Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

Yet the SNP want to remain part of the EU where under their idea of Federal government they will have little say over the important matters. If they think being part of the UK parliament is a problem wait till they see what Brussels is like. If indeed they are ever allowed to join. 

 

We would be allowed to join as long as the UK government okayed our independence procedure.

 

We're all part of associations of people who are part of larger associations of people etc, etc. What matters is being part of associations that you respect, which have ideals  that you can go along with. I'm not a SNP supporter but I'd rather be part of the EU family with its peace/brotherhood of nations/free movement/consumer protection ideals (among others) than the UK with its rampant self-serving nationalism. I was happy at being all 3, Scottish, British and European (i.e. member of the EU), but that has now been denied me. So, although voting against independence at the last referendum, I'll be supporting independence at the next.

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

14 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

But Scotland voted as part of the UK having voted to remain in the Union. The SNP can't have it both ways. The SNP are only trying to frustrate Brexit and upset those 17.5 million of the UK electorate who voted for it including 38% of Scots. 

No they didn't. 

[sadj]

39 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Their constituents will be happy with that.

????

[sadj]

35 minutes ago, Cade said:

Scotland voted 62% remain.

SNP use that mandate to attempt to stop brexit and have never wavered.

Scottish Tories and Labour?

Not got a scooby what they've been doing.

Flip-flopping all over the place.

Our MP is Andrew Bowie and he has voted with the government on every single vote. These people more worried about their careers within the party than their constituents

[Class of 75]

16 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

What little say did the UK have in Europe that was so detrimental to this country?

Once the Lisbon Treaty kicked in the UK would have to toe the line on several issues. The Referendum had to be held so that the people could have their say. 

[NANOJAMBO]

18 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Yet the SNP want to remain part of the EU where under their idea of Federal government they will have little say over the important matters. If they think being part of the UK parliament is a problem wait till they see what Brussels is like. If indeed they are ever allowed to join. 

But they will have a say - and they would have had more influence if UK had elected to stay (with it's disproportionate influence in numbers) in the EU,  so it's irrelevant.  The rest of your post is just Nostradamus stuff. Being part of the UK isn't a "problem" - Scotland didn't vote to leave the EU, you know that. It's a fundamental issue now - how much does it want EU membership and what is it prepared to do about it.  

[Class of 75]

13 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

No they didn't. 

Who didn't? Those are the numbers 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

Once the Lisbon Treaty kicked in the UK would have to toe the line on several issues. The Referendum had to be held so that the people could have their say. 

Such as ?  Please don't say "Euro" or "European army". 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

Who didn't? Those are the numbers 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

 

[Class of 75]

1 minute ago, NANOJAMBO said:

But they will have a say - and they would have had more influence if UK had elected to stay (with it's disproportionate influence in numbers) in the EU,  so it's irrelevant.  The rest of your post is just Nostradamus stuff. Being part of the UK isn't a "problem" - Scotland didn't vote to leave the EU, you know that. It's a fundamental issue now - how much does it want EU membership and what is it prepared to do about it.  

If you read up on what the European project is about and what their umtimate aim is you will see it is all about a United States of Europe where government is centralised and the Nation State no longer exists. Not Nostrodamus stuff at all just political ideology. 

[Class of 75]

2 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

 

Yeah 17.4 million to Leave equates to 51%

[NANOJAMBO]

2 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

If you read up on what the European project is about and what their umtimate aim is you will see it is all about a United States of Europe where government is centralised and the Nation State no longer exists. Not Nostrodamus stuff at all just political ideology. 

Just clarify , what did UK have veto on (assume we are leaving). And what was Lisbon treaty going to bring in that so upsets you ? 

[Martin_T]

I'm a bit conflicted after watching the parliamentary debate earlier, because much as May's deal is awful, I feel that the country needs to draw a line under this and move on.

 

We are locked in a situation where neither side is going to back down and if anything there is increasing evidence of extremism on both sides, witness the emergence of the leave means leave and revoke Article 50 movements.

 

 

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

I'm a bit conflicted after watching the parliamentary debate earlier, because much as May's deal is awful, I feel that the country needs to draw a line under this and move on.

 

We are locked in a situation where neither side is going to back down and if anything there is increasing evidence of extremism on both sides, witness the emergence of the leave means leave and revoke Article 50 movements.

 

 

Extremist? No. Entrenched perhaps.

[Martin_T]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

Extremist? No. Entrenched perhaps.

 

Extreme as in opposite ends of the scale, further away from the middle ground.

[redjambo]

Just now, Martin_T said:

 

Extreme as in opposite ends of the scale, further away from the middle ground.

 

Given that the relevant supports in the binary question referendum were 52%-48%, could folk who support either of these viewpoints be termed extremists?

[The Real Maroonblood]

Westminster in turmoil.

[Mikey1874]

If the pro Brexit demonstrators stayed and refused to move it could help.   

[Cade]

The European Commission regrets the negative vote in the House of Commons today.

As per the European council (Article 50) decision on 22 March, the period provided for in article 50(3) is extended to 12 April.

It will be for the UK to indicate the way forward before that date, for consideration by the European council.

A “no-deal” scenario on 12 April is now a likely scenario.

The EU has been preparing for this since December 2017 and is now fully prepared for a “no-deal” scenario at midnight on 12 April.

The EU will remain united.

The benefits of the withdrawal agreement, including a transition period, will in no circumstances be replicated in a “no-deal” scenario.

Sectoral mini-deals are not an option.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Cade

[Class of 75]

24 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Just clarify , what did UK have veto on (assume we are leaving). And what was Lisbon treaty going to bring in that so upsets you ? 

The individual state at the moment can and does have a veto for instance all 27 members would have to agree on an extension to the UK re negotiating their leaving. The Lisbon Treaty was the first step on further centralisation, the move away from the old idea of a Common Market to one of a single government. Personally I am not a fan of having my political decisions made in a system of government where I have little or no say. I agree with the idea of being a trading partner but not with the idea of a United States of Europe. I am also not content with the taxation mechanisms of the EU where in time we will all be paying the same level of tax irrespective of where you live. So for instance if you live in an efficient state such as Germany you would pay the same as an inefficient one such as Greece. That would mean higher taxes to ensure the poorer states stay afloat and the European project endures. There is also the possibility that the EU would pursue future Turkish membership. This has the potential to lead to further regional instability within the middle East. 

[Mikey1874]

Independent Group (ChangeUK) people don't seem to want a general election.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Jambos1983 said:

Not sure they come out of this with much credit. They've been trying to get the result of the referendum overturned from the start

And. The result in Scotland was remain. We voted no on the back of EU membership guarantees. Euref2 or Indyref2. You chose.

[Class of 75]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

And. The result in Scotland was remain. We voted no on the back of EU membership guarantees. Euref2 or Indyref2. You chose.

And what happens if Scotland votes No again? Do you just keep going till you get the result that suits? What would happen if the result of either Referendum was reversed? Would you be happy with either the No campaign or the Brexit side trying to overturn it? 

[Cade]

Nigel Dodds (DUP leader in Westminster) tells me the UK should stay in the EU if that was only way to preserve NI’s place in UK.

‘I would stay in the European Union and remain rather than risk Northern Ireland’s position.

That’s how strongly I feel about the union.’

 

[redjambo]

8 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

The individual state at the moment can and does have a veto for instance all 27 members would have to agree on an extension to the UK re negotiating their leaving. The Lisbon Treaty was the first step on further centralisation, the move away from the old idea of a Common Market to one of a single government. Personally I am not a fan of having my political decisions made in a system of government where I have little or no say. I agree with the idea of being a trading partner but not with the idea of a United States of Europe. I am also not content with the taxation mechanisms of the EU where in time we will all be paying the same level of tax irrespective of where you live. So for instance if you live in an efficient state such as Germany you would pay the same as an inefficient one such as Greece. That would mean higher taxes to ensure the poorer states stay afloat and the European project endures. There is also the possibility that the EU would pursue future Turkish membership. This has the potential to lead to further regional instability within the middle East. 

 

You honestly believe that Turkey could join the EU in your lifetime? No way José. It would attract vetoes left, right and centre.  It was however nice scare propaganda put out during the referendum campaign.

[AlphonseCapone]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

You honestly believe that Turkey could join the EU in your lifetime? No way José. It would attract vetoes left, right and centre.  It was however nice scare propaganda put out during the referendum campaign.

 

Greece for a start. 

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

Nigel Dodds (DUP leader in Westminster) tells me the UK should stay in the EU if that was only way to preserve NI’s place in UK.

‘I would stay in the European Union and remain rather than risk Northern Ireland’s position.

That’s how strongly I feel about the union.’

 

 

Scenes indeed! That's definitely out of left field.

[redjambo]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Greece for a start. 

 

  Yup.

[Class of 75]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

You honestly believe that Turkey could join the EU in your lifetime? No way José. It would attract vetoes left, right and centre.  It was however nice scare propaganda put out during the referendum campaign.

That is what the EU want. If Turkey joins it allows the EU leverage in the middle east allowing them to upset Russia. 

[Class of 75]

2 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Greece for a start. 

I don't think they care much for Greece. I appreciate this sounds like I swallowed the scare mongering from the Leave side, but I can assure you as stated previous it was of major discussion when I studied it at Uni over 20 years ago. This was their intention then and still to this day. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Class of 75

[Class of 75]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Scenes indeed! That's definitely out of left field.

Indeed. I did not see that coming 

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, Class of 75 said:

That is what the EU want. If Turkey joins it allows the EU leverage in the middle east allowing them to upset Russia. 

That's absolute nonsense. Turkey will not get membership in a  million years with their track record on human rights , persecution and attacks on journalists - and that's before the latest dictator got into power. That suggestion is laughable.  PS You do know the latest trade negotiations collapsed because Erdogan wants to talk about "freedom of movement". 

[redjambo]

Just now, Class of 75 said:

That is what the EU want. If Turkey joins it allows the EU leverage in the middle east allowing them to upset Russia. 

 

Oh come on. Putting your rhetoric (and your crib sheet) aside, it's not going to happen and you know it.

[Cade]

Turkey began EU talks in 1985.

There are 35 chapters which need to be closed before they can join.

Only 16 of them have even been opened.

Only ONE of them has been closed. Even this is only their science and research infrastructure and policy.

 

So that's one out of thirty-five tests passed in thirty-four years.

 

They have zero chance of ever joining due to their batshit crazy legal system.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Cade

[132goals1958]

11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

And. The result in Scotland was remain. We voted no on the back of EU membership guarantees. Euref2 or Indyref2. You chose.

 

 

I voted remain on the UK referendum which for me was nothing to do with Mrs Murrell

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

I don't think they care much for Greece. 

 

Who's "they"? All EU members would get a veto on eventual Turkish accession. No way would Greece say "Yes". Top EU officials and member leaders have spoken out against Turkish accession. It's hasn't got a chance in hell.

[NANOJAMBO]

6 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

And what happens if Scotland votes No again? Do you just keep going till you get the result that suits? What would happen if the result of either Referendum was reversed? Would you be happy with either the No campaign or the Brexit side trying to overturn it? 

You're totally missing the point -  when the ref was held , Scotland was in the EU, it was told if it wanted to stay in the EU it should vote No, it was told we're "better together". You know this. And now it changes , fundamentally. You know this too. 

[Class of 75]

2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

That's absolute nonsense. Turkey will not get membership in a  million years with their track record on human rights , persecution and attacks on journalists - and that's before the latest dictator got into power. That suggestion is laughable.  PS You do know the latest trade negotiations collapsed because Erdogan wants to talk about "freedom of movement". 

Yep. I agree but there are those within the EU who would like to see Turkish m we membership. 

[Class of 75]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Who's "they"? All EU members would get a veto on eventual Turkish accession. No way would Greece say "Yes". Top EU officials and member leaders have spoken out against Turkish accession. It's hasn't got a chance in hell.

At the moment. It is an aspiration for the future. Only relaying what I was taught. 

[ri Alban]

9 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

And what happens if Scotland votes No again? Do you just keep going till you get the result that suits? What would happen if the result of either Referendum was reversed? Would you be happy with either the No campaign or the Brexit side trying to overturn it? 

Do u think we should just vote on independence once and then never again. I hope Scotland independence is voted on ,by the same rules as brexit. But hey, you'd say that's wrong, but where were the EUref protests.

[NANOJAMBO]

27 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

The individual state at the moment can and does have a veto for instance all 27 members would have to agree on an extension to the UK re negotiating their leaving. The Lisbon Treaty was the first step on further centralisation, the move away from the old idea of a Common Market to one of a single government. Personally I am not a fan of having my political decisions made in a system of government where I have little or no say. I agree with the idea of being a trading partner but not with the idea of a United States of Europe. I am also not content with the taxation mechanisms of the EU where in time we will all be paying the same level of tax irrespective of where you live. So for instance if you live in an efficient state such as Germany you would pay the same as an inefficient one such as Greece. That would mean higher taxes to ensure the poorer states stay afloat and the European project endures. There is also the possibility that the EU would pursue future Turkish membership. This has the potential to lead to further regional instability within the middle East. 

Spare me the lecture - I'm nearly 60 and lived through all this. I've lived & worked in EU, I like it & I want to keep it. You won't convert me. So, what is the Lisbon treaty going to bring that upsets you ? Euro - nope. Euro army - nope. So , what ? 

[Class of 75]

1 minute ago, NANOJAMBO said:

You're totally missing the point -  when the ref was held , Scotland was in the EU, it was told if it wanted to stay in the EU it should vote No, it was told we're "better together". You know this. And now it changes , fundamentally. You know this too. 

Yes that is true. However at that point what could not be foreseen was the EU Referendum or the result. Only my opinion but Scotland voted as part of the UK not as a separate nation. Incidentally what makes you think the EU would support a country espousing its Nationalism? It does not believe in it which is why Brexit is such a mess. To as accept Scotland aside from the financial issues would send the wrong message to other areas that wish to ceseed i.e. Catalonia. 

[Cade]

Some gammon twat, London, today

[ri Alban]

6 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

 

I voted remain on the UK referendum which for me was nothing to do with Mrs Murrell

Your post says otherwise.

[Mikey1874]

Another go

 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

30 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

The individual state at the moment can and does have a veto for instance all 27 members would have to agree on an extension to the UK re negotiating their leaving. The Lisbon Treaty was the first step on further centralisation, the move away from the old idea of a Common Market to one of a single government. Personally I am not a fan of having my political decisions made in a system of government where I have little or no say. I agree with the idea of being a trading partner but not with the idea of a United States of Europe. I am also not content with the taxation mechanisms of the EU where in time we will all be paying the same level of tax irrespective of where you live. So for instance if you live in an efficient state such as Germany you would pay the same as an inefficient one such as Greece. That would mean higher taxes to ensure the poorer states stay afloat and the European project endures. There is also the possibility that the EU would pursue future Turkish membership. This has the potential to lead to further regional instability within the middle East. 

That's a load of BS - around 85% of laws affecting you in Scotland are passed in the UK. 

[Class of 75]

2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Spare me the lecture - I'm nearly 60 and lived through all this. I've lived & worked in EU, I like it & I want to keep it. You won't convert me. So, what is the Lisbon treaty going to bring that upsets you ? Euro - nope. Euro army - nope. So , what ? 

Not trying to, I was replying to a poster who asked my opinion. I just disagree with it. 

[LeftBack]

2 hours ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

 

As I mentioned earlier I voted to remain but if we subsequently want to quantify after voting why vote in the first place.Where does it all end.

Goodness knows! 

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

Another go

 

 

This is turning into a dictatorship.

[Class of 75]

2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

That's a load of BS - around 85% of laws affecting you in Scotland are passed in the UK. 

Yes, I know that. I am a Unionist, I have no issue with the UK government being in London. Don't get me wrong I am not blind nor support what the Tories did in Scotland especially during the 80's, I just prefer to be British. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Class of 75