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More Tory lies

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deesidejambo

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Had you pinned with the 'anyone but the SNP at all costs' crowd.

Nae probs. Interestingly it's possibly not in the SNPs interest to do well at Westminster because peeps like me may be happy for SNP to represent them at Westminster and if they do that well then less reason to go for Indy.

This is why imo the SNP get higher voter share in elections when compared to the Indy percentage.

 

Imo

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Hunky Dory

Nae probs. Interestingly it's possibly not in the SNPs interest to do well at Westminster because peeps like me may be happy for SNP to represent them at Westminster and if they do that well then less reason to go for Indy.

This is why imo the SNP get higher voter share in elections when compared to the Indy percentage.

Imo

Depends how you define 'doing well'. It seems that they are doing a better job of representing Scotland than Labour previously but even some of their more modest proposals/amendments are voted down irrespective of their individual merit.

 

Agree with the second paragraph.

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DanishTam10

What happened to your manifesto pledge of no more Tax hikes. NI hike for the self employed to align with PAYE employees without the same benefits. Are they gonnae give me holiday pay etc...???

 

LIARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Reform the council tax. SNP 2007

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Hunky Dory

Reform the council tax. SNP 2007

They were voted down by the other parties, but then, you already knew that.

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DanishTam10

They were voted down by the other parties, but then, you already knew that.

?Direct elections to Health Boards to give local people a say? - didn't happen

 

?2 hours of PE per week, free use of council swimming centres and a moratorium on the sale of playing fields?  - didn't happen

 

?Life Begins Health checks for those over 40? - ended in 2014

 

?We will set a target that no patient should wait longer than 18 weeks from GP referral to treatment by the end of 2011.?  - nope

 

?Presumption against the centralisation of core hospital services to protect local access to healthcare? - nope

 

?Delivery of a 50% increase in free nursery education for three and four year olds, smaller class sizes starting with a reduction in the first three years of primary education to 18 or less.? - nope

 

I could go on, with many of the SNP manifesto pledges. 

The SNP have been a disaster as a government.  And continue to lie.

 

More SNP lies

Edited by DanishTam10

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deesidejambo

They were voted down by the other parties, but then, you already knew that.

Can't they reintroduce? Personally I think the Council Tax is fairly decent anyway. It's based on house value so reasonably progressive.

 

What's the best alternative?

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DanishTam10

Can't they reintroduce? Personally I think the Council Tax is fairly decent anyway. It's based on house value so reasonably progressive.

 

What's the best alternative?

Firstly, because of the freeze, the Council tax became less progressive. (homeowners in prosperous areas paid less in comparison, to their poorer countrymen and women)

 

Secondly, the bands have not changed for many years. Which also meant it was less progressive. 

 

The 2017/2018 year marks a change, no compulsory council tax freeze, and I think the bands have seen some re-assessment.

 

So no- the council tax is not progressive. see here http://localtaxcommission.scot/

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Hunky Dory

Can't they reintroduce? Personally I think the Council Tax is fairly decent anyway. It's based on house value so reasonably progressive.

What's the best alternative?

I would like to see it, they probably haven't proposed an alternative due to the freeze. A system based on land value would be fairer, there's a few interesting papers out there supporting that.

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Thunderstruck

EU, 'extensive' new powers, shipbuilding, public sector jobs, social security, carbon capture, renewables, EVEL etc.

 

Just a few Tory promises broken in the last 18 months in relation to Scotland.

Missed this, did you?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-39217222

 

As of today, there are 2 more growing out of the fabrication hall and work in the new Frigates has started.

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JamboX2

Depends how you define 'doing well'. It seems that they are doing a better job of representing Scotland than Labour previously but even some of their more modest proposals/amendments are voted down irrespective of their individual merit.

 

Agree with the second paragraph.

On the bit in bold, this really does bug me. They are not there to represent Scotland. They are there to represent the interests of their constituents. So they are there to represent Edinburgh North and Leith, to represent Banff and Buchan, Inverness, Western Isles, Coatbridge, Glasgow South and the rest and to do so with those localised seats and their interests first. Not Scotland. We need to stop homogenising Scotland's varied and differentlocal needs as one.

 

I agree the SNP are much more vocal and prominent but they seem to operate as a block group. Plus the inability to defy party policy is to me counter intuitive to their duties to their seats.

 

All imo of course.

 

I would say on NI, if this had happened with an extension of rights to self employed people there would be a trade off and it'd be more palatable. However, Labour missed a huge goal there in their response to the budget and again Corbyn's leadership have allowed this to go unpunished. Hammond is only acting so fast and loose because he has nothing to fear from Corbyn/McDonnell. Labour have started to rediscover a good vision to take to the people but those two need emptied for the good of the party and the nation to provide a stronger opposition.

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JamboX2

They were voted down by the other parties, but then, you already knew that.

But... the SNP didn't want to agree to Liberal Democrat proposals to make it a locally set rate. They wanted to bring it in nationally and have the Finance Minister set the rate nationally.

 

If they'd been perhaps more committed to localisation then they'd have got it through.

 

However, definitely with you on a Land Value Tax but I'd look to be giving much more tax power to local government and to really empower local government. Government closer to the peoples needs will deliver better results on public health, transport, schools and local services. Time to trust not hamstring local government.

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mutley

But... the SNP didn't want to agree to Liberal Democrat proposals to make it a locally set rate. They wanted to bring it in nationally and have the Finance Minister set the rate nationally.

 

If they'd been perhaps more committed to localisation then they'd have got it through.

 

However, definitely with you on a Land Value Tax but I'd look to be giving much more tax power to local government and to really empower local government. Government closer to the peoples needs will deliver better results on public health, transport, schools and local services. Time to trust not hamstring local government.

Are you saying we should give more responsibility to Edinburgh council?

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JamboX2

Are you saying we should give more responsibility to Edinburgh council?

Yes.

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mutley

Yes.

Don't think you'll get many people agreeing to that. Remember that time they spent all our money on a tram line to the detriment of every other public service.

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JamboX2

Don't think you'll get many people agreeing to that. Remember that time they spent all our money on a tram line to the detriment of every other public service.

That tram line situation is much more complicated an issue than just being the council's fault.

 

Scottish cities need to be given more power like Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham have because if not they'll be left behind those cities.

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Malinga the Swinga

That tram line situation is much more complicated an issue than just being the council's fault.

Scottish cities need to be given more power like Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham have because if not they'll be left behind those cities.

That might or might not be true, and I have very little knowledge of those who run Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham, but Imwouod not be inclined to allow those in power at Edinburgh district council any more power than it takes to open a door because they are a selfish bunch of deluded halfwits whose sole intention is to raise their personal profiles to the detriment of everything else. People like Hinds don't deserve to be allowed to quit, she should have been sacked for the complete mess she has made of her department and the city.

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Space Mackerel

Didn't take long for this and the usual suspects to turn it into another SNP thread.

 

Meanwhile, leaked documents show Surrey County Council given ?40 million to call of their threat of a referendum.

 

May has been lying to Parliament.

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Malinga the Swinga

Didn't take long for this and the usual suspects to turn it into another SNP thread.

Meanwhile, leaked documents show Surrey County Council given ?40 million to call of their threat of a referendum.

May has been lying to Parliament.

sorry can't take anything you say seriously since you accused USA of faking attack on pentagon and filling missile with dead bodies. You are an imbecile Edited by Malinga the Swinga

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Space Mackerel

sorry can't take anything you say seriously since you accused USA of faking attack on pentagon and filling missile with dead bodies. You are an imbecile

76c5dc7baebcd8b5330dc09409b7e009.jpg

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Hunky Dory

On the bit in bold, this really does bug me. They are not there to represent Scotland. They are there to represent the interests of their constituents. So they are there to represent Edinburgh North and Leith, to represent Banff and Buchan, Inverness, Western Isles, Coatbridge, Glasgow South and the rest and to do so with those localised seats and their interests first. Not Scotland. We need to stop homogenising Scotland's varied and differentlocal needs as one.

I agree the SNP are much more vocal and prominent but they seem to operate as a block group. Plus the inability to defy party policy is to me counter intuitive to their duties to their seats.

All imo of course.

I would say on NI, if this had happened with an extension of rights to self employed people there would be a trade off and it'd be more palatable. However, Labour missed a huge goal there in their response to the budget and again Corbyn's leadership have allowed this to go unpunished. Hammond is only acting so fast and loose because he has nothing to fear from Corbyn/McDonnell. Labour have started to rediscover a good vision to take to the people but those two need emptied for the good of the party and the nation to provide a stronger opposition.

Fair enough although slightly pedantic, by definition they are representing the interests of Scotland through the support of individual constituencies.

 

They are a new batch of MPs, mostly recruited on the back of the referendum. I would like to believe that most of them have the same beliefs on the back of that shared experience. They also, with no exceptions, seem to occupy the left.

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Thunderstruck

When you're promised 12 and they reduce that number to 8, it's still a broken promise.

Bullsh1t. You lot look for the tiniest reason to be aggrieved and then ignore anything that is good news.

 

In this case you conveniently ignore the development to follow the 26s and their potential for international sales.

 

I'm sure the RN's decision to relocate all of the SSN Squadron to Scotland did not feature in any "promise" but, lo and behold.

 

Not just the boats but the infrastructure and associated jobs.

 

Can you confirm if you applaud that investment.

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IronJambo

What happened to your manifesto pledge of no more Tax hikes. NI hike for the self employed to align with PAYE employees without the same benefits. Are they gonnae give me holiday pay etc...???

 

LIARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They're only asking you to pay an extra ?240pa. You're only going to hide another ?5k of your earnings to get it back so why are you crying?

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Malinga the Swinga

Bullsh1t. You lot look for the tiniest reason to be aggrieved and then ignore anything that is good news.

In this case you conveniently ignore the development to follow the 26s and their potential for international sales.

I'm sure the RN's decision to relocate all of the SSN Squadron to Scotland did not feature in any "promise" but, lo and behold.

Not just the boats but the infrastructure and associated jobs.

Can you confirm if you applaud that investment.

Of course no applause will be frorthcoming. Any decision Westminster makes that benefits Scotland or gives Scotland jobs is taken as a minimum and something we automatically deserved anyway.

 

Any decision that means jobs in rest of UK is bad for Scotland and proves that we are constantly ignored and put down.

 

Such bitterness and pettiness that is basically the politics of envy.

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Malinga the Swinga

What happened to your manifesto pledge of no more Tax hikes. NI hike for the self employed to align with PAYE employees without the same benefits. Are they gonnae give me holiday pay etc...???

LIARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doubt they will to be honest. In the meantime, what happened to the SNP pledge to reduce classroom sizes in primary schools? Is that one broken or just ignored?

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Hunky Dory

Bullsh1t. You lot look for the tiniest reason to be aggrieved and then ignore anything that is good news.

In this case you conveniently ignore the development to follow the 26s and their potential for international sales.

I'm sure the RN's decision to relocate all of the SSN Squadron to Scotland did not feature in any "promise" but, lo and behold.

Not just the boats but the infrastructure and associated jobs.

Can you confirm if you applaud that investment.

I'm sorry but if the government PROMISED 12, and reduced that number to 8 then it's a broken promise.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-37861162

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Hunky Dory

Of course no applause will be frorthcoming. Any decision Westminster makes that benefits Scotland or gives Scotland jobs is taken as a minimum and something we automatically deserved anyway.

Any decision that means jobs in rest of UK is bad for Scotland and proves that we are constantly ignored and put down.

Such bitterness and pettiness that is basically the politics of envy.

Where's the bitterness in that post? Scotland were promised something for a No vote, only for the government to renege thus placing thousands of jobs at risk.

 

'Aye but if Scotland voted for independence, there would be no shipbuilding contract'. No doubt this will be the retort.

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Malinga the Swinga

Where's the bitterness in that post? Scotland were promised something for a No vote, only for the government to renege thus placing thousands of jobs at risk.

'Aye but if Scotland voted for independence, there would be no shipbuilding contract'. No doubt this will be the retort.

Do you and your fellow supporters actually go through every manifesto,more cord every pledge/promise and then watch closely through the years to see if they are met or not. You could say it is a pledge met with reduced terms but circumstances change and if you don't agree, then fair enough.

 

Can we have a list of all pledges from SNP and see how they are doing or are the SNP immune from monitoring?

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Captain Sausage

Doubt they will to be honest. In the meantime, what happened to the SNP pledge to reduce classroom sizes in primary schools? Is that one broken or just ignored?

You'll not get an answer to this one...

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Hunky Dory

Do you and your fellow supporters actually go through every manifesto,more cord every pledge/promise and then watch closely through the years to see if they are met or not. You could say it is a pledge met with reduced terms but circumstances change and if you don't agree, then fair enough.

Can we have a list of all pledges from SNP and see how they are doing or are the SNP immune from monitoring?

This wasn't a manifesto pledge. It was a promise that if Scotland voted No, 12 frigates would be built on the Clyde thus securing jobs. If someone promised to secure my livelihood and then reneged, I'd be irked.

 

I've never voted for the SNP but given half the electorate voted for them last time around, it would appear that their supporters are happy with their governance of Scotland.

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Hunky Dory

What do you care, this is UK politics and you can't be bothered staying here.

I've answered your narrow-minded assertion on the other thread.

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Malinga the Swinga

I've answered your narrow-minded assertion on the other thread.

I have read it. Some twaddle about studying abroad to improve family prospects. What about staying in Scotland or is our education not good enough for you. You make mention of your property and investments. So you have property here that you don't stay in and presumably rent out for profit. Not exactly the fair society you preach about. In fact, that sounds exactly like Tory ideals.

 

 

Anyway, you have chosen to leave Scotland, you don't stay here and therefore whatever you say or believe about Scotland is irrelevant. You are in fact, the exact type of person who makes me ashamed to be Scottish. Only interested in yourself, whilst preaching about fairness and caring. What a hypocrite. What a first class, uncaring selfish piece of work you really are.

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Hunky Dory

I have read it. Some twaddle about studying abroad to improve family prospects. What about staying in Scotland or is our education not good enough for you. You make mention of your property and investments. So you have property here that you don't stay in and presumably rent out for profit. Not exactly the fair society you preach about. In fact, that sounds exactly like Tory ideals.

Anyway, you have chosen to leave Scotland, you don't stay here and therefore whatever you say or believe about Scotland is irrelevant. You are in fact, the exact type of person who makes me ashamed to be Scottish. Only interested in yourself, whilst preaching about fairness and caring. What a hypocrite. What a first class, uncaring selfish piece of work you really are.

I got my degree in Scotland, the masters program was not available through UK universities. I have family staying in the property that I own.

 

Any other aspersions?

 

The negativity and vitriol really adds a nice gloss to your posts.

Edited by Hunky Dory

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Hunky Dory

Oh, and I've dedicated my life to public service so there's nothing hypocritical about my approach to life.

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JamboX2

Fair enough although slightly pedantic, by definition they are representing the interests of Scotland through the support of individual constituencies.

 

They are a new batch of MPs, mostly recruited on the back of the referendum. I would like to believe that most of them have the same beliefs on the back of that shared experience. They also, with no exceptions, seem to occupy the left.

Your second point has me scratching my head. If they were of the left I'd have expected much more of a push back on their own Holyrood government's poor budget which is cutting funds and not using devolved tax powers.

 

Not pedantic at all. For arguments sake the SNP national need may be to abolish Trident but that doesn't serve the needs of the people in the seat of Argyle and Bute well given a large proportion of the local economy is reliant on the highly skilled work there and the supply chain therein. Yet the MP cannot under party rules side with his/her constituents needs there. Same goes on all other policy areas.

 

We must not blur national and local needs. People in Leith have different needs from government than that of Sutherland and Caithness. The issue I have is the prevalence of the "Scotland is local" mantra of the SNP. It's not and local needs should be increasingly the bread and butter of our debates. Not Scotland. It's not a homogenous state.

Edited by JamboX2

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niblick1874

On the bit in bold, this really does bug me. They are not there to represent Scotland. They are there to represent the interests of their constituents. So they are there to represent Edinburgh North and Leith, to represent Banff and Buchan, Inverness, Western Isles, Coatbridge, Glasgow South and the rest and to do so with those localised seats and their interests first. Not Scotland. We need to stop homogenising Scotland's varied and differentlocal needs as one.

 

I agree the SNP are much more vocal and prominent but they seem to operate as a block group. Plus the inability to defy party policy is to me counter intuitive to their duties to their seats.

 

All imo of course.

Globalism eh.

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Hunky Dory

Your second point has me scratching my head. If they were of the left I'd have expected much more of a push back on their own Holyrood government's poor budget which is cutting funds and not using devolved tax powers.

Not pedantic at all. For arguments sake the SNP national need may be to abolish Trident but that doesn't serve the needs of the people in the seat of Argyle and Bute well given a large proportion of the local economy is reliant on the highly skilled work there and the supply chain therein. Yet the MP cannot under party rules side with his/her constituents needs there. Same goes on all other policy areas.

We must not blur national and local needs. People in Leith have different needs from government than that of Sutherland and Caithness. The issue I have is the prevalence of the "Scotland is local" mantra of the SNP. It's not and local needs should be increasingly the bread and butter of our debates. Not Scotland. It's not a homogenous state.

Perhaps they feel that utilizing their extremely limited, tax raising, devolved powers to further mitigate Tory cuts is not acceptable. As the annual budget for Scotland decreases, should the SNP penalize people further through tax increases, is that you're purporting? We're looking at annual decreases for the remainder of the Tory government, where will tax increases stop?

 

As for Trident, a FOI established that there were only 500 jobs directly supported by its existence in Scotland. I'd rather have the removal of nuclear weapons from our shores in exhange for those jobs and the ludicrous amount of money the replacement is costing over its lifespan. It would appear that many others, including the SNP, share this belief.

 

I believe that SNP members are capable of free-thought, however all the new members joined shortly after 2014. It's quite likely that they share ideas thanks to the referendum experience that initially brought them together.

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deesidejambo

Perhaps they feel that utilizing their extremely limited, tax raising, devolved powers to further mitigate Tory cuts is not acceptable. As the annual budget for Scotland decreases, should the SNP penalize people further through tax increases, is that you're purporting? We're looking at annual decreases for the remainder of the Tory government, where will tax increases stop?

 

As for Trident, a FOI established that there were only 500 jobs directly supported by its existence in Scotland. I'd rather have the removal of nuclear weapons from our shores in exhange for those jobs and the ludicrous amount of money the replacement is costing over its lifespan. It would appear that many others, including the SNP, share this belief.

 

I believe that SNP members are capable of free-thought, however all the new members joined shortly after 2014. It's quite likely that they share ideas thanks to the referendum experience that initially brought them together.

The tax raising powers are not extremely limited, they are more than flexible enough to raise significant revenue.

 

But after years of whining they then didn't use the powers to create a more progressive fiscal approach.

 

Because they themselves are Tories.

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Hunky Dory

I'm not denying that there is a strong party whip in place in order to provide a united front, I just feel that most of them got into politics for the same reasons.

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deesidejambo

I'm not denying that there is a strong party whip in place in order to provide a united front, I just feel that most of them got into politics for the same reasons.

All this does is stifle free thinking and stop local isssues being considered as much as they should.

 

The SNP should have a united front in Indy that's fine, but not on governance.

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Hunky Dory

The tax raising powers are not extremely limited, they are more than flexible enough to raise significant revenue.

But after years of whining they then didn't use the powers to create a more progressive fiscal approach.

Because they themselves are Tories.

They are limited only to income tax, flexibility would have allowed Scotland to raise taxes in other areas to cover shortfalls.

 

The offer of devolving income tax is a clear trap. The Tories would love to see Scotland ramping up its taxes to mitigate their annual austerity measures. The net result would Scots paying more tax and getting less back from London which would have no end as the Tories could just turn the screw tighter.

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Hunky Dory

All this does is stifle free thinking and stop local isssues being considered as much as they should.

The SNP should have a united front in Indy that's fine, but not on governance.

All the new members joined shortly after 2014. It's quite likely that they share ideas thanks to the referendum experience that initially brought them together.

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deesidejambo

All the new members joined shortly after 2014. It's quite likely that they share ideas thanks to the referendum experience that initially brought them together.

Of course they will share ideas and ideologies. But they are not allowed to share differences or go against the party line. That is not good governance

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Hunky Dory

Of course they will share ideas and ideologies. But they are not allowed to share differences or go against the party line. That is not good governance

In your opinion.

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deesidejambo

In your opinion.

Of course. Are people not allowed to have them in your view? Your opinion of me is I make stuff up and lie. You are entitled to it.

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