Entire high rise alight in London

[Tars]

Oh just **** off. Bodies are still smoldering FFS.

I know. You should tell that to the political protestors outside Downing St.

[Cade]

didn't take long for the arsehole squad to turn up on this thread

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Fed up tbh of posters in The Shed who are clearly not just Hearts fans having a blether about non-football topics.

[Rudolf's Mate]

My point is, the tower blocks were there long before any austerity measures came around.

 

Now it is clear that something has very badly went wrong here, and budget cuts and austerity may well have had a large part to play, there may even be criminal charges which follow, however lets wait until the full investigation determines what actually happened and if anyone is to blame and if there is, I hope they face the full weight of the law.

 

However that doesn't address the problem of in 2017 people living stacked up on top of each other in Ghetto Tower Blocks as you claim.

As has been pointed out, where is the space to house 600+ people from just one tower block, especially in places like London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc.

And as I've said, one tower block such as the size of Grenfell is equivalent to a village, the UK just doesn't have the room to build hundreds of new villages, notwithstanding would the residents want to be moved miles away out of the area, as we have seen the residents of Grenfell are demanding to be re-housed within the same borough, they don't want to move.

 

Many tower blocks are quite nice inside, I remember visiting the wife's grandparents who lived at High Coats in Coatbridge, the flats themselves were very nice and quite spacious, now I don't know what the insides of the Grenfell block were like, maybe they were like a ghetto as you've cliamed, but without seeing them myself I can't comment.

You're right about these tower blocks being around a lot longer than austerity cuts etc. The tower went up in 70's when health and safety wouldn't have been anywhere near as advanced as it is now. As with every type of property, through the last few decades they've had to meet strict regulations. It might not be just one government that's culpable and it might go back years and years however it's certainly looking like action could/should have been taken recently that probably would have prevented this.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

If I was a plant for far-right ideology I'd think a football messageboard was great place to hang out too tbh so in a way can't really blame them.

[Tommy Brown]

Only 2% of the land mass of the UK is developed.

 

The "no space" excuse is nothing but a myth.

 

They just don't want to spend the money on new housing schemes.

 

Not looking for an argument, but what % is undevelopable?

What % is not desired?

 

What % of the London area is developed?

[Notts1874]

I know. You should tell that to the political protestors outside Downing St.

You odious horrific individual.

[hueyview]

Protest march swollen to 1,000 people.

Noticed this....... I watch Can't pay, won't pay etc programmes on tv.......many of the poor sent to Birmingham, Glasgow and Brighton....as cleansing London of benefit/elderly folk.....

 

Londoners for centuries cleared for the rich kids........

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Anyway, shouldn't get involved. Sorry for biting.

[Notts1874]

And he's gone.

[hueyview]

Disappointing (yet unsurprising) to see the leftists using this tragedy to stage a political protest.

Nothing to do with justice. All about the hatred of the Conservatives.

Very disrespectful to the grieving families.

Leftists.........so 1970s, don't you know.......

[AlphonseCapone]

****ing cretin.

[hueyview]

It's been estimated that there are up to 1 million empty homes up and down the UK, being used as "land banks".

 

That's a national disgrace.

I know at first hand and as a housing officer,((1990s)that there are dozens of flats...well over 100 at that time, so uninhabitable with no funds to make habitable......

[Seymour M Hersh]

didn't take long for the arsehole squad to turn up on this thread

 

Indeed Cade and here you are in all you anarchic glory. 

[fabienleclerq]

Oh there's plenty of space, plenty of land, but not all of it is suitable to build houses on.

 

Around about 70% of the UK's land is used for Agriculture, food production and we all have to eat, then there are large area's of land on flood plains and we all know the problems that building houses on flood plains cause, then there is vast area's in Wales, central England and the Lowlands and Highlands of Scotland which you struggle to build a sheep pen on never mind houses, then there are the forests, do we cut down all the trees to make way for houses.

 

I know what your saying, and it might look like there is plenty of land and to a degree there is, but huge area's are not suitable for house use.

 

Now making better use of the derelict buildings which are eyesores in every town and city in the country would make a small difference and would be better than nothing.

There is also lots of brown field sites which could be used for houses, but as always money is a factor, there are many unfinished housing schemes dotted about which had to be stopped, because the builders ran out of money to finish them off.

 

There's tonnes of empty homes and derelict buildings like you said there's just not a will to spend money on it.

 

I just think we need to improve the living standards in poorer areas not just tart them up all fur coat and no knickers so they're nicer to look at from the outside. I hate that the tories talk like the country is a bank account and that they aren't even shy about letting us know money is more important to them than people .

[Armageddon]

Anybody seen the interview on the BBC site with the boy who left with a group of 7 and when he got out his brother wasn't there, his phone goes and it's his brother screaming "why did you leave me?" from inside the flats, he never got out and died.

 

Sad sad times.

[Do The Dance]

Much as though it can be understandable, this kind of tragedy brings out the worst in people. Proper concerns and genuine attempts to bring relief to the survivors, will be hijacked by people, who are only there to agitate.

It also brings out the best in people, as can be seen by people of many walks of life, and religion, working together to help those poor people. It is a glowing example of the goodness of humanity. Officialdom has to match this now.

Like her or not, depending on your political point of view, what sort of help to the situation would May going into a lions den of people, who hated her before this tragedy, have provided? Reports suggest the Queen was heckled when she went to see the people today. It's like some people wanted May to go in there to see her get assaulted or kick off a riot. Corbyn was on a completely no lose situation, as he knew no blame could be attached to him. The London Mayor almost got himself into a bad situation, even though he's a Labour man.

Complaints about officials trying to deflect blame, when they should keep their mouths shut, but other complaints when officials give no comment responses to 24 hour news, looking to fill their extensive air time.

To me, the 24 hours news people have been shown up for the vultures they are, over the recent mass murders and this tragedy. Stirring up peoples emotions to then capture more reaction.

Hard though it is, the investigation should be allowed to take place, as quickly as possible, without the pressure to lay blame without due diligence. In the meantime, authorities of every political colour need to, urgently, review and check current living accommodation they provide.

The residents have been complaining for months, if not years on their issues with this high flat. Fire safety has been taken away from the fire service due to Tory cuts. Does it not speak volumes of this government that, in your own words, these people hated her before this tragedy? Why do you think that is?

[SectionDJambo]

The residents have been complaining for months, if not years on their issues with this high flat. Fire safety has been taken away from the fire service due to Tory cuts. Does it not speak volumes of this government that, in your own words, these people hated her before this tragedy? Why do you think that is?

I reckon the people from the immediate area hate her, not just the residents of that block. The reason being the same as why Corbyn wouldn't be liked in a Tory area.

It's the way politics are. It wouldn't matter if she was the most liberal Tory in history.

People go on about the Tories as though they were a dictatorship. Whether we like it or not, they won the previous election and more people voted for them than Labour in the recent one.

The people who feel so badly about that should ask their Labour representatives how the hell such a supposed unpopular political party can keep theirs out of power, to the detriment of all these poor, unfortunate people. How are Labour so inept as to let this happen over and over.

Mob rule won't do it. Winning the argument by debate and informing will.

[redm]

I reckon the people from the immediate area hate her, not just the residents of that block. The reason being the same as why Corbyn wouldn't be liked in a Tory area.

It's the way politics are. It wouldn't matter if she was the most liberal Tory in history.

People go on about the Tories as though they were a dictatorship. Whether we like it or not, they won the previous election and more people voted for them than Labour in the recent one.

The people who feel so badly about that should ask their Labour representatives how the hell such a supposed unpopular political party can keep theirs out of power, to the detriment of all these poor, unfortunate people. How are Labour so inept as to let this happen over and over.

Mob rule won't do it. Winning the argument by debate and informing will.

 

If they don't like someone it's probably because they don't feel as if that person represents their interests. Wealthy and comfortable people probably don't feel as if Corbyn would prioritise them - and they'd be correct. If poor and vulnerable people don't think the PM or govt represents them or their interests, they're undoubtedly right on that front too. I know which side I'd be on with that particular hierarchy of need.

[Do The Dance]

I reckon the people from the immediate area hate her, not just the residents of that block. The reason being the same as why Corbyn wouldn't be liked in a Tory area.

It's the way politics are. It wouldn't matter if she was the most liberal Tory in history.

People go on about the Tories as though they were a dictatorship. Whether we like it or not, they won the previous election and more people voted for them than Labour in the recent one.

The people who feel so badly about that should ask their Labour representatives how the hell such a supposed unpopular political party can keep theirs out of power, to the detriment of all these poor, unfortunate people. How are Labour so inept as to let this happen over and over.

Mob rule won't do it. Winning the argument by debate and informing will.

I was talking about the immediate area, not just Grenfell tower.

If the poorer people of this country hate and feel massively let down by the government then that speaks far higher volumes to me than anything else.

[elvoys]

It's been estimated that there are up to 1 million empty homes up and down the UK, being used as "land banks".

 

That's a national disgrace.

If u have an open market for foreign purchase of housing and want your capital to be the global hub of the world then there's not much you can do. Might not feel good that Qatati prince has an empty 13 million penthouse but thats what markets are.

 

However Corbyn is talking about state seizures of these which is a fundamental contempt for rule of law and property rights. Much more irresponsible and dangerous mob fuelling than anything any other politician has come out with.

[SectionDJambo]

I was talking about the immediate area, not just Grenfell tower.

If the poorer people of this country hate and feel massively let down by the government then that speaks far higher volumes to me than anything else.

I agree with you.

But I feel that most people in the U.K. are not either left or right in political views. They are more central and open minded to all of us. I think that the Tories get away with their agenda because Labour scare potential voters away. This makes it easy for the Tories to ignore the needs of the population that need some support. It's called the arrogance of power.

History shows that this arrogance catches up with any government in the U.K. It caught up with the Tories over Brexit, where the right wing wanted us out so they wouldn't have the EEC holding them back from their ideas.

Happily enough though, the recent election showed, in my opinion, that this has backfired spectacularly on them.

There is a wind of change which Labour should sail with. If they don't, they are as culpable as the Tories for the plight of the people who need that bit of support to get going.

[elvoys]

The residents have been complaining for months, if not years on their issues with this high flat. Fire safety has been taken away from the fire service due to Tory cuts. Does it not speak volumes of this government that, in your own words, these people hated her before this tragedy? Why do you think that is?

Fire response time was six mins. Despite cuts, the centralised reforms to Met fire service actually improved efficiency here and that was down to Boris.

[elvoys]

The cause of this tragedy isn't immigration.

It's victims may be immigrants....or old people...or people on benefits.......

The solution to the problem (fire safety in design & construction) isn't population control.

The solution to much of the worlds problems IS population control, but not here.

 

At least you didn't focus on Islamic immigration

Did i say cause? I said an ongoing issue is that London is a UK immigrant magnet which is what fuels population growth. There is not the space or budget to make all social housing two up two downs in the most densely populated city in Europe. Edited June 16, 2017 by elvoys

[Unknown user]

Did i say cause? I said an ongoing issue is that London is a UK immigrant magnet which is what fuels population growth. There is not the space or budget to make all social housing two up two downs in the most densely populated city in Europe.

You got a source for that?

Because I checked and found a list of the top nine in Europe and London's not even on it.

[Locky]

Anybody seen the interview on the BBC site with the boy who left with a group of 7 and when he got out his brother wasn't there, his phone goes and it's his brother screaming "why did you leave me?" from inside the flats, he never got out and died.

 

Sad sad times.

My heart sank reading that.

[elvoys]

You got a source for that?

Because I checked and found a list of the top nine in Europe and London's not even on it.

Switches back and forth between Paris. The list you looked at would be traditional city limits so Monaco will likely be on list which is silly . But urban pop I believe takes into account entire Greater London sprawl which is why it says its second here.

 

Urban area is second most populated, greater London is European largest. I may be wrong on density but my original point remains. Its choca.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London

Edited June 16, 2017 by elvoys

[Locky]

It's been estimated that there are up to 1 million empty homes up and down the UK, being used as "land banks".

 

That's a national disgrace.

That's disgusting if so. That people are doing this just to make money while hundreds of thousands are homeless.

[redm]

Anybody seen the interview on the BBC site with the boy who left with a group of 7 and when he got out his brother wasn't there, his phone goes and it's his brother screaming "why did you leave me?" from inside the flats, he never got out and died.

 

Sad sad times.

Christ. That's not something you'd ever recover from. [emoji30]

[elvoys]

Christ. That's not something you'd ever recover from. [emoji30]

The one I heard on LBC about the kids thinking Superman would come to save them got me. Life is so utterly fragile. Awful.

[felix]

Did i say cause? I said an ongoing issue is that London is a UK immigrant magnet which is what fuels population growth. There is not the space or budget to make all social housing two up two downs in the most densely populated city in Europe.

Immigration isn't relevant to the Grenfell Tower tragedy, and population control isn't the solution

.

[elvoys]

Immigration isn't relevant to the Grenfell Tower tragedy, and population control isn't the solution

.

* the building was built in sixties but they added half a dozen more rows on top.

 

*the building was almost entirely consisting of immigrant population. They were literally living on top of one another.

 

*UK pop growth is almost entirely down to immigration and it is disproportionately concentrated in London where house prices and space is already at a premium.

 

*tower living is therefore a reality but one that is clearly not ideal.

 

I can't think how population growth in London when it comes to the issue of future social housing policy could be more relevant.

[Cade]

This is not a political crisis.

 

It's a systematic crisis.

 

Resident's concerns about the safety of their dwellings have been ignored for years.

 

They have been viewed as trouble makers and sent threatening letters for making complaints.

 

They have had no input in the renovations and upgrades of their homes. Corners have been cut in order to maintain profits. Whether or not these building works meet current regulations is a moot point when it becomes clear that the regulations themselves are not fit for purpose.

 

Successive governments and councillors of all political persuasions have suppressed safety reports compiled by independent experts. They have ignored calls to tighten regulations. Only a few months ago, Parliament voted against a law that would force council houses to be "fit for human habitation", something you would like to think wasn't even debatable in the 21st century in one of the world's richest nations.

 

The poorer residents of London are treated no better than cattle, housed in unsafe, rotting hulks, fit only to serve coffee and sell clothes to their mega-rich neighbours.

 

London councils look for any reason they can to condemn their dilapidated estates, deport the poorer residents to other parts of the nation, knock down the old houses, build new ones and flog them to foreign investors who will never inhabit them or to BTL landlord who will immediately sub-divide them into tiny battery-hen style studio apartments in order to increase their profits.

 

The housing system in this shitehole nation is broken at every level and lives are now on the line due to a failure to keep it tightly regulated.

[Unknown user]

Switches back and forth between Paris. The list you looked at would be traditional city limits so Monaco will likely be on list which is silly . But urban pop I believe takes into account entire Greater London sprawl which is why it says its second here.

 

Urban area is second most populated, greater London is European largest. I may be wrong on density but my original point remains. Its choca.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London

From the source you offer density is given as a figure, 5518/km2. Paris is ten times that while cities like Athens, Barcelona, Bucharest are also much higher.

You may feel like it's choca but compared to other cities your suggestion that London is full (I know, I'm paraphrasing, but that was the undeniable message) seems to be way off the mark.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Quick point to the Mods. Can you please remove the HOT sticker from the thread?

 

Secondly, I hope KCTMO and councillors end up in jail for corporate manslaughter, along with whatever moron signed off on fire safety.

[Rousset1]

didn't take long for the arsehole squad to turn up on this thread

 

Ironic.

[felix]

* the building was built in sixties but they added half a dozen more rows on top.

 

*the building was almost entirely consisting of immigrant population. They were literally living on top of one another.

 

*UK pop growth is almost entirely down to immigration and it is disproportionately concentrated in London where house prices and space is already at a premium.

 

*tower living is therefore a reality but one that is clearly not ideal.

 

I can't think how population growth in London when it comes to the issue of future social housing policy could be more relevant.

Housing policy's a red herring,

Building wasn't built in 60's.

Residents demographics have nothing to do with the issue.

 

Problem lies with construction; competitive tendering , specification, workmanship, regulations and value engineering - not population growth ! 

[aussieh]

Linked point - too many people in London and too much UK immigration goes there. the only long term solution is not to keep expanding city but to think seriously about population control. Simon Jenkins was on 5 live talking about terraced houses are much better but that was fine in post war period of a million people. Land now is too expensive and limited green space should stay that.

Or invest in other cities, like they have London. Edited June 17, 2017 by aussieh

[aussieh]

Build new homes. If you give people nice houses, they tend to look after them.(Pride) Put them in these concrete slums, they tend to give up on life.

[Rudolf's Mate]

Build new homes. If you give people nice houses, they tend to look after them.(Pride) Put them in these concrete slums, they tend to give up on life.

Agreed they've done that with an area down here near Portsmouth and it's worked plus revitalised the area.

 

Unfortunately it's a bit harder for areas like London. Think I read there were 700 high rise there alone!

 

Sure I read that there were 1500 of these empty properties around that area alone. I'm against seizing them however surely properties that have been empty for 12+ months with no work done could be used as a temp measure.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Theresa May's interview yesterday was awful. Can't answer any question without reverting to robot mode. Sounded like she was talking about unemployment figures or something.

 

No idea who ultimately is to blame for this but she really needs to go.

[Victorian]

Theresa May's interview yesterday was awful. Can't answer any question without reverting to robot mode. Sounded like she was talking about unemployment figures or something.

 

No idea who ultimately is to blame for this but she really needs to go.

She's a cold woman. No compassion. Everyone can understand the reasons why her visits to the scene had to be a bit at arms length. She has to be kept secure. But her response has lacked any compassion.

 

She is what she is and giving zero response wasn't an option. It's inevitable that her human failings were laid bare by such an awful event.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Victorian

[Do The Dance]

Fire response time was six mins. Despite cuts, the centralised reforms to Met fire service actually improved efficiency here and that was down to Boris.

The 1st response isn't all that is important though, it's the amount of pumps that turn up in 6 minutes, that will have been less than what was available before the cuts.

 

Anyway that's not just this fire but every single fire which requires at least 2 pumps across the country.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Do The Dance

[glynnlondon]

HSE need a look at themselves as well passing stuff not deemed fit for purpose in other countries not the first time its happened either.

Too busy chasing boys round sites for not wearing a hi vis.

About time they started dealing with the bigger problems.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The 1st response isn't all that is important though, it's the amount of pumps that turn up in 6 minutes, that will have been less than what was available before the cuts.

 

Anyway that's not just this fire but every single fire which requires at least 2 pumps across the country.

.

 

The trouble is there's virtually no area where people are happy to see cuts or where anyone accepts cuts but in reality, cuts have to be made. The country is pretty unstable atm and that's owing to a lot of people going back very many years.

[elvoys]

The 1st response isn't all that is important though, it's the amount of pumps that turn up in 6 minutes, that will have been less than what was available before the cuts.

 

Anyway that's not just this fire but every single fire which requires at least 2 pumps across the country.

Point taken. But as far as I see there is no pop or canon available that could get that high if u can't get to it from inside.

 

Surely the issue of high high rise living full stop needs to be taken into account here?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Point taken. But as far as I see there is no pop or canon available that could get that high if u can't get to it from inside.

 

Surely the issue of high high rise living full stop needs to be taken into account here?

Very much so. It seems blindingly obvious that any building like that should have serious fire prevention measures.

 

How the **** that building could have no central fire alarm and no sprinkler system I'll never know. It's like operating a train with no breaks. People need to go to prison for this.

[pablo]

People have died here because they're poor. It's ****ing disgusting.

 

This is Hillsborough all over again.

[glynnlondon]

Lakanal house in Camberwell had a large fire a few years back. Seems the default mode has been to brush it under the carpet regardless of council in power.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Lakanal house in Camberwell had a large fire a few years back. Seems the default mode has been to brush it under the carpet regardless of council in power.

Most councils are populated by idiots who are more worried about their salaries and self-preservation than anything else. Follow private eye for stories about woeful chief execs who leave one council under a cloud (with a big pay off) and roll up in another authority on an equally big wage.