Manchester Arena

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Difference is though at Catholic schools there is a huge variety of religions and cultures (including Muslims) that all integrate together in society. Not the same in islamic schools where it is only muslims isolated from fellow British teenagers where they could well develop an attitude of 'us vs them'.

[Maroon Sailor]

Threat level at critical is not good to hear, if it's been raised for the right reason. It's only supposed to be for specific intelligence that an attack is imminently expected.

If it's been set at the highest level for the right reasons, they must know of someone.

Very hard to sustain the threat level at critical. Suspect with the cup finals coming up this weekend they can't afford to take any chances.

 

If they are satisfied he was a lone wolf it'll go back to severe.

[Stephane Grappelli]

Wtf? In the context of the conversation we were discussing segregated schools and it was being suggested those Islamic schools that teach hate should be banned. My point was we have Catholic only schools in this country so to ban one faith school and not another is somewhat hypocritical. That said I do and always have thought segregated schools are wrong, Scotlands bigotry problem cannot be swept under the carpet despite the authorities best efforts to do so, segregated schooling contributes to the issue.

Catholic schools are not Catholic only. I went to one and there were Protestants, Muslims, Jews, Atheists... you name it.

 

Bigotry and sectarianism come from ignorance.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I said one of the reasons.

And I'm saying you're wrong.

[Rudy T]

Catholic schools are not Catholic only. I went to one and there were Protestants, Muslims, Jews, Atheists... you name it.

 

Bigotry and sectarianism come from ignorance.

But you must concede that they breed sectarianism in certain parts of Scotland? If you don't your being naive.

[Stephane Grappelli]

But you must concede that they breed sectarianism in certain parts of Scotland? If you don't your being naive.

What evidence do you have to support that? Far more likely that the bigotry is ingrained before children set foot in the school.

[Stephane Grappelli]

And I'm saying you're wrong.

Very ignorant post in more ways than one.

[JyTees]

What evidence do you have to support that? Far more likely that the bigotry is ingrained before children set foot in the school.

I went to Forrester's next door to St Augustine's. It certainly didn't breed harmony.

 

Before you say anything about me being an "ingrained" bigot, my mother's school was St Tams.

 

Not sure how you're managing to miss Rudy's point... spectacularly.

[John Findlay]

And I'm saying you're wrong.

Fine. I say I'm right.

[Stephane Grappelli]

I went to Forrester's next door to St Augustine's. It certainly didn't breed harmony.

 

Before you say anything about me being an "ingrained" bigot, my mother's school was St Tams.

 

Not sure how you're managing to miss Rudy's point... spectacularly.

I had no intention of saying that.

 

Not missing any point, think you are though. I was just asking him to back it up with proof.

[The Future's Maroon]

I get the impression, hopefully wrongly, that they (Gov/security services) are expecting something tomorrow or days ahead...sad times, even just going through Waverley this morning on way to work was odd with so much police presence.

 

This raising the alert level and talk of military on the streets is alarming but feck them, this is what these cowards want, won't stop me strolling through head held high.

[MacDonald Jardine]

"we allow Catholics to go to different schools"

 

Bloody hell, they'll be wanting indoor toilets and the vote next. I know people like to blame Catholic schools for a lot of things but tying them in to last night's atrocity is rather pushing it.

It isn't though.

And don't play the wee downtrodden card.

We now have non denominational schools in the truest sense of the word or Catholic schools in the state system.

Where are the Presbyterian schools?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[SwindonJambo]

But you must concede that they breed sectarianism in certain parts of Scotland? If you don't your being naive.

I presume you mean the West? Because if you do you are 100% correct. Ask any West Coast born and bred Jambo on here and I bet few, if any will disagree. I am but one. Attitudes are still so deep rooted there. Some very well heeled professional people who you really would expect to know better have some horrific views straight out of the dark ages. Some of them meet every fortnight at Ibronx. While it may have softened in recent decades it still has a long way to go.

 

I don't believe segregated education is the sole cause but it certainly exacerbates prejudices. It's 2017 in a supposedly civilised country and it's long past time to consign any kind of segregation to the dustbin of history. Making kids different from their peers at such an early age breeds mistrust and will only ever lead to problems. The same of course applies to all other faith schools.

 

If you want to follow a faith, or more accurately, if you want to brainwash and indoctrinate your children into one then it's a personal choice and leisure activity and has no place whatsoever in education especially so if it's state funded.

[Stephane Grappelli]

It isn't though.

And don't play the wee downtrodden card.

We now have non denominational schools in the truest sense of the word or Catholic schools in the state system.

Where are the Presbyterian schools?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Wee downtrodden card? What are you on about?

 

I went to a "non demonational" primary and a Catholic secondary. At the primary we had as much time with the minister from the local Church of Scotland as we did with the local Catholic priest at secondary.

 

In my opinion there shouldn't be any religion in schools but if there is then provision for different faiths should be made. If that means Catholic or Presbyterian schools then so be it.

[Dagger Is Back]

I presume you mean the West? Because if you do you are 100% correct. Ask any West Coast born and bred Jambo on here and I bet few, if any will disagree. I am but one. Attitudes are still so deep rooted there. Some very well heeled professional people who you really would expect to know better have some horrific views straight out of the dark ages. Some of them meet every fortnight at Ibronx. While it may have softened in recent decades it still has a long way to go.

 

I don't believe segregated education is the sole cause but it certainly exacerbates prejudices. It's 2017 in a supposedly civilised country and it's long past time to consign any kind of segregation to the dustbin of history. Making kids different from their peers at such an early age breeds mistrust and will only ever lead to problems. The same of course applies to all other faith schools.

 

If you want to follow a faith, or more accurately, if you want to brainwash and indoctrinate your children into one then it's a personal choice and leisure activity and has no place whatsoever in education especially so if it's state funded.

Well said sir

[niblick1874]

I would gather together all those that thought this up, those that brought it to fruition along with those that have apparently been on holiday instead of making sure everything was on the up and up, then I'd drag them over the coals to put it mildly. 

 

I can't believe they thought it to be a good idea let alone missed what's going on, but that's just me. 

 

edit, pertaining to the school vid.

[¼½¾]

How has the biggest city in the world, Tokyo, avoided any terrorist attacks from Islamic extremists? 

 

What are the Japanese doing that the UK, France, the US etc are not?

 

Japan has a population of around 127 million of which around only 100k are Muslim.  A few years ago it was leaked that Japanese police had extensive surveillance records on over 70k of those 100k. As well as this, Mosques, Halal restaurants and Islam related organisations were all being monitored.  Apparently it is still going on, with the approval of their legal system.   I don't think that even if we wanted to, we could replicate this in the West due to the much larger numbers involved.

 

Googling 'Japanese Muslim surveillance' will give a number of links.

[Escobar PHM]

One not all of the reason(s) that got the Irish republicans around the table was that we started playing them at their own game.

John. sorry to disagree but the 'shoot to kill' policy was actually a godsend to a flagging war weary organisation which boosted recruitment, rooted out informants and forced the IRA and splinter groups to form themselves into smaller more compact cells to avoid risk of infiltration. Republican atrocities carried on for at least 12-15 years after the first 'shoot to kill' incidents in the mid 80's. The alleged policy had no impact whatsoever in bringing the IRA to the table. It wasn't designed to do that either. 

[Arthur Morgan]

Been watching it most of the night as had an early night and woke up early.

 

Utterly harrowing and that woman on GMTV who put an appeal out as she had still not heard from her 15yr old daughter had me in tears.

Unfortunately confirmed dead by her mum in a post on Facebook

[chester copperpot]

Unfortunately confirmed dead by her mum in a post on Facebook

 

Awwww no. She's the same age as my son too. Her poor mother and of course what a shame for the young girl.

[Jeff]

5 year old is now the youngest fatality

 

This just keeps getting worse and worse.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Not much point in a threat level if you raise it after an attack

[joondalupjambo]

This is what happened with the Berlin Christmas Market killer.

 

He was due to be deported back to Tunisia, but the Tunisians didn't want him back as he was a known criminal, so they dragged their heels in issuing him with a new passport, which incidentally came through I think on the day he was killed in Italy.

As much as I can understand why folks are saying they should be deported, it's just not as simple as that under International law, besides what happens if nobody agrees to take them, where do you send them then?

 

Stopping them from gaining entry back into the country isn't as easy as folks seem to think either.

The Police and MI5 can suspect that they have been in Syria or Iraq all they like, but without any proof that they've actually been there, then what are the reason's why they'd be denied entry back into the UK, if indeed you can deny entry to a UK citizen in the first place, but even if you could deny entry, where do you send them back to?

They have probably flown from Turkey, so it would be back to Turkey, but the Turks would only point out that they are a British Citizen with a British Passport so nothing to do with Turkey, they are Britain's problem and send them straight back again.

Incarcerate them, lock them up, on what charge? Suspicion of travelling to a country which you can't prove they have ever been to. Any half decent lawyer would have them back on the streets within the hour.

 

If it was as easy to deport them or stop them getting back in, then doesn't folks think we would have done that already, but unfortunately it's not as simple as that.

 

What the answer is, search me, I've said it before I don't know.

 

The United Kingdom handing out passports over the decades to anyone and everyone would always come back and bite this country's bum. 

 

This guys parents flee Lybia because of a tyrant, who of course was at one time seen as a "friend of the west", then we turn against "our friend" and all hell let's loose.  Then we hand out passports to certain refugees who in turn have children who will not all believe in the same values as their adopted country or are drawn back to their country of birth and that history or to other extreme faiths.  

 

We have created a circle of absolute mayhem that has spiralled out of control.  And guess what the common demonators are in all of this?   Politicians.  They started the wars, they control the UK borders, they dance around the complexities they have now created and so on.  But what they cannot do is solve the problems, well not until they start to take some drastic actions.  They went to war quick enough so why not introduce changes to the passport system as fast? 

 

No wonder they want the people to hold vigils, to grief in mass numbers, the TV to run reports until the cows come home and next no doubt will be the memorials.  Everything like that deflects from them. 

 

So as you say if people hold UK passports then other countries don't want them back especially if it then becomes their problem, better stall and send them to their new "home".  The UK are a soft touch and they know it.

[Guest]

Not much point in a threat level if you raise it after an attack

Unfortunately, it appears, another attack is imminent. Therefore, it's in relation to that.

 

I personally, don't think these attacks are 'lone wolf' attacks. Whilst, the attack may have been carried out by individual I always think they are part of a wider cell/group due to logistics of these things. IMO these cells/groups tend to have more than one line up to happen in quick successsion for maximum effect and to increase their chances of an attack being successful.

[Rab87]

Not much point in a threat level if you raise it after an attack

What a stupid comment to make...

 

So we just sit back and wait for the next one yeah?

 

Seriously, think before you post.

[jack D and coke]

I get the impression, hopefully wrongly, that they (Gov/security services) are expecting something tomorrow or days ahead...sad times, even just going through Waverley this morning on way to work was odd with so much police presence.

 

This raising the alert level and talk of military on the streets is alarming but feck them, this is what these cowards want, won't stop me strolling through head held high.

Always freaks me out a bit how much damage they could do at somewhere like waverly. People wandering in and out unchecked all day every day with bags and rucksacks etc. Wonder why these soft targets aren't exploited.

[Peebo]

Not much point in a threat level if you raise it after an attack

Why?

[Adam Murray]

Not really a fan of his, but Morrissey's view isn't far off the money

 

 

Morrissey Official

12 hours ago

Celebrating my birthday in Manchester as news of the Manchester Arena bomb broke. The anger is monumental. 
 For what reason will this ever stop?

Theresa May says such attacks "will not break us", but her own life is lived in a bullet-proof bubble, and she evidently does not need to identify any young people today in Manchester morgues. Also, "will not break us" means that the tragedy will not break her, or her policies on immigration. The young people of Manchester are already broken - thanks all the same, Theresa. Sadiq Khan says "London is united with Manchester", but he does not condemn Islamic State - who have claimed responsibility for the bomb. The Queen receives absurd praise for her 'strong words' against the attack, yet she does not cancel today's garden party at Buckingham Palace - for which no criticism is allowed in the Britain of free press. Manchester mayor Andy Burnham says the attack is the work of an "extremist". An extreme what? An extreme rabbit?
In modern Britain everyone seems petrified to officially say what we all say in private. Politicians tell us they are unafraid, but they are never the victims. How easy to be unafraid when one is protected from the line of fire. The people have no such protections.

Morrissey
23 May 2017.

[iantjambo]

Been watching it most of the night as had an early night and woke up early.

 

Utterly harrowing and that woman on GMTV who put an appeal out as she had still not heard from her 15yr old daughter had me in tears.

Olivia Campbell confirmed to be among the dead

[Fxxx the SPFL]

I went to Forrester's next door to St Augustine's. It certainly didn't breed harmony.

 

Before you say anything about me being an "ingrained" bigot, my mother's school was St Tams.

 

Not sure how you're managing to miss Rudy's point... spectacularly.

i think the fact that the schools were as close together was probably more of an issue, I went to Tynie late sixties and we were always scrapping with Boroughmuir pupils purely on the grounds of them being intellectually superior (most probably were) in fact i remember one time half of Tynie marched up to Viewforth for a bit of a scrappy do square go, i was in the middle and i think if my memory serves me right it was a bit of a damp squib handbags at best.

[Maroon Sailor]

Not really a fan of his, but Morrissey's view isn't far off the money

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Morrissey Official

12 hours ago

 

 

 

 

 

 

Celebrating my birthday in Manchester as news of the Manchester Arena bomb broke. The anger is monumental. 

 For what reason will this ever stop?

Theresa May says such attacks "will not break us", but her own life is lived in a bullet-proof bubble, and she evidently does not need to identify any young people today in Manchester morgues. Also, "will not break us" means that the tragedy will not break her, or her policies on immigration. The young people of Manchester are already broken - thanks all the same, Theresa. Sadiq Khan says "London is united with Manchester", but he does not condemn Islamic State - who have claimed responsibility for the bomb. The Queen receives absurd praise for her 'strong words' against the attack, yet she does not cancel today's garden party at Buckingham Palace - for which no criticism is allowed in the Britain of free press. Manchester mayor Andy Burnham says the attack is the work of an "extremist". An extreme what? An extreme rabbit?

In modern Britain everyone seems petrified to officially say what we all say in private. Politicians tell us they are unafraid, but they are never the victims. How easy to be unafraid when one is protected from the line of fire. The people have no such protections.

 

Morrissey

23 May 2017.

 

 

I agree with him and was pretty much saying the same myself yesterday

 

Alright these people telling the world we won't be broken. The families of the victims are broken and will never be fixed.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Why?

"An attack is imminent."

 

No kidding. There was one on Monday night.

[Peebo]

"An attack is imminent."

 

No kidding. There was one on Monday night.

The threat level is based on the likelihood of something happening. If something happened in the past, it isn't imminent. It has happened.

 

Perfectly understandable that information relating to something that has happened might affect assessment of the likelihood of a related event happening.

[Taffin]

What a stupid comment to make...

 

So we just sit back and wait for the next one yeah?

 

Seriously, think before you post.

I don't think that's what he was saying.

 

Given what the varying levels mean I can see his point. Either there is a risk of imminent attack, in which case it should have been critical before this attack or they have changed it due to this attack and the intelligence it brought which brings into question their intelligence to begin with and the validity of the risk ratings altogether.

[glynnlondon]

Think it may be because they think the rest of the suspected cell is out there at the moment ready to strike again.

[Homme]

The whole 'will not break us' thing - I can actually see we are beginning to be worn down, very slowly.

 

Good words for a change from Morrisey.

[Sten Guns]

At what point do we stop doing nothing and actually take action?

 

I don't know what the required action is. But I do know candlelit vigils and hashtags aren't the answer. The longer we avoid adult conversation on the topic, the more likely a dangerous knee jerk breaking point is.

 

The left need to understand that shouting Racist, Sexist, Islamaphobic and Homophobic isn't an argument. They appear to have learnt nothing from Brexit and Trump.

 

We all need to come together and meet somewhere in the middle and have a proper discussion. This simply cannot go on.

[JJ1984]

We're continually threatened with contributing to the jihadi's plight if we react the wrong way. Future terrorists and future attacks will multiply if we don't hold a vigil and paint our placards with slogans of love, peace and solidarity. Well guess what? They're multiplying regardless of the way the society they're trying to destroy reacts. Something's got to give.

 

Relying on their community to sort it from the inside is futile. Relying on their community to tolerate our values and way of life, fruitless. Relying on their community to breed tolerance of other faiths and the infidel and to teach their children, women are equal to men, homosexuality isn't a crime punishable by death and strapping explosives round your waist ending the lives of innocent children won't send you to Jannah surrounded by virgins.

 

Do we just stand by and wait on the next atrocity or do we start to tackle the problem head on? Root and branch.

Very well said.

[Say What Again]

At what point do we stop doing nothing and actually take action?

 

I don't know what the required action is. But I do know candlelit vigils and hashtags aren't the answer. The longer we avoid adult conversation on the topic, the more likely a dangerous knee jerk breaking point is.

 

The left need to understand that shouting Racist, Sexist, Islamaphobic and Homophobic isn't an argument. They appear to have learnt nothing from Brexit and Trump.

 

We all need to come together and meet somewhere in the middle and have a proper discussion. This simply cannot go on.

 

This is pretty much what I tried to say around page 4, which I edited to 'in fact scrap that' as I don't have the answers nor the vocabulary to defend myself against questions about 'so what would I do about it?' etc.

 

My initial reply was to Cade's education is the way forward post. It certainly wasn't a pop at Cade, I was merely saying that education simply does not appear to be working. Or you could say it is. Extremist education.

 

Another couple of attacks like this and the arm around the shoulder, give peace a chance voices will be drowned out by enough is enough, it's time for a new hard approach. What that will be I dread to think, but the "it's not Islam's fault" etc rhetoric isn't cutting the mustard. Of course it isn't ******* every Muslims fault. Of course 99% of muslims are decent human beings - just like any other religion - but meanwhile kids are still being blown up on our doorstep.

 

I don't know how to stop it, but I absolutely know that the softly softly approach certainly isn't stopping it. Worrying times ahead - and not just for the terror threat - but for the direction the country will inevitably head to stop terror. 

 

EDIT: In fact simply reading the replies to this thread is an indicator of how the tide is turning. A year or two back this thread would read far more 'kid gloves'

[Adam Murray]

French interior minister saying that both British and French intelligence had information that the bomber had been to Syria, and had 'proven' links with Islamic State.

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/manchester-bomber-travelled-to-syria-and-had-is-links-french-minister-says-1-7975485

[Say What Again]

French interior minister saying that both British and French intelligence had information that the bomber had been to Syria, and had 'proven' links with Islamic State.

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/manchester-bomber-travelled-to-syria-and-had-is-links-french-minister-says-1-7975485

 

See I'd now rather the government 'disappeared' that boy as soon as they learned that intelligence. 

[Pans Jambo]

French interior minister saying that both British and French intelligence had information that the bomber had been to Syria, and had 'proven' links with Islamic State.

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/manchester-bomber-travelled-to-syria-and-had-is-links-french-minister-says-1-7975485

I said as much yesterday. Guaranteed he was known. & now hes been on a Daesh training holiday and it appears like the UK government did nothing about it. If thats the case then they are complicit in his actions on Monday evening. Disgrace if true.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I don't think that's what he was saying.

 

Given what the varying levels mean I can see his point. Either there is a risk of imminent attack, in which case it should have been critical before this attack or they have changed it due to this attack and the intelligence it brought which brings into question their intelligence to begin with and the validity of the risk ratings altogether.

Correct.

 

The point of intelligence is to pre-empt these things. I understand that it's not easy to do so but saying to people that an attack could be imminent the day after an attack it stating the obvious somewhat

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Correct.

 

The point of intelligence is to pre-empt these things. I understand that it's not easy to do so but saying to people that an attack could be imminent the day after an attack it stating the obvious somewhat

 

I think they mean that 'another attack could be imminent', that's the way I'm reading it.

[frankblack]

It does seem that all the scum that has travelled to Syria and similar places should be kept in internment camps indefinitely without trial.  We can't continue to allow these scumbags to hide among us.

 

Post Brexit we will have the powers to enforce this.

[pablo]

Correct.

 

The point of intelligence is to pre-empt these things. I understand that it's not easy to do so but saying to people that an attack could be imminent the day after an attack it stating the obvious somewhat

 

Is it not just that the security services have realised that it doesn't look like the work of a "lone wolf"?    They will be considering the possibility of a number of sophisticated bombs having been pre made and positioned around the country waiting to used. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I think they mean that 'another attack could be imminent', that's the way I'm reading it.

That is what they're saying but tbh, I could tell you that on the basis that 20-odd people were killed by a bomber on Monday night.

[Rudy T]

I think they mean that 'another attack could be imminent', that's the way I'm reading it.

I always think that while clearly lunatics not of sound mind these arseholes know the system and wait until the threat level is relaxed slightly before they strike. Of course they change tactics frequently so the may strike again to create more fear but I'm not sure there's a history of a 2nd attack so soon after the first. Reading between the lines this doesn't appear to be a lone wolf which begs more questions about how this happened.

[Sten Guns]

What a ******* car crash of a post.

You need to have a word with yourself

Guys, this isn't helping. What sort of reply is that to give?

 

Engage with the point made. Argue against it. Explain why you don't agree.

[Adam Murray]

I said as much yesterday. Guaranteed he was known. & now hes been on a Daesh training holiday and it appears like the UK government did nothing about it. If thats the case then they are complicit in his actions on Monday evening. Disgrace if true.

 

 

With that in mind, and with comments on this thread about 'shoot-to-kill', would you be happy if the 200 or so known extremists who have been to training camps (not sure if that is the actual number), or the people who are taking so much time and resources from our intelligence services with round the clock surveillance, would you be happy if they were to 'disappear', or to befall some kind of 'nasty accident?'

 

I know some people would think that it would be some kind of recruiting drive for isis, to start fighting fire with fire, terror with even more extreme terror, and that it shouldn't be the done thing in a civil and just society, but when the very things you hold dear, that you take for granted, like a trip to a concert or theatre, are under threat, the lives of your children and loved ones are under threat, you can't just keep going through the same cycle as before, because it isn't working.

 

And, if you were some kind of potential jihadi, would you perhaps not think twice about accessing those extremist sites, planning trips to known terror camps, if the people you knew who were also doing these things were suddenly dissapearing?