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Iain Cathro ongoing Poll and discussion Thread


cylawny

Cathro Poll  

1,521 members have voted

  1. 1. Cathro stay or go



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I also think the Budge statement has shored up Cathro and Levein. That's fine. I accept they'll be here next season but we shouldn't need emergency surgery in January 2018 for it to be successful.

There is real concern that if we continue with this Dictator of Football and his flawed novice head coach, then we may well be in an emergency league position by Jan 18!!

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Geoff Kilpatrick

There is real concern that if we continue with this Dictator of Football and his flawed novice head coach, then we may well be in an emergency league position by Jan 18!!

Yep. I fail to see where we are conjuring this magic turnaround from.
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I get people who point out that many successful coaches started off slowly. For those who follow the NFL, Bill Belichick, architect of the Patriots dynasty, had one winning season in five when he coached the Cleveland Browns before they fired him.

 

But at some point you have to see some flicker of ability to respond to adversity. It just seems like Cathro is desperate and trying anything right now.

Disagree on him desperately trying anything. In fact one fair criticism is he's sticking too doggedly to getting us to play the high pressing, possession game he likes, when just keeping it simple might be better in this situation.

 

The fact he's doing that suggests he has the full backing of levein who wants him to have time to show he can turn things around. If he started playing 4-4-2 and lumping it up that would be desperation.

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waynefozzie

There is real concern that if we continue with this Dictator of Football and his flawed novice head coach, then we may well be in an emergency league position by Jan 18!!

Do you type with your scrotum?

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Do you type with your scrotum?

No, but you obviously think with yours!

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Apart from Celtic. Which other team in the league has put more than 3 goals past Sevco?

 

I don't believe in sacking any football manager after six months.

 

I will put my money where my mouth is. I will bet you ?100 that Hearts with Cathro in charge next season will come nowhere near getting relegated. Are you up for it?

I wouldn't say near relegation but I would be surprised if we are top 5 or even 6. The vermin are back up and there's another team to contend with on top of others.

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:laugh:

 

Through all that invective, I'm glad you agree with me that Levein has made mistakes. The biggest one being Cathro.

Well you did not last long off your hobby horse.

I did not say Levein had made mistakes.  You read my reply out of context.  I was responding to your predictable assertion that Levein will have made a mistake by October which I previously said would be a reasonable to judge Cathro.

Even if that does become a mistake I wondered if you'd ever made one.  If you had you almost certainly wouldn't admit to it.

PS - Keep rattling on about Levein and you'll be the first poster to reach 100,000 posts.

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Well you did not last long off your hobby horse.

I did not say Levein had made mistakes. You read my reply out of context. I was responding to your predictable assertion that Levein will have made a mistake by October which I previously said would be a reasonable to judge Cathro.

Even if that does become a mistake I wondered if you'd ever made one. If you had you almost certainly wouldn't admit to it.

PS - Keep rattling on about Levein and you'll be the first poster to reach 100,000 posts.

Frankly I'm not interested if Geoff has made a mistake - it has absolutely no relevance to HMFC whatsoever!

 

The shambles LEVEIN is lording over IS however of massive interest to me and other Hearts fans.

 

You keep up your loyal defence of Levein - think you could beat Geoff to that 100,000 milestone!

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Nookie Bear

Which, if it transpires like that, is also an indictment on our ?150k a year DoF. The whole point of the role was to ensure continuity, preventing the need for squad revamping. Instead we will have two windows and two revamps. Awesome stuff!

Cathro going means Levein going too, IMO.

Spot on.

 

It's Levein who should be sweating the most this summer.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Well you did not last long off your hobby horse.

I did not say Levein had made mistakes. You read my reply out of context. I was responding to your predictable assertion that Levein will have made a mistake by October which I previously said would be a reasonable to judge Cathro.

Even if that does become a mistake I wondered if you'd ever made one. If you had you almost certainly wouldn't admit to it.

PS - Keep rattling on about Levein and you'll be the first poster to reach 100,000 posts.

I like how you have to resort to abuse. It shows you are struggling to make an argument. Levein doesn't need to make more mistakes. This model was his brainchild and Cathro its star pupil. If it transpires the model is actually a shit concept, which is looking likely, then he should go.

 

PS One mistake I definitely made was thinking you were a decent bloke.

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Was expecting most folk to want shot of him after reading all the negative comments on here and on FB.

 

The silent majority has spoken :biggrin:

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Was expecting most folk to want shot of him after reading all the negative comments on here and on FB.

 

The silent majority has spoken :biggrin:

 

 

Aye, cos 1/25th of the number of our season ticket holders or around 3% of the number of our normal home support is a guaranteed to reflect the view!

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Bowmans_Boot

I voted to stay because:

 

- I still believe in him. I loved his interviews when he first came, his enthusiasm, passion, ideas etc etc and I still believe he can be a hugely successful manager for us.

 

- Yes, the signings in January have mainly proven to be failures, BUT we lost Callum Paterson, who was hugely influential to the team up until then. Despite Souttar being slated at times, he was also influential and showing sigbs of being a quality player.

 

- If we sign one (or two) winners in the summer then, for me, that will completely transform the team. We lack someone who drives the team forward, who fights when things arent going our way and who encourages the others to follow. Callum did this previously, but this type of player in midfield was sorely lacking for years.

Get this right and it is crucial.

 

- Get rid of him and get who in? Alex Neil is an appealing prospect, yes, but is still a risk (eg Tommy McLean). I would rather stick with, and support the risk of Cathro rather than an unknown one.

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I voted to stay because:

 

- I still believe in him. I loved his interviews when he first came, his enthusiasm, passion, ideas etc etc and I still believe he can be a hugely successful manager for us.

 

- Yes, the signings in January have mainly proven to be failures, BUT we lost Callum Paterson, who was hugely influential to the team up until then. Despite Souttar being slated at times, he was also influential and showing sigbs of being a quality player.

 

- If we sign one (or two) winners in the summer then, for me, that will completely transform the team. We lack someone who drives the team forward, who fights when things arent going our way and who encourages the others to follow. Callum did this previously, but this type of player in midfield was sorely lacking for years.

Get this right and it is crucial.

 

- Get rid of him and get who in? Alex Neil is an appealing prospect, yes, but is still a risk (eg Tommy McLean). I would rather stick with, and support the risk of Cathro rather than an unknown one.

 

You are comparing Alex Neil to Tommy McLean????

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I agree, but tbh to write a new, young coach off after 3 months and one limited) transfer window also makes no sense.

 

If you are using a reasonable, logical approach to discuss Wright, then follow the same approach with Cathro.

But he has taken a club from 2nd to 5th and a 5th that could end up 6th if things continue to deteriorate.

 

What concerns me is the players look confused and with the exception of Cowie, Walker and maybe one or two others utterly abject. No fight or belief.

 

That to me suggests our Head Coach is not getting his players up for games. Then you look at things like 3-2 against Dundee, the draw last night and some other unacceptable performances and you do start to question the direction we are heading in.

 

If we had appointed someone else, a Hartley/Pressley/Archibald/Wright, we'd see a lot more of a uniform skepticism over what is going on in the dugout and at board level. But as it's Levein (who I respect for his history with the club) who has appointed an exciting and hyped up coach I think there's an element of blind faith in this.

 

I think if Levein/Cathro have a bad summer and sign as poorly as we did in January and have a poor start then we will be writing off next season as well as this one because we will be appointing a new manager or head coach and again reshuffling in January.

 

If we finish 5th or 6th Cathro should go in my view.

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Bowmans_Boot

You are comparing Alex Neil to Tommy McLean????

I am saying that Alex Neil would also be a risk, like any new manager.

 

Tommy McLean overachieved at a lesser club and was an absolute, total, complete disaster for us. Hence I mentioned him.

 

Maybe Alex Neil would be great for us, maybe not: that is my point, there are no guarantees and I would rather stick with the "risk" that we have at present: Cathro.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

I am saying that Alex Neil would also be a risk, like any new manager.

 

Tommy McLean overachieved at a lesser club and was an absolute, total, complete disaster for us. Hence I mentioned him.

 

Maybe Alex Neil would be great for us, maybe not: that is my point, there are no guarantees and I would rather stick with the "risk" that we have at present: Cathro.

Jim Jefferies overachieved with a lesser club before he came to us. Ian Cathro neither overachieved nor underachieved elsewhere. What's the bigger risk?

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Exactly!

 

Those who dismiss the possibility that a Tommy Wright like figure would not adapt his approach and the way his team setup and played if moving from a St Johnstone to a Hearts are beyond stupid. He is achieving what he is at a tiny football club in comparison to Hearts. His methodology in terms of how he motivates and builds a side may not change but there is every reason to believe with better players given a vastly increased budget he would get the same effort levels and consistency out of his squad but demand more attractive football. With the increase in quality and playing in front of much bigger home crowds etc then he may well thrive. He is just an example of what might happen with a hungry coach who is excelling but reached a ceiling at a small club. Jim Jefferies had Falkirk batting above their average time and again, he came to Hearts and kept much of his footballing ethos but was able to build a superb Hearts side with the opportunities, budget and facilities available to him in comparison to at Brockville. Dismissing someone like Wright who is doing a fantastic job at St Johnstone makes no sense whatsoever given what we are witnessing in our own dugout and on the pitch.

:spoton:

 

Next "big Scottish" job outwith Celtic he stands a strong chance of getting. Aberdeen, Hibs, Rangers (with any sense) and maybe a promoted Dundee United will all be after him.

 

If we finish below his team this year I'd be willing to give him the job.

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Bowmans_Boot

Jim Jefferies overachieved with a lesser club before he came to us. Ian Cathro neither overachieved nor underachieved elsewhere. What's the bigger risk?

I like and rate Cathro for the reasons I have already given. Hence I would prefer to stick with him.

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Jim Jefferies overachieved with a lesser club before he came to us. Ian Cathro neither overachieved nor underachieved elsewhere. What's the bigger risk?

 

Every manager should come with the classic financial warning of "Past performance is no guarantee of future results".

 

Anyone who's watched football for any length of time knows that hiring a manager is a bit of a lottery. To your second sentence there, Alex MacDonald had zero management or even much coaching experience. There is no magic formula for choosing a manager. Hearts are trying something different and it's got as much chance of working as hiring some guy who's had 2 good seasons with a smaller club. Most recent hearts related proof: Neilson did better than Wright in his first job with a similar budget.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Every manager should come with the classic financial warning of "Past performance is no guarantee of future results".

 

Anyone who's watched football for any length of time knows that hiring a manager is a bit of a lottery. To your second sentence there, Alex MacDonald had zero management or even much coaching experience. There is no magic formula for choosing a manager. Hearts are trying something different and it's got as much chance of working as hiring some guy who's had 2 good seasons with a smaller club. Most recent hearts related proof: Neilson did better than Wright in his first job with a similar budget.

 

:rofl:

 

As Tommy Wright points to the cup he's won!

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kingantti1874

I like and rate Cathro for the reasons I have already given. Hence I would prefer to stick with him.

Honestly I don't get it... every new appointment is a risk, but the Cathro risk has materialised into a fully fledged issue. I don't know how it can get any worse than having the poorest record of any full time manager in our history. His record is brutal.. I enjoyed his initial enthusiasm also but it soon wore away when the outcome on the pitch was almost the exact opposite to what he said.. I can accept Losing, constantly rolling over, spineless.. no.. it's bullshit.. guys an imposter.

 

Ps - don't forget Alex Neil has also managed and did reasonably well at a bigger club than HMFC in a bigger league than the SPL.

 

Anyway we are all entitled to our opinion.. won't be too long till this one flips..

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Bazzas right boot

:rofl:

 

As Tommy Wright points to the cup he's won!

I'll take a punt and say Robbie's first two seasons as head coach were more successful than Wright's.

 

What year in mgt did wright win the cup.

 

Edit. He's been managing for 15 years, taken 13 to win the cup.

Good achievement as it is, Stubbs also won the sc as have many good and poor managers.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

I'll take a punt and say Robbie's first two seasons as head coach were more successful than Wright's.

 

What year in mgt did wright win the cup.

Where are you starting his career from?

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Bowmans_Boot

Honestly I don't get it... every new appointment is a risk, but the Cathro risk has materialised into a fully fledged issue. I don't know how it can get any worse than having the poorest record of any full time manager in our history. His record is brutal.. I enjoyed his initial enthusiasm also but it soon wore away when the outcome on the pitch was almost the exact opposite to what he said.. I can accept Losing, constantly rolling over, spineless.. no.. it's bullshit.. guys an imposter.

 

Ps - don't forget Alex Neil has also managed and did reasonably well at a bigger club than HMFC in a bigger league than the SPL.

 

Anyway we are all entitled to our opinion.. won't be too long till this one flips..

I want to give him the summer to get his (real) guys in and then totally judge him. Losing Paterson, Souttar and Rossi (why, exactly?) and then having to sign numerous players on short term contracts isnt giving him a fair chance.

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Bazzas right boot

Where are you starting his career from?

Management.

 

I like Wright, tbh he's the only credible alternative to have been mentioned.

 

But he's not our manager, Cathro is.

 

Until that changes I'll get behind Cathro rather than everyone else.

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Frankly I'm not interested if Geoff has made a mistake - it has absolutely no relevance to HMFC whatsoever!

 

The shambles LEVEIN is lording over IS however of massive interest to me and other Hearts fans.

 

You keep up your loyal defence of Levein - think you could beat Geoff to that 100,000 milestone!

I couldn't care less what you are interested in!

It's not my intention to defend him or not.  What I'm trying to put across is that Cathro should get a fair chance.  Even with Sir A F's previous managerial experience it took him (was it) 3 seasons to sort out Man U and was on the verge of the sack.  With hindsight they would have thrown the baby out with the bath water.  We should be careful not to do the same.

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Bazzas right boot

Where are you starting his career from?

He's won 2 cups, Irish lc in 2011 and SC in 2013.

 

Taken him 8 years in mgt for his first cup.

 

Just for perspective when comparing wright to Cathro and Robbie.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Management.

 

I like Wright, tbh he's the only credible alternative to have been mentioned.

 

But he's not our manager, Cathro is.

 

Until that changes I'll get behind Cathro rather than everyone else.

 

Wright's first job was at Limavady in what was then the 2nd tier of the Irish League. A couple of seasons there and he moved onto Ballymena United, keeping Ballymena in the top flight and establishing us in mid-table after the yo-yo years. He then went to Distillery where he won the League Cup in 2011. Distillery are now floundering in the 3rd tier of Irish football since he left.

 

He took over at St Johnstone in 2013 and won the cup in his second season.

 

You judge what's better.

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I want to give him the summer to get his (real) guys in and then totally judge him. Losing Paterson, Souttar and Rossi (why, exactly?) and then having to sign numerous players on short term contracts isnt giving him a fair chance.

Paterson will be away. Along with 7 or 8 of his 9 signings. Some others will go (Kitchen, Sam and Djoum imo) leaving a rump of Soutter, Hamilton, Cowie, Walker, Johnsen, Isma, Bauben and a few others.

 

Do you have much faith in his ability to build a team?

 

As based on our recent signings under this DoF and our Head Coach's way of setting hia teams up I don't.

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I like how you have to resort to abuse. It shows you are struggling to make an argument. Levein doesn't need to make more mistakes. This model was his brainchild and Cathro its star pupil. If it transpires the model is actually a shit concept, which is looking likely, then he should go.

 

PS One mistake I definitely made was thinking you were a decent bloke.

And if it transpires that it is not a shit concept you will praise CL to the high heavens?

 

PS - Is that not abuse, something you just accused me of?  Oh dear.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

I couldn't care less what you are interested in!

It's not my intention to defend him or not.  What I'm trying to put across is that Cathro should get a fair chance.  Even with Sir A F's previous managerial experience it took him (was it) 3 seasons to sort out Man U and was on the verge of the sack.  With hindsight they would have thrown the baby out with the bath water.  We should be careful not to do the same.

So if those of us who think Cathro isn't good enough aren't giving him enough time, what do you think enough time actually is? The Ferguson comparison is an awful one as in his first full season, United finished 2nd, something they hadn't done for twenty years.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

And if it transpires that it is not a shit concept you will praise CL to the high heavens?

 

PS - Is that not abuse, something you just accused me of?  Oh dear.

Yes, I will happily admit I was wrong. Some of us can actually say that when they do get things wrong. Maybe you should take note of that too?

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He's won 2 cups, Irish lc in 2011 and SC in 2013.

 

Taken him 8 years in mgt for his first cup.

 

Just for perspective when comparing wright to Cathro and Robbie.

Robbie had a much bigger budget in the Championship than Wright could ever hope for with Saint Johnstone in tbe premier league.

 

Yet on that he has been at the club (I think) for 6 consecutive top 6 finishes in various roles. Has won a Scottish Cup and has built competitive sides pushing up the league.

 

Robbie won a championship then solidified third unconvincingly on a much higher budget.

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Bazzas right boot

Wright's first job was at Limavady in what was then the 2nd tier of the Irish League. A couple of seasons there and he moved onto Ballymena United, keeping Ballymena in the top flight and establishing us in mid-table after the yo-yo years. He then went to Distillery where he won the League Cup in 2011. Distillery are now floundering in the 3rd tier of Irish football since he left.

 

He took over at St Johnstone in 2013 and won the cup in his second season.

 

You judge what's better.

Robbie rebuilt got us promoted over rangers and hibs.

Then finished 3rd in Scotland top tier.

He is now managing in England.

 

Tbh, Robbie wins hands down the first three seasons.

The future, who knows and tbh who cares unless he's back here.

You a bellymena fan?

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Robbie rebuilt got us promoted over rangers and hibs.

Then finished 3rd in Scotland top tier.

He is now managing in England.

 

Tbh, Robbie wins hands down the first three seasons.

The future, who knows and tbh who cares unless he's back here.

You a ballymena fan?

I am indeed.

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Bazzas right boot

Robbie had a much bigger budget in the Championship than Wright could ever hope for with Saint Johnstone in tbe premier league.

 

Yet on that he has been at the club (I think) for 6 consecutive top 6 finishes in various roles. Has won a Scottish Cup and has built competitive sides pushing up the league.

 

Robbie won a championship then solidified third unconvincingly on a much higher budget.

Discussing first two seasons. Taken wright about 9 years to do what you said.

Robbie has only managed for what is now a third season.

Nb

Robbie had a smaller budget than rangers and i think even hibs.

We were also comfortably third and comfortably above St Johnstone under Robbie, hardly big news, but your post is a bit inaccurate.

 

Comparing like for like, first two/ three seasons.

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Yes, I will happily admit I was wrong. Some of us can actually say that when they do get things wrong. Maybe you should take note of that too?

Good.  There's a first time for everything.

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Discussing first two seasons. Taken wright about 9 years to do what you said.

Robbie has only managed for what is now a third season.

 

Comparing like for like.

At a club with a bigger budget though. It's hard to compare that like for like. Robbie probably has a bigger budget still than he did at Hearts now! So you can't compare like for like.

 

Like for like though:

 

Wright has done wonders at the Perth Farmers. He makes Danny Swanson a player. Has a small but determined squad and has two decent left backs.

 

We can't find a left back to save ourselves, leak at the back and had Swanson looking mediocre.

 

Like for like, Wright has done better there.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Good.  There's a first time for everything.

:laugh:

 

Classic Penman in action.

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Bazzas right boot

So if those of us who think Cathro isn't good enough aren't giving him enough time, what do you think enough time actually is? The Ferguson comparison is an awful one as in his first full season, United finished 2nd, something they hadn't done for twenty years.

He needs a good start.

 

No **** ups in the LC.

A strong first round of games.

 

Team playing well and scoring.

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I couldn't care less what you are interested in!

It's not my intention to defend him or not. What I'm trying to put across is that Cathro should get a fair chance. Even with Sir A F's previous managerial experience it took him (was it) 3 seasons to sort out Man U and was on the verge of the sack. With hindsight they would have thrown the baby out with the bath water. We should be careful not to do the same.

Cathro....the new Fergie......

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Exactly!

 

Those who dismiss the possibility that a Tommy Wright like figure would not adapt his approach and the way his team setup and played if moving from a St Johnstone to a Hearts are beyond stupid. He is achieving what he is at a tiny football club in comparison to Hearts. His methodology in terms of how he motivates and builds a side may not change but there is every reason to believe with better players given a vastly increased budget he would get the same effort levels and consistency out of his squad but demand more attractive football. With the increase in quality and playing in front of much bigger home crowds etc then he may well thrive. He is just an example of what might happen with a hungry coach who is excelling but reached a ceiling at a small club. Jim Jefferies had Falkirk batting above their average time and again, he came to Hearts and kept much of his footballing ethos but was able to build a superb Hearts side with the opportunities, budget and facilities available to him in comparison to at Brockville. Dismissing someone like Wright who is doing a fantastic job at St Johnstone makes no sense whatsoever given what we are witnessing in our own dugout and on the pitch.

Fantastic post mate...

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I want to give him the summer to get his (real) guys in and then totally judge him. Losing Paterson, Souttar and Rossi (why, exactly?) and then having to sign numerous players on short term contracts isnt giving him a fair chance.

I think this is extremely fair. We lost three of our back four, one of whom was our top scorer. People were very vocal about poor performances under Neilson and it seems Paterson's goals were papering over cracks. Whilst Cathro's record is worse than Neilson's this season, I think too many people are deciding that correlation is the sole causation in this case when there are other factors to consider. The only player we know that the management team had a strong hand in bringing in was Goncalves who has been a success.

 

There's little point in bringing in an inexperienced but highly rated coach if you're not going to give him time to make mistakes, learn and progress. Not everyone would agree with that as a philosophy for the club but it's the route we have taken. Personally, I like to see something different than tried and tested mediocre managers.

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Maroon Sailor

It's pointless suggesting candidates to be Hearts manager unless you know the individual gets on well with Levein and is prepared to let him micro manage.

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After The Watershed

How much are we going to continue to spend on the development of Cathro. At a time when we're pledging to FOH, going to pay more for season tickets and going to donate to the new stand fund how is it acceptable that thousands have been wasted on the team thus far?

 

I keep seeing posts saying "give him the summer window" or "it'll be a different team next season". How much will this all cost? Did we even need all the players he took in? Would Smith, Zanatta and Beith have done any worse than the players he took in? We keep getting told we need to develop young players yet we've held back these three. Maybe if we'd spent more on a couple of good centre backs instead we might have been doing a bit better.

 

The deterioration of some players concerns me as well. Was Johnsen not player of the month in November? Kitchen, Djoum, Hamilton, Nicholson all looking worse than they did.

 

It'll cost to sack him, it'll cost to keep him. Think the club need to seriously consider his position at the end of the season. Anne says we budgeted for fourth. More money lost if we don't get it? If it was up to me I'd get rid. Not seen enough signs of improvement.

 

I know he won't go so I hope I'm proved wrong.

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