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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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Geoff the Mince
7 hours ago, Sooperstar said:

???????????

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It's been obvious for a while that they are all ex EDL \ Britain First losers .

 

 

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The Mighty Thor

Sunday's full of stories of a 'very british coup' if Maybot loses her vote on Tuesday.

 

I hope not as everything 'very British' generally suggests a ealing comedy type farce of biblical proportions followed by a less than desirable outcome for everyone. 

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43 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I agree with the suggestions this is a parody.

 

I can’t imagine any group stands for homeless, people starving, child abuse etc. Might stand against it but for it?!?!?

 

However, where was allegedly being handed out?

 

The yellow vest marches yesterday were anti austerity and organised by the ‘far left’. I’ll be honest when I seen them marching and interviewed I thought just a bunch of angry people with not a lot between the ears. Bouyed by their own sense of superiority and singular belief they’re  right (actually left)  and everyone else being wrong and ergo evil. 

 

The yellow vests outside Westminster are a bunch brexit nutter brought together by the ‘far right’ I’ll be honest when I saw them on tv i thought what a bunch of angry obnoxious people with not a lot between the ears. Buoyed by their own sense of superiority and singular belief they’re right and everyone else is wrong and ergo evil.

 

I generally find anyone indulging in yellow vesting in the uk, in the main, to be a worrying character for a variety of reasons. 

 

Im just trying to figure out which yellow vest group this actually pertains to, I assumed the ‘far right bunch’. However, that list is pretty similar to the what the ‘left wing’ march was about according to the crowds!!!

 

Jusr seems the policy is throw some things into a pot and complain about them in angry manner, irrespective of being far left or far right. They all seem to have one thing in common a lack of intelligence or thought and a lot of anger.

It's not parody. Clearly they meant that they were against the majority of the things on the list. They're just too stupid to realise that that is not what their little leaflet says.

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10 hours ago, Cade said:

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-Isaac Asimov, 1980

 

Substitute "United States" for "United Kingdom" and it explains our current shit-show situation.

 

Having seen it in both places--spot on.

 

9 hours ago, jake said:

?

 

Seems like all there's left to do at this point, tbf.

--

 

I'm actually pretty excited, because tomorrow brings the first session of "Brexit: Withdrawal from the European Union" in the Human Rights Law master's programme at Edinburgh Uni. We'll be starting with a look at the political landscape as to how we got here, then branching out into the withdrawal agreement such as it is so far, the implications for trade relations, individual rights, cooperation (such as between police forces and judiciaries in the UK with Euro nations), the consequences of a no deal, and the impact of all of this on Scotland specifically. It looks like a fascinating course so that's basically the only reason I'm keeping it in my timetable even though class is Mondays from 4-6pm :rolleyes:

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Francis Albert

John Major weighing in again. Odd how even the worst of Prime Ministers (and other senior politicians) can don the role of wise and all-knowing senior statesmen. And be taken as such.

Even 27 years after the ERM fiasco is too soon to take Major seriously on the UK's relationship with Europe.

 

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Seymour M Hersh
11 hours ago, Cade said:

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-Isaac Asimov, 1980

 

Substitute "United States" for "United Kingdom" and it explains our current shit-show situation.

 

Left wing liberal spouts left wing liberal view shocker! :rofl:

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2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Having seen it in both places--spot on.

 

 

Seems like all there's left to do at this point, tbf.

--

 

I'm actually pretty excited, because tomorrow brings the first session of "Brexit: Withdrawal from the European Union" in the Human Rights Law master's programme at Edinburgh Uni. We'll be starting with a look at the political landscape as to how we got here, then branching out into the withdrawal agreement such as it is so far, the implications for trade relations, individual rights, cooperation (such as between police forces and judiciaries in the UK with Euro nations), the consequences of a no deal, and the impact of all of this on Scotland specifically. It looks like a fascinating course so that's basically the only reason I'm keeping it in my timetable even though class is Mondays from 4-6pm :rolleyes:

Let me know how you get on.

I'm not sure how the format goes for such things.

But would be interested to know if there was any positives.

 

In particular anything to counter you and Cades belief that ignorance is the characteristic of brexit voters .

?

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1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

John Major weighing in again. Odd how even the worst of Prime Ministers (and other senior politicians) can don the role of wise and all-knowing senior statesmen. And be taken as such.

Even 27 years after the ERM fiasco is too soon to take Major seriously on the UK's relationship with Europe.

 

Other senior politicians who in all likelihood draw a tidy wee wage from the gravy train.

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1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Left wing liberal spouts left wing liberal view shocker! :rofl:

 

Your reaction does really sum it up, as well--the general right wing adherence to ignorance, ideology, fundamentalism, magical thinking, who needs experts? To call "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" a "liberal view"--you really have captured the root of the issue.

 

It's unfortunate that two sides of the political spectrum are divided so strongly by whether they value evidence over dogma, knowledge over superstition, and human understanding and potential over insularity and jingoism. Each of the former in these sets ought to be a basis from which all other ideas flow. Then we could count on each side to consistently provide novel, creative ideas and solutions for the challenges we face.

That's certainly not to say the left doesn't have its share of anti-intellectualism--they lead the way in anti-vax, anti-GMO, anti-nuclear power hysteria, for example. But the overall divide is plain as day.

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2 minutes ago, jake said:

In particular anything to counter you and Cades belief that ignorance is the characteristic of brexit voters .

?

 

Thanks, it should be a lot of fun, and hopefully really useful from an employability perspective too.

 

"Belief", heh. See that there again, the way you've used that word would indicate--intentional or not--that you consider all "beliefs" to be equal. They're not, and coincidentally to the author of Cade's quote, I have posted Asimov's piece The Relativity of Wrong in the Shed before so I won't again (but it's easy to Google). I would though recommend you have a look at what's on offer here: Google Scholar - "post truth" politics

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Thanks, it should be a lot of fun, and hopefully really useful from an employability perspective too.

 

"Belief", heh. See that there again, the way you've used that word would indicate--intentional or not--that you consider all "beliefs" to be equal. They're not, and coincidentally to the author of Cade's quote, I have posted Asimov's piece The Relativity of Wrong in the Shed before so I won't again (but it's easy to Google). I would though recommend you have a look at what's on offer here: Google Scholar - "post truth" politics

 

 

Thanks I will.

I certainly don't believe that all beliefs are equal.

 

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1 minute ago, jake said:

Thanks I will.

I certainly don't believe that all beliefs are equal.

 

 

Then very striking correlations like this one, one of many:

 

image.png.e59be984cde54a838201081062e12922.png

 

Ought to tell you something about which belief in this instance is better founded. Chart taken from here.

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22 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Then very striking correlations like this one, one of many:

 

image.png.e59be984cde54a838201081062e12922.png

 

Ought to tell you something about which belief in this instance is better founded. Chart taken from here.

So unless you graduate you shouldn't get the vote?

 

 

 

Edited by jake
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Francis Albert
1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Your reaction does really sum it up, as well--the general right wing adherence to ignorance, ideology, fundamentalism, magical thinking, who needs experts? To call "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" a "liberal view"--you really have captured the root of the issue.

 

It's unfortunate that two sides of the political spectrum are divided so strongly by whether they value evidence over dogma, knowledge over superstition, and human understanding and potential over insularity and jingoism. Each of the former in these sets ought to be a basis from which all other ideas flow. Then we could count on each side to consistently provide novel, creative ideas and solutions for the challenges we face.

That's certainly not to say the left doesn't have its share of anti-intellectualism--they lead the way in anti-vax, anti-GMO, anti-nuclear power hysteria, for example. But the overall divide is plain as day.

As a left winger (I have always voted Labour, except briefly for the SWP as a student when Labour, and Gordon Brown's University Labour Club in particular, were too right wing for me). But your absurd generalisation of right wing views  and right wingers (and the increasing use of "right winger" as  a synonym for fascist or Nazi) display quite breathtaking ignorance.

Edited by Francis Albert
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41 minutes ago, jake said:

No .

Hence the question mark.

 

Ehhh, see thing is, the question mark doesn't absolve you of there really being no way to come to that post if you've considered or thought about the actual argument being put forth. It is so far out of line with what was being said, that it's hard to take it seriously as a good faith question, ya dig?

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Francis Albert
2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Then very striking correlations like this one, one of many:

 

image.png.e59be984cde54a838201081062e12922.png

 

Ought to tell you something about which belief in this instance is better founded. Chart taken from here.

Mmmm. Seems to suggest well under 30% to 40% of voters were graduates. 85% of MPs voted to have a simple "Remain/Leave" vote on EU membership. I think at least 90% or 95% of MPs are graduates, maybe more. Their belief that the Referendum was a good idea seems to have been somewhat mistaken. Having a degree and common sense do not in my experience correlate very well.

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Francis Albert
1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Ehhh, see thing is, the question mark doesn't absolve you of there really being no way to come to that post if you've considered or thought about the actual argument being put forth. It is so far out of line with what was being said, that it's hard to take it seriously as a good faith question, ya dig?

So, accepting your contention that graduates' beliefs are "better founded" than non-graduates, how would you address the problem that non-graduates don't share your beliefs?

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2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Ehhh, see thing is, the question mark doesn't absolve you of there really being no way to come to that post if you've considered or thought about the actual argument being put forth. It is so far out of line with what was being said, that it's hard to take it seriously as a good faith question, ya dig?

No I don't dig.

 

Given your recent posts .

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2 minutes ago, jake said:

No I don't dig.

 

Given your recent posts .

 

Well, then if you can point to somewhere in my recent posts, or any posts, where I advocated education requirements or tests in order to be permitted to vote, I'd appreciate it.

 

Especially coming from the States as I do, with its racist history of literacy tests.

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7 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Having seen it in both places--spot on.

 

 

Seems like all there's left to do at this point, tbf.

--

 

I'm actually pretty excited, because tomorrow brings the first session of "Brexit: Withdrawal from the European Union" in the Human Rights Law master's programme at Edinburgh Uni. We'll be starting with a look at the political landscape as to how we got here, then branching out into the withdrawal agreement such as it is so far, the implications for trade relations, individual rights, cooperation (such as between police forces and judiciaries in the UK with Euro nations), the consequences of a no deal, and the impact of all of this on Scotland specifically. It looks like a fascinating course so that's basically the only reason I'm keeping it in my timetable even though class is Mondays from 4-6pm :rolleyes:

 

Sounds like a good module to study and pretty relevant. We’re currently working through something similar at our work looking at the legal implications of possibly leaving EASA and how the CAA safeguards are going to affect our projects on some of our European bases.

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Francis Albert
8 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Having seen it in both places--spot on.

 

 

Seems like all there's left to do at this point, tbf.

--

 

I'm actually pretty excited, because tomorrow brings the first session of "Brexit: Withdrawal from the European Union" in the Human Rights Law master's programme at Edinburgh Uni. We'll be starting with a look at the political landscape as to how we got here, then branching out into the withdrawal agreement such as it is so far, the implications for trade relations, individual rights, cooperation (such as between police forces and judiciaries in the UK with Euro nations), the consequences of a no deal, and the impact of all of this on Scotland specifically. It looks like a fascinating course so that's basically the only reason I'm keeping it in my timetable even though class is Mondays from 4-6pm :rolleyes:

Could be interesting. Hope for your sake there are some conservative/right wing and europhile/ eurosceptic views expressed in the class and it is not just the repetition of consensus left/liberal/europhile views. Otherwise it may have limited educational value.

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2 hours ago, Statts1976uk said:

Sounds like a good module to study and pretty relevant. We’re currently working through something similar at our work looking at the legal implications of possibly leaving EASA and how the CAA safeguards are going to affect our projects on some of our European bases.

 

It'll definitely be interesting, and most likely extremely scary. I really do hope you're right about the relevance, but I'm going to be uber-pissed off if this destroys the economy and there are no jobs for me after all I've invested into trying to stay in Scotland!

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Governor Tarkin
30 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

I'm going to be uber-pissed off if this destroys the economy and there are no jobs for me after all I've invested into trying to stay in Scotland!

 

It's always got to be about you eh.

 

Can't you think of the children?

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33 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

It'll definitely be interesting, and most likely extremely scary. I really do hope you're right about the relevance, but I'm going to be uber-pissed off if this destroys the economy and there are no jobs for me after all I've invested into trying to stay in Scotland!

Extremely scary.......?

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15 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It's always got to be about you eh.

 

Can't you think of the children?

 

:lol: They've gotten enough of my dosh already, Gov.

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8 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Your reaction does really sum it up, as well--the general right wing adherence to ignorance, ideology, fundamentalism, magical thinking, who needs experts? To call "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" a "liberal view"--you really have captured the root of the issue.

 

It's unfortunate that two sides of the political spectrum are divided so strongly by whether they value evidence over dogma, knowledge over superstition, and human understanding and potential over insularity and jingoism. Each of the former in these sets ought to be a basis from which all other ideas flow. Then we could count on each side to consistently provide novel, creative ideas and solutions for the challenges we face.

That's certainly not to say the left doesn't have its share of anti-intellectualism--they lead the way in anti-vax, anti-GMO, anti-nuclear power hysteria, for example. But the overall divide is plain as day.

 

Justin Z thinks voting to remain in a business driven, capitalist state is ‘left wing’. 

 

Is that American left wing or British left wing!? 

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2 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

 

Justin Z thinks voting to remain in a business driven, capitalist state is ‘left wing’. 

 

Is that American left wing or British left wing!? 

 

Justin Z thinks there's a time and place to consider leaving something like the European project, and it's not when you'll hand the restructuring of your nation and its laws in the aftermath to the ****ing Tories.

 

It is possible to be a Euroskeptic and yet still have some sense of political timing, something Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have a clue about, for one example.

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Romanov Stole My Pension
9 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Then very striking correlations like this one, one of many:

 

image.png.e59be984cde54a838201081062e12922.png

 

Ought to tell you something about which belief in this instance is better founded. Chart taken from here.

Pretty interesting. Although could you argue that having degree-level education is a proxy for having a better salary, and that the comfortable just voted for the status quo? Playing devil's advocate rather than defending Brexit btw.

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6 hours ago, Romanov Stole My Pension said:

Pretty interesting. Although could you argue that having degree-level education is a proxy for having a better salary, and that the comfortable just voted for the status quo? Playing devil's advocate rather than defending Brexit btw.

 

Great post and excellent example of why you don't base opinions on single sets of data, and even when there are multiple sets of data, you take care before drawing conclusions. The whole "correlation is not causation" thing.

 

Isolating out education from salary has probably been done, although I couldn't find a definitive answer in a brief Google search. But salary negatively correlated with likelihood to vote leave, just like education did--it was just not nearly as tidy of a plot.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn

May will lose tomorrow.

 

corbyn opposing this purely because he thinks he’ll get a general election out of it. Think he’ll pay for that strategy tbh.

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I P Knightley
22 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

John Major weighing in again. Odd how even the worst of Prime Ministers (and other senior politicians) can don the role of wise and all-knowing senior statesmen. And be taken as such.

Even 27 years after the ERM fiasco is too soon to take Major seriously on the UK's relationship with Europe.

 

I'm nowhere near being a fan of Major or his time as PM but I'd far rather hear the views of someone with extensive experience of dealing with Europe (mistakes and all) than most of the lightweights and deadbeats who we're forced to listen to in and around the current parliament.

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Maybot lying through her teeth again today.

She claims that even though the Welsh Devolution referendum was only won by 0.3% (6,000-ish votes), that it was fully respected and got through Parliament without a hitch.

This, she says, shows that Brexit must be unopposed.

 

She forgot that she herself voted against Welsh Devolution, along with over a hundred other Tory MPs.

And, that in the 2005 Tory general election manifesto, was the promise to hold another referendum on Welsh Devolution including an option of scrapping it.

 

:gok:

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Seymour M Hersh
4 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

May will lose tomorrow.

 

corbyn opposing this purely because he thinks he’ll get a general election out of it. Think he’ll pay for that strategy tbh.

 

For the sake of the Country I hope you are correct. 

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

For the sake of the Country I hope you are correct. 

 

He's shown himself to be devoid of leadership quality and if you look at this situation really critically, he's shown himself to be interested above all in his own success and that of his mates. He's a fraud.

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Seymour M Hersh
Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

He's shown himself to be devoid of leadership quality and if you look at this situation really critically, he's shown himself to be interested above all in his own success and that of his mates. He's a fraud.

 

I agree with all of that plus the disingenuous stance he's taking on Brexit having been anti EU all his political days. There are some dangerous people behind him in the shadows as well.  

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I agree with all of that plus the disingenuous stance he's taking on Brexit having been anti EU all his political days. There are some dangerous people behind him in the shadows as well.  

 

He's only opposing the Brexit deal because he thinks he can get elected by doing it. I very much doubt he's got a plan for a better deal or, if he has, I doubt that he could deliver it. That's what makes him so unpalatable - he's going down this line knowing fine well that he couldn't sort out this situation himself.

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Seymour M Hersh
1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

He's only opposing the Brexit deal because he thinks he can get elected by doing it. I very much doubt he's got a plan for a better deal or, if he has, I doubt that he could deliver it. That's what makes him so unpalatable - he's going down this line knowing fine well that he couldn't sort out this situation himself.

 

Absolutely. When the country needs unity he is leading the charge to divide. Obviously there are a fair few others in that cesspool only looking out for themselves as well but most of them have always been one side or another and stuck with it. 

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2 hours ago, I P Knightley said:

I'm nowhere near being a fan of Major or his time as PM but I'd far rather hear the views of someone with extensive experience of dealing with Europe (mistakes and all) than most of the lightweights and deadbeats who we're forced to listen to in and around the current parliament.

 

The man who properly started the N.Ireland peace process also. And also very well aware of the challenges of Europe on which he delivered. Hardly the worst around. See now. 

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
6 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Absolutely. When the country needs unity he is leading the charge to divide. Obviously there are a fair few others in that cesspool only looking out for themselves as well but most of them have always been one side or another and stuck with it. 

 

Trouble is, both sides of the house are a joke.

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
2 hours ago, Cade said:

Maybot lying through her teeth again today.

She claims that even though the Welsh Devolution referendum was only won by 0.3% (6,000-ish votes), that it was fully respected and got through Parliament without a hitch.

This, she says, shows that Brexit must be unopposed.

 

She forgot that she herself voted against Welsh Devolution, along with over a hundred other Tory MPs.

And, that in the 2005 Tory general election manifesto, was the promise to hold another referendum on Welsh Devolution including an option of scrapping it.

 

:gok:

The vicar's daughter is anti-democracy and a liar? Who would have thought that. :rofl:

Edited by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
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1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Absolutely. When the country needs unity he is leading the charge to divide. Obviously there are a fair few others in that cesspool only looking out for themselves as well but most of them have always been one side or another and stuck with it. 

Corbyn is doing what he is hell bent on.

Smash the country into a wall at high speed, to rid it of what he does not want-

financial services, wealthy people and Bourgeoisie and multi-nationals, then take control of the wreckage, and create a new third world state where the government can control everything.

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2 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Trouble is, both sides of the house are a joke.

 

Both sides of the house are full of dangerous people who care nothing for what the electorate want or indeed voted upon, all they care about is their own self interests and their respective gravy trains, this applies to both Remainers & Leavers in equal measures, they just might have their noses in different troughs that's all.

 

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Did May forget about the 1979 Scottish referendum that yes won but Britain reneged on. Or was that a deliberate mistake. Didn't meet the 40% threshold, I hear you say, well neither did the euref.

 

Lying Tory filth.

Edited by ri Alban
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The Mighty Thor
5 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Absolutely. When the country needs unity he is leading the charge to divide. Obviously there are a fair few others in that cesspool only looking out for themselves as well but most of them have always been one side or another and stuck with it. 

There is no unity. 

There will be no unity either. The Tory party is split beyond repair and to a degree the country is too.

Whichever way this goes the fall out will roll on and on for years. 

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1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Did May forget about the 1979 Scottish referendum that yes won but Britain reneged on. Or was that a deliberate mistake. Didn't meet the 40% threshold, I hear you say, well neither did the euref.

 

Lying Tory filth.

 

Time to move into the 21st Century, maybe lower your blood pressure a bit.

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Seymour M Hersh
11 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

There is no unity. 

There will be no unity either. The Tory party is split beyond repair and to a degree the country is too.

Whichever way this goes the fall out will roll on and on for years. 

 

Not necessarily if we leave with no deal there are huge opportunities for the country. May's deal ties us into the EU for as long as they decide so has to be rejected imo. Labour is just as split as the Conservatives btw which is beginning to show with some of their MP's going against the politburo and voting for May's deal. Since Leave won it's been handled appallingly from Cameron running for the hills the morning after to a remainer leading the leave negotiations. 

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1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Not necessarily if we leave with no deal there are huge opportunities for the country. 

 

Unicorns and rainbows for everybody.

 

WTO tariffs are harsh as feck and will cripple this nation.

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

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