Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Don Dan]

13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Who says "we don't want you"?

 

Leavers. Yes they want a deal but what deal. Nobody knows. 

[dobmisterdobster]

11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Yeah

 

Number 1 Tory reptile being Jo Swinson

 

The 'stop Brexit' grand coalition hasn't really got going because likes of Jo Swinson don't seem to want to deal with the Labour front bench. See also Caroline Lucas' moderate white woman's Cabinet. 

 

Anyway see what happens. 

I wouldn't have got going with her either.

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

Leavers. Yes they want a deal but what deal. Nobody knows. 

That wasn't the question. Or rather the answer to a different question. I must have missed the Leavers demands that the Germans go,  and take Bentley and Rolls Royce motors with them. As one of numerous examples.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

23 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

They're also a nationalised train Company, Trenitalia. Our's isn't. Sad. 

Agreed

[Boris]

7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

That wasn't the question. Or rather the answer to a different question. I must have missed the Leavers demands that the Germans go,  and take Bentley and Rolls Royce motors with them. As one of numerous examples.

 

If you pull the rug out from under the single market and customs unions, what benefit is there for them to want to stay?

 

Throw in so dubiously jingoistic rhetoric from the likes of BJ, Raab, Francoise etc and you have a, what was it May called it again?   A hostile environment.

[Don Dan]

12 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

That wasn't the question. Or rather the answer to a different question. I must have missed the Leavers demands that the Germans go,  and take Bentley and Rolls Royce motors with them. As one of numerous examples.

 

That was the crux of the referendum and not only the Germans. But leave us all the good bits though!

[Mikey1874]

13 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

That was the crux of the referendum and not only the Germans. But leave us all the good bits though!

 

The people voting to leave it seems wanted a change based on a lot of unhappiness with incomes, jobs etc and took the opportunity to vote against the EU because that was the choice given to them. 

 

If the vote had been about something else (nothing quite the same scale though) like forcing councils to give homes to locals or higher wages to local people it wouldn't have had the same impact but would have been based on the same motivations.

 

The challenge of supporting people with less advantage remains the same in or out of the EU. 

[Francis Albert]

31 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

If you pull the rug out from under the single market and customs unions, what benefit is there for them to want to stay?

 

Throw in so dubiously jingoistic rhetoric from the likes of BJ, Raab, Francoise etc and you have a, what was it May called it again?   A hostile environment.

That is certainly a real issue - to what extent is investment in the UK incentivised by EU membership?. The answer won't be clear until the future trading relationship between the UK and EU is known. Unfortunately there has been no substantive discussion on that yet.

 

And fortunately business decisions are not generally based on what politicians say to try to get elected.

 

But I don't buy for a moment Danny Boy's claim that the "crux of the referendum" was a drive to get the Germans and other EU nationals out of the UK.

 

(Just as the crux of Indyrefs past and future are not about driving out the English, despite the impression given by some Nationalist posters on here at times)

Edited August 16, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Don Dan]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

That wasn't the question. Or rather the answer to a different question. I must have missed the Leavers demands that the Germans go,  and take Bentley and Rolls Royce motors with them. As one of numerous examples.

 

“But I don't buy for a moment Danny Boy's claim that the "crux of the referendum" was a drive to get the Germans and other EU nationals out of the UK.”

 

“By large majorities, voters who saw multiculturalism, feminism, the Green movement, globalisation and immigration as forces for good voted to remain in the EU; those who saw them as a force for ill voted by even larger majorities to leave.”

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-brexit-and-why-a-refresher/

 

That’s the the sad truth of the matter. Add in reports, particularly in England of people shouting to passing EU citizens....... go home! 

 

As as I said in my first post on this matter we told the EU to bolt. We still want what you give us and still want what we give you to remain the same.

Now no one can agree what they want as no one really knows what they actually want. There is no consensus in Parliament or in the country which will bring about a deal. 

As the Rolling Stone once sang, you can’t always what want. 

The only way out of this mess is another referendum which includes Remain. 

I am of the firm view Remain would win.

 

sorry lots of statements in the post above but that’s because my surname is not Lawson 😂

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[The Mighty Thor]

I read earlier a an article on the Torygraph saying that the Germans are quite prepared to let the UK walk away with no deal and that there will be no further negotiation, just like they've said for the last 12 months. 

The tone of the article is remarkable in so much as it expresses almost shock that Germany/Europe might actually just tell us to feck off with no more than a cheery wave. 

[Cade]

[Mikey1874]

We don't know exactly what will happen. Claim and counter claim today. Some things will be clarified.

 

One suggestion here 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-eu-brexit-freedom-of-movement-ends-november-boris-johnson-priti-patel-home-office-a9064376.html

[Seymour M Hersh]

On 16/08/2019 at 14:03, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

They're also a nationalised train Company, Trenitalia. Our's isn't. Sad. 

 

I take it you are too young to remember how utterly rubbish the Nationalised Railways were?

[CJGJ]

On 16/08/2019 at 08:43, SE16 3LN said:

No it won't. Remainers will simply put their fingers in the ears and chant over and over EU good, UK bad, EU good UK bad in true Orwellian style. It beggars belief how people can justify the asset stripping of Greece, the arms sales to Lithuania and the demographic destruction of Bulgaria, yet argue that leavers are deluded racists...but they do.

Many of those who voted to leave may well be deluded racists...we don't know

 

However what we do know is the leaders of the leave campaign were and are some of the worst decision makers in our history

 

I say it again following Boris, Rees Mogg etc really tells you all about those who want to leave and their dodgy beliefs backed by billionaires who only seek to benefit themselves and not the country...oh and many of whom live abroad funny that.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

9 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I take it you are too young to remember how utterly rubbish the Nationalised Railways were?

Yet they're profitable in other countries? Didn't the Scottish govt recently run a profitable rail service? 

[Unknown user]

10 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I take it you are too young to remember how utterly rubbish the Nationalised Railways were?

 

Times have moved on, the Dutch model works very well. 

Instead of truly nationalised, run by a government department, it's run by a private company which they own 100%.

 

This means they have to react to market forces, they have to avoid losses and be competitive. 

 

There's no reason it couldn't work here. 

[dobmisterdobster]

32 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Yet they're profitable in other countries? Didn't the Scottish govt recently run a profitable rail service? 

Railways are not profitable in any European country. Especially in France and Germany where they require tens of billions in annual subsidy.

 

The Scottish Govt awards a contract to run Scotrail. They don't run it themselves

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Railways are not profitable in any European country. Especially in France and Germany where they require tens of billions in annual subsidy.

 

The Scottish Govt awards a contract to run Scotrail. They don't run it themselves

 

Where you getting that from mate?

 

I know for a fact that NS in Holland are profitable, in fact some of that profit comes from their contracts in the UK through Abellio.

 

But anyway, so what if they weren't profitable? It's a public service, run for the greater good, not everything has to be done in the name of profit. 

[SE16 3LN]

10 hours ago, CJGJ said:

Many of those who voted to leave may well be deluded racists...we don't know

 

However what we do know is the leaders of the leave campaign were and are some of the worst decision makers in our history

 

I say it again following Boris, Rees Mogg etc really tells you all about those who want to leave and their dodgy beliefs backed by billionaires who only seek to benefit themselves and not the country...oh and many of whom live abroad funny that.

Elite public school boys are always wankers, we know that. Now try and defend the calamitous and dictatorial nature of the failing EU project. You won't because you can't.

[dobmisterdobster]

47 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Where you getting that from mate?

 

I know for a fact that NS in Holland are profitable, in fact some of that profit comes from their contracts in the UK through Abellio.

 

But anyway, so what if they weren't profitable? It's a public service, run for the greater good, not everything has to be done in the name of profit. 

SNCF loses billions annually, is plagued by powerful unions, there are strikes all the time, most of the non-TGV services are dirty and decrepit.

 

I agree that railways shouldn't be prioritise being profitable but I also don't understand the obsession with public ownership. Its this Jeremy Corbyn idea that public sector is always superior which is rarely the case.

[Unknown user]

42 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

SNCF loses billions annually, is plagued by powerful unions, there are strikes all the time, most of the non-TGV services are dirty and decrepit.

 

I agree that railways shouldn't be prioritise being profitable but I also don't understand the obsession with public ownership. Its this Jeremy Corbyn idea that public sector is always superior which is rarely the case.

SNCF posted profits for the first half of 2019, NS make profit every year. 

 

I wouldn't say there's an obsession with public ownership, but for key public services like the trains, it makes sense for the key aim to be quality public service over profit. 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

Elite public school boys are always wankers, we know that. Now try and defend the calamitous and dictatorial nature of the failing EU project. You won't because you can't.

 

If you could provide examples of "calamitous and dictatorial" actions taken by the EU?

[dobmisterdobster]

22 minutes ago, Smithee said:

SNCF posted profits for the first half of 2019, NS make profit every year. 

 

I wouldn't say there's an obsession with public ownership, but for key public services like the trains, it makes sense for the key aim to be quality public service over profit. 

After receiving 10 billion Euros from the French government.

[Justin Z]

27 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I wouldn't say there's an obsession with public ownership, but for key public services like the trains, it makes sense for the key aim to be quality public service over profit. 

 

If anything, the obsession since Thatcher and Reagan has been with the canard that the government must necessarily fail at everything ever, and private enterprise is always superior in anything it touches.

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Times have moved on, the Dutch model works very well. 

Instead of truly nationalised, run by a government department, it's run by a private company which they own 100%.

 

This means they have to react to market forces, they have to avoid losses and be competitive. 

 

There's no reason it couldn't work here. 

 

I'll give you one. The RMT.

[Boris]

41 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I'll give you one. The RMT.

 

Oh no!  Not the trade union!

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

After receiving 10 billion Euros from the French government.

20 million net profit, look it up. 

But that's not the point, you said no one in Europe makes profit - they do, but anyway so what if they didn't?

 

45 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I'll give you one. The RMT.

 

Why would it be any different if the rail companies were owned by our government rather than the Dutch government?

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

If anything, the obsession since Thatcher and Reagan has been with the canard that the government must necessarily fail at everything ever, and private enterprise is always superior in anything it touches.

 

We're also convinced that spending government money on things the population need is a bad thing. 

What IS the public purse for then?

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Oh no!  Not the trade union!

 

 

It's always the union's fault. 

[Boris]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

We're also convinced that spending government money on things the population need is a bad thing. 

What IS the public purse for then?

 

I hope we never go to war.  Imagine having to send a nationalised industry out there to defend us!

[DETTY29]

Ministers have been  briefing all morning that the leaked dossier is significantly out of date.

 

Apparently it was last updated during Johnson's PM tenure.

Edited August 19, 2019 by DETTY29

[SE16 3LN]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

 

If you could provide examples of "calamitous and dictatorial" actions taken by the EU?

It was in the original contribution.

[Boris]

8 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

It was in the original contribution.

 

Which one??

[Unknown user]

26 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

It was in the original contribution.

 

It'll be easy for you to give examples that back you up then

[Cade]

Boris "confident the EU will back down"

 

Back down from WHAT?

There are no negotiations ongoing.

There is no argument with the EU ongoing.

The argument is within the UK Parliament who refuse to ratify the agreement because they think the NI border backstop can be ignored when it cannot!

 

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

7 minutes ago, Cade said:

Boris "confident the EU will back down"

 

Back down from WHAT?

There are no negotiations ongoing.

There is no argument with the EU ongoing.

The argument is within the UK Parliament who refuse to ratify the agreement because they think the NI border backstop can be ignored when it cannot!

 

 

 

He’s a f*****g fruit loop.

[SE16 3LN]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

It'll be easy for you to give examples that back you up then

I won't get an answer but 3 to be going on with:

 

1. Greece - Reckless and dangerous lending combined with asset stripping of middle classes in order to get at least some return on German investments

2. Arms sales to eastern European members states by Germany during the Crimean crisis. These were sold on the "never never" to countries who couldn't afford to repay but it all made big profits for German Arms dealers

3. The plundering of cheap Labour from poorer members of the EU area e.g. Bulgaria. I assume I don't need to tell you why this is a problem.

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

I won't get an answer but 3 to be going on with:

 

1. Greece - Reckless and dangerous lending combined with asset stripping of middle classes in order to get at least some return on German investments

 

Not the eu? Eurozone, European bank not the eu?

 

4 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

2. Arms sales to eastern European members states by Germany during the Crimean crisis. These were sold on the "never never" to countries who couldn't afford to repay but it all made big profits for German Arms dealers

 

Not the eu, but a member state(s)? Akin to uk sales to Saudi Arabia?

 

4 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

3. The plundering of cheap Labour from poorer members of the EU area e.g. Bulgaria. I assume I don't need to tell you why this is a problem.

 

Unscrupulous indigenous bosses? In the uk minimum wage levels would need to be met, so how is that the eu’s fault?

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

I won't get an answer but 3 to be going on with:

 

1. Greece - Reckless and dangerous lending combined with asset stripping of middle classes in order to get at least some return on German investments

2. Arms sales to eastern European members states by Germany during the Crimean crisis. These were sold on the "never never" to countries who couldn't afford to repay but it all made big profits for German Arms dealers

3. The plundering of cheap Labour from poorer members of the EU area e.g. Bulgaria. I assume I don't need to tell you why this is a problem.

 

In what way are those calamitous and dictatorial actions taken by the eu?

 

As far as I can tell your examples are irrelevant to what you said

[Pans Jambo]

Sunday Times not holding back!

 

 

[Mikey1874]

10 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Yet they're profitable in other countries? Didn't the Scottish govt recently run a profitable rail service? 

 

N.Ireland railway is state owned 

[AlphonseCapone]

This is only related to Brexit in a small way but I don't know where else to get his off my chest, I ****ing hate Jo Swinson. 

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

This is only related to Brexit in a small way but I don't know where else to get his off my chest, I ****ing hate Jo Swinson. 

I'll second that. A hypocritical nasty little witch.

[Costanza]

23 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Sunday Times not holding back!

 

 

 

Fake news from those remainer extremists at the Sunday Times.

(Am I doing this right?)

Anyway,  just bumps in the road but with a bit of bulldog spirit we can get through it.

Or just blame the EU.

 

These kinds of potential impacts have been known for months, not least by ministers who warned against no deal for this very reason but are now signed up to implement this policy.

How anyone with a conscience could actually countenance this is beyond belief, well then again no; these are the Tories we're talking about. 

[Mikey1874]

11 minutes ago, Costanza said:

 

Fake news from those remainer extremists at the Sunday Times.

(Am I doing this right?)

Anyway,  just bumps in the road but with a bit of bulldog spirit we can get through it.

Or just blame the EU.

 

These kinds of potential impacts have been known for months, not least by ministers who warned against no deal for this very reason but are now signed up to implement this policy.

How anyone with a conscience could actually countenance this is beyond belief, well then again no; these are the Tories we're talking about. 

 

Watched a phone in on TV briefly earlier.

 

Brexit supporter said he as feeling fine about it "because the people who run things will deal with it all so there will not be any big problems" 

[CJGJ]

The majority of those who voted for Brexit were in my opinion simply voting to stop immigration or should I say the view of immigration from the far right

They are simply one issue voters and will sink the country to get their way on this one issue

 

It really is that simple and they should be called out

 

Voters were lied to and enough convinced by the lies to vote leave

 

The panic in the Brexiteers eyes when another vote is discussed says it all

 

To think they support people like Boris Rees Mogg etc really beggars belief but simply reinforces my view that all they are thinking of is immigration and they will support anyone who would try and deliver that

 

Sad Sad people

[Pans Jambo]

3 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

The majority of those who voted for Brexit were in my opinion simply voting to stop immigration or should I say the view of immigration from the far right

They are simply one issue voters and will sink the country to get their way on this one issue

 

It really is that simple and they should be called out

 

Voters were lied to and enough convinced by the lies to vote leave

 

The panic in the Brexiteers eyes when another vote is discussed says it all

 

To think they support people like Boris Rees Mogg etc really beggars belief but simply reinforces my view that all they are thinking of is immigration and they will support anyone who would try and deliver that

 

Sad Sad people

But but but ‘the laws, the laws’! 

The laws that the EU make us obey. 

For example.....

 

eh.....

 

eh....

 

Oh, actually.... no wait....

 

eh...

 

eh...

 

Straight Bananas!!!!

[AlimOzturk]

4 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

The majority of those who voted for Brexit were in my opinion simply voting to stop immigration or should I say the view of immigration from the far right

They are simply one issue voters and will sink the country to get their way on this one issue

 

It really is that simple and they should be called out

 

Voters were lied to and enough convinced by the lies to vote leave

 

The panic in the Brexiteers eyes when another vote is discussed says it all

 

To think they support people like Boris Rees Mogg etc really beggars belief but simply reinforces my view that all they are thinking of is immigration and they will support anyone who would try and deliver that

 

Sad Sad people

 

I dont like to call people with differing opinions names. It simply makes them retreat more into their opinions as a defence mechanism.  Rather, healthy debate and persuasion works better. Convincing someone to change their minds is a far more powerful tool tha k insults IMO

[RobboM]

The logic of "No Deal" though is not to end up permanently with "No Deal" but it is purely a negotiating postion.

Seriously?

We are going to negotiate a better deal under the circumstances envisaged in a No Deal scenario? That is the real madness here surely

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, RobboM said:

The logic of "No Deal" though is not to end up permanently with "No Deal" but it is purely a negotiating postion.

Seriously?

We are going to negotiate a better deal under the circumstances envisaged in a No Deal scenario? That is the real madness here surely

 

Better more smoothly gets their low tax Singapore like set up. Which they may want as implied by many. 

 

Versus close relationship with single market/ customs union.