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Indy Ref Part Deux


Armageddon

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Who says its independence at all costs?

Because many have already decided they are voting for independence yet they do not even know the financial implications and what it will mean for Scotland. I said earlier I was a yes voter previously, as it stands now if I had to vote tomorrow it's a definite NO. And it will stay that way unless I can be convinced by genuine proof and facts that we can sustain independence and not end up another Greece.

 

People go on about the Better Together lies, yet conveniently forget Alex Salmonds lies that many people bought into. The oil reserve figures hmmm he was only 97% out with his gestimations.

 

"Alex Salmond had planned 24 March 2016 as his independence day and the budget he published during the Scottish independence referendum envisaged it having up to ?7.5 billion of oil to spend. Today?s Budget shows that the figure will, instead be zero: precisely 100 per cent less than what the SNP had told Scots. Without it, the Scottish budget simply would not stand up."

 

I was generous I said he was 97% out according to that arrivals he was 100% wrong, that was a year ago just when Osbourne put together a multi million pound cash injection into the North East because of drastically falling oil prices and revenues.

 

Due to these figures if we'd gained independence in 2014 then 2016 was when we were due to become independent. Had that happened our deficit would have been so low it would have taken an 18% cut in spending and 21% tax increase to level it out. That's how wrong Salmond was

 

 

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We ran all these debates two years ago.

 

Scotland can be independent but like Brexit the process of getting out will be hard, muddled, costly and long. The economy will suffer to begin with and recover a number of years on. We will get into NATO, the EU, Commonwealth, UN etc but with some the terms of entry will be different and it won't be straighforward and immediate. For another two years health, education, the economy, welfare etc will be on the back burner as we debate who we are and so on.

 

Then a decision will be made.

 

Sturgeon has a mountain to climb imo. But the No politicians should stop belly-aching over a vote happening but get out there to take the fight to the Yes movement and force a decent and honest debate. Ratchet the pressure on both sides as punters and hold both sides feet to the fire.

 

My two cents;

 

Brexit's shit.

Indyref2 is a bit shit.

Corbyn's shit.

May's shit.

 

A competent batch of politicians at Holyrood and in Westminster and we wouldn't be in this boat. Politics is absolutely failing people across the UK and Scotland at the moment.

 

It's infuriating.

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kingantti1874

The tax hikes and public sector cuts which will inevitably come from the Convservatives in Westminster after a soft or hard Brexit?

 

Either way the above it happening (With a soft or hard Brexit or with Scotland In or Out of the EU) but why not atleast have a say in the matter, where you're vote might mean something instead of being ignored.

Firstly - My vote isn't ignored - it counted the exact same as the Londoners who also voted to remain in the UK with a larger majority than Scotland , secondly - we have a bigger voice the in the UK than we'd have in Germany, sorry Europe.

 

I have no respect whatsoever for "Scots" who want out of the UK and into the EU.

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Vote Yes.

 

Scotland can only prosper under independence.

 

Currency is a red herring.

 

Before i go further i apologise for repeating myself.

 

Oil is not conjusive to a successful economy.

Fracking is most certainly detrimental.

 

Scotlands success will be governed by an outlook thats not a vote winner unfortunately.

Its worth will mostly be dictated by its internal economy which is not to be sniffed at.

There has been a movement of people to Scotland which is mostly english.

Especially Edinburgh.

Its banks will have to operate in a manner similar to Panamas which had no significant impact from 2008.

Its capital was not risked.

Scotlland is a safe lawful country with social stabilty and good prospects for expansion.

There are many different measures of wealth.

Our close ties with England and an obvious open border will make us attractive to international business.

Culturally i hope it will free us of many negativez and historically we are a nation of entrepreneurs.

 

Its late so i wont give it to much detail.

 

But.

 

We can never control our economy but we can manipulate it.

And retain the social fairness that saw Scottish philosophy of the time contribute to the American constitution.

 

Vote Yes.

 

Globally gives us a seat.

 

But please no middle man like the EU.

 

 

HEY if we are clever not popular but keep trident for a seat at the big table

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kingantti1874

Vote Yes.

 

Scotland can only prosper under independence.

 

Currency is a red herring.

 

Before i go further i apologise for repeating myself.

 

Oil is not conjusive to a successful economy.

Fracking is most certainly detrimental.

 

Scotlands success will be governed by an outlook thats not a vote winner unfortunately.

Its worth will mostly be dictated by its internal economy which is not to be sniffed at.

There has been a movement of people to Scotland which is mostly english.

Especially Edinburgh.

Its banks will have to operate in a manner similar to Panamas which had no significant impact from 2008.

Its capital was not risked.

Scotlland is a safe lawful country with social stabilty and good prospects for expansion.

There are many different measures of wealth.

Our close ties with England and an obvious open border will make us attractive to international business.

Culturally i hope it will free us of many negativez and historically we are a nation of entrepreneurs.

 

Its late so i wont give it to much detail.

 

But.

 

We can never control our economy but we can manipulate it.

And retain the social fairness that saw Scottish philosophy of the time contribute to the American constitution.

 

Vote Yes.

 

Globally gives us a seat.

 

But please no middle man like the EU.

 

 

HEY if we are clever not popular but keep trident for a seat at the big table

What a load of drivel.

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I love how Nats are saying that oil is not that important now. Ffs it was pretty much the basis for the entire indyref 1.

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Cruyff Turn

It's not conjecture at all the figures are available to view online from many places including the Scottish government. Those figures exclude oil and gas by the way.

 

The tariffs and limits are not conjecture the U.K. Is already subject to them read my other post re these.

 

I haven't mentioned a thing about us paying for Brexit, however since you bring it up, the Brexit bill is for already agreed deals the U.K. Made, Scotland being part of that UK would also have to negotiate around these.

 

 

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Scotland pays a price either way to be honest. The difference is we have never been in a position where we can control our own economy.

 

Scotland might trade more with the UK but the UK sell the exports we trade with them.

Our Whiskey industry is 25% of the UK's food and drink exports.

England's automotive industry will collapse after brexit as will their steel industry and services.

 

What major company is going to base themselves in England if they are not part of the world's biggest single market?

 

Where as Scotland may be in a seriously good position to be one of only two English speaking nations in the world's biggest single market and with full control of corporation tax we could grow our service industry.

 

We either get pulled down with a sinking ship or we run our own affairs.

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Vote Yes.

 

Scotland can only prosper under independence.

 

Currency is a red herring.

 

Before i go further i apologise for repeating myself.

 

Oil is not conjusive to a successful economy.

Fracking is most certainly detrimental.

 

Scotlands success will be governed by an outlook thats not a vote winner unfortunately.

Its worth will mostly be dictated by its internal economy which is not to be sniffed at.

There has been a movement of people to Scotland which is mostly english.

Especially Edinburgh.

Its banks will have to operate in a manner similar to Panamas which had no significant impact from 2008.

Its capital was not risked.

Scotlland is a safe lawful country with social stabilty and good prospects for expansion.

There are many different measures of wealth.

Our close ties with England and an obvious open border will make us attractive to international business.

Culturally i hope it will free us of many negativez and historically we are a nation of entrepreneurs.

 

Its late so i wont give it to much detail.

 

But.

 

We can never control our economy but we can manipulate it.

And retain the social fairness that saw Scottish philosophy of the time contribute to the American constitution.

 

Vote Yes.

 

Globally gives us a seat.

 

But please no middle man like the EU.

 

 

HEY if we are clever not popular but keep trident for a seat at the big table

You voted Independence. Fair enough.

You voted Brexit. Fair enough.

 

Sturgeon today said she would seek not only free market access but full membership of the European Union.

 

Care to square the circle here?

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Firstly - My vote isn't ignored - it counted the exact same as the Londoners who also voted to remain in the UK with a larger majority than Scotland , secondly - we have a bigger voice the in the UK than we'd have in Germany, sorry Europe.

 

I have no respect whatsoever for "Scots" who want out of the UK and into the EU.

No wonder the first Scottish referendum was a 'No' if Londoners could vote in it?? I bet most of them have never been in Scotland.

 

Why don't you have any respect for Scots wanting to leave the UK and remain in the EU? Not trying to troll you, just wondering.

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the problem is though sturgeon has said she wants the indyref to happen before brexit is finished (between autum 18 and spring 19). so they probably wont know the full details of the brexit deal. 

 

Thats the problem for me. Would the best chance of a Yes vote not be if Brexit goes tits up . People would be so pissed off at the UK government inflicting a disastrous unwanted policy on Scotland that a Yes vote would be highly likely and with a good majority as well.

If the Scottish government are determined to base all the arguments on Scotland entering the EU and rushing the Referendum through before Brexit they will lose imo. Unless of course it has become obvious by that time that Brexit  has failed and is harming the country.

I wish they would just wait and let Mrs May have her way and hold the referendum after Brexit. There is a good amount of Nationalists who are not that fussed about EU anyway. We can always have a vote on whether to re apply to join the EU after Independence.

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DanishTam10

We ran all these debates two years ago.

 

Scotland can be independent but like Brexit the process of getting out will be hard, muddled, costly and long. The economy will suffer to begin with and recover a number of years on. We will get into NATO, the EU, Commonwealth, UN etc but with some the terms of entry will be different and it won't be straighforward and immediate. For another two years health, education, the economy, welfare etc will be on the back burner as we debate who we are and so on.

 

Then a decision will be made.

 

Sturgeon has a mountain to climb imo. But the No politicians should stop belly-aching over a vote happening but get out there to take the fight to the Yes movement and force a decent and honest debate. Ratchet the pressure on both sides as punters and hold both sides feet to the fire.

 

My two cents;

 

Brexit's shit.

Indyref2 is a bit shit.

Corbyn's shit.

May's shit.

 

A competent batch of politicians at Holyrood and in Westminster and we wouldn't be in this boat. Politics is absolutely failing people across the UK and Scotland at the moment.

 

It's infuriating.

 

But we don't know what the question will be. Last time it was a straight yes/no.

 

This time around, it won't be that question, nor those answers. 

 

Even though we will batter the crap out of each for years. And ignore the state of social care, education, police, nhs. 

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Cruyff Turn

I love how Nats are saying that oil is not that important now. Ffs it was pretty much the basis for the entire indyref 1.

That was wrong however it will still be a valuable commodity to have and it will recover before dying off. Completely unpredictable and it was madness to base an economy on oil.
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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

 

Why don't you have any respect for Scots wanting to leave the UK and remain in the EU? Not trying to troll you, just wondering.

I wondered that too. Like having no respect for someone who picks one car over another. After all, they're both just things to drive in. :lol:

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No wonder the first Scottish referendum was a 'No' if Londoners could vote in it?? I bet most of them have never been in Scotland.

 

Why don't you have any respect for Scots wanting to leave the UK and remain in the EU? Not trying to troll you, just wondering.

Serious question, do you get on the special bus with aussieh in the mornings?

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DanishTam10

Scotland pays a price either way to be honest. The difference is we have never been in a position where we can control our own economy.

 

Scotland might trade more with the UK but the UK sell the exports we trade with them.

Our Whiskey industry is 25% of the UK's food and drink exports.

England's automotive industry will collapse after brexit as will their steel industry and services.

 

What major company is going to base themselves in England if they are not part of the world's biggest single market?

 

Where as Scotland may be in a seriously good position to be one of only two English speaking nations in the world's biggest single market and with full control of corporation tax we could grow our service industry.

 

We either get pulled down with a sinking ship or we run our own affairs.

 

he went there, whisky export

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Because many have already decided they are voting for independence yet they do not even know the financial implications and what it will mean for Scotland. I said earlier I was a yes voter previously, as it stands now if I had to vote tomorrow it's a definite NO. And it will stay that way unless I can be convinced by genuine proof and facts that we can sustain independence and not end up another Greece.

 

People go on about the Better Together lies, yet conveniently forget Alex Salmonds lies that many people bought into. The oil reserve figures hmmm he was only 97% out with his gestimations.

 

"Alex Salmond had planned 24 March 2016 as his independence day and the budget he published during the Scottish independence referendum envisaged it having up to ?7.5 billion of oil to spend. Today?s Budget shows that the figure will, instead be zero: precisely 100 per cent less than what the SNP had told Scots. Without it, the Scottish budget simply would not stand up."

 

I was generous I said he was 97% out according to that arrivals he was 100% wrong, that was a year ago just when Osbourne put together a multi million pound cash injection into the North East because of drastically falling oil prices and revenues.

 

Due to these figures if we'd gained independence in 2014 then 2016 was when we were due to become independent. Had that happened our deficit would have been so low it would have taken an 18% cut in spending and 21% tax increase to level it out. That's how wrong Salmond was

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where is your quote beginning with from?

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Scotland pays a price either way to be honest. The difference is we have never been in a position where we can control our own economy.

 

Scotland might trade more with the UK but the UK sell the exports we trade with them.

Our Whiskey industry is 25% of the UK's food and drink exports.

England's automotive industry will collapse after brexit as will their steel industry and services.

 

What major company is going to base themselves in England if they are not part of the world's biggest single market?

 

Where as Scotland may be in a seriously good position to be one of only two English speaking nations in the world's biggest single market and with full control of corporation tax we could grow our service industry.

 

We either get pulled down with a sinking ship or we run our own affairs.

 

 

Companies that can operate with free trade agreements

 

Snapchat opening its European HQ in London, this was announced just 2 months ago.

Facebook opening its HQ in London this year as well.

 

Thats jus two of the worlds biggest companies.

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Cruyff Turn

Companies that can operate with free trade agreements

 

Snapchat opening its European HQ in London, this was announced just 2 months ago.

Facebook opening its HQ in London this year as well.

 

Thats jus two of the worlds biggest companies.

And they'll last forever right enough.

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Cruyff Turn

he went there, whisky export

25% of the UKs food and drinks industry , 80% of ours. What is your point caller.

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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

Is that a serious reply?

:lol:

 

Wondered that too. Facebook is just a fad btw.

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You voted Independence. Fair enough.

You voted Brexit. Fair enough.

 

Sturgeon today said she would seek not only free market access but full membership of the European Union.

 

Care to square the circle here?

 

I was making the case on the question in front of me.

 

But i admit it may make me abstain.

 

Voting for an independent Scotland outside the EU is economically and culturely sound.

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Serious question, do you get on the special bus with aussieh in the mornings?

Someone's in a grumpy mood.

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Cruyff Turn

Probably longer than the demand for oil.

Doubtful.

 

However seeing as we are looking to move away from that energy source we already have a head start with energy sources of the future.

 

What is England exporting?

 

Baccy, Cars, Scrap and Steel.

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Is that a serious reply?

Any word on if the 50bn exports was a better deal for England or Scotland?

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Doubtful.

However seeing as we are looking to move away from that energy source we already have a head start with energy sources of the future.

What is England exporting?

Baccy, Cars, Scrap and Steel.

Why so much talk on exports? Can we talk about the financial sector?

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Cruyff Turn

Is that a serious reply?

Social media? Well it won't, won't last 10 years. What else would you like me to say on that?

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Any word on if the 50bn exports was a better deal for England or Scotland?

 

 

It was our exports so you work it out. Like I said having ran businesses in the food industry many years ago my suppliers didn't whinge because i was making a profit on what I bought from them, and likewise I didn't complain knowing the restaurant I supplied was making 4 times more on an item I sold to them. It's called business. My supplier made his money, I made my money, the restaurant made his.

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Social media? Well it won't, won't last 10 years. What else would you like me to say on that?

 

 

Im sure there were plenty dafties said exactly the same 13 years ago when Facebook started. Facebook like other social media and anything on the net will evolve with the times, like it has done already.

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It was our exports so you work it out. Like I said having ran businesses in the food industry many years ago my suppliers didn't whinge because i was making a profit on what I bought from them, and likewise I didn't complain knowing the restaurant I supplied was making 4 times more on an item I sold to them. It's called business. My supplier made his money, I made my money, the restaurant made his.

Cool. So England are obviously making a profit. They will definitely be looking to stop that.

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Cool. So England are obviously making a profit. They will definitely be looking to stop that.

 

 

No the rUK made profits, whats your problem with this? it is how businesses work. 

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Scotland pays a price either way to be honest. The difference is we have never been in a position where we can control our own economy.

 

Scotland might trade more with the UK but the UK sell the exports we trade with them.

Our Whiskey industry is 25% of the UK's food and drink exports.

England's automotive industry will collapse after brexit as will their steel industry and services.

 

What major company is going to base themselves in England if they are not part of the world's biggest single market?

 

Where as Scotland may be in a seriously good position to be one of only two English speaking nations in the world's biggest single market and with full control of corporation tax we could grow our service industry.

 

We either get pulled down with a sinking ship or we run our own affairs.

I wouldn't be so sure on your collapse of the UK economy under Brexit. They'll get a decent deal in the end due to the balance of trade being worth too much to both sides.

 

Both Brexit and Independence are leaps into the unknown which present unique risks and benefits.

 

For example a Brexit Britain can up trade with emerging amd faster growing non-EU economies. Independence Scotland can make her own way.

 

There are downsides to both. We need to accept that first before proceeding.

 

Far too many people use this as an opportunity to gloat against the other and dream a glorious alternative. There's going to be drawbacks in being a small nation on the periphery of Europe with little soft power and even less hard power as Scotland but there will be benefits in that too.

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Cruyff Turn

Im sure there were plenty dafties said exactly the same 13 years ago when Facebook started. Facebook like other social media and anything on the net will evolve with the times, like it has done already.

Of course it will. We don't know what the future holds.
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Of course it will. We don't know what the future holds.

 

 

But you said they won't be around forever exact words were (sarcastically) "Aye they'll be around forever right enough" so you obviously think you know what the future holds or why make a ridiculous comment like that?

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On you go.

London is the largest financial centre on the planet.

Almost 80p in every ?1 of the UK GDP comes from the services industry (not just finance)

 

So all our talk being on export is ridiculous when it is a fraction of our GDP.

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No the rUK made profits, whats your problem with this? it is how businesses work.

Not sure if you're being serious here? You just argued against yourself over 4 pages. I'm off to bed.

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Cruyff Turn

London is the largest financial centre on the planet.

Almost 80p in every ?1 of the UK GDP comes from the services industry (not just finance)

 

So all our talk being on export is ridiculous when it is a fraction of our GDP.

40 years of EU financial regulation and banking laws to wrangle about will no doubt have serious implications for the City of London.

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Cruyff Turn

But you said they won't be around forever exact words were (sarcastically) "Aye they'll be around forever right enough" so you obviously think you know what the future holds or why make a ridiculous comment like that?

Hardly a ridiculous comment. Completely irrelevant tbh.
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Cruyff Turn

I wouldn't be so sure on your collapse of the UK economy under Brexit. They'll get a decent deal in the end due to the balance of trade being worth too much to both sides.

 

Both Brexit and Independence are leaps into the unknown which present unique risks and benefits.

 

For example a Brexit Britain can up trade with emerging amd faster growing non-EU economies. Independence Scotland can make her own way.

 

There are downsides to both. We need to accept that first before proceeding.

 

Far too many people use this as an opportunity to gloat against the other and dream a glorious alternative. There's going to be drawbacks in being a small nation on the periphery of Europe with little soft power and even less hard power as Scotland but there will be benefits in that too.

Sensible post, can't really disagree with that.
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DanishTam10

40 years of EU financial regulation and banking laws to wrangle about will no doubt have serious implications for the City of London.

 

But Scotland outside UK will not have significant wrangles?

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DanishTam10

Well.

 

What is the question going to be? It won't be yes/no. 

The Yes/no answer is not a friend of genuine democracy. 

 

That is why voting for politicians, is a better thing than these huge significant referendums. 

 

I can't believe Scotland will let the SNP away with being so crap at governing. But we will. What a mess. 

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Votes Yes last time, will vote No the next. Absolute farce this has gone to a 2nd referendum, the people voted and the majority wanted to remain in the UK. Get over it Sturgeon you abrasive wee cow.

 

Maybe we should have a poll on what people voted last time and what they plan on voting next.

 

Im certain it'll be a resounding No vote this time round, something like 62% in favour this time or something similar.

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AlphonseCapone

Feel sorry for the youngsters who will pay a massive price socially and financially if the people of scotland get duped into voting for independence. With salmond estimating scotland would have ?7.6 billion in the coffers every year. That has proved to be another of salmonds many desperate lies. How can snp make up this money . Up taxes and cut services , e.u rules that scotland a country with the biggest debts in europe would have to get its house in order. As sturgeon says independance transcendseverything. Health,education,security.

My generation are already paying the price for the one before absolutely milking it. What's the difference?

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AlphonseCapone

Well.

 

What is the question going to be? It won't be yes/no.

The Yes/no answer is not a friend of genuine democracy.

 

That is why voting for politicians, is a better thing than these huge significant referendums.

 

I can't believe Scotland will let the SNP away with being so crap at governing. But we will. What a mess.

Tam, I said it to you before when you questioned the Greens backing an independence referendum two days ago, you'd be advised to pay attention to events. The question will be yes/no. It'll be exactly the same as last time. It has to be quite frankly otherwise it'd cause carnage.

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