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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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5 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

People of all parties fail miserably to separate the "working class" from the "lumpen proletariat"

 

Sadly very true, arguably one of the biggest political problems we face generally.

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6 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Its time xenophobic posts like this were exposed for what they are, bigoted drivel.

 

While a number may have voted to leave the EU on the basis of their prejudice, many did so because they see the development of the EU super state as part of the development of Global capitalism which serves to do nothing but encourage increasing wealth gaps between individuals, nations and continents. It is exploitative and racist by its very nature. 

 

 

 

This is a more than legitimate point of view - and is partly why I was a Leaver a year or so before the referendum. What changed my mind? Leave's lies - plus the awareness that everything you describe above is even worse in the UK, and we have a whole system which entrenches it. Not only is that system incredibly difficult to change - but the loudest Leavers want to make it worse. Much worse.

 

To put it another way: voting for something espoused by Jacob Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson in order to help the poor and trash multinational capitalism is, well, close to the definition of insanity, don't you think?

 

5 hours ago, jambo89 said:

I voted leave and and voted for independence.

 

I really admire this. It's 100% consistent. Those who voted for Scottish independence (which as Scotland wanted to share sterling and therefore have its financial policy directed by the Bank of England, wasn't actually being offered), only to then vote to stay in the EU (which is likely to expect an independent Scotland to join the euro) perplex me, to put it mildly.

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Francis Albert
18 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

To be fair, I'd have put it out of my mind too if I were in your shoes, given how justifiably ridiculed you were:

 

 

It was on a different thread about Brexit though. My bad.

The source of your hilarity was my assertion that Switzerland had a hard border with the EU. That set you ROFLing away.

See your post at the bottom of the previous page on this thread where you state that Switzerland (and Norway) have a hard border with the EU.

Fair enough you are free to make a 180 degree turn on your view of the EU in just over three years.

You should really be more consistent about facts though.

 

Edited by Francis Albert
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2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The source of your hilarity was my assertion that Switzerland had a hard border with the EU. That set you ROFLing away.

See your post at the bottom of the previous page on this thread where you state that Switzerland (and Norway) have a hard border with the EU.

Fair enough you are free to make a 180 degree turn on your view of the EU in just over three years.

You should really be more consistent about facts though.

 

 

Haha, brain fart on my part. I have these more as I get older. It's very worrying. :(

 

What I should've said above is that Switzerland is part of Schengen. 

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29 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

The Backstop will be gone in its present form to allow this deal to pass. 

 

Maybe.   But we have been incessantly informed that the deal,  inc backstop,  is the only possible deal and cannot be revisited.    Either that was just another lie or it's a lie this time to portray the backstop as something that can be contolled by parliament.

 

You can't believe a single word she says so it's as well to believe everything is a lie until shown otherwise.

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What an absolute mess. The "Scots" Tory MP's that are agreeing to this are total lap dogs. Cowards. Self serving cowards. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Maybe.   But we have been incessantly informed that the deal,  inc backstop,  is the only possible deal and cannot be revisited.    Either that was just another lie or it's a lie this time to portray the backstop as something that can be contolled by parliament.

 

You can't believe a single word she says so it's as well to believe everything is a lie until shown otherwise.

 

You are right but as you are aware this deal will not pass and mainly because of the lock that the back stop has embedded in it, in saying that according to the recent debate it would go to a tribunal who would be the final arbiter. That however is still not a guarantee we would ever be freed from it. Something has to give and I feel there will be an intervention of some sort that amends it and gives an end date. Only a fool would lock themselves in with no guaranteed exit.

Edited by Dannie Boy
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3 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

What an absolute mess. The "Scots" Tory MP's that are agreeing to this are total lap dogs. Cowards. Self serving cowards. 

 

 

 

All of them represent seats were the referendum result was to remain.     So much for Theresa May's clarion call for MPs to listen to their constituents.

 

Oh forgot... that only applied to opponents to her plan.

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Just now, Victorian said:

 

All of them represent seats were the referendum result was to remain.     So much for Theresa May's clarion call for MPs to listen to their constituents.

 

Oh forgot... that only applied to opponents to her plan.

It's mental. They are mental. It's going to be awful for Scotland.

 

I'm someone that used to work in Europe alot. Glad I had that chance so easily and I really feel sorry for younger people as this will severely limit their futures if they like me, like travelling.

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5 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

You are right but as you are aware this deal will not pass and mail because of the lock that the back stop has, in saying that according to the recent debate it would go to a tribunal who would be the final arbiter. That however is still not a guarantee we would ever be freed from it. Something has to give and I feel there will be an intervention of some sort that amends it and gives an end date. Only a fool would lock themselves in with no guaranteed exit.

 

What it is is yet another sleight of hand to deceive MPs into the belief that they will possess a safeguard on the backstop.    Trying to get over the line and taking a blind gamble that the backstop will never need to be initiated.

 

All of these little concessions and/or assurances have a credible purpose.     There is a fair sized group of Tory MPs who will happily jump ship from the grandstanding of opposing the deal to backing it.     All they need is the flimsiest of excuses in order to justify it to themselves and anyone else who challenges them on it.     

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6 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

It's mental. They are mental. It's going to be awful for Scotland.

 

I'm someone that used to work in Europe alot. Glad I had that chance so easily and I really feel sorry for younger people as this will severely limit their futures if they like me, like travelling.

 

Let's not forget that these Scottish Tory MPs were elected on a bogus anti-independence ticket.     Voted for by utter fools,   so hysteric at the notion of independence that they were fooled into believing that voting Tory at a general election would have a practical effect on the SNP's roadmap to independence.

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The Mighty Thor
1 hour ago, Sarah O said:

What an absolute mess. The "Scots" Tory MP's that are agreeing to this are total lap dogs. Cowards. Self serving cowards. 

 

 

 Mundell resigned yet?

 

Or for that matter Mooth?

 

Thought not. Snouts firmly in trough. 

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I was listening to some of the debate. I couldn't really tell which party the MPs were from. They might let it slip but all started out you didn't know. 

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12 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Do you . . . do you actually sit there and think of the best response for missing the point entirely, sometimes, just to reach peak annoyance for people? Be honest.

 

Hardie formed labour based on his experience as a working class person from the age of 7. He also constantly educated himself throughout his life and honed his skills as a public speaker. Said James Mavor of him: "He never fell into the habits of his fellows, but identified himself rather with the intellectual and artistic proletariat than with any faction of the middle class." From a biography: "Throughout the 1870s he was involved in the process of self-education, going to night school, teaching himself shorthand and submitting short pieces for publication to the Glasgow press."

 

Note that educating himself didn't mean listening to toff arseholes like Nigel Farage spreading bullshit. It meant actually educating himself. Something you seem to have no concept of how to differentiate from propaganda suckling.

That you assume I have arrived at my views on brexit because of Nigel Farage and that I am unable to form my own opinion is exactly the same snobbish attitude that many on the remain side have.

 

You want to believe I'm racist thick or easily fooled.

And hold my views in contempt.

 

I am a brexit and independence voter.

I voted for both these on principle.

I vote for the green party on principle.

 

I missed no point.

Shaun like you wish to make out that only remain voters understand the vote.

And you just reiterated that in your snobbish put down about me actually educating myself.

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, alfajambo said:

I happened upon this article from 2015, titled -

“Just what is the point of the European Union?”

 

Written by a chap named Shaun Lawson, seemingly based in Uruguay and dated 16 September 2015.

Two paragraphs are quoted and a link to the article given.

 

“By the end of 2017, the British people, denied a voice within the EU for over four decades, will decide whether the UK should remain…or leave. An opening salvo.”

 

“Thatcher and the Eurosceptics were right all along. Not only are there no real advantages to Britain remaining, but the EU acts against economic prosperity, social cohesion, democracy and nation states; and step by step, is creating a continent both divided and increasingly fractious. If it had never been created, would anyone seriously now invent it? When the referendum comes, the British people should vote to leave.”

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/shaun-lawson/just-what-is-point-of-european-union

That's a belter.

 

?

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16 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Channel 4 debate instead Sunday 

 

 

Pretty indicative of C4 news and their coverage.

Newsnight on bbc2 is the same.

 

 

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JAKE: I voted for Brexit for my own, good reasons. Don't make out I'm some total thicko!

 

REMAINER: What were those reasons Jake?

 

JAKE: *Gives a bunch of nonsensical reasons*

 

REMAINER: These reasons make no sense. Can you explain?

 

JAKE: Don't talk down to me you snob!

 

JAKE: *Suggests education is elitist*

 

REMAINER: Jake, education for all is not elitist!

 

JAKE: STFU you arrogant, sneering liberal! We must leave with no deal now!

 

REMAINER: Jake, leaving with no deal is not a good idea.

 

JAKE: Project Fear again is it? Lying again. You don't live in the real world!

 

REMAINER: No Jake. It's Project Fact. For the following reasons...

 

JAKE: Hahaha unicorns cake wibble

 

REMAINER: Jake, can you at least engage with the points being made?

 

JAKE: I AM SO SICK OF THESE SNOBS

 

And round, and round, and round we go. 

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4 minutes ago, jake said:

That's a belter.

 

?

 

I've never tried to hide it. Genuinely surprised it took someone so long to find it.

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1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I've never tried to hide it. Genuinely surprised it took someone so long to find it.

How I wish you still held those truths and principles .

 

Ya wee traitor?

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6 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

JAKE: I voted for Brexit for my own, good reasons. Don't make out I'm some total thicko!

 

REMAINER: What were those reasons Jake?

 

JAKE: *Gives a bunch of nonsensical reasons*

 

REMAINER: These reasons make no sense. Can you explain?

 

JAKE: Don't talk down to me you snob!

 

JAKE: *Suggests education is elitist*

 

REMAINER: Jake, education for all is not elitist!

 

JAKE: STFU you arrogant, sneering liberal! We must leave with no deal now!

 

REMAINER: Jake, leaving with no deal is not a good idea.

 

JAKE: Project Fear again is it? Lying again. You don't live in the real world!

 

REMAINER: No Jake. It's Project Fact. For the following reasons...

 

JAKE: Hahaha unicorns cake wibble

 

REMAINER: Jake, can you at least engage with the points being made?

 

JAKE: I AM SO SICK OF THESE SNOBS

 

And round, and round, and round we go. 

 

Pretty accurate tbf.

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2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Let's not forget that these Scottish Tory MPs were elected on a bogus anti-independence ticket.     Voted for by utter fools,   so hysteric at the notion of independence that they were fooled into believing that voting Tory at a general election would have a practical effect on the SNP's roadmap to independence.

As long as we can sing about being up to oor knees in Fenian blood tho. :jj_facepalm:

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Francis Albert
5 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Haha, brain fart on my part. I have these more as I get older. It's very worrying. :(

 

What I should've said above is that Switzerland is part of Schengen. 

That doesn't really work in your post does it? But as I know failing to make sense is another symptom of getting older!

Our original exchange was about the Irish border for which Schengen is irrelevant. Neither Ireland nor the UK belong but our own little mini-Schengen has existed since the Free State and Republic were established and long before either of us joined the EU.. 

And will continue beyond Brexit in the increasingly unlikely event it happens.

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1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I've never tried to hide it. Genuinely surprised it took someone so long to find it.

To search within the hours past, your pockets overflow.

Here a lost narrative from Bamber Gascoigne’s top one hundred tunes saturates the Germanium and Silicon.

A place where, Monnk De-Wally De-Honk, Kendal Mint Cake and the other 98 luminary captains all vote Ben Franklin.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

 And will continue beyond Brexit in the increasingly unlikely event it happens.

 

I don’t see how Brexit can happen now.

We face a created inability to remove ourselves from the entity we never directly voted into life.

When the can falls, deeper integration is an inevitability. A mutually exclusive scenario to leave.

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Thunderstruck
4 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

All of them represent seats were the referendum result was to remain.     So much for Theresa May's clarion call for MPs to listen to their constituents.

 

Oh forgot... that only applied to opponents to her plan.

 

Nobody knows which seats voted which way unless a constituency and a council area shared exactly the same boundary. 

 

There are estimates and extrapolations (for example, the Hanratty estimate or the BBC analysis based on sampling of wards) but the vote simply wasn’t measured by Westminster constituency. 

 

If you assume an even distribution of Leave/Remain across a Council area, you might be able to say that Council result = Constituency result but I think we all know that many Council areas are quite diverse. 

 

If we look at this on a larger scale, we know that 1m Scots voted to Leave and, among them, an estimated 400k SNP voters. Are they being represented by their elected representatives or is this an example of where the democratic process, flawed as it is, is being upheld?

 

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48 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

To search within the hours past, your pockets overflow.

 

Here a lost narrative from Bamber Gascoigne’s top one hundred tunes saturates the Germanium and Silicon.

 

A place where, Monnk De-Wally De-Honk, Kendal Mint Cake and the other 98 luminary captains all vote Ben Franklin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would you believe I have a slab of Kendal Mint Cake in my drawer? :laugh: Ordered it online from an expat superstore.

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59 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

That doesn't really work in your post does it? But as I know failing to make sense is another symptom of getting older!

Our original exchange was about the Irish border for which Schengen is irrelevant. Neither Ireland nor the UK belong but our own little mini-Schengen has existed since the Free State and Republic were established and long before either of us joined the EU.. 

And will continue beyond Brexit in the increasingly unlikely event it happens.

 

It will indeed - but it also poses a problem. Ireland has freedom of movement but the UK is leaving freedom of movement. Ireland's in the customs union, therefore Northern Ireland must be too. And if Northern Ireland remains part of the single market, Britain not being part of it will cause obvious difficulties. 

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12 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Would you believe I have a slab of Kendal Mint Cake in my drawer? :laugh: Ordered it online from an expat superstore.

 

I voted to leave.

May’s deal is a shocker.  Of the two ‘Remain’ is the better option.

Today I have no idea who I would want to vote for in the next GE.

This is some mess we are in.

Adios amigo.

Edited by alfajambo
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23 hours ago, Ulysses said:

trouble_brewing_backstop_session_ipa.jpg

 

23 hours ago, Ulysses said:

trouble_brewing_backstop_session_ipa.jpg

Looking to the future, how many years do you see passing before Ireland is unified?

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4 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Nobody knows which seats voted which way unless a constituency and a council area shared exactly the same boundary. 

 

There are estimates and extrapolations (for example, the Hanratty estimate or the BBC analysis based on sampling of wards) but the vote simply wasn’t measured by Westminster constituency. 

 

If you assume an even distribution of Leave/Remain across a Council area, you might be able to say that Council result = Constituency result but I think we all know that many Council areas are quite diverse. 

 

If we look at this on a larger scale, we know that 1m Scots voted to Leave and, among them, an estimated 400k SNP voters. Are they being represented by their elected representatives or is this an example of where the democratic process, flawed as it is, is being upheld?

 

It's 400,000 yes voters, not SNP voters. And if we go by your logic, where's the 1.6 m yes voters full autonomous state.

 

 

 

One more point, excluding the EU and RoW citizens who were banned a say in the Euref, where did the 1.4 m no voters go? Do you think 1.2m yes voters make up the 1.6 m remain vote. Na, neither do I.

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8 hours ago, jake said:

That you assume I have arrived at my views on brexit because of Nigel Farage and that I am unable to form my own opinion is exactly the same snobbish attitude that many on the remain side have.

 

You want to believe I'm racist thick or easily fooled.

And hold my views in contempt.

 

I am a brexit and independence voter.

I voted for both these on principle.

I vote for the green party on principle.

 

I missed no point.

Shaun like you wish to make out that only remain voters understand the vote.

And you just reiterated that in your snobbish put down about me actually educating myself.

 

 

Awful lot of assumptions built into all those assumptions. Awfully defensive for being so squeaky clean too, especially considering I didn't insinuate the half of what you've convinced yourself I have. For what it's worth, you'd be on my block list, not getting multiple replies, if I thought anything close to that was actually true.

 

You speak of voting on principle--on blind principle--barely a day after you challenged people on their wisdom. The irony of that is apparently also lost on you. But you can't get away from the group you chose to vote with. Much like someone who voted for Donald Trump on principle, there's really no reason to defend the character of the company you've chosen to keep--just live with it and maybe consider next time there can be no wisdom in such a mindless choice.

 

Edited by Justin Z
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I am amazed that no-one has mounted a legal challenge to the removal of passports.

I, and my wife and kids will have our passports rescinded, and our EU citizenship removed without our consent, and in fact against our will.

This will also happen to millions of other EU citizens such as ourselves.

I am amazed this is legal.

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21 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I am amazed that no-one has mounted a legal challenge to the removal of passports.

I, and my wife and kids will have our passports rescinded, and our EU citizenship removed without our consent, and in fact against our will.

This will also happen to millions of other EU citizens such as ourselves.

I am amazed this is legal.

 

Even Jacob Rees-Mogg says guarantees should have been given to everyone straight after the Vote in 2016.

 

But the general point is the immigration system is very complex and set up to cause problems  for people. Sorry to see this is happening for you but many others affected and some are having problems now.

 

Also many people are planning to leave due to the confusion and no longer feeling welcome. People who have been here years even most of their lives. 

Edited by Mikey1874
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22 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Even Jacob Rees-Mogg says guarantees should have been given to everyone straight after the Vote in 2016.

 

But the general point is the immigration system is very complex and set up to cause problems  for people. Sorry to see this is happening for you but many others affected and some are having problems now.

 

Also many people are planning to leave due to the confusion and no longer feeling welcome. People who have been here years even most of their lives. 

I'm NOT talking about the immigrants.

I was born in Scotland, as were my kids.

 

My kids were BORN as EU citizens, and have EU passports.

I have an EU passport.

We will all lose out EU citizenship AND have our passports taken off us against our will.

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17 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I'm NOT talking about the immigrants.

I was born in Scotland, as were my kids.

 

My kids were BORN as EU citizens, and have EU passports.

I have an EU passport.

We will all lose out EU citizenship AND have our passports taken off us against our will.

 

We are in a democratic country and as a country we voted to leave the European Union. I am assuming you voted in the last general election and EU referendum. That's yours and everyones right over the age of 18. The vote never went your way nor mine. However that's the nature of democracy. Can't claim when you cast a vote or at least had the right to that your now being dragged out against will. 

 

And you won't have your passports taken off you. 

 

 

 

Edited by AlimOzturk
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25 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I'm NOT talking about the immigrants.

I was born in Scotland, as were my kids.

 

My kids were BORN as EU citizens, and have EU passports.

I have an EU passport.

We will all lose out EU citizenship AND have our passports taken off us against our will.

 

So you've just over dramatised what is a regular normal situation 

Edited by Mikey1874
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8 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

We are in a democratic country and as a country we voted to leave the European Union. I am assuming you voted in the last general election and EU referendum. That's yours and everyones right over the age of 18. The vote never went your way nor mine. However that's the nature of democracy. Can't claim when you cast a vote or at least had the right to that your now being dragged out against will. 

 

And you won't have your passports taken off you. 

 

 

 

I have never seen a vote before where, if you lose, you lose your citizenship. some rights, and your passport

I am being dragged out against my will.

Most other votes are only for 5 years

This is not, its far more fundamental

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3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

So you've just over dramatised what is a regular normal situation 

How is it normal?

 

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By the time the UK and EU are at the point of fully agreeing the future free trade treaty and other arrangements,    we could quite easily be around 5-6 years down the line from the referendum result.      

 

It's all very well having fanciful notions of respecting the democratic will of the people but it blankly ignores the very real possibility that the peoples' will of that point in the future will be different.

 

Is it really credible that the UK population (2016) dictates the will and prospects of the UK population (2021-2) ?

 

There is a credibility deficit there and a denial of democracy for many people.

Edited by Victorian
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She's still drooling on about having spoke to people around the country and the "overwhelming" message being that people just want to get on with Brexit.

 

Aye?

 

So you spoke to a tiny percentage of people,    quite possibly hand-picked.     Is it a credible representation of a wider public opinion?     How scientific is that?     Are you only counting the opinions of people who want your deal?     Are you only counting the opinions of leavers?     Is there any independent evidence to support you even having spoken to anyone who agrees with the plan?

 

Or is it just more lies and spin?

 

Try listening to and working with parliament on the basis of open minded good faith.     Then they might reciprocate.

Edited by Victorian
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3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

She's still drooling on about having spoke to people around the country and the "overwhelming" message being that people just want to get on with Brexit.

 

Aye?

 

So you spoke to a tiny percentage of people,    quite possibly hand-picked.     Is it a credible representation of a wider public opinion?     How scientific is that?     Are you only counting the opinions of people who want your deal?     Are you only counting the opinions of leavers?     Is there any independent evidence to support you even having spoken to anyone who agrees with the plan?

 

Or is it just more lies and spin?

 

Try listening to and working with parliament on the basis of open minded good faith.     Then they might start reciprocate.

Whilst May has a reputation for "getting on and pushing through"

I think many people have mistaken this for fortitude. persistence and determination.

 

In reality its inflexibility, arrogance and bloody-mindedness.

 

She is no Thatcher (this lady is not for turning)-

I cannot stand her, a preposterous creature and an imposter as a leader

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33 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

How is it normal?

 

 

Visa restrictions and waivers are common all over the world.

 

You don't know if you'll actually be affected.

 

And subject to the final deal you may be able to pay for continued personal EU citizenship. 

Edited by Mikey1874
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2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Whilst May has a reputation for "getting on and pushing through"

I think many people have mistaken this for fortitude. persistence and determination.

 

In reality its inflexibility, arrogance and bloody-mindedness.

 

She is no Thatcher (this lady is not for turning)-

I cannot stand her, a preposterous creature and an imposter as a leader

 

Spot on.    That is exactly right.     It's a shan Thatcher tribute act.

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

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