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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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Seymour M Hersh
30 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Britain voted to leave the EU. The EU has respected that vote. Just UK government has proven incapable so far of delivering it. 

 

Well March 29th is not far off now. 

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The Mighty Thor
33 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Well March 29th is not far off now. 

And yet in sight of the finish line and the promised land of milk and honey and prosperity for all (except the dirty immigrants of course) the Prime minister looks to be coming back to parliament to beg for more time. 

 

It's almost like it's a shambles and no one is in control.

 

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8 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Imagine one side in a negotiation inserting a clause to ensure it gets the best deal. Who'd have thunk it.

 

 

The EU didn't insert the clause.  The clause was agreed by both Japan and the EU, and applies equally to both sides.  It simply means that neither Japan nor the EU can offer better tariffs, better quotas or more favourable treatment to any other third country without also offering the same to each other. 

 

It is common practice in trade agreements to make "most-favoured nation" provisions like this. 

 

Edited by Ulysses
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What the above means is that the UK has to make deals to cover 67 countries around the world just to catch up with where it is at the moment.  None of those agreements can offer the UK more favourable terms than the UK already has with those countries unless they also offer better terms to the EU 27.

 

Where will the UK negotiate all these much better trade deals the Leave promoters were talking about? 

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Seymour M Hersh
1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

And yet in sight of the finish line and the promised land of milk and honey and prosperity for all (except the dirty immigrants of course) the Prime minister looks to be coming back to parliament to beg for more time. 

 

It's almost like it's a shambles and no one is in control.

 

 

You should write children's fiction books. Oh wait........

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20 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

What the above means is that the UK has to make deals to cover 67 countries around the world just to catch up with where it is at the moment.  None of those agreements can offer the UK more favourable terms than the UK already has with those countries unless they also offer better terms to the EU 27.

 

Where will the UK negotiate all these much better trade deals the Leave promoters were talking about? 

 

They can't and won't. Back of a fag packet type promises that lot coukd make without any responsibility. Once it's done the house of cards they built will collapse. 

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The Mighty Thor
7 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

They can't and won't. Back of a fag packet type promises that lot coukd make without any responsibility. Once it's done the house of cards they built will collapse. 

Not according to some of the enlightened on here. 

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Word is, they will vote through May's deal if it's put to a second referendum against a no deal and possibly against remain too.

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2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Not according to some of the enlightened on here. 

fair get yourself in a tizzy about stuff way above your and probably all on the site's understanding.

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AlphonseCapone
On 09/02/2019 at 10:17, JamboX2 said:

I kind of think this Brexit thing has been so bad that change will need to happen with how the UK runs itself. Let's be honest in a few short years: Corbyn, May, Cable... dare I say Sturgeon... will be gone. None of them have painted themselves in glory. None have worked to any discernible national or communal interest - despite that being what people have wanted. The first three are rudderless and I think Sturgeon is increasingly under pressure from her own on a few fronts.

 

Unless we end up with a referendum on Remain v May's Deal then we will have s bit more of this road to go. But if the deal finally crosses the line then the debate must move onto the future deal and what next for Britain as a whole. And like it or not the SNP and their over arching goal is dependent on the outcome of stage 2 as much as stage 1 of Brexit. Scotland won't be independent until the whole process is done and dusted; I'll be bold there'll be no vote until after that. And that's not just "because of Westminster no letting us" but because the SNP leadership are clearly not ready for a referendum. They're not much further on from the place they were in back in 2014 and the Growth Commission is clearly a dead duck with the public. Never seen since it came out. Plus you can't deal with our border until the Irish one is resolved at the end of Stage 2 and if we go indy and join the EU those arrangements become ours. So tactically leaving the debate till after may resolve a hard question.

 

So the aim has to be reforming the UK. Remain is a dead Dodo in my eyes now. The sunlit uplands of Yes is farther off now than in 2011. 

 

The Scottish Affairs Committee (SNP led) is quietly looking into Post-Brexit reform of devolution and they're consulting ex-First and Deputy First Ministers, Scottish Secretaries and others involved in devolution since 1999 (Welsh Affairs are doing similar). The recent meetings have been interesting and you can find the deliberations with a quick Google. Jack McConnell and Jim Wallace have both suggested that the following be done;

 

- Joint Ministerial Committees are replaced by a Council of Ministers which meets on areas of joint control regularly to discuss and set strategic policies between the UK - I.e. on Trade, Agriculture, Welfare (in so far as is devolced), Transport, Home Affairs etc.

- Abolition of the Lords and replaced with a House of the Regions and Nations (I.e. an elected Senate with representation from across the UK - proportional representation) 

- Abolition of the Secretaries of State for Scotland, Wales and NI. The role of UK wide relations to go to a Deputy Prime Minister's Office or a Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs which would merge those three offices with the Cabinet Office. 

 

A lot of that makes sense as these institutions have utterly failed in the current situation. Whilst this is all in the foothills it seems more achievable than the alternatives; from small acorns...

 

A lot of sensible proposals here. Especially the joint ministerial Council making and debating joint decisions, if they ever want to actually make this a union of equals. 

Edited by AlphonseCapone
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10 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

They really don't like democracy in the eu do they.

 

 “I’m ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious. I am for secret, dark debates.” 

 

No wonder we voted leave. 

Said specifically in relation to monetary policy and nothing else.

 

The irony is that we live in probably the world's most financially corrupt country where secrecy is the norm. The reason you don't know about it is because it's secret. The corruption is endemic and pervasive and is seriously hurting our people and services. This might offer you some insight and even explain why some may wish to leave the EU. 

 

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22 hours ago, Ulysses said:

The Japanese believe they can get more favourable terms from the UK for a trade deal than they got from the EU.  And it seems that the Japan-EU trade deal includes a clause preventing Japan from offering a better deal on services to the UK than they have already given to the EU.

 

Guardian: Japan seeking big concessions from Britain in trade talks

 

Thats a shock, it’s almost as if being part of a massive economic union of 500m potential ‘customers’ is beneficial to being the dude sat in the bushes outside the party.

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4 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

A lot of sensible proposals here. Especially the joint ministerial Council making and debating joint decisions, if they ever want to actually make this a union of equals. 

The union of equals is about equality of citizenship. At least that's how I'd view it.

 

I think change is coming. Just not what people think it'll be though.

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24 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

The union of equals is about equality of citizenship. At least that's how I'd view it.

 

I think change is coming. Just not what people think it'll be though.

It is the countries that form the union and the countries that were supposed to be equal. As far as i'm aware there are no differences in citizenship. You are either a citizen or you are not. 

 There is no Federal solution and nowhere to go with Devolution. The UK is toxic and an international laughing stock. We can dissociate ourselves with the racism, violence and corruption of the UK and play a positive part in Europe. the only alternative i can see is eternal right wing government and continued decline. An easy choice and the process will start as soon as we leave the EU. 

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5 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

The union of equals is about equality of citizenship. At least that's how I'd view it.

 

I think change is coming. Just not what people think it'll be though.

Dae ye, aye!

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13 hours ago, coconut doug said:

It is the countries that form the union and the countries that were supposed to be equal. As far as i'm aware there are no differences in citizenship. You are either a citizen or you are not. 

 There is no Federal solution and nowhere to go with Devolution. The UK is toxic and an international laughing stock. We can dissociate ourselves with the racism, violence and corruption of the UK and play a positive part in Europe. the only alternative i can see is eternal right wing government and continued decline. An easy choice and the process will start as soon as we leave the EU. 

 

I don't think you can jump to independence until you know how Brexit is completely finalised. At that stage, if there's a hard border or a need for checks and controls on crossing the border I think that will be a hard sell. Regardless of the political situation. 

 

Added to that I'm yet to see where the strong and positive case beyond the light touch "no more Tory rule" and "we're a European nation" is. 

 

At present the Yes argument is utter jam tomorrow based on a perception people are ready to do a jump into the dark now that they weren't in 2014. I don't think that's there yet. Sorry to say but Yes and the SNP gave done nothing but postured since 2014; where's the beef? 

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10 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I don't think you can jump to independence until you know how Brexit is completely finalised. At that stage, if there's a hard border or a need for checks and controls on crossing the border I think that will be a hard sell. Regardless of the political situation. 

 

Added to that I'm yet to see where the strong and positive case beyond the light touch "no more Tory rule" and "we're a European nation" is. 

 

At present the Yes argument is utter jam tomorrow based on a perception people are ready to do a jump into the dark now that they weren't in 2014. I don't think that's there yet. Sorry to say but Yes and the SNP gave done nothing but postured since 2014; where's the beef? 

 

Brexit, and the lack of imagination being shown by both the Tories and Labour, is really showing up the political "elite" of the UK at its worst.  What confidence do they give that they will be able to make things better post Brexit?

 

Therefore I wonder if we may drift into independence? I mean, we may get to the point where becoming independnet, regardless of consequence, will be seen as the better option?

 

From the anecdotal evidence of some on this thread, it would appear that for many Brexit was very much taken with a "give a shit" mentality.  Arguably why then do it again over Scottish independence?  Perhaps because the perceived consequences are by then so marginal?

 

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23 minutes ago, Boris said:

It reminds me very much of the 70's and sadly it is the case across the UK, the states and of course the EU, all the so called advanced capitalist economic areas. The worrying thing is that Brexit, the global recession and the crisis in the Euro Zone are all about to make it worse.

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1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Brexit, and the lack of imagination being shown by both the Tories and Labour, is really showing up the political "elite" of the UK at its worst.  What confidence do they give that they will be able to make things better post Brexit?

 

I agree. But the lack of intellect is displayed on the front benches. I think that will soon change.

 

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Therefore I wonder if we may drift into independence? I mean, we may get to the point where becoming independnet, regardless of consequence, will be seen as the better option?

 

Agreed. But that's hardly any better than a no deal, no plan Brexit.. 

 

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

From the anecdotal evidence of some on this thread, it would appear that for many Brexit was very much taken with a "give a shit" mentality.  Arguably why then do it again over Scottish independence?  Perhaps because the perceived consequences are by then so marginal?

 

 

Again you're right. But none of that makes it a better choice inherently because it's there. Nor does it make the consequences any better to bear once they hit. 

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It seems that Arklow Shipping who were supposed to be backing Seaborne were never really involved and had no agreement in place with them.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/11/supposed-backer-of-no-ships-ferry-firm-says-they-had-no-deal?

 

Seaborne's management - headed up by someone who previously ran a shipping charter company on to the rocks with debts of €1.8m - are now hiding behind a confidentiality clause.

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8 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

I agree. But the lack of intellect is displayed on the front benches. I think that will soon change.

 

I suspect Labour could do so much better.  I like Corbyn, I think his heart is in the right place, but he is flatlining now.  Yvette Cooper, for example, has shown more mettle over the current debacle than many in Labour.  Starmer is growing on me too.  As long as they don't forget the social aspect of what made Corbyn "popular".

 

On the Tory side...no, sorry.  Stumped.

 

8 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

Agreed. But that's hardly any better than a no deal, no plan Brexit.. 

 

 

Again you're right. But none of that makes it a better choice inherently because it's there. Nor does it make the consequences any better to bear once they hit. 

 

I'm not saying it does, actually agreeing with your point, merely saying that frustration at brexit may play toward independence.

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40 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I suspect Labour could do so much better.  I like Corbyn, I think his heart is in the right place, but he is flatlining now.  Yvette Cooper, for example, has shown more mettle over the current debacle than many in Labour.  Starmer is growing on me too.  As long as they don't forget the social aspect of what made Corbyn "popular".

 

On the Tory side...no, sorry.  Stumped.

 

Cooper for me. About time they had a woman leader. Starmer is superb as are Stella Creasy and David Lammy. Their front bench could be bolstered somewhat with the talent they have. And again agree with the social aspect.

 

Tories; Grieve, Clarke, Soubry, Morgan, Rudd... all better than the current mob.

 

40 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I'm not saying it does, actually agreeing with your point, merely saying that frustration at brexit may play toward independence.

 

Totally agree. I just think sleep walking into it would be a horrendous miscalculation.

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1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

It seems that Arklow Shipping who were supposed to be backing Seaborne were never really involved and had no agreement in place with them.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/11/supposed-backer-of-no-ships-ferry-firm-says-they-had-no-deal?

 

Seaborne's management - headed up by someone who previously ran a shipping charter company on to the rocks with debts of €1.8m - are now hiding behind a confidentiality clause.

 

Might be hard to keep secret.

 

Just depends if anyone wants to go after this and the other 'secret' deals and spending. UK has a lot of scrutiny over spending - Public Accounts Committee etc. 

Edited by Mikey1874
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I thought May's response to Corbyn was interesting. Like she was saying she had effectively negotiated a customs union with EU just they aren't calling it that. 

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All this is due to the Unions.They backed the wrong brother.David would have walked the 2015 election.Rather than help the members the unions have destroyed jobs and the country.Brexit only happened because of the split in the Tory party..The Tories have record employment and record low unemployment and still not happy.

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1 hour ago, Jambo100 said:

All this is due to the Unions.They backed the wrong brother.David would have walked the 2015 election.Rather than help the members the unions have destroyed jobs and the country.Brexit only happened because of the split in the Tory party..The Tories have record employment and record low unemployment and still not happy.

 

It's all the fault ofthe Trades Unions?

 

Heard it all now...

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"No deal MUST remain on the table as a negotiating position".

 

There are no ****ing negotiations going on.

 

Funny how it's only the MPs who state that no deal is nothing to fear who parrot out this shite.

 

PM is accused of running down the clock to frighten MPs into finally accepting her deal.    She denies.    Her reasoning for the denial is that she cannot have run down the clock for the reason that she brought back her deal from the EU at some point in the past.    

 

Yes Maybot,   we know.    But that's not why everyone knows you're running down the clock.    As well as the reason.

 

Yet she gets away with this obvious and obtuse dishonesty.     

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6 minutes ago, Victorian said:

There are no ****ing negotiations going on.

 

There are negotiations going on be in no doubt about that. They won’t be public and there will be a deal (transition deal).

I've said this all along that there will be a last minute Transition deal followed but a future trading deal. It’s in the interests of both parties to get this done.

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1 minute ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

There are negotiations going on be in no doubt about that. They won’t be public and there will be a deal (transition deal).

I've said this all along that there will be a last minute Transition deal followed but a future trading deal. It’s in the interests of both parties to get this done.

 

There can only be a transition on the express understanding of a satisfactory backstop on Ireland.     There will be a future relationship but only after lengthy future relationship treaty negotiations.

 

There is no second stage transition to facilitate the primary transition.    Only a deal to facilitate a solely existing transition.     It must contain a backstop on Ireland.      No ifs or maybes.    

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The only other option is for the Tory red lines to be binned and a deal negotiated on the basis of the UK remaining in the or very similar bespoke customs union.     May has chosen to veto this in order that the Tory Party remains together snd for her to remain as the PM for a bit longer.     National interest,   we are told.

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16 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The only other option is for the Tory red lines to be binned and a deal negotiated on the basis of the UK remaining in the or very similar bespoke customs union.     May has chosen to veto this in order that the Tory Party remains together snd for her to remain as the PM for a bit longer.     National interest,   we are told.

 

Spot on. 

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22 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

There are negotiations going on be in no doubt about that. They won’t be public and there will be a deal (transition deal).

I've said this all along that there will be a last minute Transition deal followed but a future trading deal. It’s in the interests of both parties to get this done.

Varadkar dismissed that idea recently when May was in Dublin & Belfast - he said negotiations take place with EU/UK govt and no one else.  Merkel has gone out of her way to publicly dismiss  the Sun for their distorted version of a recent meeting between  UK & Germany. Yet Jeremy Hunt says today he's off to Europe for negotiations with his EU counterparts. It's all wishful thinking to convince the UK viewers that UK is bending over backwards to fix this mess and it's the nasty EU who refuse to negotiate.

The WA is done & dusted  - the best  May will get is some form of words (which you can be sure will have no legal standing  vis a vis the WA) which her own party will reject. 

 

Interesting article here on how some of her party see No-Deal as a realistic (maybe even desirable) outcome.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-no-deal-brexit-fallback-plan_uk_5c617348e4b0910c63f30fc8?utm_hp_ref=uk-theresa-may

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17 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

There can only be a transition on the express understanding of a satisfactory backstop on Ireland.     There will be a future relationship but only after lengthy future relationship treaty negotiations.

 

There is no second stage transition to facilitate the primary transition.    Only a deal to facilitate a solely existing transition.     It must contain a backstop on Ireland.      No ifs or maybes.    

 

I still say the Back Stop will be altered. How I don’t know but it has to be. Look at ot this way if we exit on the 29th and there is no transition deal in place then the Back Stop doesn’t matter. The EU and the UK negotiation team agreed a Back Stop but it’s the main stumbling block at the moment. However if May gets a majority for the existing deal and it gets voted through then the DUP will pull the plug and it will be a GE. If there is a GE according to the latest polls the Tories would regain a majority as Corbyn is unelectable as a PM. I realise it’s polls I’m referring to which could well be ballocks. 

 

For me I'm of to Tenerife for six weeks on Friday, return on the 27th March. I could have and wanted to stay longer but I didn’t want to chance it. I’m sure there will be a deal but didn’t want to take a chance and get stranded. Not that is mind???

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13 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Varadkar dismissed that idea recently when May was in Dublin & Belfast - he said negotiations take place with EU/UK govt and no one else.  Merkel has gone out of her way to publicly dismiss  the Sun for their distorted version of a recent meeting between  UK & Germany. Yet Jeremy Hunt says today he's off to Europe for negotiations with his EU counterparts. It's all wishful thinking to convince the UK viewers that UK is bending over backwards to fix this mess and it's the nasty EU who refuse to negotiate.

The WA is done & dusted  - the best  May will get is some form of words (which you can be sure will have no legal standing  vis a vis the WA) which her own party will reject. 

 

Interesting article here on how some of her party see No-Deal as a realistic (maybe even desirable) outcome.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-no-deal-brexit-fallback-plan_uk_5c617348e4b0910c63f30fc8?utm_hp_ref=uk-theresa-may

 

It amazes me that people like yourself think there is no negotiating taking place. You have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, neither do I for that matter but does anyone think that nothing is happening. Don’t forget this is the EU who have history of last second deals. 

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15 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

I still say the Back Stop will be altered. How I don’t know but it has to be. Look at ot this way if we exit on the 29th and there is no transition deal in place then the Back Stop doesn’t matter. The EU and the UK negotiation team agreed a Back Stop but it’s the main stumbling block at the moment. However if May gets a majority for the existing deal and it gets voted through then the DUP will pull the plug and it will be a GE. If there is a GE according to the latest polls the Tories would regain a majority as Corbyn is unelectable as a PM. I realise it’s polls I’m referring to which could well be ballocks. 

 

For me I'm of to Tenerife for six weeks on Friday, return on the 27th March. I could have and wanted to stay longer but I didn’t want to chance it. I’m sure there will be a deal but didn’t want to take a chance and get stranded. Not that is mind???

 

That scenario is an irony for the Tory 'loyal rump'.     The ones who cannot conceive of any other course than to meekly fall in line behind the government.    That they would continue to vote for May's deal,    which if successful,   could lead the DUP to tear up the confidence & supply arrangement,   which could lead to an election,   which puts individual sitting MPs in peril of being ousted at the ballot,   or even deselected by their local parties.

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16 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

That scenario is an irony for the Tory 'loyal rump'.     The ones who cannot conceive of any other course than to meekly fall in line behind the government.    That they would continue to vote for May's deal,    which if successful,   could lead the DUP to tear up the confidence & supply arrangement,   which could lead to an election,   which puts individual sitting MPs in peril of being ousted at the ballot,   or even deselected by their local parties.

 

Throw into that lot a Labour split which is be muted in the press at present AND the rerun of Nigel and his new one ticket party. 

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1 minute ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

Throw into that lot a Labour split which is be muted in the press at present AND the rerun of Nigel and his new one ticket party. 

 

The leading Labour grumblers could not be more transparent if they tried.    Corbyn is being bizarrely accused of being a facilitator of a Tory Brexit.     Yet his strategy and stated preferred outcomes couldn't be further from anything the Tories have proposed,   government or other factions.

 

The Labour grumblers are rank opportunists.      Total wankers.

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40 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

It amazes me that people like yourself think there is no negotiating taking place. You have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, neither do I for that matter but does anyone think that nothing is happening. Don’t forget this is the EU who have history of last second deals. 

 

Public enough

 

But meetings might not be negotiations

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

The leading Labour grumblers could not be more transparent if they tried.    Corbyn is being bizarrely accused of being a facilitator of a Tory Brexit.     Yet his strategy and stated preferred outcomes couldn't be further from anything the Tories have proposed,   government or other factions.

 

The Labour grumblers are rank opportunists.      Total wankers.

 

Muted?

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48 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

It amazes me that people like yourself think there is no negotiating taking place. You have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, neither do I for that matter but does anyone think that nothing is happening. Don’t forget this is the EU who have history of last second deals. 

 

The EU's position has been stated time and time again by several different officials and EU leaders. 

 

While I agree with you on your last point, the EU is actually a very flexible institution when it needs to be. However, the position it is at the moment can't just be fixed with a little flexibility from the EU. There's a fundamental impasse in the negotiations and the EU hold the cards. 

 

May's now running down the clock for the sake of the Conservative party and remaining in number 10. Quite despicable when you think about it. 

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14 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

The EU's position has been stated time and time again by several different officials and EU leaders. 

 

While I agree with you on your last point, the EU is actually a very flexible institution when it needs to be. However, the position it is at the moment can't just be fixed with a little flexibility from the EU. There's a fundamental impasse in the negotiations and the EU hold the cards. 

 

May's now running down the clock for the sake of the Conservative party and remaining in number 10. Quite despicable when you think about it. 

 

On the surface the EU are holding the line. Which is more than can be said to the UK and the disconnected approach we’ve got.

Your last bit is political and may or may not be correct. It’s an assumption at best with no proof. 

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1 minute ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

On the surface the EU are holding the line. Which is more than can be said to the UK and the disconnected approach we’ve got.

Your last bit is political and may or may not be correct. It’s an assumption at best with no proof. 

 

It may well be, but so is your assumption that there's negotiating going on behind scenes. 

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15 minutes ago, Toggie88 said:

 

It may well be, but so is your assumption that there's negotiating going on behind scenes. 

 

I acknowledged that. Let’s be realistic though, does anyone really think no one is speaking off camera! 

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It would actually suit both sides to publicise any progress.    As an encouragement to parliament that an acceptable deal is still possible.    Some degree of hope for business throughout Europe.     

 

If May was making ANY sort of impression on the EU... we would be being told all about her success.

 

Nah.  No way Pedro.    All intimations of so-called negotiations are entirely fantasy.

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

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