Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Cade]

Jersey fishermen saying they've been forgotten in all of this, and that the new fishing and export rules have hurt their business far more than it's hurt the French.

 

 

[ri Alban]

Other businesses must be scratching their heads at the amount of time given to the Fisher people. You're minnows compared to other sectors on this plaice. So stop whaling. 

[Unknown user]

44 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Other businesses must be scratching their heads at the amount of time given to the Fisher people. You're minnows compared to other sectors on this plaice. So stop whaling. 

Carping on, neither the time nor plaice, very shellfish of them, etc

[Don Dan]

For better or worse the Swiss have pulled back from the EU. 
 

https://apple.news/AGVq3oychSHesPN_FImcy1A

 

Switzerland will pay the price in lost exports, higher costs and diminished attractiveness as a business centre after deciding this week to pull the plug on a draft treaty binding it more snugly to the European Union, its biggest trading partner.

Popular concerns about yielding too much sovereignty sank the 2018 pact that would have had non-member Switzerland routinely adopt rules governing the EU’s giant single market, including the free movement of people.

While the eurosceptic far-right celebrated the demise of a what it saw as a “colonial” treaty and the left cheered the defence of measures to support high Swiss wages, businesses and economists warned there would be significant economic fallout.

No cliff-edge effect looms, but there will be a gradual impact as over 100 bilateral accords ensuring seamless cross-border trade become obsolete and Brussels sticks to its vow not to grant Switzerland any new market access without a treaty.

The medical technology sector is already feeling the pinch after a deal on mutual agreement of industrial standards (MRA) lapsed this week, meaning Swiss medtech manufacturers will be treated like those in any other non-EU country.

Industry body Swiss Medtech said new administrative requirements will cost the sector around 114 million Swiss francs ($127 million) initially and then 75 million annually.

While that is a fraction of the sector’s 5.2 billion francs a year in exports to the EU, the bigger danger lies in non-European companies and start-ups shunning Switzerland as the site for their European headquarters.

“Anyone who simply states that the administrative costs are bearable is completely ignoring how tough the international competition is,” Swiss MedTech President Beat Vonlanthen said. 

[pablo]

10 hours ago, Boy Daniel said:

For better or worse the Swiss have pulled back from the EU. 
 

https://apple.news/AGVq3oychSHesPN_FImcy1A

 

Switzerland will pay the price in lost exports, higher costs and diminished attractiveness as a business centre after deciding this week to pull the plug on a draft treaty binding it more snugly to the European Union, its biggest trading partner.

Popular concerns about yielding too much sovereignty sank the 2018 pact that would have had non-member Switzerland routinely adopt rules governing the EU’s giant single market, including the free movement of people.

While the eurosceptic far-right celebrated the demise of a what it saw as a “colonial” treaty and the left cheered the defence of measures to support high Swiss wages, businesses and economists warned there would be significant economic fallout.

No cliff-edge effect looms, but there will be a gradual impact as over 100 bilateral accords ensuring seamless cross-border trade become obsolete and Brussels sticks to its vow not to grant Switzerland any new market access without a treaty.

The medical technology sector is already feeling the pinch after a deal on mutual agreement of industrial standards (MRA) lapsed this week, meaning Swiss medtech manufacturers will be treated like those in any other non-EU country.

Industry body Swiss Medtech said new administrative requirements will cost the sector around 114 million Swiss francs ($127 million) initially and then 75 million annually.

While that is a fraction of the sector’s 5.2 billion francs a year in exports to the EU, the bigger danger lies in non-European companies and start-ups shunning Switzerland as the site for their European headquarters.

“Anyone who simply states that the administrative costs are bearable is completely ignoring how tough the international competition is,” Swiss MedTech President Beat Vonlanthen said. 

 

Interesting that Switzerland have pulled the plug on closer integration with the EU, despite the potential economic impact of doing so. The similarities with Brexit are obvious, and the EU should really be having a think about their position on a number of things if they want to avoid more of this in the future. 

[Cade]

Swiss just didn't want the EU poking around in their banking records.

That's pretty much why they walked away.

 

[Unknown user]

4 hours ago, pablo said:

 

Interesting that Switzerland have pulled the plug on closer integration with the EU, despite the potential economic impact of doing so. The similarities with Brexit are obvious, and the EU should really be having a think about their position on a number of things if they want to avoid more of this in the future. 

 

I'm not so sure they are

[pablo]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

I'm not so sure they are

 

Obviously it's not an identical situation, but there are definitely similarities. Freedom of movement playing a part again, just as it did during Brexit.

 

[Unknown user]

32 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Obviously it's not an identical situation, but there are definitely similarities. Freedom of movement playing a part again, just as it did during Brexit.

 

 

The UK left the EU while Switzerland are choosing not to go ahead with treaties after 7 years of talks because the terms aren't to their liking. They have a different set of motivations and already have agreements in place as the status quo continues.

They aren't going through massive, self harming change, the threats to their economy come from bilateral legislation not keeping up with the situation, and they're on constant talks with the EU.

The Swiss aren't leaving anything, they never joined in the first place, it's really not that similar.

[Ulysses]

13 hours ago, pablo said:

 

....the EU should really be having a think about their position on a number of things if they want to avoid more of this in the future. 

 

What things, and why? 

 

The EU is what it is.  If you don't like the way it is you can cut a compromise deal, sacrificing some of your market access to maintain some of your political principles.  Alternatively, you can **** off.  The UK have opted for the former.  Switzerland have opted for the latter.  Why?  Probably because the Swiss were never members, and they don't face an economic cliff edge.  The impacts will take place gradually as various agreements expire, and along the way Switzerland and the EU will cut individual deals to shore up those elements of agreement that best suit them.  Not all of the EU-CH agreements will stay in place, but most of them will.  In fact, the likelihood is that Switzerland will still end up closer to and more integrated with the EU than the UK is.

[Cade]

The Swiss are still (for now at least) part of EFTA and the Single Market and Schengen.

 

UK isn't.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Cade

[ri Alban]

The UK are out. But some seem to want the whole EU to fold. The only union that will fold is the UK. And Scotland will become part of in some shape the EU. With a hard border, which is no big deal for most of the world and a fecking life's dream for me. 

 

Tick Tock. 

 

[pablo]

I think there are similarities between the motivation for Brexit and the Swiss decision to walk away from their negotiation with the EU.

 

If you take the Swiss government at face value, and why wouldn't you? They apparently didn't fancy the concessions required of them to reach the EU's "level playing field". Switzerland wanted the right to choose who settles within their borders. 

 

Sounds pretty familiar to me.

 

Two of the richest countries in the world and two of the oldest democracies have now said no thanks.

 

 

[Cade]

Under their constitution, the Swiss have referenda on most big matters.

Here's a few picks.

3 December 1972: free trade agreement with the European Communities is approved by 72.5% of voters

8 June 1997: the federal popular initiative "negotiations concerning EU membership: let the people decide!" on requiring the approval of a referendum and the Cantons to launch accession negotiations with the EU is rejected by 74.1% of voters.

21 May 2000: the Bilateral agreements with the EU are accepted by 67.2% of voters.

4 March 2001: the federal popular initiative "yes to Europe!" on opening accession negotiations with the EU is rejected by 76.8% of voters.
5 June 2005: the Schengen Agreement and the Dublin Regulation are approved by 54.6% of voters.
25 September 2005: the extension of the free movement of persons to the ten new members of the European Union is accepted by 56.0% of voters.

8 February 2009: the extension of the free movement of persons to new EU members Bulgaria and Romania is approved by 59.61% of voters.
17 May 2009: introduction of biometric passports, as required by the Schengen acquis, is approved by 50.15% of voters.
17 June 2012: the federal popular initiative "international agreements: let the people speak!" on requiring all international treaties to be approved in a referendum is rejected by 75.3% of voters.

9 February 2014: the federal popular initiative "against mass immigration", which would limit the free movement of people from EU member states, is accepted by 50.3% of voters.
27 September 2020: the popular initiative "For moderate immigration", which would require the government to withdraw from the 1999 Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons and prevent the conclusion of future agreements which grant the free movement of people to foreign nationals, is rejected by 61.7% of voters.

 

So the Swiss public seem quite happy with free trade and free movement of people but stop short of formally joining the EU.

Switzerland's neutrality and independence are hard baked into their national psyche.

It's rich enough to absorb the economic harm from lapsing EU deals.

It'd just do better if it formally joined.

 

Much like the UK, it was the EU's crackdown on tax evasion (Swiss banks are ranked as some of the most corrupt in the world) that led to the breakdown in advancing the future relationship.

 

[ri Alban]

I used to think the population should be the final say in big decisions. But going by Nawbags, Brexiteers, and Boris Bawbag blowers, mibbe, Naw. 

[Taffin]

6 hours ago, ri Alban said:

The UK are out. But some seem to want the whole EU to fold. The only union that will fold is the UK. And Scotland will become part of in some shape the EU. With a hard border, which is no big deal for most of the world and a fecking life's dream for me. 

 

Tick Tock. 

 

 

There should be a hard border in that scenario but the precedent is not to have a hard border so you may not get your wish.

[Jeffros Furios]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

I used to think the population should be the final say in big decisions. But going by Nawbags, Brexiteers, and Boris Bawbag blowers, mibbe, Naw. 

What about the hoose jocks ? 

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, pablo said:

I think there are similarities between the motivation for Brexit and the Swiss decision to walk away from their negotiation with the EU.

 

If you take the Swiss government at face value, and why wouldn't you? They apparently didn't fancy the concessions required of them to reach the EU's "level playing field". Switzerland wanted the right to choose who settles within their borders. 

 

Sounds pretty familiar to me.

 

Two of the richest countries in the world and two of the oldest democracies have now said no thanks.

 

 

 

In fairness, that doesn't really answer my questions about the things about which "the EU should really be having a think about their position".

 

In an agreement, settlement within borders can only refer to two things - settlement of people from within the agreement zone, and settlement of people from outside the zone.  As an EU partner, Switzerland has control over settlement of people from outside the agreement zone, just as the UK did when it was an EU member.  However, settlement of people from within the zone is a different matter.  The EU Single Market is designed so that the market behaves like a single national market.  In single national markets capital, labour, goods and services are free to move anywhere within the market.  If Switzerland is saying to the EU "your people cannot work here" then the EU has no choice whatsoever but to say "fine, pal, let's see what market access you're going to lose".  The same applies to the UK.  The notion that the EU should rethink its position actually means in practice that the EU should abandon its Single Market.  If the EU does that it means that there is no advantage to being in the EU.  That might make sense to someone outside the Union, but it is completely nonsensical to the Union itself.

 

I'm not sure what your point is about "oldest democracies".  Switzerland's first fully democratic election was less than 50 years ago.  One part of the UK didn't have universal adult suffrage until May 1973.  There are plenty of democratic and rich countries in the EU who are comfortable with the Single Market, and who recognise how important that market is to their economic and social development.   Ireland stands out in that regard for particular reasons, but we're not alone.

 

Both the UK and Switzerland have political cultures that feature some degree of exceptionalism.  The UK is not that far removed from its days of empire, and because of that it still occupies a significant position in geopolitics.  Switzerland's form of semi-direct democratic voting is rare if not unique.  Crucially, neither country was occupied in World War Two or in the post-war settlement that held from 1945 to 1990.  In effect, both countries are saying to the EU that their exceptionalist view of themselves should take precedence over the EU's core aspiration to build an maintain a unified Single Market across its entire zone.  If the EU accepts that, the only way it can implement that acceptance is by doing itself fundamental damage.  If the EU rejects that, the UK and Switzerland have to respond in ways they might not like, but they don't have to do themselves fundamental damage. 

 

I don't know how the Swiss perceive this, but it is clear from the political debate in the UK that a lot of British people simply don't understand why this is of such importance to the EU - politically, I just don't think a lot of British people get why the four freedoms have to operate in our multinational market the way they do, and why the principles of that market can't be compromised.  We would be mad to reconsider them.  If anything, we should be looking at areas where they don't work as smoothly as they should and improving them.

 

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

In fairness, that doesn't really answer my questions about the things about which "the EU should really be having a think about their position".

 

In an agreement, settlement within borders can only refer to two things - settlement of people from within the agreement zone, and settlement of people from outside the zone.  As an EU partner, Switzerland has control over settlement of people from outside the agreement zone, just as the UK did when it was an EU member.  However, settlement of people from within the zone is a different matter.  The EU Single Market is designed so that the market behaves like a single national market.  In single national markets capital, labour, goods and services are free to move anywhere within the market.  If Switzerland is saying to the EU "your people cannot work here" then the EU has no choice whatsoever but to say "fine, pal, let's see what market access you're going to lose".  The same applies to the UK.  The notion that the EU should rethink its position actually means in practice that the EU should abandon its Single Market.  If the EU does that it means that there is no advantage to being in the EU.  That might make sense to someone outside the Union, but it is completely nonsensical to the Union itself.

 

I'm not sure what your point is about "oldest democracies".  Switzerland's first fully democratic election was less than 50 years ago.  One part of the UK didn't have universal adult suffrage until May 1973.  There are plenty of democratic and rich countries in the EU who are comfortable with the Single Market, and who recognise how important that market is to their economic and social development.   Ireland stands out in that regard for particular reasons, but we're not alone.

 

Both the UK and Switzerland have political cultures that feature some degree of exceptionalism.  The UK is not that far removed from its days of empire, and because of that it still occupies a significant position in geopolitics.  Switzerland's form of semi-direct democratic voting is rare if not unique.  Crucially, neither country was occupied in World War Two or in the post-war settlement that held from 1945 to 1990.  In effect, both countries are saying to the EU that their exceptionalist view of themselves should take precedence over the EU's core aspiration to build an maintain a unified Single Market across its entire zone.  If the EU accepts that, the only way it can implement that acceptance is by doing itself fundamental damage.  If the EU rejects that, the UK and Switzerland have to respond in ways they might not like, but they don't have to do themselves fundamental damage. 

 

I don't know how the Swiss perceive this, but it is clear from the political debate in the UK that a lot of British people simply don't understand why this is of such importance to the EU - politically, I just don't think a lot of British people get why the four freedoms have to operate in our multinational market the way they do, and why the principles of that market can't be compromised.  We would be mad to reconsider them.  If anything, we should be looking at areas where they don't work as smoothly as they should and improving them.

 

You'd think everyone in the UK had the vote for all eternity, going by some on here. 

[HartleyLegend3]

 

[Beni]

26 minutes ago, HartleyLegend3 said:

 

 

Don't it always seem to go 

That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone.

 

Shouldn't laugh, but...

[Don Dan]

1 hour ago, HartleyLegend3 said:

 

 
Chickens coming home to roost. Being a member was portrayed as being bad when in fact it helped this country function. It’s just a pity that it’s taken lose of one of many benefits we enjoyed by being a member to cause the Leave loud mouth to realise his mistake. 

[inspector]

38 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

 
Chickens coming home to roost. Being a member was portrayed as being bad when in fact it helped this country function. It’s just a pity that it’s taken lose of one of many benefits we enjoyed by being a member to cause the Leave loud mouth to realise his mistake. 

Unfortunately it won't be his mistake. It will be the fault of Johnny Foreigner

[Mikey1874]

On 29/05/2021 at 06:38, pablo said:

I think there are similarities between the motivation for Brexit and the Swiss decision to walk away from their negotiation with the EU.

 

If you take the Swiss government at face value, and why wouldn't you? They apparently didn't fancy the concessions required of them to reach the EU's "level playing field". Switzerland wanted the right to choose who settles within their borders. 

 

Sounds pretty familiar to me.

 

Two of the richest countries in the world and two of the oldest democracies have now said no thanks.

 

 

 

It seems to be more that the EU tightened their negotiating stance with the Swiss to avoid opening the risk of concessions to the British. 

 

No EU / UK deal on financial services yet and a lot more still to be negotiated. 

[Swahili Jambo]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It seems to be more that the EU tightened their negotiating stance with the Swiss to avoid opening the risk of concessions to the British. 

 

No EU / UK deal on financial services yet and a lot more still to be negotiated. 

There will never be a deal on financial services, other than yes from the EU, you can do this but you have to do that as well. Britain really is a small fish in this game.  Russia, Germany, France, Spain, Ukraine etc all eat and spit out small fish.  But everyone get on their UJ glasses and pretend Britain is a major power.  Take them off, cos it is not.    

[WorldChampions1902]

2 hours ago, HartleyLegend3 said:

 

The level of hypocrisy is off the scale. So much for retorts such as,“Project Fear” and “Scaremonger”, when these and a multitude of other warnings were aired before the referendum.
 

Too late now Tim. You won. Get over it!

[siegementality]

Interesting that the hospitality sector (Wetherspoon boss) is advocating more EU migration as there are staff shortages in that sector. Just a shame we don’t have any unemployed people in the UK who could do that work.

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, siegementality said:

Interesting that the hospitality sector (Wetherspoon boss) is advocating more EU migration as there are staff shortages in that sector. Just a shame we don’t have any unemployed people in the UK who could do that work.

 

'Immigration keeps wages down' was another Brexiteer truth.

 

Higher wages would help get the locals in. 

[Cade]

12 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

'Immigration keeps wages down' was another Brexiteer truth.

 

Higher wages would help get the locals in. 

Balls.

 

UK government refusing to up the min wage was what kept wages down.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 hours ago, HartleyLegend3 said:

 

[Mikey1874]

6 hours ago, Cade said:

Balls.

 

UK government refusing to up the min wage was what kept wages down.

 

The Government don't set the wages of private business.

 

Private business does have to meet minimums. But for example most of the big supermarkets have chosen to pay higher wages. The Government didn't do that.

[JackLadd]

The French seem quite happy to send us all their illegal immigrants at least. Bojo should bus them straight up here daily and let our queen of hearts house them up. Voters roll first mind. 

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It seems to be more that the EU tightened their negotiating stance with the Swiss to avoid opening the risk of concessions to the British. 

 

No EU / UK deal on financial services yet and a lot more still to be negotiated. 

 

Why does it always have to be about the British?  It isn't about the British.  It isn't about the Swiss either.  It's about the EU.

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

The French seem quite happy to send us all their illegal immigrants at least. Bojo should bus them straight up here daily and let our queen of hearts house them up. Voters roll first mind. 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Let me just add a couple of 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

13 hours ago, HartleyLegend3 said:

 

This is the same fud who proclaimed during the referendum campaign that businesses would just have to pay UK workers proper wages and deal with the lack of migrant workers.

 

Up ye gammon chops!

[Cade]

UK signs "historic" trade deals promising a "major boost" to exports.

Deals done: 

Liechtenstein (pop 37,378)
Iceland (pop 315,556)
Norway (pop 5.33m)

 

Norway has slightly reduced the current 227% import tax on 26 British products, mainly cheeses.

 

 

*all the deals are worse than the ones we had when we were in the EU

Edited June 4, 2021 by Cade

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

UK signs "historic" trade deals promising a "major boost" to exports.

Deals done: 

Liechtenstein (pop 37,378)
Iceland (pop 315,556)
Norway (pop 5.33m)

 

Norway has slightly reduced the current 227% import tax on 26 British products, mainly cheeses.

 

 

*all the deals are worse than the ones we had when we were in the EU

*** me, for the party stuffed full of business persons(!) they dont half make an utter kent of negotiating deals...

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

UK signs "historic" trade deals promising a "major boost" to exports.

Deals done: 

Liechtenstein (pop 37,378)
Iceland (pop 315,556)
Norway (pop 5.33m)

 

Norway has slightly reduced the current 227% import tax on 26 British products, mainly cheeses.

 

 

*all the deals are worse than the ones we had when we were in the EU

 

You're making this shit up, surely?

 

Britain already had free trade deals with these countries, as - wait for it - part of the European Economic Area and the Single Market.

 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

UK signs "historic" trade deals promising a "major boost" to exports.

Deals done: 

Liechtenstein (pop 37,378)

 

Hopefully Liechtenstein won't claim copyright on the tune to their national anthem. 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

You're making this shit up, surely?

 

Britain already had free trade deals with these countries, as - wait for it - part of the European Economic Area and the Single Market.

 

 

Well yeah, and obviously the new deal's not as good as that but you should have seen what they wanted, ooft! Lichtenstein's nearly a quarter the population of Falkirk you know, we're not pissing about here.

[Ulysses]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Well yeah, and obviously the new deal's not as good as that but you should have seen what they wanted, ooft! Lichtenstein's nearly a quarter the population of Falkirk you know, we're not pissing about here.

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

19 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Well yeah, and obviously the new deal's not as good as that but you should have seen what they wanted, ooft! Lichtenstein's nearly a quarter the population of Falkirk you know, we're not pissing about here.

[WorldChampions1902]

32 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Well yeah, and obviously the new deal's not as good as that but you should have seen what they wanted, ooft! Lichtenstein's nearly a quarter the population of Falkirk you know, we're not pissing about here.

This is “Global Britain” now folks!
 

Reduced to scraping the barrel with tiny countries such as Lichtenstein and then trumpeting the “successes” of our Trade Deal negotiators. We truly are the laughing stock, the rest of Europe sees us as.

 

But they knew what they voted for……….

Edited June 4, 2021 by WorldChampions1902

[Cade]

Behave, you lot.

Liechtenstein is the world's largest exporter of false teeth.

They are a vital resource and it's great that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has secured easy access to all them nashers.

 

 

[Ulysses]

44 minutes ago, Cade said:

Behave, you lot.

Liechtenstein is the world's largest exporter of false teeth.

They are a vital resource and it's great that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has secured easy access to all them nashers.

 

 

 

 

 

[WorldChampions1902]

53 minutes ago, Cade said:

Behave, you lot.

Liechtenstein is the world's largest exporter of false teeth.

They are a vital resource and it's great that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has secured easy access to all them nashers.

 

 

It’s time for Scotland to do a “Nash” from the U.K.

[Unknown user]

14 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

 

🤣

[Nucky Thompson]

48 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

It’s time for Scotland to do a “Nash” from the U.K.

Aye cause Scotland would be a big European super power 

 

We're a shitey wee northern part of the United Kingdom. Get used to it 

[WorldChampions1902]

8 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Aye cause Scotland would be a big European super power 

 

We're a shitey wee northern part of the United Kingdom. Get used to it 

I didn’t say Scotland would be “a European super power”. For the record, they won’t be. So we agree on that.

 

We are most certainly “a northern part of the U.K.” for now at least. So we agree on that.

Back on topic.
Brexit is a sh**show.

It was predicted as such.

There isn’t a single thing to commend it but a multitude of evidence to substantiate the claim of Remainers that it would be a clusterf***k.

Unicorns don’t exist.

Sunny uplands are a fantasy.

 

Discuss.