Indy Ref Part Deux

[Cruyff Turn]

Obviously the situation has changed in the last few days so it might put the First Minister in a stronger position to push some European nations Into making some provisions for Scotland should we vote for independence after Brexit is complete.

 

In my opinion that would be an ideal and common sense way to get through this sorry mess. Brexit to be negotiated and complete with a deal on the table for Scotland should independence become a reality post Brexit.

 

The Scottish people could then make the most informed decisions possible during the next referendum.

Yep, completely agree.

[The Tartan Trump]

Further woe for the Nationalist cause on a great day for the Union:

 

A petition,   

' a great day for the union '  

[jake]

Sums you up. Why independence from the EU but not rUK? The EU doesn't decide on our tax and spend. The EU just said the UK Brexit ref is null and void as it's too wee and too stupid and isn't allowed to have independence votes as it Cannae afford it. And Breathe

 

Why independence from uk and not EU.

 

Too wee too stupid.

 

I told you about this line of argument.

 

But no.

Your dogmatic line of argument means nothing.

 

 

The authoritarian line by the prime minister.

Which is what she is as default from our very advanced democracy is on the one hand disgraceful but a reply to disgraceful politics from the first minister.

 

The first minister of Scotkand is abusing her position .

The democracy of this country has many faults.

But it is as fair as you can hope for in a world full of injustice.

 

Yet here we are after 2 referendums where both votes should be respected.

Absolute disgrace by the first minister which shows disdain for one of Scottish working class closest allies against the tories.

The northern english.

 

 

Get me up against the wall for that aussie.

Because ive more in common with an english miner than a paisley bigot.

[Cruyff Turn]

You are an expert on the EU, and their reaction to first, brexit, then perhaps Scotland leaving the UK are you?

No. You are definitely not that.

Did you actually just Google translate that from Danish?

[JamboX2]

Sorry about that.

 

What I was trying to say is that if the SNP are that bad in government then how come Labour or the Conservatives are not nearer to the SNP in votes at Holyrood never mind the calibre of MSP?

You're asking the same question. The same answer applies. The calibre of opposition has generally been lower than the leader of the SNP. By lower I mean sounds, looks and acts less competently.

 

Who would you vote for between a poorly performing government or someone who can't tie their shoelaces?

 

I like Dugdale. But she's a minister at best not a leader. I think the best the SNP have faced since McConnell and Alexander is Davidson. Dugdale is the best Labour have had over more than 6 months since then but it's still not good enough.

 

The standard is low. The government is poor beyond Sturgeon and Swinney. The Labour party is poorer and the Tories have a few decent MSPs and a good leader.

 

That's my point. Government gets lazy without good opposition - the SNP face it. May also faces it. We have a poor level of politician across the UK in a time of national crisis.

[jambogemz]

What the heck are you talking about here?

All I'm saying is that she might be in a better position to talk some European countries into making certain considerations during the Brexit negotiations now that another independence referendum is inevitable, it's just a matter of when.

[The Tartan Trump]

She's blocked nothing. Just suggested timing. It's not a hard concept to get.

 

Shall we have dinner at 6? No. 7. I'm busy at 6.

 

Have I blocked dinner or delayed it?

 

So the vote passes next week and Holyrood asks for a referendum before the UK leaves the EU.

Is she going to consent, or is she going to block it ?

[luckydug]

So you are happy for the SNP to mess up Brexit for all, including Scotland.

 

But it's all a game.

 

Please explain how the SNP can mess up Brexit.

I thought Mrs May and her Westminster colleagues were handling the negotiations .

Or is this going to be the excuse when the Tories do their usual feck up ? Its all that nasty Nicola Sturgeons fault  

[JamboX2]

So the vote passes next week and Holyrood asks for a referendum before the UK leaves the EU.

Is she going to consent, or is she going to block it ?

That's not how Sturgeon outlined the vote on Monday. The vote was to give her the right to negotiate an Section 30 order for the power to hold a referendum.

 

Key word negotiate. This takes two to tango.

 

Parliament will back her to negotiate. The rest is up to her.

 

To set a date would be pure politics.

[deesidejambo]

Please explain how the SNP can mess up Brexit.

I thought Mrs May and her Westminster colleagues were handling the negotiations .

Or is this going to be the excuse when the Tories do their usual feck up ? Its all that nasty Nicola Sturgeons fault

SNP are being consulted on the Brexit strategies. It is clear to me that it's in the SNPs interests for Brexit deals to be a disaster for Scotland so that the SNP can call another Ref. If Brexit goes swimmingly then the SNPs reasons for Indy are diluted.

[Cruyff Turn]

SNP are being consulted on the Brexit strategies. It is clear to me that it's in the SNPs interests for Brexit deals to be a disaster for Scotland so that the SNP can call another Ref. If Brexit goes swimmingly then the SNPs reasons for Indy are diluted.

It's not in anyone's interest for brexit to be a disaster. It would cost Scotland an absolute fortune.

[DanishTam10]

It's not in anyone's interest for brexit to be a disaster. It would cost Scotland an absolute fortune.

 

Personally, I care about English people, Welsh people and Northern Ireland people. And EU people. 

How come you are so selfish?

[jake]

So lets be clear.

 

On the one hand the first minister wants respect for the democratically elected parliament of a member state of the united kingdom.

 

Yet she wants to remain a part of a union which produced a document printed in english(oh dear aussie your racist views shouldn't approve)for an ancient people represented by the Greek government from an unelected failing executive to protect the economy of a region which sets the prevailing economic conditiins to suit the more powerful nation in that union.

 

 

Is it only me that sees this ?

 

Im for independence but its shameful politics that will eventually lose the interest in political involvement.

 

 

Shame on the first minister

[DanishTam10]

SNP are being consulted on the Brexit strategies. It is clear to me that it's in the SNPs interests for Brexit deals to be a disaster for Scotland so that the SNP can call another Ref. If Brexit goes swimmingly then the SNPs reasons for Indy are diluted.

That is why they are a disaster in govt. They don't want it to work.

 

If it works, why leave?

[Cruyff Turn]

Personally, I care about English people, Welsh people and Northern Ireland people. And EU people.

How come you are so selfish?

I care about everyone Tam, even you.

[luckydug]

SNP are being consulted on the Brexit strategies. It is clear to me that it's in the SNPs interests for Brexit deals to be a disaster for Scotland so that the SNP can call another Ref. If Brexit goes swimmingly then the SNPs reasons for Indy are diluted.

 

 

Who is doing the negotiating ?

You haven't explained how the SNP can spoil Brexit.

[Cruyff Turn]

That is why they are a disaster in govt. They don't want it to work.

 

If it works, why leave?

How do they not want it to work?

 

A good deal keeps us in the Single Market out of the EU, that is what everyone wants.

 

On your second point..

 

Why not offer Scotland full economic power within a Currency union with the UK?

[deesidejambo]

How do they not want it to work?

 

A good deal keeps us in the Single Market out of the EU, that is what everyone wants.

 

On your second point..

 

Why not offer Scotland full economic power within a Currency union with the UK?

They don't want it to work because it then dilutes the case for Independence.

[Cruyff Turn]

They don't want it to work because it then dilutes the case for Independence.

Well, not really.

 

It would be full Independence.

 

It would be the same as being in a Currency Union with the EU or just like the Currency Union between Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

[Space Mackerel]

So you are happy for the SNP to mess up Brexit for all, including Scotland.

 

But it's all a game.

Are you happy to gamble the future of the UK by Doris of Dorchester?

[The Tartan Trump]

A post Brexit Indy ref would likely see EU nationals living here unable to vote.

Which is why Sturgeon wants it before and May wants it later. 180,000 votes could be the difference.

[luckydug]

They don't want it to work because it then dilutes the case for Independence.

 

How can the SNP spoil the deal that the Tory Government are going to be negotiating ? (for the third time )

[frankblack]

Well, not really.

 

It would be full Independence.

 

It would be the same as being in a Currency Union with the EU or just like the Currency Union between Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

No it wouldn't. They would need to adopt the Euro once they eventually became a member, and the Scottish people would never vote for that.

[Cruyff Turn]

A post Brexit Indy ref would likely see EU nationals living here unable to vote.

Which is why Sturgeon wants it before and May wants it later. 180,000 votes could be the difference.

superb point actually.

[Cruyff Turn]

No it wouldn't. They would need to adopt the Euro once they eventually became a member, and the Scottish people would never vote for that.

You've lost me Frank.

I'm putting forward an alternative where Scotland is not joining the EU.

I'm talking about Currency Union with the UK.

[The Tartan Trump]

No it wouldn't. They would need to adopt the Euro once they eventually became a member, and the Scottish people would never vote for that.

Would they aye ?

Remind me when Sweden adopted the Euro.

[SwindonJambo]

You've lost me Frank.

I'm putting forward an alternative where Scotland is not joining the EU.

I'm talking about Currency Union with the UK.

With rUK outside the EEA, and Scotland still in it? Interesting! No Central Bank of our own and our interest rates set by a foreign country who would rightly set its rate to suit itself.

 

I'm not keen on Independence but I'm trying to be even handed and neutral about it given that I don't get a vote. If Scotland did go independent, anything less than its own currency with its own Central Bank in Edinburgh would not be independence.

 

Scotland does 4 times as much trade with rUK as it does with the EU. By leaving Scotland would probably be inflicting tariffs and other obstacles to trade on itself.

 

A good comparator is Ireland, a small independent country nearby, with the UK as its biggest trading partner. It joined the EEC the same day as we did. It will be very interesting to see how they do with us out and them still in.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want Scotland to be a success in or out of the UK. But at present, its economy is not in its best shape.

[jake]

With rUK outside the EEA, and Scotland still in it? Interesting! No Central Bank of our own and our interest rates set by a foreign country who would rightly set its rate to suit itself.

 

I'm not keen on Independence but I'm trying to be even handed and neutral about it given that I don't get a vote. If Scotland did go independent, anything less than its own currency with its own Central Bank in Edinburgh would not be independence.

 

Scotland does 4 times as much trade with rUK as it does with the EU. By leaving Scotland would probably be inflicting tariffs and other obstacles to trade on itself.

 

A good comparator is Ireland, a small independent country nearby, with the UK as its biggest trading partner. It joined the EEC the same day as we did. It will be very interesting to see how they do with us out and them still in.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want Scotland to be a success in or out of the UK. But at present, its economy is not in its best shape.

 

Can you name one country any one whose economy is in good shape?

 

Any economy ?

[jake]

Are you happy to gamble the future of the UK by Doris of Dorchester?

 

Absolute disgraceful post.

 

Im happy that doris has a say thats as valid as cecil from cambridge.

 

Thats as valid as manuel from spain.

 

 

Doris from dorcester has as much rights as you spacey.

[DanishTam10]

How do they not want it to work?

 

A good deal keeps us in the Single Market out of the EU, that is what everyone wants.

 

On your second point..

 

Why not offer Scotland full economic power within a Currency union with the UK?

 

You have 100% misunderstood the meaning of what I posted here.

 

I meant that the SNP are in power at the Scottish Parliament, which you will agree is here to make decisions that change laws, to hopefully make Scotland better.

 

If the SNP are successful at doing that, there would not be much cause for indyref2 or 3 .  Holyrood would be expressing itself, and making Scotland better. 

 

The SNP have not made any material change to our lives in TEN YEARS!!!!!

[SwindonJambo]

Can you name one country any one whose economy is in good shape?

Any economy ?

Germany. The Euro is loaded so heavily in its favour it's ridiculous. It produces fiscal surpluses year after year.

 

The US is growing well. despite its insane President.

 

UK has done far better than anyone expected after Brexit with the FTSE100 at a record high. Of course, as we all know, the spoils are not being fairly shared but the economy is still growing.

[Space Mackerel]

Absolute disgraceful post.

 

Im happy that doris has a say thats as valid as cecil from cambridge.

 

Thats as valid as manuel from spain.

 

 

Doris from dorcester has as much rights as you spacey.

Im only here to pick out the mis givings in peoples facts and figures.

 

Doris fae Dorchester fits into that demographic tendency.

[The Tartan Trump]

 

The SNP have not made any material change to our lives in TEN YEARS!!!!!

 

Yet they keep getting voted back in, in ever increasing numbers.

 

The only show in town.

[Cruyff Turn]

With rUK outside the EEA, and Scotland still in it? Interesting! No Central Bank of our own and our interest rates set by a foreign country who would rightly set its rate to suit itself.

 

I'm not keen on Independence but I'm trying to be even handed and neutral about it given that I don't get a vote. If Scotland did go independent, anything less than its own currency with its own Central Bank in Edinburgh would not be independence.

 

Scotland does 4 times as much trade with rUK as it does with the EU. By leaving Scotland would probably be inflicting tariffs and other obstacles to trade on itself.

 

A good comparator is Ireland, a small independent country nearby, with the UK as its biggest trading partner. It joined the EEC the same day as we did. It will be very interesting to see how they do with us out and them still in.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want Scotland to be a success in or out of the UK. But at present, its economy is not in its best shape.

I don't have a problem using the Euro, the Pound, the Krohne, the Dollar, makes no odds.

 

Might not be full Independence, we might not be able to set interest rates but we'd have full control of pretty much every single other power to Govern our own Country.

 

Could our currency be pegged to the Euro or the Pound or the Dollar?

 

Do we have to have a Pound pegged to Sterling which has 1 to 1 value?

 

Our economy is not in Great shape within the perimeters of the Union with no economic powers or assets. That is why I find it ludicrous that people are using GERs to back up the case for Scotland within the Union. Especially now, when EU exports are worth 11.2billion to the Scottish economy every year and a further 5.5 billion in tax which is more than our deficit.

Yes we'd still trade with EU countries and even if we left the UK we would still trade with England, N Ireland and Wales as they would trade with us.

 

This is essentially a flag or nationality debate because the economic case for either side is weak.

[DanishTam10]

I don't have a problem using the Euro, the Pound, the Krohne, the Dollar, makes no odds.

 

Might not be full Independence, we might not be able to set interest rates but we'd have full control of pretty much every single other power to Govern our own Country.

 

Could our currency be pegged to the Euro or the Pound or the Dollar?

 

Do we have to have a Pound pegged to Sterling which has 1 to 1 value?

 

Our economy is not in Great shape within the perimeters of the Union with no economic powers or assets. That is why I find it ludicrous that people are using GERs to back up the case for Scotland within the Union. Especially now, when EU exports are worth 11.2billion to the Scottish economy every year and a further 5.5 billion in tax which is more than our deficit.

Yes we'd still trade with EU countries and even if we left the UK we would still trade with England, N Ireland and Wales as they would trade with us.

 

This is essentially a flag or nationality debate because the economic case for either side is weak.

 

What are you talking about? 

[jake]

Germany. The Euro is loaded so heavily in its favour it's ridiculous. It produces fiscal surpluses year after year.

 

The US is growing well. despite its insane President.

 

UK has done far better than anyone expected after Brexit with the FTSE100 at a record high. Of course, as we all know, the spoils are not being fairly shared but the economy is still growing.

 

Germany

 

Whose financial well being is tied up in Italian finances?

Whose desperation stems from EU success.

It currently imposes strict fiscal control over nations not under its jurisdiction throuh the EU.

Its falling apart.

The USA.

 

Please remind me of its debt?

Its wealth is tied up through military expansion and all serious geo political philosophy sees it as the declining empire.

 

The UK .

Although im in fa

 

vour of brexit i refer you to its debt.

 

So thats 3.

[jake]

Yet they keep getting voted back in, in ever increasing numbers.

 

The only show in town.

 

Healthy democracy .

The Snp are an embarrassment.

 

After the scottish historical contribition to forward thinking.

 

Its amounted to x factor politics.

[The Tartan Trump]

I don't have a problem using the Euro, the Pound, the Krohne, the Dollar, makes no odds.

 

Might not be full Independence, we might not be able to set interest rates but we'd have full control of pretty much every single other power to Govern our own Country.

 

Could our currency be pegged to the Euro or the Pound or the Dollar?

 

Do we have to have a Pound pegged to Sterling which has 1 to 1 value?

 

Our economy is not in Great shape within the perimeters of the Union with no economic powers or assets. That is why I find it ludicrous that people are using GERs to back up the case for Scotland within the Union. Especially now, when EU exports are worth 11.2billion to the Scottish economy every year and a further 5.5 billion in tax which is more than our deficit.

Yes we'd still trade with EU countries and even if we left the UK we would still trade with England, N Ireland and Wales as they would trade with us.

 

This is essentially a flag or nationality debate because the economic case for either side is weak.

 

Healthy democracy .

The Snp are an embarrassment.

 

After the scottish historical contribition to forward thinking.

 

Its amounted to x factor politics.

Independence is forward thinking. The chance to choose our own path and shape our own destiny.

[SwindonJambo]

Germany

Whose financial well being is tied up in Italian finances?

Whose desperation stems from EU success.

It currently imposes strict fiscal control over nations not under its jurisdiction throuh the EU.

Its falling apart.

The USA.

Please remind me of its debt?

Its wealth is tied up through military expansion and all serious geo political philosophy sees it as the declining empire.

The UK .

Although im in fa

vour of brexit i refer you to its debt.

So thats 3.

All Western Democracies have huge sovereign debts with only a handful of exceptions. I was talking about growth.

 

You're quite right about Sovereign debts being too high though. Italy and France, both with similar populations to the UK, are in a far worse position. An independent Scotland would have to take on a population based share of U.K. Debt at its outset, which for a small newly independent state, could be an albatross. I suspect it could give up its share of UK assets to reduce or perhaps even fully eliminate that debt though. Either way, the first few years would be very tough, with austerity of a level not previously seen. Free prescriptions, care for the elderly and tuition fees would go right out the window. But the country would survive in some form and life would go on....

 

Good to hear from a Yes Brexiteer btw. There are probably a good many more of you than the SNP would like to believe.

[Roxy Hearts]

Healthy democracy .

The Snp are an embarrassment.

 

After the scottish historical contribition to forward thinking.

 

Its amounted to x factor politics.

No they are not. They are a means to an end for some.

 

What is it others parties have that enthralls?

 

At least they don't talk our country down.

 

Mundell, Davidson, Dugdale, Rennie, Corbyn and May. Dearie me Scotland can do better than this.

[Cruyff Turn]

You have 100% misunderstood the meaning of what I posted here.

 

I meant that the SNP are in power at the Scottish Parliament, which you will agree is here to make decisions that change laws, to hopefully make Scotland better.

 

If the SNP are successful at doing that, there would not be much cause for indyref2 or 3 . Holyrood would be expressing itself, and making Scotland better.

 

The SNP have not made any material change to our lives in TEN YEARS!!!!!

Dude, I don't support the SNP, I support Independence.

 

The SNP only exist to gain Independence, after Independence they are an irrelevance, they have served their purpose.

 

If people didn't want constitutional questions brought up then why did people return them with a majority in Westminster and as the biggest party in Holyrood?

 

On education and the nhs perhaps they haven't done a great job. But you get lots of free stuff that lots of Unionists are happy to take ,like Prescription Charges, Bus passes for the elderly, free Education which is a superb policy, council tax being frozen for as long as it has been, infrastructure projects and its stance on renewable energy taking Scotland into the 21st Century.

 

Which compared to what Labour and the Tories have done for Scotland is a hell of a lot more.

 

There will always be a case for Independence while Scotland is part of the UK. The Constitutional question is an utter nightmare and undemocratic in the 21st Century. It doesn't work because Scotland and England within the Framework of the Union are not equals, one Country over rules the Democratic process of the other.

 

The only way it will ever be put to bed is with Scotland as:

 

1. Full economic powers and control over all other decisions bar Interest Rates within a Currency Union with England, N Ireland and Wales. Where we are neighbours and equals where we can trade with each other, have open borders and share a mutually agreed Geographical interest on Defence, I.e. protecting our Borders and Coasts.

 

2. An Independent Country on its own with its own Currency and Central Bank.

 

3. An Independent Country within the EU using the Euro.

 

4. An Independent Country with its own Currency pegged to the Euro and within the Single Market.

 

It is really that straightforward.

 

However if you are happy with the status quo then chirp away.

[Space Mackerel]

BBC Question Time tonight, first question too:

 

23 minutes of English pub talk from Bognor Regis about Scottish Independence

[DanishTam10]

All I'm saying is that she might be in a better position to talk some European countries into making certain considerations during the Brexit negotiations now that another independence referendum is inevitable, it's just a matter of when.

Not formally. 

[DanishTam10]

SNP are being consulted on the Brexit strategies. It is clear to me that it's in the SNPs interests for Brexit deals to be a disaster for Scotland so that the SNP can call another Ref. If Brexit goes swimmingly then the SNPs reasons for Indy are diluted.

 

 

It's not in anyone's interest for brexit to be a disaster. It would cost Scotland an absolute fortune.

 

 

That is why they are a disaster in govt. They don't want it to work.

 

If it works, why leave?

 

 

How do they not want it to work?

 

A good deal keeps us in the Single Market out of the EU, that is what everyone wants.

 

On your second point..

 

Why not offer Scotland full economic power within a Currency union with the UK?

 

 

They don't want it to work because it then dilutes the case for Independence.

 

 

Well, not really.

 

It would be full Independence.

 

It would be the same as being in a Currency Union with the EU or just like the Currency Union between Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

 

 

You have 100% misunderstood the meaning of what I posted here.

 

I meant that the SNP are in power at the Scottish Parliament, which you will agree is here to make decisions that change laws, to hopefully make Scotland better.

 

If the SNP are successful at doing that, there would not be much cause for indyref2 or 3 .  Holyrood would be expressing itself, and making Scotland better. 

 

The SNP have not made any material change to our lives in TEN YEARS!!!!!

 

 

Dude...away.

 

I don't prefer these multiquote replies. 

It's easier if people stick to a question, and replied to it.

 

What I mean is. If the SNP, who have been in govt for ten long years, had made a difference, there would be no need for independence. 

That is why, the snp will continue to be terrible at govt. for the next however many years. There is no point. They are wrecking it. 

 

That is the only point I made here. 

[joondalupjambo]

Anyone else remember the SNP rallying call "Free by 93"? 

 

Shame we cannot look back and say it came true.  Still we fight on.

 

Wendy Wood we will never forget you.

[aussieh]

Why independence from uk and not EU.

 

Too wee too stupid.

 

I told you about this line of argument.

 

But no.

Your dogmatic line of argument means nothing.

 

 

The authoritarian line by the prime minister.

Which is what she is as default from our very advanced democracy is on the one hand disgraceful but a reply to disgraceful politics from the first minister.

 

The first minister of Scotkand is abusing her position .

The democracy of this country has many faults.

But it is as fair as you can hope for in a world full of injustice.

 

Yet here we are after 2 referendums where both votes should be respected.

Absolute disgrace by the first minister which shows disdain for one of Scottish working class closest allies against the tories.

The northern english.

 

 

Get me up against the wall for that aussie.

Because ive more in common with an english miner than a paisley bigot.

Occam's Razor Jake. The only reason you're against a second indyref is because you're a bigot who hates a certain type of refugee. Oh and BTW it's not English who'd be up against the wall it's treacherous Scots. Fwiw I don't care if we're in or out of the EU but the poll said 62%/for the EU up here. Oh and I don't give a shit what CT Dafty thinks of me. Stick to info wars and sticking Lego up yer nose whilst babysitting.

[Thaw]

Effectively, Sturgeon is using the same cart-before-the-horse logic people try to use on me at my work all the time.

 

"Unfortunately, it's probably not likely that you'll be rehoused until next year."

"But ah told ma wee boy and his mum ah would have him at ma new house for Christmas"

[Rudolf's Mate]

I drop in and out of this thread however I wouldn't mind seeing a poll asking two questions:

 

Independence - Yes or No!

EU - In or Out!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Nookie Bear]

Scotlands 'defence' spending post Indy

 

I would.support any move to reduce defence spending to the absolute minimum required to protect our borders.

[Hasselhoff]

https://twitter.com/agentp22/status/842515167904759809