Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Class of 75]

9 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Your sensibilities on this matter are pretty evident.

? 

[Class of 75]

11 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Your sensibilities on this matter are pretty evident.

I have a Politics Degree and fully understand the workings of the EU

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

? 

 

"Cap in hand" is very emotive. If Thursday's vote is for an extension of Article 50, and that's no done deal, we'll just have to decide what sort of extension we want and go back and ask the EU. No begging, no "cap in hand", just a request. We'll survive, whatever the response. It would be in the EU's interests to grant a reasonable period of extension so that we can get this mess sorted out.

 

[Cade]

Tory mentalists proposing a new amendment which has already pre-emptively been ruled out by the EU.

 

Also talk of a THIRD meaningful vote.

 

And that ruling out No Deal tomorrow may not be binding.

 

[redjambo]

Just now, Class of 75 said:

I have a Politics Degree and fully understand the workings of the EU

 

I didn't say that you didn't understand those workings - I was taking you up on your language.

 

By the way, and please don't take this the wrong way, your "Politics Degree" is a worthless scrap of paper. It doesn't make you any better than the rest of us. And, as Parliament's fannying around over the last two years has clearly shown us, possessing such a degree is not a guarantee of having a sensible approach towards this complex life and society that we live in, in fact perhaps quite the opposite, creating a mentality where dogma outweighs practicality.

 

[Francis Albert]

OK so the sequence is now a vote on no deal, which will be heavily defeated. Then on an extension, which given the best deal on offer from the EU has been rejected, is pointless and will probably also be defeated. And in any event an extension is not within the UK's power to grant.

 

The Remainers have as far as I can see a victory and the final step will be a withdrawal of our Article 50 notice.

 

Long live democracy.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

Tory mentalists proposing a new amendment which has already pre-emptively been ruled out by the EU.

 

Also talk of a THIRD meaningful vote.

 

And that ruling out No Deal tomorrow may not be binding.

 

 

It can't be binding. Events could lead to a forced no-deal if no extension to Article 50 is forthcoming.

[Victorian]

Sounds like the strategists have convinced her she can still continue the current shitshow.      More hopeless twisting and turning,   run down the clock another week or so and repeat today's shambles.     

 

Parliament proposed the other no deal and postponement votes.   The government has tabled the very same no deal vote... but in doing so it has retained control of the house business.    If a non-binding vote results then she's subverted parliament again.

 

It's now time for The Palace to flex it's muscle.

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Victorian said:

Sounds like the strategists have convinced her she can still continue the current shitshow.      More hopeless twisting and turning,   run down the clock another week or so and repeat today's shambles.     

 

Parliament proposed the other no deal and postponement votes.   The government has tabled the very same no deal vote... but in doing so it has retained control of the house business.    If a non-binding vote results then she's subverted parliament again.

 

It's now time for The Palace to flex it's muscle.

 

The Palace?

 

You mean by forcing implementation of the outcome of the referendum vote? Or what exactly?

 

As I said long live democracy

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

OK so the sequence is now a vote on no deal, which will be heavily defeated. Then on an extension, which given the best deal on offer from the EU has been rejected, is pointless and will probably also be defeated. And in any event an extension is not within the UK's power to grant.

 

The Remainers have as far as I can see a victory and the final step will be a withdrawal of our Article 50 notice.

 

Long live democracy.

 

This government has destroyed UK democracy.     The democratic decision of the referendum has been criminally mismanaged and corrupted by this PM.

 

If you really care about democratic integrity ( I doubt you do ) ,    the blame lies in one place only.

[redjambo]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

OK so the sequence is now a vote on no deal, which will be heavily defeated. Then on an extension, which given the best deal on offer from the EU has been rejected, is pointless and will probably also be defeated. And in any event an extension is not within the UK's power to grant.

 

The Remainers have as far as I can see a victory and the final step will be a withdrawal of our Article 50 notice.

 

Long live democracy.

 

Oh come on. It's not like you to give up so easily, FA.

 

There will be more twists and turns to come on this issue than in a twisty-turny thing.

 

If the extension vote succeeds (and the extension request is granted), my money's on an eventual soft Brexit with close connections retained but not officially being part of the EU. A sort of associate member. But I could well be wrong. Everything's still on the table, even May's deal if it comes down to it. Much horse-trading ahead.

 

If the extension vote fails, my money's on a No Deal. We won't withdraw the Article 50 notice. You will have won and you can quaff champagne to your heart's delight.

[Francis Albert]

27 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

My fear here is that all these discussions have been nothing more than smoke and mirrors to put the public off the idea of leaving and force them to support going back to the EU cap in hand. 

Ruling out a no deal exit would mean doing exactly that.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

 

The Palace?

 

You mean by forcing implementation of the outcome of the referendum vote? Or what exactly?

 

As I said long live democracy

 

Maybe.    But primarily to protect the country from a willfully negligent government.     A Palace intervention would be much harder to ignore or be contemptuous of.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

I struggle to see how increased democratic process, via referendum, is undemocratic. 

 

People voted to to leave, now we could vote on the terms. That’s not undemocratic.

 

Thats giving more power to the people to shape their future in a more informed way than some binary option of leave and remain, particulary when the conditions/terms of one of the options was unknown at the time. That needed be the case now.

 

I also don’t buy the argument that if the don’t leave there will be massive public unrest. More likely we see a few isolated incidents from bams who are in it for the trouble. Your average joe isn’t suddenly going to start taking to the street imo.

 

I can understand leavers not wanting a second referendum but to claim it would be undemocratic is absolute garbage imo. 

 

This shouldn’t be about getting a fixed outcome but getting the best outcome.

 

 

 

You are correct.

 

All this shite about democratic integrity and respecting the will of the people is utterly bogus mumbo jumbo.

 

There were no versions of Brexit on the ballot paper.

 

People did not know how badly it would be delivered.

 

There was no incoming,  mandated government to deliver the result.     People did not mandate one party to make a total arse of it.

 

Referendum = another chance to have democracy.    There's been none so far.

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Ruling out a no deal exit would mean doing exactly that.

 

No it wouldn't. It will be a simple request that's all, no emotive "cap in hand", and anyhow it would be in the EU's interest to avoid a No Deal so they should be up for it. If they're not, so be it.

Edited March 12, 2019 by redjambo

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

This government has destroyed UK democracy.     The democratic decision of the referendum has been criminally mismanaged and corrupted by this PM.

 

If you really care about democratic integrity ( I doubt you do ) ,    the blame lies in one place only.

And I doubt you do if that's the level of debate,

 

85% of MPS voted to hold the referendum and a similar number were elected on a manifesto promising to implement that decision.

 

MPs have corrupted democracy by showing there is no form of Brexit they are prepared to deliver by a majority.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

No it wouldn't. It will be a simple request that's all, no emotive "cap in hand", and anyhow it would be in the EU's interest to avoid a No Deal so they should be up for it. If they're not, so be it.

If you rule out a no deal outcome in any negotiation you may as well sign a blank bit of paper and ask the other side to fill in the rest.

It is the first rule of the beginners guide to negotiation.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

And I doubt you do if that's the level of debate,

 

85% of MPS voted to hold the referendum and a similar number were elected on a manifesto promising to implement that decision.

 

MPs have corrupted democracy by showing there is no form of Brexit they are prepared to deliver by a majority.

 

But there's every chance they would have but parliament has been sidelined and cheated at every juncture.      This government has exploited every weakness in parliamentary process to the MAX+.       It's an utter scandal.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

If you rule out a no deal outcome in any negotiation you may as well sign a blank bit of paper and ask the other side to fill in the rest.

It is the first rule of the beginners guide to negotiation.

 

Aye, and you've come out with that mantra before. The trench warfare style of negotiation. That's what has got us into this fine mess.

 

Anyway, there is no negotiation left now. The only thing we have left at this late stage is to ask for an extension.

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

But there's every chance they would have but parliament has been sidelined and cheated at every juncture.      This government has exploited every weakness in parliamentary process to the MAX+.       It's an utter scandal.

The Government has negotiated a deal which seems to me to offer a reasonable compromise between Leave and Stay (neither in nor fully out)and the best deal the EU is going to give us. But there is no majority in Parliament for any form of Brexit. 

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

Aye, and you've come out with that mantra before. The trench warfare style of negotiation. That's what has got us into this fine mess.

 

Anyway, there is no negotiation left now. The only thing we have left at this late stage is to ask for an extension.

And then what?

 

Anyway it is not trench warfare, it is simply negotiation, pure and simple. If an acceptable deal is not negotiable you have to have the right to say no. If you tell the guy in the souk that you can't walk away then he will if you are lucky just double the asking price.

[jambo89]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Aye, and you've come out with that mantra before. The trench warfare style of negotiation. That's what has got us into this fine mess.

 

Anyway, there is no negotiation left now. The only thing we have left at this late stage is to ask for an extension.

 

If there is no negotiation left, how exactly to we go about getting a soft brexit? The EU has already said this deal is the only deal. What good would an extension do? There is no such thing as a soft brexit, the EU wouldn’t allow it for fear of losing other members countries. 

 

If soft brexit was an option, we would’ve had it by now.

[Victorian]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

The Government has negotiated a deal which seems to me to offer a reasonable compromise between Leave and Stay (neither in nor fully out)and the best deal the EU is going to give us. But there is no majority in Parliament for any form of Brexit. 

 

I don't think the deal is that bad.     But her overall approach has alienated and enraged parliament.     Parliament,  from day 1,    has been treated as an enemy of May's Brexit process.   An annoyance.    Something to be ignored,  sidelined and subverted.

 

She has negotiated a deal,    but her arrogance and narcissism has destroyed her chances of delivering it.

 

 

[Victorian]

Nick Watt saying he's hearing that May's no deal vote chicannery will be stripped out in an amendment to enable a binding no deal default position.      As well as the article 50 vote leading to parliament setting the parameters of the length of the extension... not the 2 month farce wanted by May.      

 

Still a chance to allow the sane people to take control.

[Cruyff Turn]

TM should have resigned the minute her vote was defeated.

 

I think there has to be a 2nd referendum now and it has to be simply :Stay in the EU or No Deal Leave. 

[Victorian]

Just now, Cruyff Turn said:

TM should have resigned the minute her vote was defeated.

 

I think there has to be a 2nd referendum now and it has to be simply :Stay in the EU or No Deal Leave. 

 

The exploitation of parliamentary proceedures goes on.     Once again she appears to concede to what parliament has forced upon her but in reality,    it has been mutilated to facilitate something else.     Hopefully parliament remains alert enough to strip out her deceit.     

 

An absolutely binding removal of no deal.     An absolute and meaningful extension of article 50,    set and directed by parliament.

 

May is still trying to call the shots.     That is the ONLY way that no deal can happen.      She must be sidelined.

[Victorian]

Emily Maitlis exposes what Nicky Morgan is.     A totally clueless lightweight who is riding every horse in the race.     More position changes than the Kama Sutra.   

Edited March 12, 2019 by Victorian

[Victorian]

She's off her head.    Chucked it.     WTF?

[Cruyff Turn]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

The exploitation of parliamentary proceedures goes on.     Once again she appears to concede to what parliament has forced upon her but in reality,    it has been mutilated to facilitate something else.     Hopefully parliament remains alert enough to strip out her deceit.     

 

An absolutely binding removal of no deal.     An absolute and meaningful extension of article 50,    set and directed by parliament.

 

May is still trying to call the shots.     That is the ONLY way that no deal can happen.      She must be sidelined.

The removal of no deal and an extension of article 50 seems set to happen tomorrow when MPs vote. So no deal shouldn’t be an issue, should it? 

 

Do you think she’s playing for No deal? 

[Victorian]

Over the past two nights,   Newsnight has devoted about an hour of their programmes to the cabaret of nutters.

 

JRM,  David Davis,  Nadhim Zahawi,  Nicky Morgan,  Ian Paisly jr.

 

These people represent everthing in the way of any kind of reasonable process.    Way,  way too much exposure given to the most useless elements in politics.

[Geoff the Mince]

Emily Maitlis is a fine specimen of a  woman .

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Tory mentalists proposing a new amendment which has already pre-emptively been ruled out by the EU.

 

Also talk of a THIRD meaningful vote.

 

And that ruling out No Deal tomorrow may not be binding.

 

 

They still must think they can ditch the Backstop.

 

That there will now be more negociations and May will win vote in 2 weeks after EU caves in. 

 

Agree Labour's plan for a customs union and you don't need a Backstop. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

The removal of no deal and an extension of article 50 seems set to happen tomorrow when MPs vote. So no deal shouldn’t be an issue, should it? 

 

Do you think she’s playing for No deal? 

 

She changed the nature of the vote.    To rule out no deal,   but only notionally,    with no deal remaining the default position.

 

Really.

 

It's hopefully going to be burned off in an amendment.

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

She changed the nature of the vote.    To rule out no deal,   but only notionally,    with no deal remaining the default position.

 

Really.

 

It's hopefully going to be burned off in an amendment.

 

Vote tomorrow does not stop No Deal. 

 

Government needs to introduce new legislation. 

[Victorian]

I'm still ****ing buzzing at trying to understand what Nicky Morgan said there.     Take a look if this appears on the website.      

[Mikey1874]

7 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

The removal of no deal and an extension of article 50 seems set to happen tomorrow when MPs vote. So no deal shouldn’t be an issue, should it? 

 

Do you think she’s playing for No deal? 

 

We leave on 29 March unless new legislation changes that. 

 

Government needs to do that. 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Vote tomorrow does not stop No Deal. 

 

Government needs to introduce new legislation. 

 

Which is hopefully what can be forced at some point.     

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

I'm still ****ing buzzing at trying to understand what Nicky Morgan said there.     Take a look if this appears on the website.      

 

This?

 

 

[Victorian]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

This?

 

 

 

Maitlis highlighted her incredible myriad of different positions.     She then produced an equally incredible sharing bucket of word salad.    

[Cruyff Turn]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

We leave on 29 March unless new legislation changes that. 

 

Government needs to do that. 

So regardless of whether MPs vote to take it off the table tomorrow? ?‍♂️

[Cruyff Turn]

Sorry Mikey just seen your post above. 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Cruyff Turn

[Watt-Zeefuik]

The "don't rule out no deal, ruins our negotiating position" is astonishing to me. It's like a man who's got a gun to his head telling folk nearby that if he pulls the trigger, they're going to get bits of his head all over them, and surely they don't want that.

 

I mean they don't, but they're not going to come out on the worse end of the deal.

 

No deal Brexit would be an unpleasant disruption for the EU and catastrophic for the UK. The mind boggles.

[redjambo]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

If you rule out a no deal outcome in any negotiation you may as well sign a blank bit of paper and ask the other side to fill in the rest.

It is the first rule of the beginners guide to negotiation.

 

Yes, if you're adopting an antagonistic negotiating position. There is so much more that can be gained by conciliatory negotiation, going on the basis of both parties saying "look, let's just sort this out so we're not both in the shit".

 

Your old-fashioned approach is akin to a wife who is divorcing her husband starting out with "I can go for full custody of the kids, chuck you out of the house, make your life a misery, *and* keep the Hearts lego bus I bought you that you're so fond of. So be good to me! Be good to me!!!" What sort of negotiation is that? It's old hat antagonistic, that what it is. It's the negotiation stance that you adopt when you're dealing with implacable enemies, or buying something in the souk from a ruthless merchant, it's not for negotiating a split from someone you've been going out with for almost half a century.

 

 

[Class of 75]

5 hours ago, Ugly American said:

The "don't rule out no deal, ruins our negotiating position" is astonishing to me. It's like a man who's got a gun to his head telling folk nearby that if he pulls the trigger, they're going to get bits of his head all over them, and surely they don't want that.

 

I mean they don't, but they're not going to come out on the worse end of the deal.

 

No deal Brexit would be an unpleasant disruption for the EU and catastrophic for the UK. The mind boggles.

The no deal option defends democracy and respects the referendum result.  We are leaving the EU not the other way around and should dictate the terms. We should leave with our dignity intact and invite them to negotiate the best package. If they can't agree so be it we revert to WTO rules and move forward on our own terms. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Class of 75

[The Comedian]

I still cannot agree that subverting the initial vote is more democratic not less. We would be even more informed after a second referendum, should we run a third? At the next election, having seen the new cabinet I think we should vote again as they'll be a disaster IMO and I've changed my mind?

 

People should just be honest in this situation. They desperately want to remain in the EU and will do anything to achieve it. 

 

As it is waking up this morning I think you'll probably get your wish in the fullness of time, without the peril of asking the people. Our parliament/civil service has never wanted to leave and has poured water on negotiations from the start. The only question is what the EU 27 will extract for an extension?

[Costanza]

6 hours ago, Ugly American said:

The "don't rule out no deal, ruins our negotiating position" is astonishing to me. It's like a man who's got a gun to his head telling folk nearby that if he pulls the trigger, they're going to get bits of his head all over them, and surely they don't want that.

 

I mean they don't, but they're not going to come out on the worse end of the deal.

 

No deal Brexit would be an unpleasant disruption for the EU and catastrophic for the UK. The mind boggles.

Exactly this. It's astonishing how many on this board, let alone politicians advocate a no deal. Have they not done any research on the impact on business and jobs?

[gashauskis9]

Some Tory muppet on BBC this morning still convinced that the EU will go back to the table to renegotiate.  Incredible.

[Victorian]

18 minutes ago, Gashauskis9 said:

Some Tory muppet on BBC this morning still convinced that the EU will go back to the table to renegotiate.  Incredible.

 

Imbeciles stuck in a redundant dogma.    

[Bindy Badgy]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, The Comedian said:

I still cannot agree that subverting the initial vote is more democratic not less. We would be even more informed after a second referendum, should we run a third? At the next election, having seen the new cabinet I think we should vote again as they'll be a disaster IMO and I've changed my mind?

 

People should just be honest in this situation. They desperately want to remain in the EU and will do anything to achieve it. 

 

Whilst I take your general point there are other issues with the way in which the Leave campaign was conducted which make me very nervous about the result and the way in which our democracy is going. Boris Johnson's multiple lies about the number of EU laws regarding bananas, money going to the NHS and so on is the obvious point and it looks like they also broke rules with regards to campaign finances and it now looks like there may have been Russian interference as well.

 

I don't know what the punishment should be for this nonsense but at present, there doesn't appear to be any. Politicians can make up a load of bullshit, break loads of rules then after the election is won take a light slap on the wrist. Certain people seem to treat the derisory fines as a cost of doing business.

[The Mighty Thor]

Radio 5 this morning. 

Some absolute ****ing rammed from Englandshire;

"We should stick 2 fingers up t' EU

We've got rabbit's in't fields and we can dig us taters in't garden. We'd be right."

 

**** off. Just **** right off.