Indy Ref Part Deux

[AlphonseCapone]

The rumour is that the next thing is the merger of health boards

And its a strong rumour

I can't go into details on here but if this was even close to being true I'd have heard at least a whisper of it and I haven't.

[doctor jambo]

I can't go into details on here but if this was even close to being true I'd have heard at least a whisper of it and I haven't.

It was a whisper a year ago, its louder now

three health boards

Glasgow, Ayrshire=1

Lothians+ Borders+ D&G=2

Tayside + Grampian+ H&I = 3

 

Telling you boss, its coming.......

[The Don]

Stored near Glasgow like?

 

We can argue about disarming other nations later but lets get rid of ours first!

So you don't care about the nuclear weapons really just as long as they aren't in Scotland. Very self centered attitude very much like the Indy at all cost attitude.

 

It was/is just another stick to wave at the big bad English as an argument for Indy

 

 

 

 

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[The Don]

We export ?50bn to the rest of the U.K. (Not including oil and gas) Compared to just ?12bn in EU and other countries. We leave the U.K. And remain in EU then our trade with the U.K. Will then be subject to EU tariffs and limits just as any other EU country is subject to these restrictions.

 

We'll be hit with a massive multi billion ? bill for leaving the U.K., immediately plunging the country into a massive unsustainable deficit. Remember we don't have anywhere near the oil reserves Salmond promised.

 

Why leave one dictator to be dictated to by another ? That's not independence. Sometimes it's better the devil you know.

 

Do we want an open door policy on immigration? We can't even support the people living in Scotland now how the feck we going to support thousands More arriving? Where will the money come from to support people? For housing? Health, education.

 

We don't even know if we'll be granted EU access, Spain are opposed right away because of the Catalonia issue. Other countries are concerned because they too have their own possible independence issues. Will a deal even if we were accepted by all member countries be a good deal for us ? We'll be accepting what we're told basically, whereas at least the U.K. Being one of the founder EU members was at the top table in terms of deals and negotiations, Scotland will be at the bottom.

 

Nope today's announcement by NS was very opportunistic and could be potentially very damaging to the countries economy. Remember the politicians get their expenses they get paid no matter what the everyday person are the ones that's going to suffer. The Euro is plummeting and instead of working with the U.K. Government t and industry to steady the economy we have a self interested first minister hell bent on Indy at any cost quite happy create more division and uncertainty. Just what we need.

 

Add to that another two years of divisive, heated, bigoted hatred. Some people won't be happy will were another Northern Ireland of the 70's and 80's at the height of the troubles.

 

 

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[XB52]

Can't say I'm looking forward to the next 18 months or so on here as the loonies on both sides fill their boots. I hope that enough people don't want to be run by an increasingly right-wing Tory giovernment and decide to vote YES but I can't say I would bet my house on it. One big item on the project fear agenda, that we would be kicked out of the EU has, of course, gone now, but I'm sure they will come out with loads more. I am sure there will also be the calls to have every single detail of what will happen after Independence signed in triplicate; despite the EU referendum being held with absolutely no information at all. I think one thing the SNP got wrong the last time was issuing the 'white paper', as it tried to cover absolutely everything.   

[Beast Boy]

I assume folk bandying around the EU immigration costing us money argument are aware that we profited from EU immigration to the tune of 2 billion a year?

[Doogz]

Can't say I'm looking forward to the next 18 months or so on here as the loonies on both sides fill their boots. I hope that enough people don't want to be run by an increasingly right-wing Tory giovernment and decide to vote YES but I can't say I would bet my house on it. One big item on the project fear agenda, that we would be kicked out of the EU has, of course, gone now, but I'm sure they will come out with loads more. I am sure there will also be the calls to have every single detail of what will happen after Independence signed in triplicate; despite the EU referendum being held with absolutely no information at all. I think one thing the SNP got wrong the last time was issuing the 'white paper', as it tried to cover absolutely everything.   

 

It's obviously an important decision - shouldn't we try and learn from the mistakes of Brexit and do all we can to improve the level of detail & standard of debate to allow us all to make an informed choice this time ?

[AlphonseCapone]

It's obviously an important decision - shouldn't we try and learn from the mistakes of Brexit and do all we can to improve the level of detail & standard of debate to allow us all to make an informed choice this time ?

I think there is a balance between what you say above and recognising that not every detail can be known. It's being honest about that fact which is most important imo.

[Doogz]

I think there is a balance between what you say above and recognising that not every detail can be known. It's being honest about that fact which is most important imo.

 

Absolutely - we can't know everything but we should be given as much honest & accurate information as possible - from both sides. I don't want people voting either way based on some lie on the side of a bus.

[Norm]

Aw ****. This is going to be another nightmare 2 years. I think I'll just ignore everything indy until next summer. I was completely fatigued at the end of the last one.

[Bauld]

I haven't got a clue where I stand on this.

 

As a farmer we have relied on the European market for a long time, Since the UK doesn't eat lamb in any serious quantity it all goes straight to France and is distributed all over Europe. The money isn't very good but at the moment it's the only option.

 

On the other side we are so wrapped up in red tape by EU laws and regulations that farming is more paperwork than actual manual labour which is a monumental pain in the ******.

 

But we also rely heavily on the CAP payments from the EU in order to survive as do all sheep farmers in the UK. Should we leave the European union this will be revamped and might mean we get stripped of all or most of the money we need.

 

 

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

[doctor jambo]

I assume folk bandying around the EU immigration costing us money argument are aware that we profited from EU immigration to the tune of 2 billion a year?

It depends how you look at it.

How much would our benefit / welfare bill drop by had these jobs been taken by our "own" people?

[deesidejambo]

Aw ****. This is going to be another nightmare 2 years. I think I'll just ignore everything indy until next summer. I was completely fatigued at the end of the last one.

Dont worry I think May will can it. But as this will lead to more whining by the SNP for years I would prefer if she said go for it. Over to you Theresa.

[Alwayssunnyingorgie]

I voted Yes before and will do so again but I am sick of hearing about it, I prefer salmond to Nicola aswell but she's still a better option than May. I'm not voting yes to be anti English I just think it would be better for Scotland to be able to vote for a government and get what it wants rather than the pointless excersize we go through now.

[Placid Casual]

Aw ****. This is going to be another nightmare 2 years. I think I'll just ignore everything indy until next summer. I was completely fatigued at the end of the last one.

 

My feelings too. Will be very hard to avoid though.

[doctor jambo]

I voted Yes before and will do so again but I am sick of hearing about it, I prefer salmond to Nicola aswell but she's still a better option than May. I'm not voting yes to be anti English I just think it would be better for Scotland to be able to vote for a government and get what it wants rather than the pointless excersize we go through now.

Large chunks of my life we had a labour govt in Westminster that was held up by Scots MP's.......

I have never lived under a Govt in Scottish parliament that I have voted for

[Mikey1874]

Tories taking back devolved powers (farming, fishing), Tory government for the rest of your life, further austerity, embarrassment at your country voting against it's own self-determination (twice).

I think independence has a really good chance of happening

 

Just think this is opportunistic and risks putting back the case for independence for 10 years

 

If its another No vote.

 

If its Yes it risks a terribly divided country.

 

Fix education, health, develop business, show Scotland can use tax powers etc positively to improve things.

 

Then down the line get 60% plus closer to a settled consensus for independence especially if Brexit doesn't bring the benefits its supporters want.

 

Why the rush?

[i8hibsh]

Large chunks of my life we had a labour govt in Westminster that was held up by Scots MP's.......

I have never lived under a Govt in Scottish parliament that I have voted for

 

Natcretins logic 1

 

A vote for Independence does not mean a vote for the SNP

 

Natcretins logic 2

 

A vote to remain means a vote for the Tories

 

 

[Zibi]

The precedent for countries leaving the UK is that they don't take any of the national debt. Scotland could be like Hearts. Debt free with a bright future ahead of us.

[Mikey1874]

Can't say I'm looking forward to the next 18 months or so on here as the loonies on both sides fill their boots. I hope that enough people don't want to be run by an increasingly right-wing Tory giovernment and decide to vote YES but I can't say I would bet my house on it. One big item on the project fear agenda, that we would be kicked out of the EU has, of course, gone now, but I'm sure they will come out with loads more. I am sure there will also be the calls to have every single detail of what will happen after Independence signed in triplicate; despite the EU referendum being held with absolutely no information at all. I think one thing the SNP got wrong the last time was issuing the 'white paper', as it tried to cover absolutely everything.

"We might be poorer (for a while) but we don't care" is the honest approach.

 

To me SNP must have resolved nearly all the big questions including currency, budget pressures to be confident enough to go again.

[doctor jambo]

The precedent for countries leaving the UK is that they don't take any of the national debt. Scotland could be like Hearts. Debt free with a bright future ahead of us.

I don't even know where to begin with this .

We could leave behind OUR national debt?

Could we?

And rUK would not treat that as an effective debt default why?

And would retaliate how?

[doctor jambo]

"We might be poorer (for a while) but we don't care" is the honest approach.

 

To me SNP must have resolved nearly all the big questions including currency, budget pressures to be confident enough to go again.

Or they are relying on Braveheart patriotism to overcome the logic

[AlphonseCapone]

Natcretins logic 1

 

A vote for Independence does not mean a vote for the SNP

 

Natcretins logic 2

 

A vote to remain means a vote for the Tories

 

 

Here's another one. We've had gimps, scum and cretins now.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

My prediction is a more resounding 'no'. Folk are tired of these divisive two-way referendums and the 'yes' crowd will lose the enthusiasm for the fight quicker and in greater numbers.

[aussieh]

We export ?50bn to the rest of the U.K. (Not including oil and gas) Compared to just ?12bn in EU and other countries. We leave the U.K. And remain in EU then our trade with the U.K. Will then be subject to EU tariffs and limits just as any other EU country is subject to these restrictions.

 

We'll be hit with a massive multi billion ? bill for leaving the U.K., immediately plunging the country into a massive unsustainable deficit. Remember we don't have anywhere near the oil reserves Salmond promised.

 

Why leave one dictator to be dictated to by another ? That's not independence. Sometimes it's better the devil you know.

 

Do we want an open door policy on immigration? We can't even support the people living in Scotland now how the feck we going to support thousands More arriving? Where will the money come from to support people? For housing? Health, education.

 

We don't even know if we'll be granted EU access, Spain are opposed right away because of the Catalonia issue. Other countries are concerned because they too have their own possible independence issues. Will a deal even if we were accepted by all member countries be a good deal for us ? We'll be accepting what we're told basically, whereas at least the U.K. Being one of the founder EU members was at the top table in terms of deals and negotiations, Scotland will be at the bottom.

 

Nope today's announcement by NS was very opportunistic and could be potentially very damaging to the countries economy. Remember the politicians get their expenses they get paid no matter what the everyday person are the ones that's going to suffer. The Euro is plummeting and instead of working with the U.K. Government t and industry to steady the economy we have a self interested first minister hell bent on Indy at any cost quite happy create more division and uncertainty. Just what we need.

 

Add to that another two years of divisive, heated, bigoted hatred. Some people won't be happy will were another Northern Ireland of the 70's and 80's at the height of the troubles.

 

 

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?63b imported from England, if they spent as much on us as we do on them it would be ?600b exported to England, but it's not and most of it is repackaged and sold on, as they get it cheap as chips. Not for much longer.

They're Lecky bills are gonnae rocket and they'll buy it too as it'll still be cheaper. Don't forget who feeds this UK, literally. Potato seeds, beef etc... Scotland's terrain will fuel its economy along with the credit rating the little old North sea oil will give us. Oh shit I forgot Scotland can't borrow or run itself, we're the only country in the world who'll just fail, just because.

 

The Euro is plummeting, what's the pound doing if the Euro is plummeting.

[OTT]

I'm not an economist and I'm a bit bored of people pretending they are by quoting figures from source XYZ when source ABC contradict that. Stats can be twisted to whatever your narrative is. I honestly don't see how Scotland could be worse off. We have much of the same industries as every other country but with oil and unique exports like Whiskey. Finally Brexit is a material change of the foundations of a no vote. Many people voted no because they were told it was the only way to assure their future (and childrens future) within the EU. That has now changed drastically and IMO it would wrong to ignore that. If you tell someone something will happen if they do something then renege then to my mind that nullifies the agreement.

 

Its going to be a divisive and horrible atmosphere over the next two years.

[Jammy T]

This is an issue which impacts all of the UK, not just Scotland.

 

Pretty arrogant of the Scots to pick and choose when they want one

 

Therefore there should be a referendum on whether or not Scotland should have another referendum.

 

[i8hibsh]

Here's another one. We've had gimps, scum and cretins now.

 

Suck it in my man.  It is positively nothing to the name calling that gets thrown from the Natcretins.

 

• Little Englanders ? aussieh
• Racists
• Bigots
• Scotland haters
• Fearties (cringe)
• Baw bags (super cringe)

[AlphonseCapone]

My prediction is a more resounding 'no'. Folk are tired of these divisive two-way referendums and the 'yes' crowd will lose the enthusiasm for the fight quicker and in greater numbers.

Not sure where you get that from considering they've not stopped fighting since the last one and the latest polls have shown a couple of points increase for a Yes vote.

[AlphonseCapone]

<p>

 

Suck it in my man. It is positively nothing to the name calling that gets thrown from the Natcretins.

 

• Little Englanders ? aussieh
• Racists
• Bigots
• Scotland haters
• Fearties (cringe)
• Baw bags (super crings)

It doesn't bother me personally mate, I've got thick skin. But when everyone is going on about it being divisive, calling folk cretins etc doesn't help. Your point could easily be made without it.

 

They are just as bad. Two wrongs don't make a right mind, take the moral high ground

[Doogz]

Here's another one. We've had gimps, scum and cretins now.

 

We should just extend Godwin's law to include any petty insults until the votes over.

[Mikey1874]

it's an Independence referendum, not a general election.

 

Time to choose, Tory rule or vote for our own government.

These statements are contradictory

 

Voting for independence to avoid a Conservative UK government is a pretty low bar.

 

Thought it was a positive movement not a negative one.

[Space Mackerel]

Just in and seen the news. Superb!

 

Let's not shit the bed this time Scotland!

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I'm going to make this my last post on here for at least 12 months. It's going to run to a million pages and probably result in bans/multiple warning points at various stages so I'm keeping out of it for now.

 

Adios amigos.

[Alwayssunnyingorgie]

Large chunks of my life we had a labour govt in Westminster that was held up by Scots MP's.......

I have never lived under a Govt in Scottish parliament that I have voted for

I haven't lived under a government in Westminster I've voted for neither has a large proportion of Scots, Westminster still decides all the important issues for Scotland so why should we not get that power to decide back? We want to be in the EU most people don't want nuclear weapons in Scotland but we don't get a choice.

[AlphonseCapone]

I'm going to make this my last post on here for at least 12 months. It's going to run to a million pages and probably result in bans/multiple warning points at various stages so I'm keeping out of it for now.

 

Adios amigos.

What a world we live in when the terrace might be the place for sanity....

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Not sure where you get that from considering they've not stopped fighting since the last one and the latest polls have shown a couple of points increase for a Yes vote.

Just a gut feeling.

 

I also think the EU result in Scotland was a bit of a red herring in terms of recruiting masses of new 'yes' voters. A lot of that 62% couldn't give a shit either way about the European Union, they just couldn't stomach the largely bigoted 'leave' campaign. Anyway, it'll be fascinating to watch and hopefully not too nasty.

[CollyWolly]

No details been released as yet but they will be in the fullness of time.

 

I hope it's our own currency, the Scots Pound or similar.

 

Why not? Every other developed country on the planet can do it. 

 

I doubt very much we will go near the Euro.

We wont get into the EU without accepting the Euro as the currency. All new members have to do this. We would be a new member.

[i8hibsh]

It doesn't bother me personally mate, I've got thick skin. But when everyone is going on about it being divisive, calling folk cretins etc doesn't help. Your point could easily be made without it.

 

They are just as bad. Two wrongs don't make a right mind, take the moral high ground

 

We as a country, hate each other.  Seriously ? we are so divided.  This is having a downstream impact to pretty much everything Scottish imo (sport, culture etc).  All The Scottish Nuisance Party have done is built a wall right through it.  This dichotomy is splitting families, friendships and is causing the entire UK to start resenting us.  When we should be concentrating on being better together all we are doing is turning ourselves into laughing stocks and not only splitting the UK but Scotland.  Do you think if it is a ?Yes? vote it will be a case of ?ah oh well? ? we will turn into Northern Ireland ? seriously.

 

We are alright as we are ffs.  We punch above our weight on many a political platform and our economy is good.  If Scotland votes ?Yes? it will ruin us as a country as people will simply not stand for it.  It is very very frightening and I certainly wont stick around to watch.  Security is also a huge concern for me.  A party that wants to strengthen our culture etc yet wants to completely dilute it by driving Scots out and ?Welcoming ALL refugees? ? it is insanity on every level.

[Marvin]

Tbf, the vote has to be 100% the same criteria as last time or it will cause untold hassle.

Just think if the rest of Europe got a vote on Brexit? So agree with your point even if it means I don't get a vote.

[doctor jambo]

We wont get into the EU without accepting the Euro as the currency. All new members have to do this. We would be a new member.

Good luck tying us to the Italian banking system, the Greek and Spanish economies and open immigration

 

If you think England are going to accept an open border with a Scotland that has open EU migration you are sorely mistaken

[Mikey1874]

What a world we live in when the terrace might be the place for sanity....

Good results are needed but yes.

 

New stand, decent performances on pitch.

 

Pity the people of Scotland aren't so passionate about the key results from health, education etc

[Beast Boy]

It depends how you look at it.

How much would our benefit / welfare bill drop by had these jobs been taken by our "own" people?

Aye, okay then mate. You're right. The guys who came to work here from other EU countries in science etc are the reason why folk are on the dole here. You work for the Daily Mail, mate?

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

Same rules, only those people of whatever nationality resident in Scotland should be eligible to vote.  IMO

Foreigners should only be allowed to vote after being in Scotland for a minimum period of time of 5 years.

[AlimOzturk]

Being ashamed of where you come from is diabolical. Yes voter or no voter.

 

Like many, going to keep my opinion to Myself this time and Not get involved. Got caught up In it last time and I have no intention of doing that this time

[dc-jambo]

Bookies have us odds-on to vote the right way this time:

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-odds-on-to-become-independent-1-4390834

 

Got a feeling old Labour areas will do that, but we shall see 

[aussieh]

Scotlands trade with EU ?12bn, rest of U.K. ?50bn. I voted remain but economically speaking, free trade with the rest of the UK is obviously a better option now that we have to choose.

Quebec had a referendum and never chose independence.

So Quebec is still a UK member. When exactly were they an independent country or Catalonia for that matter. Scotland were an Independent state with no debt and free trade with Europe until the union where all trade outside the union was banned. Slowly but surely inside the EU this has eroded and with Indy it will be sorted. 64% trade to the UK is not a good thing it's daylight robbery, time they paid the going rate.

[Alwayssunnyingorgie]

Foreigners should only be allowed to vote after being in Scotland for a minimum period of time of 5 years.

No, If they live and work here they should get to vote.

[Dawnrazor]

Got caught up In it last time and I have no intention of doing that this time

wait till you have a bevy one night!!

[i8hibsh]

Being ashamed of where you come from is diabolical. Yes voter or no voter.

 

Like many, going to keep my opinion to Myself this time and Not get involved. Got caught up In it last time and I have no intention of doing that this time

 

 

Yes it is truly tragic but I have no control over it.  I am consumed with shame about my nationality.  I don?t want it to be like this but naturally that is how it is.