Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Unknown user]

12 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

Broken clock and all that.

 

i forgot millaband was still a mp!

 

And I forgot how much we're pissing off our closest neighbours and biggest trading partners.

United Kluster**** 

[Victorian]

It would be a remarkable achievement for Labour and others to reach a cross bench consensus alernative plan.     It could come to a vote and even win.

 

But the government would still need to legislate.     We're now seeing May openly shrug her shoulders and effectively say **** you all,  it's still my way or no way.      I don't think there's much prospect of that changing.

 

The executive arm of parliament must have executive powers with which to govern.    But it's stranglehold over legislation is the main weakness of process that I've been going on about.     It requires the observance of tacitly understood customs and protocols.    Nothing prevents it being exploited as it is now.    

Edited March 14, 2019 by Victorian

[Victorian]

Another thing we're seeing (can't actually believe I am) is the government appearing to replicate motions that are being proposed by others... and when they're read,   they turn out to mean something very different to the original intended purpose.

 

There's only one description of that.     Fraudulent practice.    Once more there's no mechanism to bring them to account over it.      Fraud with impunity.

 

These weaknesses are not new but nobody in history has ever had the outright temerity to do what's happening.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Victorian

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

And you are quoting from that reliable rag of an excuse for a news paper? Words fail me

 

Absolute garbage response. It's a direct quote of Farage he's never denied.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Jambo100 said:

Says a lot for the Tories when they go to bed with the D U P.In N I they represent 16% yet rule the 100%. I have never seen such scum in my life.Apart from Moggs.

Sad but true.

[Justin Z]

14 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The executive arm of parliament must have executive powers with which to govern.    But it's stranglehold over legislation is the main weakness of process that I've been going on about.     It requires the observance of tacitly understood customs and protocols.    Nothing prevents it being exploited as it is now.    

 

It started with the government just flat out ignoring the Sewel Convention when the Scottish Parliament wished to involve itself in devolved matters, as it is legally entitled to do under the terms of the Scotland Act 1998/2016, thereby demonstrating what a complete irrelevance devolution actually is. "Well, we did give you these powers, and they're directly related to this legislative matter at hand, but we don't care. Westminster is sovereign and omnipotent and Holyrood doesn't matter". A single vote in London held at any time could end the Scottish Parliament.

 

Show me again where the EU has anything even remotely beginning to think about approaching power like that. "Leave" is an absolute lie.

[Victorian]

10 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

It started with the government just flat out ignoring the Sewel Convention when the Scottish Parliament wished to involve itself in devolved matters, as it is legally entitled to do under the terms of the Scotland Act 1998/2016, thereby demonstrating what a complete irrelevance devolution actually is. "Well, we did give you these powers, and they're directly related to this legislative matter at hand, but we don't care. Westminster is sovereign and omnipotent and Holyrood doesn't matter". A single vote in London held at any time could end the Scottish Parliament.

 

Show me again where the EU has anything even remotely beginning to think about approaching power like that. "Leave" is an absolute lie.

 

Absolutely correct.     The EU is lamented as preventing national sovereignty having primacy.    But our sovereignty is totally exposed to dictatorship.     

 

We have the worst sovereign parliamentary system in the developed world.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Jambo100 said:

Says a lot for the Tories when they go to bed with the D U P.In N I they represent 16% yet rule the 100%. I have never seen such scum in my life.Apart from Moggs.

In Parliament at present aren't Labour, Lib Dems and SNP effectively in bed with the DUP in rejecting May's plan?

 

If they voted May's compromise half in half out deal through the DUP would withdraw their support for the Government and Corbyn could have his general election.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Boris]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

In Parliament at present aren't Labour, Lib Dems and SNP effectively in bed with the DUP in rejecting May's plan?

 

Is that the sound of a barrel I hear being scraped?

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Is that the sound of a barrel I hear being scraped?

No it's a question.

Or observation.

Every barrel has already been scraped on this thread. Hundreds if not thousands of times.

[Victorian]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

In Parliament at present aren't Labour, Lib Dems and SNP effectively in bed with the DUP in rejecting May's plan?

 

If they voted May's compromise half in half out deal through the DUP would withdraw their support for the Government and Corbyn could have his general election.

 

In theory.    But in practice I believe we'll see the DUP discover a way to keep it's claw up May's farter.      They have a chip in the game regarding the future deal.

[AlimOzturk]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

In Parliament at present aren't Labour, Lib Dems and SNP effectively in bed with the DUP in rejecting May's plan?

 

If they voted May's compromise half in half out deal through the DUP would withdraw their support for the Government and Corbyn could have his general election.

 

None of the above parties bribed the DUP to the tune of a billion pounds that is what is called getting into bed one someone.  

[Unknown user]

The kraken wakes!

[Class of 75]

2 hours ago, Costanza said:

He was quoted in an interview. 

Maybe you could provide me evidence he denied saying it or sued the Mirror for misquoting him.

Possibly but that paper reports from the opposite agenda

[Class of 75]

12 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

In Parliament at present aren't Labour, Lib Dems and SNP effectively in bed with the DUP in rejecting May's plan?

 

If they voted May's compromise half in half out deal through the DUP would withdraw their support for the Government and Corbyn could have his general election.

Yet it also acceptable for the SNP to be the majority party in Scotland when they have less than 50% of the anti unionist vote. Conveniently buried under the carpet 

[Class of 75]

41 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Absolute garbage response. It's a direct quote of Farage he's never denied.

Why bother attending a parliament with no power and is a parliament in name only? 

[Victorian]

The next election is going to be an absolute scream.    I reckon there will be an all time record number of gained/lost seats,   across the main parties.     As many as 200+.      Retribution is coming for lots of MPs.     Some deserved,   some not so deserved.      Voters,  more than ever,   will vote based on perceived treachery.    Some real,    some bogus.

 

We'll probably end up with a landscape which makes any possible coalition quite difficult to achieve.     Yet more chaos.

[Francis Albert]

10 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

None of the above parties bribed the DUP to the tune of a billion pounds that is what is called getting into bed one someone.  

There is more than one way of getting into bed with someone. Financial inducement is not the only way.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The next election is going to be an absolute scream.    I reckon there will be an all time record number of gained/lost seats,   across the main parties.     As many as 200+.      Retribution is coming for lots of MPs.     Some deserved,   some not so deserved.      Voters,  more than ever,   will vote based on perceived treachery.    Some real,    some bogus.

 

We'll probably end up with a landscape which makes any possible coalition quite difficult to achieve.     Yet more chaos.

Your input to this thread is well appreciated.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

The next election is going to be an absolute scream.    I reckon there will be an all time record number of gained/lost seats,   across the main parties.     As many as 200+.      Retribution is coming for lots of MPs.     Some deserved,   some not so deserved.      Voters,  more than ever,   will vote based on perceived treachery.    Some real,    some bogus.

 

We'll probably end up with a landscape which makes any possible coalition quite difficult to achieve.     Yet more chaos.

Why more chaos? In almost all of the rest of Europe coalitions are the norm and often difficult to achieve (Merkel's took three months to cobble together after her last election) and often short lived (Italy  averages  several a year)?

 

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The next election is going to be an absolute scream.    I reckon there will be an all time record number of gained/lost seats,   across the main parties.     As many as 200+.      Retribution is coming for lots of MPs.     Some deserved,   some not so deserved.      Voters,  more than ever,   will vote based on perceived treachery.    Some real,    some bogus.

 

We'll probably end up with a landscape which makes any possible coalition quite difficult to achieve.     Yet more chaos.

 

The key thing is what will be the position of the main parties. 

 

Respecting the 2016 referendum currently is the position of the leaders. Setting out the final EU relationship will also be helpful. 

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Why bother attending a parliament with no power and is a parliament in name only? 

 

If a powerless parliament in name only what independent control is being taken back?

 

Can you quit with the non-sequiturs? I've never once brought up Farage's pathetic attendance record.

[Victorian]

Official.    MV3 next week.     Set against her implying that the request for an extension will be for a long one if MV3 fails again.     This represents another direct threat issued to the ERG.      Implication is that long delay increases the chance of no Brexit.     

 

The DUP again are key.     If the DUP can be bought,   the ERG will jump too,   to save Brexit and save face.     If the DUP stand firm we are heading for a long extension.

 

[Taffin]

19 hours ago, Cade said:

JAYSUS FECKING CHRIST

FA STILL BANGING ON ABOUT THE IRISH BORDER NOT BEING A MASSIVE ISSUE WHEN THE ENTIRE WORLD AGREES IT IS

 

 

 

I'd imagine the majority of the world couldn't care less about the Irish border.

 

 

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Why more chaos? In almost all of the rest of Europe coalitions are the norm and often difficult to achieve (Merkel's took three months to cobble together after her last election) and often short lived (Italy  averages  several a year)?

 

 

Clearly you didn't read my post yesterday about the distinct difference between coalitions in sophisticated parliaments and coalitions in Westminster.     Westminster is prey to exploitative practice.     The necessay safeguards,   checks and balances do not exist to prevent corrupt governance.

[Victorian]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The key thing is what will be the position of the main parties. 

 

Respecting the 2016 referendum currently is the position of the leaders. Setting out the final EU relationship will also be helpful. 

 

It will be determined on individual MPs voting history.     Perceived treachery.

[Unknown user]

19 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Why bother attending a parliament with no power and is a parliament in name only? 

 

7 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

If a powerless parliament in name only what independent control is being taken back?

 

Can you quit with the non-sequiturs? I've never once brought up Farage's pathetic attendance record.

 

I believe that was aimed at me. 

 

75 if the EU parliament has no power why the desperation to leave their opressive yoke? And why did Farage stand for election anyway? Don't the thousands who voted for him deserve to have their voice heard in an arena they're so concerned about?

And how does any of this make him the most reliable politician?

 

He's a ****ing arse

 

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Official.    MV3 next week.     Set against her implying that the request for an extension will be for a long one if MV3 fails again.     This represents another direct threat issued to the ERG.      Implication is that long delay increases the chance of no Brexit.     

 

The DUP again are key.     If the DUP can be bought,   the ERG will jump too,   to save Brexit and save face.     If the DUP stand firm we are heading for a long extension.

 

I bet the DUP would like to please their tory overlords but they have red lines too. 

[Victorian]

An MEP says his info is that the EU will offer a FOUR YEAR extension.

 

 

Imagine the seethe.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Victorian

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

I believe that was aimed at me. 

 

75 if the EU parliament has no power why the desperation to leave their opressive yoke? And why did Farage stand for election anyway? Don't the thousands who voted for him deserve to have their voice heard in an arena they're so concerned about?

And how does any of this make him the most reliable politician?

 

He's a ****ing arse

 

I bet the DUP would like to please their tory overlords but they have red lines too. 

 

I think the DUP are going to be difficult to predict.      They're representing an overall minority cause in their own country but are somewhat insulated from normal self interest issues due to their electorate always voting on religious,  sectarian,  cultural lines.

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, Victorian said:

An MEP says his info is that the EU will offer a FOUR YEAR extension.

 

 

Imagine the seethe.

Jesus

 

It's hard to imagine where we go from here, there are going to be a lot of very unhappy people no matter what happens.

 

The only democratic thing I can think of is to hold another referendum, with an agreement that if Remain win the subject should be revisited every 5 or 10 years. I think huge change like Brexit needs more than a 50% approval too, I'd be looking to peg it at 60% personally with a high turnout required. If we're saying this is an ongoing democratic conversation and we should have another vote then I think it's owed to both sides to keep the conversation going.

 

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

I think the DUP are going to be difficult to predict.      They're representing an overall minority cause in their own country but are somewhat insulated from normal self interest issues due to their electorate always voting on religious,  sectarian,  cultural lines.

 

This is true, but their lead arse has said that a hard border is a red line, and that May's agreement effectively crosses that line. I don't know though, the normal rule book is out the window.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Smithee

[Francis Albert]

19 minutes ago, Victorian said:

An MEP says his info is that the EU will offer a FOUR YEAR extension.

 

 

Imagine the seethe.

Barnier has said (yesterday I think) there is no consensus within the EU for offering ANY extension.

 

[Victorian]

Referendum has huge difficulties.     Full revocation of art50 almost the same difficulties.     Requesting an extension has some peril as to whether or not it would be granted at all.    Assuming it can be then the terms of it will be imposed by the EU.     The terms will be limited because the EU will not and cannot credibly impose conditions on internal UK electoral matters (election or referendum).     Conditiond attached likely to be length of extension plus accompanying strategy.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

28 minutes ago, Victorian said:

An MEP says his info is that the EU will offer a FOUR YEAR extension.

 

 

Imagine the seethe.

 

 

Christ. I think I'd rather no deal and armagedon than another four years of this

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Barnier has said (yesterday I think) there is no consensus within the EU for offering ANY extension.

 

 

Could be bluster to facilitate a deal getting through or full revocation.    Could be simple case of individual countries not wishing to show their hand.

[Victorian]

The 4 year patter could be a semi tongue in cheek GTF for May.     We know someone else will be PM before the next scheduled election.

 

"We'll give you 4 years only.     Plenty time for you to get her to **** with a safety net as well"

[Cade]

EU won't agree to an extension without a clear plan of how to progress.

They will not simply give us some extra months to kick the can down the road and argue in circles in Parliament.

 

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

EU won't agree to an extension without a clear plan of how to progress.

They will not simply give us some extra months to kick the can down the road and argue in circles in Parliament.

 

 

May has just said that the short version will only be requested if her deal passes first.    It would be an administrative delay to allow all the legislation to be enacted.    If her deal fails then the request will be for a long extension.     And yes,    the EU will impose the condition of a strategy.

 

Short extension request for May's ongoing failed plan will not happen now.    It seems.

 

It could be a very rare moment of clarity.

[Victorian]

Leadsom

 

"Vital that we (parliament) continue to treat each other with respect and understanding.    We have put our duty above all else".

 

This has to be trolling.     

[SE16 3LN]

40 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Could be bluster to facilitate a deal getting through or full revocation.    Could be simple case of individual countries not wishing to show their hand.

You mean they could be acting dishonestly

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

If a powerless parliament in name only what independent control is being taken back?

 

Can you quit with the non-sequiturs? I've never once brought up Farage's pathetic attendance record.

I have never bought the "taking back control" argument because most things the EU decide on are not in the control of a single country (unless you are China or Russia).

 

But to be fair I don't think it was ever about taking back control from the EU Parliament but from the EU Council of Ministers, Commission and other unelected EU bodies and returning the powers to a UK Government which, as current events however shambolic show, is ultimately accountable to Parliament.

 

How much say has the EU Parliament (or indeed individual EU country Parliaments) had in the Brexit negotiations? It is an issue that effects all 27 significantly.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Cade]

Dozens of amendments and motions being cobbled together today:

Blocking May from constantly pushing her deal again and again.

Parliament taking full control of Brexit from the Government.

2nd referendum amendments.

Lots of others.

 

[Boris]

29 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

 

But to be fair I don't think it was ever about taking back control from the EU Parliament but from the EU Council of Ministers, Commission and other unelected EU bodies and returning the powers to a UK Government which, as current events however shambolic show, is ultimately accountable to Parliament.

 

 

As are our EU commisioners as it is our Govt that appoints them.  The council members are our respective cabinet ministers.  How are they not accountable to Parliament?

 

The whole "taking back control" is a complete hoax.  We are part of a Union, these are the rules of the game, so we play.

 

But for the last 40 years we have been fed a diet of lies regards EU power/control at the expense of the UK.  The UK has happily signed up to these things.

 

So if the UK wants to leave the EU, then fair enough, but to make it out as if we are somehow subjegated by EU institutions is bollocks because we are part of that as it is!

 

As an aside, a wee graphic on the legislative process in the EU

 

[Notts1874]

Bercow hasn't selected the ERG amendment ruling out a 2nd referendum.

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Bercow hasn't selected the ERG amendment ruling out a 2nd referendum.

 

 

Order!

[Cade]

John Bercow, the speaker, says he is calling four amendments, plus an amendment to an amendment.

They are:

1) Sarah Wollaston’s - calling for an extension to article 50 to allow for time for a referendum on Brexit.

2) Hilary Benn’s - saying next Wednesday should be set aside for a debate that would start the process of allowing MPs to hold indicative votes on Brexit alternatives. There is also an amendment to this amendment, from Labour’s Lucy Powell, changing the timing.

3) Labour’s - saying article 50 should be extended to allow time for MPs to find a majority for a different approach to Brexit.

4) Chris Bryant’s - saying Theresa May should not be allowed to put her deal to the Commons again.

 

 

[sadj]

14 hours ago, Notts1874 said:

She has pissed off a lot of her party tonight. Even if the ERG and DUP do fold she still might not have enough votes for MV3. Plus she has now basically said a 3 Line Whip is pointless by letting ministers abstain.

 

This is a government in name only.

Yet my pathetic Tory MP still votes with May on everything Brexit related including this last vote. Represent his constituents my arse. Look after number 1 very much. Pathetic but expected.

Edited March 14, 2019 by sadj

[Notts1874]

3 minutes ago, sadj said:

Yet my pathetic Tory MP still votes with May on everything Brexit related including this last vote. Represent his constituents my arse. Look after number 1 very much. Pathetic but expected.

My local MP spent most of the past few months suspended as he got caught sending pervy texts to two barmaids.

[Cade]

4 minutes ago, sadj said:

Yet my pathetic Tory MP still votes with May on everything Brexit related including this last vote. Represent his constituents my arse. Look after number 1 very much. Pathetic but expected.

 

All the more reason to dump party politics and vote for independent local issue candidates.

[sadj]

8 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

My local MP spent most of the past few months suspended as he got caught sending pervy texts to two barmaids.

Were the barmaids hot? ? When suspended can they still vote? 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Cade said:

All the more reason to dump party politics and vote for independent local issue candidates.

I’m happy how I vote but then its neither Labour or Tory. But yeah its not about people its about garbering a career. Problem is some of these people think the constituent’s in enough numbers won’t turn on them due to high profile issues like Brexit if they vote against the constituent opinion. As @Victorian said it may be a rude awakening for some come the next general election.

 

However going by the bullying and abuse some people are subjected to on social media from people for having opinions outside of the party lines it may well not be the case. I hope it is though. Power is to westminstercentric and ignoring of the real person problems and needs now. A kick in the arse may be what the beaurocrats behind the scenes need to wake up. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by sadj

[Notts1874]

4 minutes ago, sadj said:

Were the barmaids hot? ? When suspended can they still vote? 

 

 

I’m happy how I vote but then its neither Labour or Tory. But yeah its not about people its about garbering a career. Problem is some of these people think the constituent’s in enough numbers won’t turn on them due to high profile issues like Brexit if they vote against the constituent opinion. As @Victorian said it may be a rude awakening for some come the next general election.

 

However going by the bullying and abuse some people are subjected to on social media from people for having opinions outside of the party lines it may well not be the case. I hope it is though. Power is to westminstercentric and ignoring of the real person problems and needs now. A kick in the arse may be what the beaurocrats behind the scenes need to wake up. 

Nope and nope.