Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Notts1874]

3 minutes ago, luckydug said:

38% of the Scottish Electorate voted to leave.

62% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay.

Not sure where you got your figures from as it has been widely reported on.

Side of a bus?

[luckydug]

4 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Side of a bus?

?

[Cruyff Turn]

11 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Side of a bus?

?

[luckydug]

43 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

One question I will ask? How is wrong for the UK to express their Nationalism but OK for Scotland to do so? Both the same yet one derided. 

Perhaps because the UK is a collection of countries put together for financial reasons hundreds of years ago.

Many people feel that Scotland is a nation in its own right and do not feel the same loyalty to a union dominated by a larger nation. 

It's like how we joined the common market as it was for financial benefits but do not have any emotional attachment.

All imo of course.

[DETTY29]

7 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

One question I will ask? How is wrong for the UK to express their Nationalism but OK for Scotland to do so? Both the same yet one derided. 

And something that SNP haven't really answered well despite the simple answer is wanting apart to be an independent country in the EU like the other 26.

 

The rhetoric between both campaigns was significantly different and ironically the Scottish National Party campaign was more about independence than nationalism, UKIP nationalism rather than independence.

Edited March 20, 2019 by DETTY29

[Class of 75]

7 hours ago, Notts1874 said:

I asked you a simple question that you didn't even have the decency to answer.

I will ask it again. Specifically why will you and your family be better out of the EU than in?

Notts I wasn't ignoring you, sorry if it came across that way. As stated on a previous post I was fortunate enough to study the EU at length and made my decision that in my opinion it was better for the UK to leave the EU than remain. This was for several reasons which may or may not benefit my family and I in the future but when asked for my opinion in a democratic vote I gave it. I don't want to come across as arrogant so apologies if doing do. This is just my opinion on a difficult subject matter. 

[Class of 75]

7 hours ago, Notts1874 said:

Side of a bus?

Yep I will take that hit. It was nearer 40% as opposed to over it. I stand corrected

[Class of 75]

7 hours ago, luckydug said:

Perhaps because the UK is a collection of countries put together for financial reasons hundreds of years ago.

Many people feel that Scotland is a nation in its own right and do not feel the same loyalty to a union dominated by a larger nation. 

It's like how we joined the common market as it was for financial benefits but do not have any emotional attachment.

All imo of course.

Of course. But you could argue that this is the same situation with the EU with Germany at its head. This is again just my opinion in what I hope is a friendly debate. 

[hughesie27]

Check out @RobDunsmore’s Tweet:

 

She'll get away with it though. 

[King prawn]

9 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Check out @RobDunsmore’s Tweet:

 

She'll get away with it though. 

“Don’t mansplain it to me” 

 

She will get away with that also. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 hours ago, luckydug said:

Perhaps because the UK is a collection of countries put together for financial reasons hundreds of years ago.

Many people feel that Scotland is a nation in its own right and do not feel the same loyalty to a union dominated by a larger nation. 

It's like how we joined the common market as it was for financial benefits but do not have any emotional attachment.

All imo of course.

Spot on.

[The Real Maroonblood]

18 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Check out @RobDunsmore’s Tweet:

 

She'll get away with it though. 

She’s an arse.

[Justin Z]

1 hour ago, Class of 75 said:

Of course. But you could argue that this is the same situation with the EU with Germany at its head. This is again just my opinion in what I hope is a friendly debate. 

 

You could argue that, I guess, but it wouldn't make any sense. As already noted recently in this thread, Westminster could end the Scottish Parliament today if it voted to do so. Neither Germany, nor the EU legislative bodies generally, possess even 1% of such a power. Their scope is extremely limited, by treaty, from Maastricht to Lisbon. Until such a time the UK and all the other members unanimously agreed to increase that power, this scope would never grow.

 

So, to say your argument is comparing apples and oranges is doing a disservice to the analogy because they are both fruit. Try asteroids and haemorrhoids. One headed your way can destroy your entire planet, the other is a minor pain occasionally, but you wouldn't want to lose the ability to shit, so you deal with them instead of ripping your arse clean out.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Justin Z

[Bindy Badgy]

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

Why is the same question not asked of those who voted to remain? 

 

It's obvious that people that voted Remain were voting for things to remain the same as they were before the referendum.

[Jamboelite]

24 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

You could argue that, I guess, but it wouldn't make any sense. As already noted recently in this thread, Westminster could end the Scottish Parliament today if it voted to do so. Neither Germany, nor the EU legislative bodies generally, possess even 1% of such a power. Their scope is extremely limited, by treaty, from Maastricht to Lisbon. Until such a time the UK and all the other members unanimously agreed to increase that power, this scope would never grow.

 

So, to say your argument is comparing apples and oranges is doing a disservice to the analogy because they are both fruit. Try asteroids and haemorrhoids. One headed your way can destroy your entire planet, the other is a minor pain occasionally, but you wouldn't want to lose the ability to shit, so you deal with them instead of ripping your arse clean out.

 

 

?

[luckydug]

32 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

You could argue that, I guess, but it wouldn't make any sense. As already noted recently in this thread, Westminster could end the Scottish Parliament today if it voted to do so. Neither Germany, nor the EU legislative bodies generally, possess even 1% of such a power. Their scope is extremely limited, by treaty, from Maastricht to Lisbon. Until such a time the UK and all the other members unanimously agreed to increase that power, this scope would never grow.

 

So, to say your argument is comparing apples and oranges is doing a disservice to the analogy because they are both fruit. Try asteroids and haemorrhoids. One headed your way can destroy your entire planet, the other is a minor pain occasionally, but you wouldn't want to lose the ability to shit, so you deal with them instead of ripping your arse clean out.

 

 

You should go on question time with that argument ?

[Victorian]

More blame shifting.

 

No10 spokesman says that the public "fed up with parliament's failure to take a decision"  and the PM "shares their frustration".     

 

PM blaming everyone else again.    Parliament is under no obligation to rubber stamp the only show in town.    Parliament has been repeatedly prevented from exploring alternative proposals.     

 

When Hitler was presiding over a failed military strategy and Germany was about to implode,    he blamed his generals for everything.     I see this as no different.      

 

She operates a dictatorship in the areas she can but she has to switch to pragmatism in cabinet.     Cabinet can bring her down so she cowers to them.    It now seems that the hard Brexit side of cabinet has prevented her from asking for the longer extension.     

Edited March 20, 2019 by Victorian

[SE16 3LN]

9 hours ago, luckydug said:

38% of the Scottish Electorate voted to leave.

62% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay.

Not sure where you got your figures from as it has been widely reported on.

I'm not sure where you got your figures from but the ones you quote were as a % of those who voted, not the Scottish electorate. Almost one third didn't vote which was the second lowest turnout in the UK, after Northern Ireland. It matters little of course as it was a UK election but the majority of the Scottish electorate either voted to leave or didn't vote at all.

[SE16 3LN]

16 minutes ago, Victorian said:

More blame shifting.

 

No10 spokesman says that the public "fed up with parliament's failure to take a decision"  and the PM "shares their frustration".     

 

PM blaming everyone else again.    Parliament is under no obligation to rubber stamp the only show in town.    Parliament has been repeatedly prevented from exploring alternative proposals.     

 

When Hitler was presiding over a failed military strategy and Germany was about to implode,    he blamed his generals for everything.     I see this as no different.      

 

She operates a dictatorship in the areas she can but she has to switch to pragmatism in cabinet.     Cabinet can bring her down so she cowers to them.    It now seems that the hard Brexit side of cabinet has prevented her from asking for the longer extension.     

Mate you need to take a break.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, SE16 3LN said:

I'm not sure where you got your figures from but the ones you quote were as a % of those who voted, not the Scottish electorate. Almost one third didn't vote which was the second lowest turnout in the UK, after Northern Ireland. It matters little of course as it was a UK election but the majority of the Scottish electorate either voted to leave or didn't vote at all.

Of course an even bigger majority either voted to remain or didn't vote at all.

[Victorian]

Cabinet member has told Laura Kuenssberg that asking for a short extension (as forced by Brexiteers) is "weak".    "This substantially increases the risk of no deal.    Her most craven surrender to the hardliners yet.   She knows this is the wrong choice for the country but she's putting her short term interests first".

 

Seems to suggest two things.    That she's being worked from the back by elements in cabinet who threaten her future as PM.    That she's just blundering on in blind panic that the increased threat of no deal will be enough to force parliament to surrender at gunpoint.    That is the final roll of the dice and if all goes wrong,    the ground bait of blame is already being chucked into the pond.

 

Not good signs leaking out right now.    Not good at all.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Victorian

[Victorian]

4 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Mate you need to take a break.

 

No I don't.   It's a simple comparison of psychology.     

[SE16 3LN]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Of course an even bigger majority either voted to remain or didn't vote at all.

So the stats are bollocks

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

So the stats are bollocks

Only when they don't suit, it's fairly obvious that a sizeable majority of the Scottish electorate didn't vote for this massive change. 

[SE16 3LN]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

No I don't.   It's a simple comparison of psychology.     

Is it aye?

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Is it aye?

Mate you need to take a break.

[SE16 3LN]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Only when they don't suit, it's fairly obvious that a sizeable majority of the Scottish electorate didn't vote for this massive change. 

33% didn't give a ****. but as I say it was a UK vote. Personally I don't think such a small majority should be able to deliver a constitutional change of this magnitude. Something like 55-45 should be required. Should be the same for an independence referendum in my opinion.

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

33% didn't give a ****. but as I say it was a UK vote. Personally I don't think such a small majority should be able to deliver a constitutional change of this magnitude. Something like 55-45 should be required. Should be the same for an independence referendum in my opinion.

 

I do agree, a decent majority of a sizeable chunk of the electorate should be required for such major sea change to be justified. 

The fact that this wasn't specified just further illustrates what a poorly thought through shit show this whole thing has been from start to finish.

I mean, when you do the sums only 25.4% of the Scottish electorate voted to leave the EU, that's surely an obviously weak mandate by anyone's standard. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Smithee

[DETTY29]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

Check out @RobDunsmore’s Tweet:

 

She'll get away with it though. 

 

 

[Victorian]

Other MPs should now try everything to publicise the message that alternative options have been and continue to be prevented.      If the narrative from No10 is one of 'parliament's fault for dithering' then the public should be told that there is an undemocratic and highly damaging denial of process taking place.

 

There's only one likely majority in the house.     A softer version of Brexit,   at least during the transition.     But house business is under the total control of the government.     There is no mechanism for MPs to be able to impose their consensus view.

 

Denial of process.    Take the blame instead.

[SE16 3LN]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I do agree, a decent majority of a sizeable chunk of the electorate should be required for such major sea change to be justified. 

The fact that this wasn't specified just further illustrates what a poorly thought through shit show this whole thing has been from start to finish.

I mean, when you do the sums only 25.4% of the Scottish electorate voted to leave the EU, that's surely an obviously weak mandate by anyone's standard. 

Yeah, but it was the UK electorate that was being asked.

[Justin Z]

38 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

I'm not sure where you got your figures from but the ones you quote were as a % of those who voted, not the Scottish electorate. Almost one third didn't vote which was the second lowest turnout in the UK, after Northern Ireland. It matters little of course as it was a UK election but the majority of the Scottish electorate either voted to leave or didn't vote at all.

 

34 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Of course an even bigger majority either voted to remain or didn't vote at all.

 

29 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

So the stats are bollocks

 

22 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

33% didn't give a ****. but as I say it was a UK vote.

 

 

22 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Personally I don't think such a small majority should be able to deliver a constitutional change of this magnitude. Something like 55-45 should be required. Should be the same for an independence referendum in my opinion.

 

3 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Yeah, but it was the UK electorate that was being asked.

 

Seeing as only 37.5% of the British electorate voted to Leave, I'm really not sure where you're going with any of this.

 

22 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Mate you need to take a break.

 

??

 

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Justin Z

[luckydug]

35 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

I'm not sure where you got your figures from but the ones you quote were as a % of those who voted, not the Scottish electorate. Almost one third didn't vote which was the second lowest turnout in the UK, after Northern Ireland. It matters little of course as it was a UK election but the majority of the Scottish electorate either voted to leave or didn't vote at all.

If you count non voters then even less of the Scottish people voted to leave the EU.

Anyway you know fine well what I meant as only votes cast count a jot.

Class of 75 conceded the point anyway.

Nit picking your favourite hobby ?

[SE16 3LN]

3 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seeing as only 37.5% of the British electorate voted to Leave, I'm really not sure where you're going with any of this.

 

 

??

 

 

Your approach is a bit scatter gun and if you can't grasp basic concepts you shouldn't blame others but try and read up a bit yourself. I don't think major constitutional change should be made on such small margins. However, that goes for all major constitutional changes and not just the ones that suit an individuals agenda. Now **** off with your cartoon face responses and come back with something we can debate.

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Yeah, but it was the UK electorate that was being asked.

Of course, I was just responding to your point that a majority of Scots either voted leave or didn't vote.

[Notts1874]

6 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Your approach is a bit scatter gun and if you can't grasp basic concepts you shouldn't blame others but try and read up a bit yourself. I don't think major constitutional change should be made on such small margins. However, that goes for all major constitutional changes and not just the ones that suit an individuals agenda. Now **** off with your cartoon face responses and come back with something we can debate.

[jack D and coke]

12 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

One question I will ask? How is wrong for the UK to express their Nationalism but OK for Scotland to do so? Both the same yet one derided. 

Moot point. 

Both are derided depending on your views. 

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

3 hours ago, King prawn said:

“Don’t mansplain it to me” 

 

She will get away with that also. 

She's a horrible, ignorant, English, bint.

[Cade]

Tories fielding lots of "urgent questions" today, in a lame attempt to filibuster and take up so much time that no emergency debates and motions can be put forward.

 

I remember something about the EU being undemocratic but the last three years have made a mockery of that particular complaint.

[Justin Z]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

 

For real though.

[Victorian]

20 minutes ago, Cade said:

Tories fielding lots of "urgent questions" today, in a lame attempt to filibuster and take up so much time that no emergency debates and motions can be put forward.

 

I remember something about the EU being undemocratic but the last three years have made a mockery of that particular complaint.

 

Yep.    May using her proxies again.     Denial of process.    Parliament's role is to rubber stamp or take the blame.

 

More needs to be aired about this.    The public will hoover up the blame being slung around elsewhere unless MPs begin to stand up for themselves.    

[The Mighty Thor]

Listening to her at PMQs it's as if she's done a Bobby Ewing and the last 1000 days haven't happened and she's had nothing to do with the current shit show. 

It's a genuinely staggering performance. 

 

No wonder the EU are head in hands at the minute.

[Brighton Jambo]

What no-one has been able to do is remove the politics from the issue - now is the time that this has to happen.

 

The deal she has secured is realistically as good as its going to get given the EU have shown no inclination to budge and why would they.

 

If you take a step back that deal represents the majority of what leavers wanted.   Tory/Labour MP's in leave constituencies should be voting for that deal but Labour wont as to frustrate and cause chaos is their best hope for forcing a general election and Tory's wont as it is against some bizarre ideological viewpoint.

 

Parliament have ruled out no deal, both main parties ran on manifesto's of honouring the result, this is the best (albeit limited) deal we can get so this deal should pass comfortably but people are playing politics. 

 

I am sympathetic to ideas like a Norway plus or whatever but I blame Labour entirely for that not being an option.  Until recently one of their six tests was that we needed to have the EXACT same benefits from the deal as we had before which was absolutely ludicrous.  Had they tabled Norway plus as their position 18 months ago I believe they could have commanded a cross party majority for it, including for the Tories, instead they became obsessed with forcing a general election and this is where we end up.

 

If May cant get the deal through by 30th June then there will be no choice but to revoke Article 50 as a no deal wont happen.  She will resign and or be forced out via a no confidence vote (Brexiteers would vote against her if A50 revoked).  In the ensuing general election each party would have to lay out exactly how it would resolve this which essentially becomes a second referendum/public vote on the preferred option. 

 

Sorted!!

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Deal has to be passed by June then. 

 

Will have missed the European Elections on 23 May too. 

[Victorian]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

Deal has to be passed by June then. 

 

Will have missed the European Elections on 23 May too. 

 

Burning the bridge of the long extension.     The hardliners are back in control.

[Cruyff Turn]

Junker saying that she’s asked for an extension until June but shouldn’t get one past the date of the EU elections on the 23rd of May and won’t get one at all unless she has a coherent plan that will pass in the commons.

 

No deal it will be. 

[Victorian]

Just when you think it couldn't get worse.

[XB52]

Agree with Junker. If we get an extension till end of June then we are out of the EU at that date come what may as we won't have any MEPs then. Extend it till the elections or for 2 years and hold elections for our MEPs. It all looks like May doing everything she can to force MPs to vote for her deal. A deal nobody actually wants

[The Mighty Thor]

It's no way to run a country. 

[Costanza]

You'd think we would have learnt from stupidly triggering Article 50 before we had a semblance of a deal agreed but no, clearly not. 

I wasn't fully in agreement with some views that the plan was for no deal all along and then blame the EU and/or Parliament as surely no one would be that reckless or callous to inflict that devastation on the economy but then.....