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aussieh

More Tory lies

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Doogz

They are limited only to income tax, flexibility would have allowed Scotland to raise taxes in other areas to cover shortfalls.

 

The offer of devolving income tax is a clear trap. The Tories would love to see Scotland ramping up its taxes to mitigate their annual austerity measures. The net result would Scots paying more tax and getting less back from London which would have no end as the Tories could just turn the screw tighter.

 

They have full control over stamp duty land tax and landfill tax.

They also have the power to introduce new taxes - this is subject to agreement from Westminster but I would expect any block from there could only help the case for independence.

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Hunky Dory

They have full control over stamp duty land tax and landfill tax.

They also have the power to introduce new taxes - this is subject to agreement from Westminster but I would expect any block from there could only help the case for independence.

Either of those will not generate enough income to mitigate the reduction in budget, realistically only income tax can bridge the gap.

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Doogz

Either of those will not generate enough income to mitigate the reduction in budget, realistically only income tax can bridge the gap.

 

If you don't want to raise income tax then why not attempt to introduce new taxes then ? Over the last 5 years public spending per person has been higher in Scotland than the UK average (in fact the only place it's been at higher levels that Scotland is in Northern Ireland).  If we want to maintain spending at these levels shouldn't we take the responsibility for it by paying more tax ?

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Space Mackerel

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

 

Election overspend scandal rears its ugly head again and 2 Tory Mp's not so happy.

 

Is there no end to this hapless bunch?

Edited by Space Mackerel

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SwindonJambo

Of course all other political parties are unfailingly honest at all times.

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Hunky Dory

True but this is massive. We could be looking at umpteen by-elections.

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SwindonJambo

True but this is massive. We could be looking at umpteen by-elections.

Even if we were, the Tories would win the lot due to the weak, divided and ineffectual opposition. The same reason they won the last election.

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Hunky Dory

I reckon the Lib Dems would take a few off them. Only have to look at Richmond Park.

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aussieh

Are you still under the insane assumption that politicians tell the truth? Every single party is every bit as bad as the last shower of incompetents who held the office.

Doesn't mean we have to accept it tho' maybe in a Indy Scotland we could sort that out under harsh laws. Just a thought.

There's 18 Tory MPs under investigation for election fraud as we speak, BTW.

Edited by aussieh

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aussieh

If you don't want to raise income tax then why not attempt to introduce new taxes then ? Over the last 5 years public spending per person has been higher in Scotland than the UK average (in fact the only place it's been at higher levels that Scotland is in Northern Ireland). If we want to maintain spending at these levels shouldn't we take the responsibility for it by paying more tax ?

Over the last 40 years revenue per head has been higher from Scotland. More responsibility you say? Independence Edited by aussieh

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JamboX2

All this does is stifle free thinking and stop local isssues being considered as much as they should.

 

The SNP should have a united front in Indy that's fine, but not on governance.

Exactly where I am.

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JamboX2

Perhaps they feel that utilizing their extremely limited, tax raising, devolved powers to further mitigate Tory cuts is not acceptable. As the annual budget for Scotland decreases, should the SNP penalize people further through tax increases, is that you're purporting? We're looking at annual decreases for the remainder of the Tory government, where will tax increases stop?

Real terms the budget goes up though. On should we "penalise" Scots with higher tax? Well you're asking a bit of an odd question. If Scotland becomes independent and the tax take shrinks you must either (1) cut or (2) raise tax to maintain services.

 

The devolution of tax powers meana if your budget shrinks (or you wish to enact a more progresssive tax regieme) you can do so. It provides the government flexibility. No one is being taxed twice here. There are devolved taxes you pay and if they go up it is spent in Scotland.

 

Equally, at the end of the day, if you want first class public services you may have to pay more tax to afford them. So yes. If we want more from government, indy or not, we have to pay more for it. I'm happy with that.

 

As for Trident, a FOI established that there were only 500 jobs directly supported by its existence in Scotland. I'd rather have the removal of nuclear weapons from our shores in exhange for those jobs and the ludicrous amount of money the replacement is costing over its lifespan. It would appear that many others, including the SNP, share this belief.

That is 500 at the yard alone. Small beer. But over the west coast 1000s of supply sector (jobs supporting the yard) rely on the yard being there. It's the same with Rosyth. Or was the same with coal pits and steel works. If you shrink or close a main employer it impacts the wider economyof an area as there is less money moving around it.

 

I'm anti-Trident but you need a diversification plan. None of which exists.

 

I believe that SNP members are capable of free-thought, however all the new members joined shortly after 2014. It's quite likely that they share ideas thanks to the referendum experience that initially brought them together.

I don't doubt that on independence. But surely you can't say all agree with a corporation tax cut or one police force? The referendum didn't do that surely?

 

I think, and writers like Loki and Vonny Moyes have been good here, the rush to the SNP is as much a blurring of Yes/SNP lines by many yes voters.

 

The wider movement was quite vibrant and has matured somewhat. The SNP seem to be a broken record on a moral crusade that was rejected in 2014. Wider debates and broader opinions are needef to win for Pro-Indy.

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Doogz

Over the last 40 years revenue per head has been higher from Scotland. More responsibility you say? Independence

 

Do you have a breakdown of these figures over the last 40 years ? I'd be interested to look at the trend over that period.

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Hunky Dory

Real terms the budget goes up though. On should we "penalise" Scots with higher tax? Well you're asking a bit of an odd question. If Scotland becomes independent and the tax take shrinks you must either (1) cut or (2) raise tax to maintain services.

The devolution of tax powers meana if your budget shrinks (or you wish to enact a more progresssive tax regieme) you can do so. It provides the government flexibility. No one is being taxed twice here. There are devolved taxes you pay and if they go up it is spent in Scotland.

Equally, at the end of the day, if you want first class public services you may have to pay more tax to afford them. So yes. If we want more from government, indy or not, we have to pay more for it. I'm happy with that.

 

That is 500 at the yard alone. Small beer. But over the west coast 1000s of supply sector (jobs supporting the yard) rely on the yard being there. It's the same with Rosyth. Or was the same with coal pits and steel works. If you shrink or close a main employer it impacts the wider economyof an area as there is less money moving around it.

I'm anti-Trident but you need a diversification plan. None of which exists.

 

I don't doubt that on independence. But surely you can't say all agree with a corporation tax cut or one police force? The referendum didn't do that surely?

I think, and writers like Loki and Vonny Moyes have been good here, the rush to the SNP is as much a blurring of Yes/SNP lines by many yes voters.

The wider movement was quite vibrant and has matured somewhat. The SNP seem to be a broken record on a moral crusade that was rejected in 2014. Wider debates and broader opinions are needef to win for Pro-Indy.

Did the Fraser of Allander not confirm that the budget had declined? At what point do you stop wanting to pay additional taxes to further public services given that the Tories intend further austerity? We shouldn't be penalized (correct spelling for me!) for the governments unneccessary austerity measures.

 

Disagree with Trident point but acquiesce to the unified SNP stance.

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aussieh

Do you have a breakdown of these figures over the last 40 years ? I'd be interested to look at the trend over that period.

I Cannae do stuff like that but its on the UK government site , I think. Under Region as they like to call us.

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Doogz

I Cannae do stuff like that but its on the UK government site , I think. Under Region as they like to call us.

 

Do you remember if it was revenue, GVA or some other measurement ?  I can get the GVA figures by region for 2011 > 2015 but going back 40 years seems more difficult to find.

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...a bit disco

You've got 1 MP in Scotland , and this happens...

 

David Mundell identified as one of the 29 Tories facing Police investigations#SkyNews

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aussieh

Do you remember if it was revenue, GVA or some other measurement ? I can get the GVA figures by region for 2011 > 2015 but going back 40 years seems more difficult to find.

I'll find it, but it'll have to be later bud.

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Doogz

I'll find it, but it'll have to be later bud.

No worries - thanks !

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Cade

Hammond takes orders from the Daily Mail and scraps his NI increase plans.

 

giphy.gif

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Space Mackerel

Must have been pressure from Alex Salmond that's caused this.

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deesidejambo

Must have been pressure from Alex Salmond that's caused this.

At least we can go on scamming the cash in hand work and the mileage expenses.

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Psychedelicropcircle

 

You've got 1 MP in Scotland , and this happens...

SHUFFLEPAW? @shufflepaw

 

3h3 hours ago

 

 

More

 

David Mundell identified as one of the 29 Tories facing Police investigations#SkyNews

Scotland soon to be a TORY FREE ZONE *pleasing*

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Space Mackerel

Fluffy is going to be toast.

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jambo lodge

Despicable party.

 

You have been listening too much to Mr Angry, Alex Salmond.

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Space Mackerel

You have been listening too much to Mr Angry, Alex Salmond.

 

Hes a Yorkshire blogger.

 

1. The National Insurance U-turn

The mainstream media desperately tried to turn the absurd Tory U-turn on their proposed National Insurance hike into an attack on Jeremy Corbyn, but the truth of it is that the "Corbyn missed an open goal" narrative is a sideshow designed to deflect attention away from the abject incompetence of the Tory party leadership. 

 

It's absolutely clear that Philip Hammond was far too busy writing jokes to put in his budget speech to bother briefing his fellow Tory MPs or the pro-Tory press that he was going to casually break the Tory manifest commitment not to raise National Insurance. The week of absolutely ridiculous Tory excuses being made against a backdrop of almost unanimous condemnation was followed by a hastily executed U-turn. It was a total shambles, and anyone guilty of trying to make the story about Jeremy Corbyn's Prime Minister's Questions performance is clearly attempting to deflect attention away from the abject incompetence of the actual government.

 

2. A record fine

 

The Tory party were handed a record ?70,000 fine for their dodgy election expenses during the 2015 General Election campaign. Not only did they misdeclare over ?100,000 in expenses as national rather than local expenses, they also totally failed to declare another ?100,000+ at all. The ?70,000 fine was less than one third of the value of the expenses they scammed, but the maximum allowable by law.

 

3. Criminal investigations

 

12 police forces have handed files to the Crown Prosecution Service over the 2015 Tory General Election fraud and Tory MPs are being interviewed under caution about their roles in the scandal. There is plenty of evidence that the Tory party broke the law by misdeclaring local campaign spending as national spending

 

It's becoming ever clearer that the Tories won the 2015 general Election with a coordinated breech of election spending rules designed to financially dope their way to victory in a load of marginal constituencies.  The only way the CPS can avoid accusations of a politically motivated whitewash will be to find some people to prosecute for the blatant criminality, which means they will have to decide whether to charge the MPs themselves, or their election agents. 

 

4. The NHS nursing crisis

 

Freedom of Information requests have revealed that the number of EU nurses quitting the NHS has risen to an all time high, while the number of new nurses arriving from the EU has slumped by 92%. Meanwhile there is a huge recruitment crisis going on as the number of British people applying to train as nurses has slumped by almost 10,000 as a result of Theresa May scrapping the NHS bursaries that helped trainee nurses qualify without assuming vast mountains of debt.

 

5. David Davis' admission

 

The Tory Brexit secretary David Davis made an absolutely extraordinary admission that very few people seem to have grasped the appalling significance of. As he was being grilled by the Brexit select committee Davis admitted that the Tory government have done absolutely no research into how bad a retaliatory hard Brexit would be for the UK economy and the British people. What makes this admission so extraordinary is that it shows that when Theresa May put on her tartan clown costume and made her do as we say or we'll blow up a 'hard Brexit' economic bomb threat to the EU, she hadn't even bothered to investigate how bad the economic damage will actually be if the EU call her bluff. 

 

6. Scotland

 

If there's one thing that's most likely to drive Scotland towards independence it's an English Tory Prime Minister expressing her determination to totally ignore Scottish democracy. The Scottish parliament will vote to hold an independence referendum to give the Scottish people the chance to escape the appalling consequences of a hard Tory Brexit that they voted so strongly against, and if Theresa May refuses to allow it because of her determination to drag Scotland out of the EU, and out of the Single Market against their will, she'll drive countless people into the welcoming arms of the Scottish independence campaign. 

 

David Cameron will always be remembered as the man who gambled the entire future of the UK in return for a little bit of short-term party political gain and lost. This week it's looking more and more likely that Theresa May is going to go down in history as the woman who's bossy authoritarianism ensured the break-up of the United Kingdom.

 

7. Child Poverty

 

The government's own figures revealed that 100,000 more children are living in poverty than last year. Of the 4 million children in the UK who are growing up in poverty, two thirds come from working families. As even more ideologically driven Tory cuts to in-work benefits really begin to bite over the next three years the child poverty rate looks set to continue increasing, and the proportion of kids in poverty from working families looks set to increase too.

 

Only the most savagely indifferent of Tory apologists could possibly try to argue that any kids, let alone kids from working families deserve to grow up in poverty.

 

8. Zero Hours Contracts

 

Office for National Statistics figures revealed that the number of UK workers on exploitative Zero Hours Contracts rose to an all time record high of 905,000, an increase of 13%.

 

Last year New Zealand banned Zero Hours Contracts, but in Tory Britain ever more people are finding themselves stuck in exploitative and unstable Zero Hours jobs.

 

9. The Housing crisis

 

The Office for National Statistics have revealed that UK houses are the least affordable they have ever been. Since 1997 house prices have risen 259% while wages have risen only 68% in the same period. This means that the the average house now costs 7.6x average annual earnings as compared to 3.6x in 1997.

 

In the 1980s the Tories used to bang on and on about the importance of home ownership, but nowadays the percentage of people who own their own home is in freefall, house prices have become the most unaffordable they've ever been, house building remains in the worst slump since the 1920s, a massive horde of virtually unregulated buy-to-let slumlords are cashing in on the crisis by renting appalling properties at sky-high rents, and last year the Tories voted down a bill to ensure that rented houses are fit for human habitation!.

 

39% of Tory MPs are landlords.

 

10. Ireland just shamed the UK

 

In January 2017 Theresa May scuttled off to the United States to lick Donald Trump's boots and beg him for a hastily cobbled-together trade deal for Brexit Britain. Her "begging bowl" speech was an absolute abomination.

 

In March 207 the Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny used his visit to America to lecture Donald Trump about the benefits of immigration as a swipe against Trump's immoral and brazenly unconstitutional anti-refugee policies.

 

Don't think that I like Enda Kenny's economic policies. I don't. But his backbone is admirable. Theresa May shamed Britain with her pathetic grovelling at the feet of a narcissistic bully with no respect whatever for basic human decency or the rule of law. Enda Kenny did the Irish proud by standing up for immigrants.

 

If the right-wing Prime Minister of our little neighbour Ireland can stand up to Trump, why on earth did Theresa May have to shame the United Kingdom by licking his boots so cravenly?

 

Conclusion

 

 

Red%2Bsquirrel.jpg

The Tory government is an absolute shambles. They're slow-marching us towards a catastrophic nuclear Brexit and the break-up of the United Kingdom; they just did possibly the biggest budget U-turn in living memory; they're trashing the NHS; they're overseeing huge spikes in child poverty and people in unstable work; they're under criminal investigation for cheating their way into power; they're overseeing an extraordinary house price inflation crisis; and Theresa May just got put to shame by the bloody Prime Minister of Ireland.

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maroonlegions

17264282_1389188757768923_91171514061125

 

 

                                                                                   :dotell:      :policeman:  :detective:

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manaliveits105

och aye the squeeky clean SNP 

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The Tartan Trump

och aye the squeeky clean SNP 

Bravo sir, a near perfect example of whataboutery.

 

There's a thread for kicking the SNP, this one is for kicking the Tories.

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Arnold Rothstein

Bravo sir, a near perfect example of whataboutery.

 

There's a thread for kicking the SNP, this one is for kicking the Tories.

 

:lol: And that thread is full of "....but...but....but, what about the big bad torys (sic)".

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Trapper John McIntyre

All this conspicuous Tory hate is sooo suspect.

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maroonlegions

The Tory lie of "fairness".

 

 

 

17342998_1498103653562876_42284301341090

 

 

 

17424705_1498101553563086_56242372215669

 

 

Osborne , its astounding and even  scary that this man can get so many highly paid jobs given his abject failure to meet any of his own targets.

 

Was part of the cabinet that instigated  welfare cuts for the vulnerable and mentally and disabled. :thumbsdown:

 

Serial liars the lot of them.

 

Some Tories will just put it to envy and jealously though.   :vrface:

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JamboX2

Did the Fraser of Allander not confirm that the budget had declined? At what point do you stop wanting to pay additional taxes to further public services given that the Tories intend further austerity? We shouldn't be penalized (correct spelling for me!) for the governments unneccessary austerity measures.

But austerity exists now as it is. A Scottish government with its deficit (quibble about figures of it elsewhere) will be implementing a similar approach. So are you then prepared to pay Mr MacKay an extra few pence a month to keep your libraries open and free personal care well resourced?

 

This isan issue which will come to a head either way the vote goes. We may actually have to decide if forwhat the state provides we wmare willing to pay more to keep it going or are open to graduate taxes (I'm pro that), paid prescriptions, bridge tolls and the like to allow for money to be spent on providing nurses, classroom assistants and first rate services.

 

Disagree with Trident point but acquiesce to the unified SNP stance.

If Faslane shrinks the supply economy (the corner shops in nearby towns for example) will be hit. Same would be true of shutting Rosyth on the Fife economy. Or historically Ravenscraig or the pitts in Lanarkshire. They shut and the ripple effect decimated communities.

 

There has to be a solid plan for these places in an independent Scotland or not because local communities will suffer if tgeir main industrial sites go.

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jambo lodge

The Tory lie of "fairness".

 

 

 

17342998_1498103653562876_42284301341090

 

 

 

17424705_1498101553563086_56242372215669

 

 

Osborne , its astounding and even  scary that this man can get so many highly paid jobs given his abject failure to meet any of his own targets.

 

Was part of the cabinet that instigated  welfare cuts for the vulnerable and mentally and disabled. :thumbsdown:

 

Serial liars the lot of them.

 

Some Tories will just put it to envy and jealously though.   :vrface:

 

Disgusting what G Osborne is doing but how many pensions/jobs does Eck have?

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luckydug

Disgusting what G Osborne is doing but how many pensions/jobs does Eck have?

 

No idea but I am pretty sure if it was anything substantial our friends in the Tory press would soon let us know about it.

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The Real Maroonblood

The Tory lie of "fairness".

 

 

 

17342998_1498103653562876_42284301341090

 

 

 

17424705_1498101553563086_56242372215669

 

 

Osborne , its astounding and even  scary that this man can get so many highly paid jobs given his abject failure to meet any of his own targets.

 

Was part of the cabinet that instigated  welfare cuts for the vulnerable and mentally and disabled. :thumbsdown:

 

Serial liars the lot of them.

 

Excellent post.

Some Tories will just put it to envy and jealously though.   :vrface:

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deesidejambo

 

The Tory lie of "fairness".

 

 

 

17342998_1498103653562876_42284301341090

 

 

 

17424705_1498101553563086_56242372215669

 

 

Osborne , its astounding and even  scary that this man can get so many highly paid jobs given his abject failure to meet any of his own targets.

 

Was part of the cabinet that instigated  welfare cuts for the vulnerable and mentally and disabled. :thumbsdown:

 

Serial liars the lot of them.

 

Excellent post.

Some Tories will just put it to envy and jealously though.   :vrface:

 

 

 

Absolutely not on.    He should be booted out of Parliament.   Its true that many MPs have significant income from other work but this is ridiculous.  There should be a limit to days allocated to external jobs, or at the very least external jobs can be permitted during the summer recess but thats it.

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luckydug

Another thing how can he possibly be giving all these jobs his full attention ?

Companies are obviously just employing him for the status his stint as Chancellor gives him. He will be collecting the huge salaries for these jobs while some other sucker does all the work.

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Sidsnot

Do you remember if it was revenue, GVA or some other measurement ?  I can get the GVA figures by region for 2011 > 2015 but going back 40 years seems more difficult to find.

From 1901 until 1922 Scotland put so much money into the English coffers that the English were too embarrassed and stopped keeping count of all the money sent down from here,Scotland.

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Doogz

From 1901 until 1922 Scotland put so much money into the English coffers that the English were too embarrassed and stopped keeping count of all the money sent down from here,Scotland.

 

Link ?

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Sidsnot

Link ?

Saw the link on twitter the other day,I'll try and find it.

Meanwhile......very interesting.

 

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Sidsnot

Found it.....apologies for the size.

zmfu3q.jpg

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Doogz

Found it.....apologies for the size.

zmfu3q.jpg

 

Thanks for that - appears the link is blocked at work but I'll have a read later.

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Thunderstruck

Absolutely not on. He should be booted out of Parliament. Its true that many MPs have significant income from other work but this is ridiculous. There should be a limit to days allocated to external jobs, or at the very least external jobs can be permitted during the summer recess but thats it.

I said a few days ago that it should be a free for all or a complete ban on any other employment.

 

Where do you draw the line?

Who draws the line?

 

I favour the complete ban. They wanted to be elected representatives, the voters gave them that trusted position and they should devote their entire energy to that role.

 

I also note that the SNP adherents have been silent on Salmond's array of paid extracurricular activities. Maybe that's #snpbad.

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Doogz

Found it.....apologies for the size.

zmfu3q.jpg

 

I think I've found the source of that info @ http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/GERS1921.xlsx

 

Unfortunately, it's missing the figures for both "revenue from England" & "Expenditure in England" that I'd really need to have a better understanding of how unfairly or not Scotland was being treated.

It also, doesn't include if money raised elsewhere was spent in Scotland, which would also have an impact on how the information would be interpreted.

Given the source is a pro-Scottish independence blogger I wouldn't be surprised if these details had been left out intentionally to help spin the story for pro-independence.

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Sidsnot

I think I've found the source of that info @ http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/GERS1921.xlsx

 

Unfortunately, it's missing the figures for both "revenue from England" & "Expenditure in England" that I'd really need to have a better understanding of how unfairly or not Scotland was being treated.

It also, doesn't include if money raised elsewhere was spent in Scotland, which would also have an impact on how the information would be interpreted.

Given the source is a pro-Scottish independence blogger I wouldn't be surprised if these details had been left out intentionally to help spin the story for pro-independence.

Not saying this as fact but it's quite possible a good few ??? went to the war effort.

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Doogz

Not saying this as fact but it's quite possible a good few ??? went to the war effort.

 

Yeah, I think that is a fair assumption and pretty much my point - unless Scotland were picking up an unreasonable %age of that then I don't think your original "Scotland put so much money into the English coffers" is fair.

We could get into the rights and wrongs of entering into WW1 but it was a British effort not just English so I'd expect Scotland to contribute to that financially.

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Nookie Bear

The Tory lie of "fairness".

 

 

 

17342998_1498103653562876_42284301341090

 

 

 

17424705_1498101553563086_56242372215669

 

 

Osborne , its astounding and even scary that this man can get so many highly paid jobs given his abject failure to meet any of his own targets.

 

Was part of the cabinet that instigated welfare cuts for the vulnerable and mentally and disabled. :thumbsdown:

 

Serial liars the lot of them.

 

Some Tories will just put it to envy and jealously though. :vrface:

Just shows how poor MP's pay is compared to what they can earn in the public sector (admittedly obscene numbers, mind)

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