair finished me.

Jeremy would do a better job with both his eyes spooned oot. This just shows how bad , no deal actually is, otherwise she'd have pulled the trigger, Hazza.

[Harry Potter]

15 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Brextention!! 

I suspect there will a second referendum as I doubt Labour and the Tory’s will agree anything. 

Going down a second vote route brings democracy in to question, leaving people thinking of any future votes, whats the point.

[AlphonseCapone]

Brilliant, 6 months of fannying around until we need another extension. The only thing that comes to close to getting over the line is customs union but the Tories won't accept this. GE in the summer. 

[Don Dan]

7 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Going down a second vote route brings democracy in to question, leaving people thinking of any future votes, whats the point.

 

I agree to an extent but Parliament can’t or is unable to sort this out therefore we have to go back to the people now with much clearer options. We hand democracy back to the people, it has to be our decision now. Parliament has failed.

[Harry Potter]

12 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

I agree to an extent but Parliament can’t or is unable to sort this out therefore we have to go back to the people now with much clearer options. We hand democracy back to the people, it has to be our decision now. Parliament has failed.

They certainly have failed mate, but its harsh to blame it all on May, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place, these clowns who 

get paid plenty should have been united in striking a deal but have acted like spoiled schoolkids.

[Don Dan]

Just now, Harry Potter said:

They certainly have failed mate, but its harsh to blame it all on May, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place, these clowns who 

get paid plenty should have been united in striking a deal but have acted like spoiled schoolkids.

 

Im not laying the blame on May. I don’t think any PM would have come up with a deal that would win a majority in Parliament. Far to many factions and divisions add in MPs or parties with agendas. You’ve even got MPs who are Remainers when their constituents are Leavers. Hence my wish that the spoilt schoolkids should have the decision taken away from them. And they won’t get it back after school either!   

[Pans Jambo]

23 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

I agree to an extent but Parliament can’t or is unable to sort this out therefore we have to go back to the people now with much clearer options. We hand democracy back to the people, it has to be our decision now. Parliament has failed.

This is the correct position IMO

[Harry Potter]

1 minute ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

Im not laying the blame on May. I don’t think any PM would have come up with a deal that would win a majority in Parliament. Far to many factions and divisions add in MPs or parties with agendas. You’ve even got MPs who are Remainers when their constituents are Leavers. Hence my wish that the spoilt schoolkids should have the decision taken away from them. And they won’t get it back after school either!   

Good post bud.

[gashauskis9]

So 31 October then.  Trick or treaty?

[Harry Potter]

1 minute ago, Gashauskis9 said:

So 31 October then.  Trick or treaty?

Who knows.lol.

[Pans Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

They certainly have failed mate, but its harsh to blame it all on May, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place, these clowns who 

get paid plenty should have been united in striking a deal but have acted like spoiled schoolkids.

Of course shes to blame! She knew what was in store when she applied for the PM job when Cameron left. 

If she got ALL the leaders i to a room on day 1 and said “right, what do we all want & what do we agree on now and what support can I get during the negotiations with the EU for the next 2 years but naw! Billy big bawz went on her own and now look at where she is. Utter clown!

 

like the Hibs, NEVER let them forget. 

 

It was the Tories that got is into this shit, the Tories that lied to us, the tories that set the red lines, the tories that negotiated the deal that NOBODY wants (3 times is it?) and the tories that now keep extending Brexit and the tories that now blame everyone else for it BECAUSE the deal isnt getting approved. 

 

Shitehawks! Every one of them!

 

Dont say its not her fault. It clearly is. She could have done the decent thing and resigned after the biggest commons defeat in history but she wants to play hero!

fek her & fek them!

[Craig_]

26 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Of course shes to blame! She knew what was in store when she applied for the PM job when Cameron left. 

If she got ALL the leaders i to a room on day 1 and said “right, what do we all want & what do we agree on now and what support can I get during the negotiations with the EU for the next 2 years but naw! Billy big bawz went on her own and now look at where she is. Utter clown!

 

like the Hibs, NEVER let them forget. 

 

It was the Tories that got is into this shit, the Tories that lied to us, the tories that set the red lines, the tories that negotiated the deal that NOBODY wants (3 times is it?) and the tories that now keep extending Brexit and the tories that now blame everyone else for it BECAUSE the deal isnt getting approved. 

 

Shitehawks! Every one of them!

 

Dont say its not her fault. It clearly is. She could have done the decent thing and resigned after the biggest commons defeat in history but she wants to play hero!

fek her & fek them!

 

 

Well said.

[Don Dan]

45 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

right, what do we all want & what do we agree on now and what support can I get during the negotiations with the EU for the next 2

 

I very much doubt it would have work. The reason is Parliament is splintered when it comes to Brexit. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

May sabotage, to keep herself in power, longer. 

This.

5th November would have been a more appropriate date.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Of course shes to blame! She knew what was in store when she applied for the PM job when Cameron left. 

If she got ALL the leaders i to a room on day 1 and said “right, what do we all want & what do we agree on now and what support can I get during the negotiations with the EU for the next 2 years but naw! Billy big bawz went on her own and now look at where she is. Utter clown!

 

like the Hibs, NEVER let them forget. 

 

It was the Tories that got is into this shit, the Tories that lied to us, the tories that set the red lines, the tories that negotiated the deal that NOBODY wants (3 times is it?) and the tories that now keep extending Brexit and the tories that now blame everyone else for it BECAUSE the deal isnt getting approved. 

 

Shitehawks! Every one of them!

 

Dont say its not her fault. It clearly is. She could have done the decent thing and resigned after the biggest commons defeat in history but she wants to play hero!

fek her & fek them!

 

Bang on!

[indianajones]

People saying its hard to put the blame on May. Have a word ffs.

 

She's had years to prepare. Instead she's done things like call snap elections in a failed power grab bid. 

 

She's a failure of huge proportions. 

[ri Alban]

19 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

This.

5th November would have been a more appropriate date.

Exactly!

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I just wish folks would spare a thought for that poor can. 

 

 

#prayforthecan

 

[AlphonseCapone]

10 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

No offence taken at all, AC. It was just when you mentioned that you weren't aware of any other country previously having reservations, I remembered that back at the time Cyprus were mentioned, in addition to Spain, as not being particularly in favour due to the Northern Cyprus situation. I Googled and that article was all I could come up with in the short time that I had. Just trying to add a bit of info that this *may* be something we have to contend with. Frankly, with the UK out of the EU, I don't think any countries that had reservations will have them any more given that we wouldn't be splitting from a EU member country only to ask for re-entry into the EU.

 

Yeah I think we're in such a different scenario now compared to then that it's hard to go on what was said then. I don't think it would be easy sailing to get in but certainly would happen if Scotland so chose. 

 

Anyway, the UK and Brexit.  It's hard to keep up with all the factions. Who's going to be upset at this further extension, only the hard line brexiteers or all leavers? Are there soft leavers, folk that would be happy with a customs union for example or is that predominantly remainers wanting that position? 

Edited April 11, 2019 by AlphonseCapone

[Don Dan]

40 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

This.

5th November would have been a more appropriate date.

 I know a Guy.......

[gashauskis9]

2 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Of course shes to blame! She knew what was in store when she applied for the PM job when Cameron left. 

If she got ALL the leaders i to a room on day 1 and said “right, what do we all want & what do we agree on now and what support can I get during the negotiations with the EU for the next 2 years but naw! Billy big bawz went on her own and now look at where she is. Utter clown!

 

like the Hibs, NEVER let them forget. 

 

It was the Tories that got is into this shit, the Tories that lied to us, the tories that set the red lines, the tories that negotiated the deal that NOBODY wants (3 times is it?) and the tories that now keep extending Brexit and the tories that now blame everyone else for it BECAUSE the deal isnt getting approved. 

 

Shitehawks! Every one of them!

 

Dont say its not her fault. It clearly is. She could have done the decent thing and resigned after the biggest commons defeat in history but she wants to play hero!

fek her & fek them!

Standing ovation from me ????????????

 

Will take the Tories decades to recover from this.  The next generation will not be as forgiving us ours and the last.

[XB52]

there has to be a GE now surely. It's the only way to get rid of May as the tories can't do another confidence vote for another 11 months or so. However, pretty sure they will put their jobs before the good of the uk yet again. Either way, it just brings Independence closer so it's a win win for Scotland (IMO of course)

[Craig_]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Yeah I think we're in such a different scenario now compared to then that it's hard to go on what was said then. I don't think it would be easy sailing to get in but certainly would happen if Scotland so chose. 

 

Anyway, the UK and Brexit.  It's hard to keep up with all the factions. Who's going to be upset at this further extension, only the hard line brexiteers or all leavers? Are there soft leavers, folk that would be happy with a customs union for example or is that predominantly remainers wanting that position? 

 

I was under the impression that a third of tory MPs were going to quit the party if we got an extension.

 

So, where are they?!

 

EDIT - Oh, look. There's Julian Assange!

Edited April 11, 2019 by Craig_

[Don Dan]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

there has to be a GE now surely. It's the only way to get rid of May as the tories can't do another confidence vote for another 11 months or so. However, pretty sure they will put their jobs before the good of the uk yet again. Either way, it just brings Independence closer so it's a win win for Scotland (IMO of course)

 

There needs to be separate votes. 1 on Brexit and 1 for a GE. Parties are split so any manifesto despite what some claim can’t cover both these issues. 

[kawasakijambo]

Just leave, and uphold the decision of the majority of the people.

 

It's called Democracy.