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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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6 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

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Mind you, there'd better be at least £350 million a week for the NHS.  Them chlorinated chicken sandwiches ain't gonna make themselves......

 

 

....well, maybe they will when the genetically-modified ones get going.

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Seymour M Hersh
10 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Mind you, there'd better be at least £350 million a week for the NHS.  Them chlorinated chicken sandwiches ain't gonna make themselves......

 

 

....well, maybe they will when the genetically-modified ones get going.

 

So what are the Republic, net takers lets's remember, going to do with no UK dosh to be handed out? 

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Thunderstruck
18 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Mind you, there'd better be at least £350 million a week for the NHS.  Them chlorinated chicken sandwiches ain't gonna make themselves......

 

 

....well, maybe they will when the genetically-modified ones get going.

 

Talking of chlorinated chicken and transatlantic deals, did your Government allow a referendum on the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA)?  

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3 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

So what are the Republic, net takers lets's remember, going to do with no UK dosh to be handed out? 

 

 

Pay about €400 million more, according to this article. 

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-contribution-to-eu-budget-expected-to-rise-to-2-7bn-this-year-1.3467403

 

This one says what Ireland pays will "sky-rocket", though the figures don't really support the headline and lean more towards the kind of figure in the Irish Times article above.  In any case, the guy who came out with the "sky-rocket" claim is also trying to form an Irish version of UKIP, so he's not exactly unbiased.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/923167/ireland-european-union-eu-budget-payments-ray-bassett

 

Oddly enough, neither the Irish Times nor the Daily Express regards Ireland as a net recipient of EU funds, but I haven't checked their sources.

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9 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Talking of chlorinated chicken and transatlantic deals, did your Government allow a referendum on the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA)?  

 

It's not a matter of allowing or disallowing a referendum, it's a matter of what the law provides for.  We have to have a referendum in order to change the Constitution, but all other matters under the law are dealt with by Parliament or Cabinet as appropriate. 

 

But your government allowed a referendum on exiting the EU, so all's good.

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The Mighty Thor
3 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

But surely if EU sources are subject to tariffs, that will help push up domestic farm gate prices?  And presumably if the UK is no longer in the EU the government will put some subsidy architecture in place for farmers with the money saved on contributions to the EU budget.  Why wouldn't farmers be in favour of that? 

I'm sure it will push up prices for UK produced goods in the short term, however Jacob Rees Mogg has been trumpeting on about the access to cheaper food from outwith the cartel which will widen the price gap between UK produced goods and non EU goods which may in fact lead to downward price pressure on the poor beleaguered farmers with no big fat EU subsidy to fall back on.

Im sure they've already thought that through though. 

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36 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Talking of chlorinated chicken and transatlantic deals, did your Government allow a referendum on the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA)?  

 

I wasn't going to mention this and take the discussion off the subject of Brexit, but what connection do you see between the items in bold?

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm asking because under CETA, all food imports to the EU from Canada have to conform to EU rules and regulations on consumer safety, technical standards, environmental protection rules, animal and plant health and food safety (including regulations on GMOs), and as well as that the markets for poultry and eggs will not be opened.

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3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'm sure it will push up prices for UK produced goods in the short term, however Jacob Rees Mogg has been trumpeting on about the access to cheaper food from outwith the cartel which will widen the price gap between UK produced goods and non EU goods which may in fact lead to downward price pressure on the poor beleaguered farmers with no big fat EU subsidy to fall back on.

Im sure they've already thought that through though. 

 

But if the UK is trying to protect farmers, surely the UK should put tariffs on food coming from these other countries as well, and not just from Europe?

 

Isn't there a big inconsistency between what Rees-Mogg is saying and Gove's remarks?

 

What will the United Kingdom's food policy be after Brexit?

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Has there been a spate of Japanese car plant closures within the rest of the EU? Or are they only concentrated in UK?

I was looking for any articles about car plant closures in the EU and came across this from June last year. It's very interesting to read in the context of today's Honda announcement. It looks to me as though the Japanese companies are just being "polite" about the ****ed up Brexit chaotic decision making and also their view on the prospects for post Brexit UK

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/27/honda-faces-the-real-cost-of-brexit-in-a-former-spitfire-plant.html

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Thunderstruck
32 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I wasn't going to mention this and take the discussion off the subject of Brexit, but what connection do you see between the items in bold?

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm asking because under CETA, all food imports to the EU from Canada have to conform to EU rules and regulations on consumer safety, technical standards, environmental protection rules, animal and plant health and food safety (including regulations on GMOs), and as well as that the markets for poultry and eggs will not be opened.

 

I was simply asking if, given the concerns raised, whether the referendum on CETA sought by some in Ireland had proceeded. 

 

You are correct to say that poultry, eggs and other agricultural products have initial restrictions. However, a key aim of CETA is ‘regulatory alignment’. I suppose you can always hope that doesn’t lead to erosion of EU standards. The odds are not in your favour. The link to the Guardian (below) doesn’t sound optimistic in this regard. 

 

CETA is the b*****d child of TTIP which is not as dead as some hope. Both have been designed after careful consultation - with multinationals, not elected representatives. The downsides of TTIP are well known. 

 

Alarm bells have to ring when you know that, when the U.K. Government voted to adopt CETA, arch Euro-Sceptics JR-M and Boris were among the ‘Ayes’. 

 

Inside or or outside the EU, we are stuck with this whether we call it CETA or ‘Canada +’ which makes one wonder why we are all wasting our time with Brexit. 

 

Some reading...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/13/ceta-north-america-canada-european-union-trade-eu-ttip

 

https://waronwant.org/media/brexit-what-now-ttip-ceta-and-uk-trade

 

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7492

 

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The Mighty Thor
1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

But if the UK is trying to protect farmers, surely the UK should put tariffs on food coming from these other countries as well, and not just from Europe?

 

Isn't there a big inconsistency between what Rees-Mogg is saying and Gove's remarks?

 

What will the United Kingdom's food policy be after Brexit?

Food policy?

That would require a strategy or a plan. 

They're a bit thin on the ground at the moment. 

To be fair there's inconsistency between what Rees Mogg is saying one day and the next, never mind Gove or Fox or any of the rest of them. 

The farmers or any other business owner is not a consideration. It's all about delivering the dream of leaving the EU.

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53 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I was simply asking if, given the concerns raised, whether the referendum on CETA sought by some in Ireland had proceeded. 

 

 

 

 

 

I recall Sinn Féin mentioned a referendum, but it didn't get huge media traction here and in any case there was no legal basis for it.  There was more noise in the political system here about TTIP.

 

Like CETA, the EU-Japan agreement also seeks regulatory alignment.  To date that debate has more been about Japan aligning to European standards than the other way around, particularly in areas like food, car parts, pharmaceuticals and medical equipment.  A cynical way of looking at it would be that the deal gives Europe better market access, and gives Japan lower tariffs.

 

As regards CETA we have the protections we need, and a market of 445 million people will give us a degree of negotiating clout.  If the Canadians want to try wrestling with us to reduce the level of protections currently in existence we'll see how that goes.  But I'd fancy their chances of rolling over the UK first, to be honest.

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1 hour ago, RobboM said:

Has there been a spate of Japanese car plant closures within the rest of the EU? Or are they only concentrated in UK?

I was looking for any articles about car plant closures in the EU and came across this from June last year. It's very interesting to read in the context of today's Honda announcement. It looks to me as though the Japanese companies are just being "polite" about the ****ed up Brexit chaotic decision making and also their view on the prospects for post Brexit UK

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/27/honda-faces-the-real-cost-of-brexit-in-a-former-spitfire-plant.html

 

 

They seem to be concentrated in the UK, but there are more factors at play than Brexit.

 

This piece sets out in really straightforward terms why Brexit is a factor, but only a factor, in closures like Nissan and Honda, and also explains why the UK is likely to be rolling a very heavy stone up a very steep hill when it comes to negotiating trade deals without the advantages that flow from seamless links to the EEA's free trade area and single market.

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...a bit disco
12 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Euthanasia, Doc.

 

Ever seen Logan's Run?

 

Could be a nice wee earner for you, buddy. :thumbsup:

 

Soylent Green Gov.

 

Nails the food policy for the foreseeable too.

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2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

They seem to be concentrated in the UK, but there are more factors at play than Brexit.

 

This piece sets out in really straightforward terms why Brexit is a factor, but only a factor, in closures like Nissan and Honda, and also explains why the UK is likely to be rolling a very heavy stone up a very steep hill when it comes to negotiating trade deals without the advantages that flow from seamless links to the EEA's free trade area and single market.

 

 

What piece?  Why, this piece, of course.  :facepalm:

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/japan-eu-trade-deal-likely-the-biggest-factor-in-honda-move-11641288

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2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Ireland will be okay now

 

 

 

 

Wasn't me.  Whoever it was can **** right off.  :mad:

 

 

 

D'ya think I should have bought a ticket?  :nuts:

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Thunderstruck
3 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

I recall Sinn Féin mentioned a referendum, but it didn't get huge media traction here and in any case there was no legal basis for it.  There was more noise in the political system here about TTIP.

 

Like CETA, the EU-Japan agreement also seeks regulatory alignment.  To date that debate has more been about Japan aligning to European standards than the other way around, particularly in areas like food, car parts, pharmaceuticals and medical equipment.  A cynical way of looking at it would be that the deal gives Europe better market access, and gives Japan lower tariffs.

 

As regards CETA we have the protections we need, and a market of 445 million people will give us a degree of negotiating clout.  If the Canadians want to try wrestling with us to reduce the level of protections currently in existence we'll see how that goes.  But I'd fancy their chances of rolling over the UK first, to be honest.

 

When you consider the back door access that CETA gives to US corporations (all they need is a Canadian Branch Office), the balance is much more even and you (in fact, all of us) will be wrestling with more than just a few Canadians. 

 

The furore over Brexit has meant that this has largely slipped in under the radar. Maybe there is method in the madness. 

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Governor Tarkin
9 hours ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

Soylent Green Gov.

 

Nails the food policy for the foreseeable too.

 

Another day, another post-Brexit business op', Disco. ?

Edited by Governor Tarkin
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2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

wheres Krankie noo is she still on the run avoiding awkward questions ?

I believe she is "getting on with the day job"

 

 

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Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

Everything for Sturgeon is about campaigning for or promoting  independence. 

 

Keep up. 

 

Leader of the SNP promoting independence shocker!

 

But at the same time creating links with other countries.  The shame of it!

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Thunderstruck
55 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Leader of the SNP promoting independence shocker!

 

But at the same time creating links with other countries.  The shame of it!

 

To listen to some on here you would think it was only the ‘Yoons’ that harped on about independence. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

To listen to some on here you would think it was only the ‘Yoons’ that harped on about independence. 

 

 

 

It sometimes seems that way, doesn't it?

 

 

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Thunderstruck
16 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

It sometimes seems that way, doesn't it?

 

 

 

I suppose it might if the reader was applying some form of confirmation bias. 

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4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

wheres Krankie noo is she still on the run avoiding awkward questions ?

 

"Krankie"? That is sad patter. Mocking folk you don't like by giving them silly nicknames - it's probably the dumbest form of politicking I can think of.

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14 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

When you consider the back door access that CETA gives to US corporations (all they need is a Canadian Branch Office), the balance is much more even and you (in fact, all of us) will be wrestling with more than just a few Canadians. 

 

The furore over Brexit has meant that this has largely slipped in under the radar. Maybe there is method in the madness. 

 

There is an alternative approach you could take.  You could deal with what CETA says, not what you think it says, not with hidden meanings and possibilities for conspiracies, and not with some interpretation of your own designed to help you to the conclusion that Britain is good and clever while Europe is bad and stupid.

 

Or you can keep doing it your way.  To recap, you tried to read lower food standards into CETA, and I showed you why you can't. Then you tried to read a potential conspiracy into the meaning of regulatory alignment, and I showed you why you can't and why regulatory alignment has suited the EU better in its dealings with Japan.  So now you're  trying to introduce back door conspiracy theory routes for American companies with operations in Canada.  All that does is ignore the fact that CETA says what it says, and its text doesn't take on a new and secret meaning just because an exporter with a location in Ontario also has a HQ in Michigan.

 

Brexit seems to thrive on hunches, opinions and conspiracies, and an absence of facts and analysis.  If an argument has merit, real merit, it will stand on the facts.  The biggest fact in play is that with about 5 weeks to go, the UK has a very heavy stone to roll up a very steep hill just to replicate the trade agreements it has today.

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5 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

wheres Krankie noo is she still on the run avoiding awkward questions ?

Do you know how stupid and childish you show yourself by using your daft wee names. Our first minister is busy promoting our country to the world, you know, her day job.

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Thunderstruck
Just now, Ulysses said:

 

There is an alternative approach you could take.  You could deal with what CETA says, not what you think it says, not with hidden meanings and possibilities for conspiracies, and not with some interpretation of your own designed to help you to the conclusion that Britain is good and clever while Europe is bad and stupid.

 

Or you can keep doing it your way.  To recap, you tried to read lower food standards into CETA, and I showed you why you can't. Then you tried to read a potential conspiracy into the meaning of regulatory alignment, and I showed you why you can't and why regulatory alignment has suited the EU better in its dealings with Japan.  So now you're  trying to introduce back door conspiracy theory routes for American companies with operations in Canada.  All that does is ignore the fact that CETA says what it says, and its text doesn't take on a new and secret meaning just because an exporter with a location in Ontario also has a HQ in Michigan.

 

Brexit seems to thrive on hunches, opinions and conspiracies, and an absence of facts and analysis.  If an argument has merit, real merit, it will stand on the facts.  The biggest fact in play is that with about 5 weeks to go, the UK has a very heavy stone to roll up a very steep hill just to replicate the trade agreements it has today.

 

For a start and for the avoidance of doubt, I voted Remain and would prefer that we remained part of the EU - warts and all.

 

As you seem to take a narrow view of the Agreement, I will try again... It is not about a few bleached hens or cows on roids; these were simply attention grabbers. 

 

It is not about a trade deal as it is much more than that.

 

It is not about Britain v the EU.

 

It is about the threat to what’s left of our democracy and any ambition that social justice should take pride of place. And, before you launch into another supercilious comment about the UK Parliament or Brexit, I am well aware of these shortcomings. 

 

In fact, there is some sort of strange irony in a citizen of one of the largest (perhaps the largest) tax havens in the World coming on here to give Brits your almost daily lecture on ethics. 

 

I don’t imagine you will but you could take you own own advice and do some research. You might ask who negotiated the deal, who had political oversight of the deal and who had the right of veto. You might ask with whom the drafters of the deal had discussions/consultation. You might care to consider CETA in the context of the (thanks to Trump) now dormant TPP and TTIP and the WTO’s TiSA and ask if they were/are/will be simply about trade.

 

What irks me is the double standards. You can bet your bottom dollar that had we voted Remain, we would have then been in a situation where the “Remainstream Media” (the Guardian, etc.) would be in a froth about CETA. We might even have followed Germany and Belgium and had demonstrations about it. We would be hearing of the threat of privatisation of the NHS and other public services, the impact of the ISDS (where corporations can sue governments for damages arising from regulation -  which will appear once all states have ratified the agreement), and the harmonisation of standards on everything from food (yes, food) to seat-belts. We would be hearing how the agreement would further marginalise the southern EU countries or how it would marginalise smaller countries outwith the EU such as African states on the Mediterranean. 

 

I don’t often applaud the SNP but they (along with Corbyn and most Labour MPs) had the sense to vote against CETA. Read into that what you will. 

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2 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

[....]

 

Er, if you want to maintain the pretence of having facts to support your argument, don't swipe at another poster based on where they come from, don't make up stuff about what another poster has posted, and above all else don't go full conspiracy theorist.  You never go full conspiracy theorist. :eek::laugh: 

 

If you want to open a thread to discuss your feelings about TTIP and stuff like that you go right ahead, and I might even contribute.  On this thread I'm going to do my best to stick to Brexit and its associated negotiations.

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On 19/02/2019 at 15:23, Ulysses said:

 

There won't be any means to impose such tariffs at the land frontier with the Irish Republic because of the British government's commitment to no hard border on this island.

 

Isn't that unfair treatment of England, Wales and Scotland?

 

No views on this possible unfair treatment of English, Welsh and Scottish farmers?

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May just seems to be stuck in a endless loop of utter incompetence. Goes to Brussels told they cannot negotiate the Irish backstop any further asks for reassurance, goes back to Westminster told to go back and negotiate the Irish back stop and onto the loop again. 

 

 

 

 

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The Real Maroonblood
53 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

May just seems to be stuck in a endless loop of utter incompetence. Goes to Brussels told they cannot negotiate the Irish backstop any further asks for reassurance, goes back to Westminster told to go back and negotiate the Irish back stop and onto the loop again. 

 

 

 

 

It’s a script from Yes Prime Minister.

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Anna Soubry was (rightly) very critical of May's handling of Brexit.    She says that the control freakery instead of trying ti build a cross-party consensus was a major failing.    She urged May to consider the customs union and single market but that it was dismissed out of hand.    The reason she believes is that May would have to also consider free movement and that May could not do so as she has a personal problem with immigration,  dating back years.     I would question Soubry's analysis here because the reason May dismissed remaining in these institutions is very clear and simple... it would be civil war and a split in the Tory Party.     The party was put first at the expense of the national interest.

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Just now, Victorian said:

Anna Soubry was (rightly) very critical of May's handling of Brexit.    She says that the control freakery instead of trying ti build a cross-party consensus was a major failing.    She urged May to consider the customs union and single market but that it was dismissed out of hand.    The reason she believes is that May would have to also consider free movement and that May could not do so as she has a personal problem with immigration,  dating back years.     I would question Soubry's analysis here because the reason May dismissed remaining in these institutions is very clear and simple... it would be civil war and a split in the Tory Party.     The party was put first at the expense of the national interest.

 

Yes, but remember May was Home Secretary and architect of the "hostile environment".  Brexit could be very simply done, but the main sticking point/red line is free movement which May seems so set against.

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1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Yes, but remember May was Home Secretary and architect of the "hostile environment".  Brexit could be very simply done, but the main sticking point/red line is free movement which May seems so set against.

 

Yes it is reasonable to believe that May,   given her previous,   is not exactly in favour of free movement.

 

She has quite a history of operating on a zero tolerance,  dictatorial basis.     Abjectly unable to listen,  compromise,  build consensus.    Often markedly undiplomatic and dismissive.     Her handling of police concerns whilst Home Secretary was unwordly.     Basically tried to brow beat them into silence with a few stern words and one of her death stares.

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10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Yes it is reasonable to believe that May,   given her previous,   is not exactly in favour of free movement.

 

She has quite a history of operating on a zero tolerance,  dictatorial basis.     Abjectly unable to listen,  compromise,  build consensus.    Often markedly undiplomatic and dismissive.     Her handling of police concerns whilst Home Secretary was unwordly.     Basically tried to brow beat them into silence with a few stern words and one of her death stares.

 

She's bonkers!  Proper bunker mentality!

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15 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

She's bonkers!  Proper bunker mentality!

 

I would say so.   Tries to reprise the Margaret Thatcher,  Iron Lady,   thou shalt submit to my way of thinking at all times persona.    Trouble is,   Thatcher had personality and even humilty.     May's tribute act is an utter travesty.

Edited by Victorian
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  • davemclaren changed the title to Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

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