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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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49 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

So if they are going to campaign for remain what incentive will they have to get the best deal possible. It’s a laughable shambolic position. 

 

As as I said unelectable.  

 

They MIGHT campaign to remain,  based on what deal is achieved.    Remain is not a given position therefore the incentive is there to achieve a meaningful alternative.

 

The attention you have paid to Labour's policy is laughable and shambolic.    You should maybe think for yourself rather than be spoon fed what the media want you to think.

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The Mighty Thor
12 minutes ago, redjambo said:

They're finished as a mass appeal party. 

 

They will be shredded by the lib Dems and the Brexit Party in the forthcoming GE. Their heartlands of Scotland & Wales are lost to them and the North will go soon.

Finished!

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So they've de-escalated an unreasonable act to oust the deputy.    Maybe the deputy can help his and his party's cause by accepting the agreed party policy positions.    Nothing wrong with stating a personal opinion but he should spend equal effort in serving the agreed policy.    

 

If he can't then he's damaging his party.

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3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

So they've de-escalated an unreasonable act to oust the deputy.    Maybe the deputy can help his and his party's cause by accepting the agreed party policy positions.    Nothing wrong with stating a personal opinion but he should spend equal effort in serving the agreed policy.    

 

If he can't then he's damaging his party.

 

It's quite a bizarre set up.

 

It would be like Tory party with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister had Philip Hammond as Deputy. 

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Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's quite a bizarre set up.

 

It would be like Tory party with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister had Philip Hammond as Deputy. 

 

They are elected separately.    It's worked well in the past.     It's a damn sight more democratic than the Tory system.     But Watson should be more responsible and hasn't helped anyone.

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2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Are you being serious? Emily Thornberry actually said that in the event of securing a deal labour might actually then campaign against that deal.  They are a total shambles on brexit and their leader, incredibly, after three years still hasn’t made his position clear.

 

On the eve of their conference the left wing of the party is trying to force out one of the more respected and moderate front benchers.  So rather than the headlines being about their social and brexit position it’s all about infighting and the role of momentum.  

 

This is is he worst Tory government in living memory, they are a right wing, toxic mess led by a baffoon.  Yet they have a double digit polls lead over labour.  Any other opposition in any other era would be streets ahead in the polls but labour trail even the Lib Dem’s.

 

They are literally unelectable.  

Maybe Britain is right wing and this Tory party is their true face.

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If Boris Johnson goes for Thresa Mays Brexit deal with a change to the backstop, would the Lib Dems and the SNP vote it through?

Or would they stick to their guns and not accept any Brexit in the vote?

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18 minutes ago, Australis...... said:

If Boris Johnson goes for Thresa Mays Brexit deal with a change to the backstop, would the Lib Dems and the SNP vote it through?

Or would they stick to their guns and not accept any Brexit in the vote?

The SNP have been consistent that any deal that doesn't have freedom of movement is of no interest

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The Real Maroonblood
1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Supreme Court decision is tomorrow 10.30am. 

I wonder what odds the bookies are given on the outcome 

 

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Francis Albert
On 21/09/2019 at 12:16, ri Alban said:

Maybe Britain is right wing and this Tory party is their true face.

So the Tories represent the democratic will if the British people, according to you

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Francis Albert
On 21/09/2019 at 18:57, XB52 said:

The SNP have been consistent that any deal that doesn't have freedom of movement is of no interest

If the SNP seeks to achieve independence and remain in the EU while Ruk leaves with no so called "freedom of movement" what will be the SNP's position?  No Freedom of movement between Scotland and Ruk? Really?

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Francis Albert
2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I wonder what odds the bookies are given on the outcome 

 

Most speculation now  seems to suggest that the Government will lose. God knows what that will actually mean other than recall of a Parliament that seems incapable of agreeing anything.

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9 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

So the Tories represent the democratic will if the British people, according to you

Na, The BNP/Brexit/NF/Ukip, but they'll never get in, so the Tories will do.

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The Real Maroonblood
6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Most speculation now  seems to suggest that the Government will lose. God knows what that will actually mean other than recall of a Parliament that seems incapable of agreeing anything.

Fair point. 

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Brighton Jambo
13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If the SNP seeks to achieve independence and remain in the EU while Ruk leaves with no so called "freedom of movement" what will be the SNP's position?  No Freedom of movement between Scotland and Ruk? Really?

Let’s hope so because that will turn a good few thousand voters away from independence.  

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If the SNP seeks to achieve independence and remain in the EU while Ruk leaves with no so called "freedom of movement" what will be the SNP's position?  No Freedom of movement between Scotland and Ruk? Really?

:yas:

 

Can't wait. Especially to expel the Scottish traitors.

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Brighton Jambo
On 21/09/2019 at 11:26, Victorian said:

 

They MIGHT campaign to remain,  based on what deal is achieved.    Remain is not a given position therefore the incentive is there to achieve a meaningful alternative.

 

The attention you have paid to Labour's policy is laughable and shambolic.    You should maybe think for yourself rather than be spoon fed what the media want you to think.

Oh I can think for myself and how can I judge their policy when they still don’t officially have one!   A labour leader who at his own parties conference could be about to be undermined in his ‘position’ by the party membership who disagree with his position.  A shadow cabinet totally split coming out in the press disagreeing with his direction.  A deputy leader in open revolt and now even the Unions are in dispute with each other and him.  (Unison has announced a shift in position today) 

 

you keep defending Labour though it’s fun to watch! 

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Just now, Brighton Jambo said:

Oh I can think for myself and how can I judge their policy when they still don’t officially have one!   A labour leader who at his own parties conference could be about to be undermined in his ‘position’ by the party membership who disagree with his position.  A shadow cabinet totally split coming out in the press disagreeing with his direction.  A deputy leader in open revolt and now even the Unions are in dispute with each other and him.  (Unison has announced a shift in position today) 

 

you keep defending Labour though it’s fun to watch! 

 

Comfortable people are happy with the status quo. 

 

Not sure about all Labour's policies but someone needs to do some redress for those struggling in this country. 

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Both Labour and the Tories have no clear plans on Brexit and both are riven with infighting.

 

Nobody knows what to do or how to do it or if it should be done at all.

 

It's as if nobody thought anything through.

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dobmisterdobster

What on earth is going on with Labour? I am lost for words.

 

Not even the Brexit stuff but everything else.

Edited by dobmisterdobster
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Just now, dobmisterdobster said:

What on earth is going on with Labour. I am lost for words.

 

So are they!

Not only has Brexit ripped the Nation apart it’s also shredded the Labour and Tory parties. 

The parliament cant come up with a solution so it must go back to the people. 

Lets not waste time fannying around with this deal or that deal or even no deal just go back to the people and ask do you still want to leave Yes or No.

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The Mighty Thor
12 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

What on earth is going on with Labour? I am lost for words.

 

Not even the Brexit stuff but everything else.

What's going on is that the Labour party is committing suicide painfully in full public glare. 

Its remarkable that such a large body of people can collectively be so deluded as to the relevance of their party and their actions. 

Unelectable before all this nonsense and now utterly politically toxic.  

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16 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

So are they!

Not only has Brexit ripped the Nation apart it’s also shredded the Labour and Tory parties. 

The parliament cant come up with a solution so it must go back to the people. 

Lets not waste time fannying around with this deal or that deal or even no deal just go back to the people and ask do you still want to leave Yes or No.

 

And lets say Leave won again, what then?

 

We'd have the exact same situation as we have now, an electorate whose majority want to leave and a parliament whose majority want to stay.

All that would have been achieved imo is that the country would be divided even more than it is now.

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9 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

And lets say Leave won again, what then?

 

We'd have the exact same situation as we have now, an electorate whose majority want to leave and a parliament whose majority want to stay.

All that would have been achieved imo is that the country would be divided even more than it is now.

 

If it is leave again then the whole Parliament will need to get behind it or they need to abstain or dare I say stand down. No doubt they won’t though. 

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Brighton Jambo
1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Comfortable people are happy with the status quo. 

 

Not sure about all Labour's policies but someone needs to do some redress for those struggling in this country. 

I do agree about the status quo point.  I however don’t think you serve those struggling by coming up with policies that make you virtually unelectable.  A moderate centre left party right now would walk the next election against this shambles of a government if they got themselves in order.  

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2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I do agree about the status quo point.  I however don’t think you serve those struggling by coming up with policies that make you virtually unelectable.  A moderate centre left party right now would walk the next election against this shambles of a government if they got themselves in order.  

 

It's not Labour's policies that are the problem. Most are popular. 

 

Confusion over Brexit, Corbyn being unattractive the key challenges. 

 

They can overcome the media bias during election. 

Edited by Mikey1874
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Labour conference have given a democratic mandate to Corbyn's policy position.    Some of them don't like it.   Not accepting it.    Will continue to brief against it.    

 

If the policy message continues to be confused,    it's the fault of these people.    If Brexit policy to remain is the be all and end all,   these people should join LD.    They're not helping Labour to win an election. 

Edited by Victorian
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Brighton Jambo
8 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's not Labour's policies that are the problem. Most are popular. 

 

Confusion over Brexit, Corbyn being unattractive the key challenges. 

 

They can overcome the media bias during election. 

For me today was a case in point.  Coming out and saying you will introduce a 32 hour week and people won’t see people’s money drop is symptomatic of the problem.  Nobody believes what they say is credible, the proposal had no substance regards the impact on productivity, it was uncosted and the facts were wrong, (regarding totals hours worked versus other European countries).  It’s this sort of thing that means people can’t take them seriously . 

 

P.s.  this was only outdone over the weekend by the policy to replace ofsted.  Not credible or affordable, again.  

 

You say people like their policies but I’m not sure what’s coming out of they conference is pulling up many tree.  

Edited by Brighton Jambo
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2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

For me today was a case in point.  Coming out and saying you will introduce a 32 hour week and people won’t see people’s money drop is symptomatic of the problem.  Nobody believes what they say is credible, the proposal had no substance regards the impact on productivity, it was uncosted and the facts were wrong, (regarding totals hours worked versus other European countries).  It’s this sort of thing that means people can’t take them seriously . 

 

It's a policy that isn't just going to happen next week. 

 

They are going to add it to the mix of new collective bargaining arrangements. It's a longer term aspiration. 

 

But companies that have done it say it works. No reduction in output, people more productive. 

 

So another policy that could transform Britain's dire productivity and certainly could be popular. 

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Brighton Jambo
6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's a policy that isn't just going to happen next week. 

 

They are going to add it to the mix of new collective bargaining arrangements. It's a longer term aspiration. 

 

But companies that have done it say it works. No reduction in output, people more productive. 

 

So another policy that could transform Britain's dire productivity and certainly could be popular. 

I’ve spent the last decade of my career going all over the UK and the US advocating the benefits of a reduced working week and helping companies with how to actually implement it.  Empowering and trusting people to deliver and focusing on output not attendance is critical to addressing the UK’s productivity problem.  UK organisation like ‘Be the Business’ have been established to directly address this.

 

BUT!  Reduced hours working does not and cannot work in all sectors and Labour must know this and it is totally dishonest to express otherwise.  Just one example is employees in the service sector many of whom are on hourly pay it is not possible.  These are the very people who labour are trying to support.  

 

Its a cynical undeliverable promise on a topic that deserves serious consideration and undermines the wider debate about how reduced working weeks genuinely can benefit business and employees.  I should know this is my life.....!!

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dobmisterdobster

You can't win an election by treating voters like idiots. Make your mind up on Brexit before an election not after.

 

Also their proposed education reforms are terrifying. I know they won't affect Scotland. At least the SNP know not to touch that with a barge pole.

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22 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I’ve spent the last decade of my career going all over the UK and the US advocating the benefits of a reduced working week and helping companies with how to actually implement it.  Empowering and trusting people to deliver and focusing on output not attendance is critical to addressing the UK’s productivity problem.  UK organisation like ‘Be the Business’ have been established to directly address this.

 

BUT!  Reduced hours working does not and cannot work in all sectors and Labour must know this and it is totally dishonest to express otherwise.  Just one example is employees in the service sector many of whom are on hourly pay it is not possible.  These are the very people who labour are trying to support.  

 

Its a cynical undeliverable promise on a topic that deserves serious consideration and undermines the wider debate about how reduced working weeks genuinely can benefit business and employees.  I should know this is my life.....!!

 

Yes. It works. But you are right. There has to be flexibility which I think there would be. It certainly isn't workable in every work area. 

 

McDonnell is under rated in being business focused. But might not get the chance. 

 

But this is the future. 

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28 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

You can't win an election by treating voters like idiots. Make your mind up on Brexit before an election not after.

 

Also their proposed education reforms are terrifying. I know they won't affect Scotland. At least the SNP know not to touch that with a barge pole.

 

No.    They're offering a different policy to the LDs.     LD say they will unilaterally revoke.     Labour say there will be a further choice between remain and a still to be discussed deal.     

 

LD are making the election a de facto referendum between remain and allowing another party to deal with it.    Labour are taking proper ownership over dealing with it.

 

It's a valid choice.

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I understand Labour supporters and sympathisers being unhappy with the Labour position.

 

But the leadership believe the Referendum result should be respected. Albeit they have been forced to support another referendum. 

 

I don't think people realise the risks in just revoking Brexit. 

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dobmisterdobster
10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

No.    They're offering a different policy to the LDs.     LD say they will unilaterally revoke.     Labour say there will be a further choice between remain and a still to be discussed deal.     

 

LD are making the election a de facto referendum between remain and allowing another party to deal with it.    Labour are taking proper ownership over dealing with it.

 

It's a valid choice.

I get the second referendum thing. But why not endorse remain now rather than later like we all know they are going to?

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dobmisterdobster
4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

I understand Labour supporters and sympathisers being unhappy with the Labour position.

 

But the leadership believe the Referendum result should be respected. Albeit they have been forced to support another referendum. 

 

I don't think people realise the risks in just revoking Brexit. 

I'm a Brexiteer and I want Labour to announce that they are a remain party like everyone knows they are and stop showing contempt for voters.

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1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

I understand Labour supporters and sympathisers being unhappy with the Labour position.

 

But the leadership believe the Referendum result should be respected. Albeit they have been forced to support another referendum. 

 

I don't think people realise the risks in just revoking Brexit. 

 

Correct.   Some Labour MPs and supporters seem to believe they are obliged to steal the LDs clothes re remain.    To go toe-to-toe on the same policy.    No.     There's a more credible path by adding legitimacy to the next steps.     Remain via a further democratic event or accept that Brexit must be honoured but with a less damaging exit.

 

The LDs can never deliver their promise and they know it full well.    It's purpose is to make a small, short term gain in order to hold a balance of power in the next parliament.     Totally dishonest and a waste of ****ing space.

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3 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

I get the second referendum thing. But why not endorse remain now rather than later like we all know they are going to?

 

Because they're offering a pure and deliverable choice.    A Brexit choice over and above and in addition to a radical economic and social programme.     The LDs have no other policies to hawk.     They're offering a wholly notional idea which can never be realised.

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14 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

I don't think people realise the risks in just revoking Brexit. 


This is a really good point.

There are a lot of angry people around - if it was straight out revoked I think there would be violence by some of the more agro BNP/UKIP types. Purely a personal opinion. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Because they're offering a pure and deliverable choice.    A Brexit choice over and above and in addition to a radical economic and social programme.     The LDs have no other policies to hawk.     They're offering a wholly notional idea which can never be realised.

 

They are also saying "we didn't create Brexit" it's not Labour's responsibility. 

 

But they would find an easier Deal to agree with EU. Unlike the Tories who had the job of delivering Brexit. 

Edited by Mikey1874
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9 minutes ago, Mysterion said:


This is a really good point.

There are a lot of angry people around - if it was straight out revoked I think there would be violence by some of the more agro BNP/UKIP types. Purely a personal opinion. 

 

And so?

Jail the morons.

 

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12 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

They are also saying "we didn't create Brexit" it's not Labour's responsibility. 

 

But they would find an easier Deal to agree with EU. Unlike the Tories who had the job of delivering Brexit. 

 

I don't see any conclussion to this current situation that will close the book on our EU relationship.     If we remain then the question of Brexit will reappear.    If we crash out then the future relationship will still have to be thrashed out.     If we end up getting a more political Brexit (BRINO) then a campsign for a more distant relationship will appear.     

 

Labour may well end up delivering a stop-gap political Brexit and the battle begins to stay in or exit the single market and customs union.    Fine.    Let's have that continuing conversation but at least there will be a chance to have a future Brexit on a much more stable footing.     Guaranteeing never to leave on no deal terms,  etc.

 

I like Labour's direction.    A holding pattern of BRINO and allow the saga to move on without drowning ourselves like cats in a sack.

Edited by Victorian
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12 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

I don't see any conclussion to this current situation that will close the book on our EU relationship.     If we remain then the question of Brexit will reappear.    If we crash out then the future relationship will still have to be thrashed out.     If we end up getting a more political Brexit (BRINO) then a campsign for a more distant relationship will appear.     

 

Labour may well end up delivering a stop-gap political Brexit and the battle begins to stay in or exit the single market and customs union.    Fine.    Let's have that continuing conversation but at least there will be a chance to have a future Brexit on a much more stable footing.     Guaranteeing never to leave on no deal terms,  etc.

 

I like Labour's direction.    A holding pattern of BRINO and allow the saga to move on without drowning ourselves like cats in a sack.

 

I've mentioned 'respecting' the Leavers who won the Referendum.

 

But we also need to respect the Remainers who for example want the freedom to travel and work in Europe. And the way to do that is to Leave but have a close ongoing relationship through the single market/ Customs Union or similar. 

 

Obvious really. 

Edited by Mikey1874
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18 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I've mentioned 'respecting' the Leavers who won the Referendum.

 

But we also need to respect the Remainers who for example want the freedom to travel and work in Europe. And the way to do that is to Leave but have a close ongoing relationship through the single market/ Customs Union or similar. 

 

Obvious really. 

 

Seems reasonable.    Everyone knows this saga will go on and on.     Why not just take the first damage minimising steps and move the process on?    Only the death cult no deal right now lot seem to believe there's any absolute necessity to leave in a tearing hurry.

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4 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

A Labour government would never leave the EU.

They are stringing voters along. It's jarring.

 

They would hold a referendum to leave on pre-determined terms.    Yes they would leave if the referendum resulted that way.     

 

It's no longer a question of leave or remain.     The only credible path is how the next 10 years or more are managed.    Remain is temporary.    A softer Brexit is temporary.     The LD jokers have even said that leave is temporary - they would campaign for BRENTRY.      

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Francis Albert
4 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Comfortable people are happy with the status quo. 

 

Not sure about all Labour's policies but someone needs to do some redress for those struggling in this country. 

Unfortunately for the Corbynists there are more comfortable people than there are struggling people. And the Labour party has to appeal to some of the comfortable people.

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

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