Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Notts1874]

5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Never better.  

Good lad. You have taken a bit of grief lately.

 

What are your thoughts on Corbyn's position on this? Interesting that his deputy will be marching tomorrow.

[shaun.lawson]

10 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Good lad. You have taken a bit of grief lately.

 

What are your thoughts on Corbyn's position on this? Interesting that his deputy will be marching tomorrow.

 

My thoughts remain that he's handled all this as well as he could have; that Labour's alternative plan (which the EU have praised) is a good one; that people who blame him for all this cannot do basic maths... and that Labour have to think of working class Brexiteers as well as middle class Remainers.

 

As for Watson - do not get me started.

[SwindonJambo]

34 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Helped change policy though ?. I was at the Right to Party march back in the day. Did **** all in the end but was a belting day and night out??

Well It did that I suppose . And it helped bring down Maggie Thatcher. There were Conservatives there protesting. It was all peaceful, fun and good natured until the Anarchists hijacked the occasion, waving their black flags. The hotheads joined them, as they hoped and all hell broke loose. Windows were being panned left, right and centre and loads of stuff getting chucked about. My 2 mates and I, both fellow Scots, were charged by galloping Police horses. That was proper scary.

[Notts1874]

8 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Well It did that I suppose . And it helped bring down Maggie Thatcher. There were Conservatives there protesting. It was all peaceful, fun and good natured until the Anarchists hijacked the occasion, waving their black flags. The hotheads joined them, as they hoped and all hell broke loose. Windows were being panned left, right and centre and loads of stuff getting chucked about. My 2 mates and I, both fellow Scots, were charged by galloping Police horses. That was proper scary.

I don't think tomorrow will be anything like that.

[SwindonJambo]

6 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I don't think tomorrow will be anything like that.

 

Nor me. As long as there isn't a counter protest of nasties on the Leave side, I'm sure it will be fine. 

[I P Knightley]

Do Brexity people realise that, if the UK does leave the EU and we're left to stand on our own two feet and create this modern day Utopia you all seem to hanker after... Do you realise that we'll need really good politicians and leaders to deliver that Utopia? Have you noticed that we don't have any such potential leaders?

 

Even if you get your wacky dream of Brexiting, we're absolutely ****ed thereafter because of this miserable shower.

 

Arses.

[SwindonJambo]

4 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

Do Brexity people realise that, if the UK does leave the EU and we're left to stand on our own two feet and create this modern day Utopia you all seem to hanker after... Do you realise that we'll need really good politicians and leaders to deliver that Utopia? Have you noticed that we don't have any such potential leaders?

 

Even if you get your wacky dream of Brexiting, we're absolutely ****ed thereafter because of this miserable shower.

 

Arses.

 

I have previously said that we have the lowest calibre of politician across the board in my adult lifetime by a country mile.

 

Self serving Useless tossers who couldn't run a bath.

[Notts1874]

10 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

Nor me. As long as there isn't a counter protest of nasties on the Leave side, I'm sure it will be fine. 

There has been chat of folk trying to block the motorways to London to stop the buses getting there. Trouble is they have tried to organise this via social media. Obviously the police have no idea what is going on???

[SwindonJambo]

2 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

There has been chat of folk trying to block the motorways to London to stop the buses getting there. Trouble is they have tried to organise this via social media. Obviously the police have no idea what is going on???

 

That truly is breathtakingly thick ?

[shaun.lawson]

Move along now, nothing to see here.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/22/secret-cabinet-office-document-reveals-chaotic-planning-for-no-deal-brexit

[The Mighty Thor]

5 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

My thoughts remain that he's handled all this as well as he could have; that Labour's alternative plan (which the EU have praised) is a good one; that people who blame him for all this cannot do basic maths... and that Labour have to think of working class Brexiteers as well as middle class Remainers.

 

As for Watson - do not get me started.

Sorry but I'm going to have to bite on that.

Corbyn has been abject. Labour have been abject.

He's been continually out manoeuvred by the worst government in history and had his pants taken down by the worst, least effective prime minister that's ever drawn breath.

As this process gathers pace towards a conclusion he's a passenger. He still has no discernable plan. 

I genuinely, 3 years later, still don't know what the official Labour position is on Brexit. 

[Sidelight]

7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Oh no it wasn't.

 

People chose controls on immigration while comically, also choosing Switzerland or Norway. People chose to leave the European Union while having literally no idea about the single market, customs union, or Irish border. 

 

If you'd taken a poll on referendum day asking voters "what is a customs union?", barely anyone would've been able to answer. That's the reality here. And because of the Good Friday Agreement, leaving the customs union should've been a total no-no from the start.

 

As we voted to leave the EU - by a narrow margin, following a campaign of electoral fraud, lies, dark money and Russian involvement - a sensible government would've immediately reached out across Parliament and agreed a cross-party approach before even considering triggering Article 50. And such an approach should have consisted of:

 

"We are leaving the political institutions. As we don't want to cut our noses off to spite our faces, we are staying in the customs union (because of Northern Ireland) and the single market (because of Switzerland and Norway)". 

 

Instead, our ridiculous government set red lines which were literally impossible to meet - and blamed Europe or Parliament for them being literally impossible to meet. This week, it's taken Europe to save the UK from the abyss. The absolute abyss. And still, extraordinary numbers of people just do not get it.

 

No Deal means food shortages. No Deal means medical shortages. No Deal means just in time supply chains collapsing. No Deal means utter chaos for business up and down the UK. No Deal means traffic jams stretching back from Dover as far as the eye can see, and well beyond it. No Deal means death: of plenty of people. No Deal means social unrest, violence, and extremism like you've never seen before in Britain. 

 

No Deal, for that matter, isn't even a thing. It's not the cliff edge. It's the strawberry jam at the bottom of the cliff after we've jumped off it.

 

Theresa May's view of it all? It's all Parliament's fault... and "the British people voted for pain". She doesn't have an empathetic bone in her body. And that she's still there is astounding, and the ultimate comment on a system which is broken beyond repair and a country which has completely lost the plot. 

 

1940 is a long, long time ago. Some people seem to actively hanker after it. You know, when "Britain was great". These people weren't even around in 1940, and know nothing of the grim reality of the Blitz, the horrors of war, dead bodies strewn all over the place very often... but from their warm, comfortable homes, they still get all nostalgic. 

 

For that matter, 1066 is a very very long time ago now too. We assume our system works because other than by King Billy, we (by which I mean Britain; the same doesn't apply to Scotland, of course) have never been successfully invaded since. So we've allowed that system to become more and more antiquated, elitist, and riddled with corruption, bad faith and incompetence from top to bottom. With the media - which is supposed to hold truth to power on behalf of the public! - completely complicit in all of that.

 

The behaviour of the UK government has been literally criminal. Holding a gun to the head of the entire country and of Parliament, and threatening to pull the trigger. After this nonsense is over, private prosecutions should be brought for malfeasance in public office. I have never seen the like of it in any Western country: including the US, given they have Mueller, and they've fully investigated corruption, collusion and interference in their system.

 

Bottom line? Substantial proportions of the British electorate - let alone its media and governing party - do not have the first clue. And the reason for that is a combination of hubris, arrogance, ignorance, and post-imperial complacency. We're not "great". We're a small island in the North Atlantic, which is currently attempting to commit suicide in front of the entire world. Thank God that the EU are, ultimately, still pretty likely to prevent that very worst of outcomes from happening. 

Happy New Year Shaun.

You make some valid points, yes.

However, at best your tags are no more than truth mixed with error.

Along the lines of me suggesting that you have successfully graduated from the ‘Project Fear’ rehabilitation course.

 

[SectionDJambo]

7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

This is the same John Redwood who some months back, advised investors to... move their money out of the UK. One to be filed alongside Nigel Lawson (no relation, thank heavens) seeking residency in France, James Dyson moving his offices and tax domicile to Singapore, Nigel Farage seeking German citizenship, and Jacob Rees-Mogg and the millions he makes... in Dublin. 

Thanks for the name correction. I try to put his face and name out of my mind.

I wonder how Cameron, the man whose complacency gave right wing nutters, like Redwood and Farage, the chance to plunge us all into this mess, feels now. 

I would pee myself laughing if all the shenanigans of the Conservative party infighting led to another referendum on May’s deal or staying in, and this time we stayed in by a good margin.

Having said that, it would be expected of the EU to look at itself and consider why so many British people were scared or angered into wishing to exit.

[Justin Z]

Interesting, though unsurprising, if true

 

 

[Taffin]

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Oh no it wasn't.

 

People chose controls on immigration while comically, also choosing Switzerland or Norway. People chose to leave the European Union while having literally no idea about the single market, customs union, or Irish border. 

 

There was no option to choose controls on immigration. There was a simple question of leave or don't leave. People voted leave. Their motivations for that were up to them, but it's what people chose.

 

 

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

If you'd taken a poll on referendum day asking voters "what is a customs union?", barely anyone would've been able to answer. That's the reality here. And because of the Good Friday Agreement, leaving the customs union should've been a total no-no from the start.

 

You are correct, but that's the voters prerogative. They can choose to educate themselves on the topic they are voting for not. I'd argue this was something that shouldn't have been put to the masses, but it was and they chose leave.

 

As for the Good Friday Agreement; my view on that is that it's the tail wagging the dog but you're right, it fundamentally should have prevented leaving the customs union, but yet, despite that, people still voted for it.

 

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

As we voted to leave the EU - by a narrow margin, following a campaign of electoral fraud, lies, dark money and Russian involvement - a sensible government would've immediately reached out across Parliament and agreed a cross-party approach before even considering triggering Article 50. And such an approach should have consisted of:

 

"We are leaving the political institutions. As we don't want to cut our noses off to spite our faces, we are staying in the customs union (because of Northern Ireland) and the single market (because of Switzerland and Norway)". 

 

I agree, but we didn't and the time for that had passed. We need to just get on with it. Nobody was guaranteed a soft Brexit and nobody's version of it is more right that anyone else's.

 

People voted with the full knowledge they were at risk of cutting their noses off.

 

 

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Instead, our ridiculous government set red lines which were literally impossible to meet - and blamed Europe or Parliament for them being literally impossible to meet. This week, it's taken Europe to save the UK from the abyss. The absolute abyss. And still, extraordinary numbers of people just do not get it.

 

No Deal means food shortages. No Deal means medical shortages. No Deal means just in time supply chains collapsing. No Deal means utter chaos for business up and down the UK. No Deal means traffic jams stretching back from Dover as far as the eye can see, and well beyond it. No Deal means death: of plenty of people. No Deal means social unrest, violence, and extremism like you've never seen before in Britain. 

 

No Deal, for that matter, isn't even a thing. It's not the cliff edge. It's the strawberry jam at the bottom of the cliff after we've jumped off it.

 

I agree, but I don't see what the alternative is. We've had 3 years to agree something else and have failed to deliver it. This can't continue forever.

 

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Theresa May's view of it all? It's all Parliament's fault... and "the British people voted for pain". She doesn't have an empathetic bone in her body. And that she's still there is astounding, and the ultimate comment on a system which is broken beyond repair and a country which has completely lost the plot. 

 

1940 is a long, long time ago. Some people seem to actively hanker after it. You know, when "Britain was great". These people weren't even around in 1940, and know nothing of the grim reality of the Blitz, the horrors of war, dead bodies strewn all over the place very often... but from their warm, comfortable homes, they still get all nostalgic. 

 

For that matter, 1066 is a very very long time ago now too. We assume our system works because other than by King Billy, we (by which I mean Britain; the same doesn't apply to Scotland, of course) have never been successfully invaded since. So we've allowed that system to become more and more antiquated, elitist, and riddled with corruption, bad faith and incompetence from top to bottom. With the media - which is supposed to hold truth to power on behalf of the public! - completely complicit in all of that.

 

The behaviour of the UK government has been literally criminal. Holding a gun to the head of the entire country and of Parliament, and threatening to pull the trigger. After this nonsense is over, private prosecutions should be brought for malfeasance in public office. I have never seen the like of it in any Western country: including the US, given they have Mueller, and they've fully investigated corruption, collusion and interference in their system.

 

It was still a free vote and on the day we could choose either option and people chose this outcome. As far as I know there has been no evidence of substantial vote tampering.

 

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Bottom line? Substantial proportions of the British electorate - let alone its media and governing party - do not have the first clue. And the reason for that is a combination of hubris, arrogance, ignorance, and post-imperial complacency. We're not "great". We're a small island in the North Atlantic, which is currently attempting to commit suicide in front of the entire world. Thank God that the EU are, ultimately, still pretty likely to prevent that very worst of outcomes from happening. 

 

Bottom line? Bottom line is you think you know better than swathes of the electorate and they therefore must have been duped in some way. That may be true, but it's not my view. I think people knew fine we'll what they were voting but were so dissatisfied with the status quo they picked it anyway and it's now up to the government to deliver it. Which they've failed to do.

 

You make a lot of good points but none of these things should have come as a surprise and should have been accounted for when voting.

 

Anyway, good to see you back posting. My personal view is very similar to you on this, however now that it's done I think we needed to deliver Brexit in a timely fashion and the window for that has now passed. I'd love for us to not leave as it is monumentally stupid to do so, but my view isn't important, it's the view of the majority that counts.

 

 

[The Doc]

51 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Interesting, though unsurprising, if true

 

 

 

Wouldnt surprise me either but it’s currently working fine and is sitting just shy of 4 million.

[Notts1874]

51 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Interesting, though unsurprising, if true

 

 

Its not true. Its Limmy being Limmy. He did get a retweet from Les Dennis though ????

[Francis Albert]

11 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Oh no it wasn't.

 

People chose controls on immigration while comically, also choosing Switzerland or Norway. People chose to leave the European Union while having literally no idea about the single market, customs union, or Irish border. 

 

If you'd taken a poll on referendum day asking voters "what is a customs union?", barely anyone would've been able to answer. That's the reality here. And because of the Good Friday Agreement, leaving the customs union should've been a total no-no from the start.

 

As we voted to leave the EU - by a narrow margin, following a campaign of electoral fraud, lies, dark money and Russian involvement - a sensible government would've immediately reached out across Parliament and agreed a cross-party approach before even considering triggering Article 50. And such an approach should have consisted of:

 

"We are leaving the political institutions. As we don't want to cut our noses off to spite our faces, we are staying in the customs union (because of Northern Ireland) and the single market (because of Switzerland and Norway)". 

 

Instead, our ridiculous government set red lines which were literally impossible to meet - and blamed Europe or Parliament for them being literally impossible to meet. This week, it's taken Europe to save the UK from the abyss. The absolute abyss. And still, extraordinary numbers of people just do not get it.

 

No Deal means food shortages. No Deal means medical shortages. No Deal means just in time supply chains collapsing. No Deal means utter chaos for business up and down the UK. No Deal means traffic jams stretching back from Dover as far as the eye can see, and well beyond it. No Deal means death: of plenty of people. No Deal means social unrest, violence, and extremism like you've never seen before in Britain. 

 

No Deal, for that matter, isn't even a thing. It's not the cliff edge. It's the strawberry jam at the bottom of the cliff after we've jumped off it.

 

Theresa May's view of it all? It's all Parliament's fault... and "the British people voted for pain". She doesn't have an empathetic bone in her body. And that she's still there is astounding, and the ultimate comment on a system which is broken beyond repair and a country which has completely lost the plot. 

 

1940 is a long, long time ago. Some people seem to actively hanker after it. You know, when "Britain was great". These people weren't even around in 1940, and know nothing of the grim reality of the Blitz, the horrors of war, dead bodies strewn all over the place very often... but from their warm, comfortable homes, they still get all nostalgic. 

 

For that matter, 1066 is a very very long time ago now too. We assume our system works because other than by King Billy, we (by which I mean Britain; the same doesn't apply to Scotland, of course) have never been successfully invaded since. So we've allowed that system to become more and more antiquated, elitist, and riddled with corruption, bad faith and incompetence from top to bottom. With the media - which is supposed to hold truth to power on behalf of the public! - completely complicit in all of that.

 

The behaviour of the UK government has been literally criminal. Holding a gun to the head of the entire country and of Parliament, and threatening to pull the trigger. After this nonsense is over, private prosecutions should be brought for malfeasance in public office. I have never seen the like of it in any Western country: including the US, given they have Mueller, and they've fully investigated corruption, collusion and interference in their system.

 

Bottom line? Substantial proportions of the British electorate - let alone its media and governing party - do not have the first clue. And the reason for that is a combination of hubris, arrogance, ignorance, and post-imperial complacency. We're not "great". We're a small island in the North Atlantic, which is currently attempting to commit suicide in front of the entire world. Thank God that the EU are, ultimately, still pretty likely to prevent that very worst of outcomes from happening. 

That intensive Project Fear course went well Shaun ... A- though. You missed out the UK becoming a Third World country and 15m unemployed. Though your nuclear war analogy on another post deserves an extra merit for innovation.

 

And I think May's agreement with all 27 other EU members delivers most of what the red lines (aka as opening negotiation position) were about.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, Notts1874 said:

Its not true. Its Limmy being Limmy. He did get a retweet from Les Dennis though ????

 

Haha! You do always have to wonder

 

[Costanza]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

That intensive Project Fear course went well Shaun ... A- though. You missed out the UK becoming a Third World country and 15m unemployed. Though your nuclear war analogy on another post deserves an extra merit for innovation.

 

And I think May's agreement with all 27 other EU members delivers most of what the red lines (aka as opening negotiation position) were about.

If you don't think no deal wouldn't be catastrophic for the economy then let's see the evidence that informs that opinion.
This will be evidence that goes against the vast majority of business leaders, trade unions, economists, trade experts , the car industry, the haulage industry, the health service, the financial sector and the government itself.

The last time I think you responded to me on the impact of a no deal Brexit, the response was to search on Google, the majority was sometimes wrong and Mervyn King thought Brexit would be fine.
That was underwhelming then and cliched tropes like Project Fear aren't going to cut it either.
So if you think no deal isn't going to be hugely damaging, let's see the counter argument.

[SwindonJambo]

11 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

My thoughts remain that he's handled all this as well as he could have; that Labour's alternative plan (which the EU have praised) is a good one; that people who blame him for all this cannot do basic maths... and that Labour have to think of working class Brexiteers as well as middle class Remainers.

 

As for Watson - do not get me started.

 

The current government are the most disunited I can ever recall and yet they lead all recent opinion polls. Any Opposition still behind in these circumstances is summarily useless and ineffectual. Corbyn is spineless loser. The Tories are there on a plate for him to beat yet he can’t do it. The equivalent of missing an unguarded open goal from point blank range.

 

The Peter Van Vossen of politics. He and that dreadful Momentum organisation need to be booted into the outer stratosphere and Labour to appeal to the mainstream middle ground again. Do that and they’d win an election hands down, regaining my vote in the process.

[Francis Albert]

25 minutes ago, Costanza said:

If you don't think no deal wouldn't be catastrophic for the economy then let's see the evidence that informs that opinion.
This will be evidence that goes against the vast majority of business leaders, trade unions, economists, trade experts , the car industry, the haulage industry, the health service, the financial sector and the government itself.

The last time I think you responded to me on the impact of a no deal Brexit, the response was to search on Google, the majority was sometimes wrong and Mervyn King thought Brexit would be fine.
That was underwhelming then and cliched tropes like Project Fear aren't going to cut it either.
So if you think no deal isn't going to be hugely damaging, let's see the counter argument.

It will be damaging in the short to medium term at least. I have never said otherwise.

But catastrophe, disaster, tens or hundreds of thousands dead, societal breakdown, rioting and extremism never seen in this country before - it is those apocalyptic terms I was responding too.

I also think too many people swallow experts opinions with little understanding of what they mean and what they are based. I have explained why often.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Francis Albert

[The Mighty Thor]

18 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

The current government are the most disunited I can ever recall and yet they lead all recent opinion polls. Any Opposition still behind in these circumstances is summarily useless and ineffectual. Corbyn is spineless loser. The Tories are there on a plate for him to beat yet he can’t do it. The equivalent of missing an unguarded open goal from point blank range.

 

The Peter Van Vossen of politics. He and that dreadful Momentum organisation need to be booted into the outer stratosphere and Labour to appeal to the mainstream middle ground again. Do that and they’d win an election hands down, regaining my vote in the process.

Kind of get your analogy but it's a poor one. Van Vossen missed an open goal once. This rocket is missing them week after week after week for the last 18 months.

At least Tom Watson is showing a bit of spine by coming out today to support what he believes in. What does Corbyn believe in? Anyone? 

[Costanza]

53 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

It will be damaging in the short to medium term at least. I have never said otherwise.

But catastrophe, disaster, tens or hundreds of thousands dead, societal breakdown, rioting and extremism never seen in this country before - it is those apocalyptic terms I was responding too.

I also think too many people swallow experts opinions with little understanding of what they mean and what they are based. I have explained why often.

How bad do you think it will get and if it came to No Deal or No Brexit,  would it be a price worth paying?

As for people swallowing expert opinion, that's a rather sweeping opinion in itself and what do you define as an 'expert'?

People who work in industry and advise it would be damaging?

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, Costanza said:

How bad do you think it will get and if it came to No Deal or No Brexit,  would it be a price worth paying?

As for people swallowing expert opinion, that's a rather sweeping opinion in itself and what do you define as an 'expert'?

People who work in industry and advise it would be damaging?

Like the joint statement from the TUC and CBI for example.

[Costanza]

11 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Like the joint statement from the TUC and CBI for example.

Well indeed. You have to give May credit for doing the unlikely and bringing them together!

[Victorian]

The narrative of a no deal Brexit being damaging and disruptive... but only a wee bit... negligible,   manageable,   acceptable collateral triflings of little concern.    Worth it in the end.     It's just a rancid,  glib,  dishonest attitude to justify an underlying agenda.

 

Some people will lose their jobs.    But it doesn't matter.     Some other people will have different jobs in 10 years time.     Everyone's happy.     Jam tomorrow.

 

I'm utterly sick of the dismissive nature of this narrative.    Zeal masquerading as reason.

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

The narrative of a no deal Brexit being damaging and disruptive... but only a wee bit... negligible,   manageable,   acceptable collateral triflings of little concern.    Worth it in the end.     It's just a rancid,  glib,  dishonest attitude to justify an underlying agenda.

 

Some people will lose their jobs.    But it doesn't matter.     Some other people will have different jobs in 10 years time.     Everyone's happy.     Jam tomorrow.

 

I'm utterly sick of the dismissive nature of this narrative.    Zeal masquerading as reason.

The I'm all right jack mob are the one's saying this. One of them on this very thread.

[Victorian]

It never seems to resonate with people that even a small and short,   temporary worsening of household prosperity can have a dramatic effect on people who are living on the edges of poverty or who are profoundly constrained by mortgages and such like.    

 

If only a tiny percentage of families suffer severe financial trauma as a result of wholly avoidable self harm,    then it's too many at that.     Not that those most vocal of wealthy,   comfortable politicians even seem to recognise.    

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Victorian said:

It never seems to resonate with people that even a small and short,   temporary worsening of household prosperity can have a dramatic effect on people who are living on the edges of poverty or who are profoundly constrained by mortgages and such like.    

 

If only a tiny percentage of families suffer severe financial trauma as a result of wholly avoidable self harm,    then it's too many at that.     Not that those most vocal of wealthy,   comfortable politicians even seem to recognise.    

Yip. 

If the basic things like the pound dips or interest rates rise then everyone gets it in the ass.

Factor in food price rises or indeed shortages then you get a pretty grim picture of what May and her cronies, and I'll include that useless ***** Corbyn, are happy to put onto the people. 

It certainly won't have any impact on their lives. 

[The Mighty Thor]

I see on sky news, who once again give the irrelevance disproportionate air time, that head gammon Nigel Farage is threatening to return to politics to drive through Brexit and this time there will be no more Mr nice guy. 

 

Aye nae bother chief. 

 

Every time he appears on TV or radio he should be called out for shit like this, and hounded for it

[Mikey1874]

 

 

[Costanza]

47 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The narrative of a no deal Brexit being damaging and disruptive... but only a wee bit... negligible,   manageable,   acceptable collateral triflings of little concern.    Worth it in the end.     It's just a rancid,  glib,  dishonest attitude to justify an underlying agenda.

 

Some people will lose their jobs.    But it doesn't matter.     Some other people will have different jobs in 10 years time.     Everyone's happy.     Jam tomorrow.

 

I'm utterly sick of the dismissive nature of this narrative.    Zeal masquerading as reason.

Totally agree.

When the people you see advocating no deal are politicias such as Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, Bernard Jenkin etc. then you should really have pause for thought...

[Notts1874]

[Victorian]

Hard Brexit MPs' reactions to the prospect of free vote indicative votes.   

 

It's as if the world has cracked in two.

 

I want ma Brexit.  Geez ma sovereignty.

Ok we're stuck. We need our sovereign parliament to find a way through.

Nut!!!  It's no fair.

 

I guess sovereign democracy only counts for something if it serves a specific function.      

[Francis Albert]

49 minutes ago, Victorian said:

It never seems to resonate with people that even a small and short,   temporary worsening of household prosperity can have a dramatic effect on people who are living on the edges of poverty or who are profoundly constrained by mortgages and such like.    

 

If only a tiny percentage of families suffer severe financial trauma as a result of wholly avoidable self harm,    then it's too many at that.     Not that those most vocal of wealthy,   comfortable politicians even seem to recognise.    

After over 40 years in the glorious EU (when as a nation we have become richer) why are so many people living on the brink of financial disaster? And so many in other parts of the EU actually experiencing it. 40% youth unemployment in much of Southern Europe for example.

It actually has little to do with the EU. It has to do with policies that support and exacerbate here and elsewhere ever growing inequality in the distribution of wealth and income. (Well the EU's so called "free movement of people" or more precisely free movement of labour has something to do with it. And the free movement of capital too)

And you know what? When a party attempts seriously to address those issues and looks like being in with a chance of power - maybe in the future a Corbyn led Labour party for example - the same experts now predicting dire economic consequences will be doing so, only more so. And the CBI and businesses and the financial markets will be even more vociferous and negative than now.

I am old enough to remember when a real (or a least more real) Labour Government was immediately faced by a run on the pound, and "disaster" headlines because of by todays standards extremely healthy balance of payments deficits. It's a while since a Labour Government was faced with that sort of opposition and challenge. I wonder why.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

After over 40 years in the glorious EU why are so many people living on the brink of financial disaster? And so many in other parts of the EU actually experiencing it. 40% youth unemployment in much of Southern Europe for example.

It actually has little to do with the EU. It has to do with polices that support and exacerbate here and elsewhere ever growing inequality in the distribution of wealth and income. (Well the EU's so called "free movement of people" or more precisely free movement of labour has something to do with it. And the free movement of capital too)

And you know what? When a party attempts seriously to address those issues and looks like being in with a chance of power - maybe a Corbyn led Labour party for example - the same experts now predicting dire economic consequences will be doing so, only more so. And the CBI and businesses and the financial markets will be even more vociferous and negative than now.

I am old enough to remember when a real (or a least more real) Labour Government was immediately faced by a run on the pound, and "disaster" headlines because of by todays standards extremely healthy balance of payments deficits. It's a while since a Labour Government was faced with that sort of opposition and challenge. I wonder why.

 

All very reasonable.    But all entirely unrelated to the point regarding avoidable economic self harm.     

 

What is your point?     People are poor anyway... might as well make them poorer and make more people poor?

 

 

[Costanza]

14 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

My thoughts remain that he's handled all this as well as he could have; that Labour's alternative plan (which the EU have praised) is a good one; that people who blame him for all this cannot do basic maths... and that Labour have to think of working class Brexiteers as well as middle class Remainers.

 

As for Watson - do not get me started.

Corbyn wanted to trigger Article 50 the day after the referendum; that was a huge judgement of error, even more so when you consider how it has gone since we did actually trigger it.

My main problem with Corbyn is that I just don't believe him on Europe. 

I have absolutely no doubt that if he was still a backbench MP, he would be with Skinner and Hoey in advocating a Lexit.

His voting record on Europe, his speeches on Europe and his misunderstanding of the EU state aid rules lead me to that conclusion. 

Notwithstanding his Director of Strategy being Seamus Milne who he has on occasion when meeting May to discuss Brexit, taken rather than his own Brexit Shadow Minister Keir Starmer.

[Francis Albert]

14 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

All very reasonable.    But all entirely unrelated to the point regarding avoidable economic self harm.     

 

What is your point?     People are poor anyway... might as well make them poorer and make more people poor?

 

 

A disproportionate number of poor people voted to Leave. But of course they are thick and don't know what's good for them. All those well off people who can afford a day out in London to protest and Luvvies appealing for us to support the Revoke petition know best.

 

My point (which I thought clever Remain supporters would get) is that the fundamental problem of poverty and people living on the brink of poverty is nothing to do with whether we are in or out of the EU. And there are some reasons for thinking being in the EU hinders rather than helps address inequality of income and wealth. Capital for example is free to move to the best tax havens Europe can provide  - Ireland and Luxembourg to name two, depriving other countries of billions upon billions of tax income while enjoying all the  benefits of the common market and the "freedoms" that come with it.

[Mikey1874]

Just a few idiots as usual 

 

 

[Notts1874]

I won't respond directly to the troll but nobody is calling people thick.

 

" Contempt for the conmen compassion for the conned"

[Victorian]

27 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

A disproportionate number of poor people voted to Leave. But of course they are thick and don't know what's good for them. All those well off people who can afford a day out in London to protest and Luvvies appealing for us to support the Revoke petition know best.

 

My point (which I thought clever Remain supporters would get) is that the fundamental problem of poverty and people living on the brink of poverty is nothing to do with whether we are in or out of the EU. And there are some reasons for thinking being in the EU hinders rather than helps address inequality of income and wealth. Capital for example is free to move to the best tax havens Europe can provide  - Ireland and Luxembourg to name two, depriving other countries of billions upon billions of tax income while enjoying all the  benefits of the common market and the "freedoms" that come with it.

 

Nobody ever suggests the voters are thick.     That's another invention from the Brexiteers compendium of fairytales.

 

People can quite easily understand your opinions as stated.     It still has very little to do with the point of hard Brexit related disruption and economic shock.     But you are well aware of this.    

[Francis Albert]

21 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I won't respond directly to the troll but nobody is calling people thick.

 

" Contempt for the conmen compassion for the conned"

Leave voters have often been called thick  and that is of course what the "troll"was referring to.

Mind you if I were a leave voter  I think I would rather be called thick than be patronized by "compassion".

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Notts1874]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Leave voters have often been called thick  and that is of course what the "troll"was referring to.

Mind you if I were a leave voters  I think I would rather be called thick than be patronized by "compassion".

 

Your previous post was pathetically passive aggressive. You are nothing but a troll.

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Notts1874 said:

Your previous post was pathetically passive aggressive. You are nothing but a troll.

Thanks for the privilege of being addressed directly. Even if in a pathetically actively aggressive way.

[Captain Sausage]

So two years on, we are finally in a place where chief Brexit troll has admitted we will be worse off in the medium term (definition tbc). But it doesn’t really matter, because people are poor regardless of the EU so it’s okay to make them worse off (at least in the medium term) and add more people into poverty. 

 

Add to that, our very own Dostoyevsky has rejoined the debate, ramping up the rhetoric (no medical supplies, impossible queues to leave/enter, lack of food, etc) and crediting Corbyn with doing his best. It’s exactly this type of blinkered fanboy bullshit that has got us into this mess. People led down the garden path because of an absolute refusal to look objectively at things. Orwell got it spot on when he coined the term ‘doublethink’. 

 

In the end, it’s pretty clear that Brexit is a shambles, being led by a shambolic government who have been given the space to behave as such by an equally shambolic opposition.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

13 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

So two years on, we are finally in a place where chief Brexit troll has admitted we will be worse off in the medium term (definition tbc). But it doesn’t really matter, because people are poor regardless of the EU so it’s okay to make them worse off (at least in the medium term) and add more people into poverty. 

 

Add to that, our very own Dostoyevsky has rejoined the debate, ramping up the rhetoric (no medical supplies, impossible queues to leave/enter, lack of food, etc) and crediting Corbyn with doing his best. It’s exactly this type of blinkered fanboy bullshit that has got us into this mess. People led down the garden path because of an absolute refusal to look objectively at things. Orwell got it spot on when he coined the term ‘doublethink’. 

 

In the end, it’s pretty clear that Brexit is a shambles, being led by a shambolic government who have been given the space to behave as such by an equally shambolic opposition.

The only post on this utterly rancid thread that sums matters up perfectly.

[Notts1874]

20 minutes ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

The only post on this utterly rancid thread that sums matters up perfectly.

Hey don't dismiss my Alan Partridge " Give me a second referendum you shit" post/picture as glibly as that ??

 

 

[Francis Albert]

50 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

So two years on, we are finally in a place where chief Brexit troll has admitted we will be worse off in the medium term (definition tbc). But it doesn’t really matter, because people are poor regardless of the EU so it’s okay to make them worse off (at least in the medium term) and add more people into poverty. 

 

Add to that, our very own Dostoyevsky has rejoined the debate, ramping up the rhetoric (no medical supplies, impossible queues to leave/enter, lack of food, etc) and crediting Corbyn with doing his best. It’s exactly this type of blinkered fanboy bullshit that has got us into this mess. People led down the garden path because of an absolute refusal to look objectively at things. Orwell got it spot on when he coined the term ‘doublethink’. 

 

In the end, it’s pretty clear that Brexit is a shambles, being led by a shambolic government who have been given the space to behave as such by an equally shambolic opposition.

Of course the Chief Brexit Troll didn't say that. Or anything like it.

 

Anyway even the Guardian comes up with the odd shaft of light among the gloom.

 

The UK has in the last year moved up from 19th to 15th place in the World Happiness League. Of course the Guardian doesn't believe that can possibly be right.

 

And the UK has so far (even before we leave)  completed trade deals worth £47bn to replace the trade deals the EU has with third party countries, getting on for half the total value of such trade. Of course the Guardian sees this a glass half empty - it seemed mildly encouraging to me.

 

Oh and forgive a bit of schadenfreude but the German, French and Italian economies continue to teeter on the brink of recession while the UK economy continues to grow ahead of forecast.

[Mikey1874]

8 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Unfortunately this isn’t the case this thread is littered with people insuatiating that leavers are thick, racists etc etc. 

 

People csn hide behind semantics (not calling all voters thick just the ones who are) all they want but the suggestion is there and is a very consistent narrative. 

 

Its no more genuine than all remainders are anti democratic, sore losers etc just straw men build by people to try and discredit arguments

 

Easier than debating the point I guess, but not constructive.

 

People could do with debating in a more civil manner, when people get to the stage on name calling they can’t be taken seriously,. 

 

A belief that your right right doesn’t give people a right to act like *****!

 

Most people have put the blame where it is due. 

 

On the May government.