Even More SNP Nonsense

[Roxy Hearts]

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Sorry but your post is contradictory.  You say Scotland is barely represented in WM then chose to name four people, two of whom are Scottish,  one of whom is the leader of a major political party.  Both are openly critical of the SNP but I don’t hear them being critical of Scotland, the two things are not the same.  Can you give examples.  

 

Also before Cameron the two previous prime ministers were Scottish so given the relative populations of Scotland versus the UK I would say that’s a fairly Healthy position.  

 

You say that Scotland never gets the government it votes for.  However the SNP being only a Scottish based party could never form a UK government (obviously I know I am stating the obvious).  The next biggest party in Scotland was the conservatives who are the current government.  Without those 13 Scottish seats the conservatives could not have claimed victory and been in a position to get a majority.  So clearly Scotland has had a huge influence.  

 

Also if labour and the SNP agreed an alliance after the election, as has been discussed,  how could you claim that Scotland has no influence in WM?

 

there I a number of reasons why I can see the merits of Scottish independence (although don’t agree!!!) but I think Scotland clearly does have an influence in WM given the SNP are the third largest party and I think throwing that sound bite out doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.  

Thanks for response BJ. British and Scottish are different to me. Those I mentioned are British who couldn't care less about Scotland. If you want an example, they think we can't manage our own affairs and are fiercely, contortedly opposed. "Lead us don't leave us", EVEL.

That in itself says a lot. I don't want the SNP propping up the Labour Party at WM but I would accept it for more self governance so in this instance there is some influence. 

 

I see merits in the UK. I just think Scotland is moving in a different direction. That's how it feels. Trying to express something on a forum that comes from your gut is difficult! Cheers anyway. 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Eh, we reapply!

 

So are you saying we wont get back in then?

 

 

Scotland has never been in the EU so they will have to apply for the first time. 

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Scotland has never been in the EU so they will have to apply for the first time. 

Semantics. 
Its an old argument. Scotland will be welcomed with open arms. No doubt. Most of the EU’s chiefs have already said as much over the years since 2012. 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Scotland has never been in the EU so they will have to apply for the first time. 

 

Semantics, but so what?  Apply or re-apply, it's still an application.

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Semantics. 
Its an old argument. Scotland will be welcomed with open arms. No doubt. Most of the EU’s chiefs have already said as much over the years since 2012. 

 

Just pointing out your willingness or even enthusiasm to be inaccurate. 

[Pans Jambo]

4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Just pointing out your willingness or even enthusiasm to be inaccurate. 

 

[JackLadd]

Shock horror Sturge hates the deal. Her cultists will follow follow whatever she says of course. 

[manaliveits105]

not even a member of parliament

whae cares 

[jack D and coke]

16 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Shock horror Sturge hates the deal. Her cultists will follow follow whatever she says of course. 

The DUP don’t like it and won’t support it. Throws NI under a bus. 
Farage hates it too. 
All about the Sturge tho😉

 

[JackLadd]

11 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The DUP don’t like it and won’t support it. Throws NI under a bus. 
Farage hates it too. 
All about the Sturge tho😉

 

 

The Sturge wants no deal to herd sheep into her Iref2 fantasy. She will blame BoJo and evil Tories of course. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

The Sturge wants no deal to herd sheep into her Iref2 fantasy. She will blame BoJo and evil Tories of course. 

If you believe in an indy Scotland it doesn’t make you anymore of a sheep than any other political view. 
The DUP hate it and won’t support it. Farage says it’s worse than Teresa May’s deal. Johnson is bullshitting imo and you can’t see that, does that make you a sheep too? A union sheep?

[frankblack]

17 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The DUP don’t like it and won’t support it. Throws NI under a bus. 
Farage hates it too. 
All about the Sturge tho😉

 

 

The DUP are pissing off their own electorate and wouldn't accept anything less than Brexit with no change in customs terms - something not on the table to negotiate for.  Hopefully we can claw back that bribe May gave them.

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

 

 

You make me chuckle with the guff you spout constantly on this thread. 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The DUP are pissing off their own electorate and wouldn't accept anything less than Brexit with no change in customs terms - something not on the table to negotiate for.  Hopefully we can claw back that bribe May gave them.

You know all about the NI electorate? 
I think the English resentment to anybody having the audacity to try have any say whatsoever other than doing what they want will see the break up of the Union. 
Ive long thought Scotland etc will get their Indy when England decides and I believe that is getting closer. We’ve always been ignored but not anymore. 
I read a piece in the telegraph last week that claimed NI is nothing more than a burden on English taxpayers anyway and mustn’t stand in the way of brexit. I read more and more of them wanting shot off us too because we’ve had the gall to try stop their English brexit. It’s now clear to me it’s never been a Union in any way whatsoever, the noise will get louder to empty us too. 
I’m finding it all very amusing I must admit. 

[frankblack]

12 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

You know all about the NI electorate? 
I think the English resentment to anybody having the audacity to try have any say whatsoever other than doing what they want will see the break up of the Union. 
Ive long thought Scotland etc will get their Indy when England decides and I believe that is getting closer. We’ve always been ignored but not anymore. 
I read a piece in the telegraph last week that claimed NI is nothing more than a burden on English taxpayers anyway and mustn’t stand in the way of brexit. I read more and more of them wanting shot off us too because we’ve had the gall to try stop their English brexit. It’s now clear to me it’s never been a Union in any way whatsoever, the noise will get louder to empty us too. 
I’m finding it all very amusing I must admit. 

 

Nope.  Sheer desperation from you there attempting to align NI with the Scottish separatists when they wouldn't touch your lot with a barge pole.

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Nope.  Sheer desperation from you there attempting to align NI with the Scottish separatists when they wouldn't touch your lot with a barge pole.

I want absolutely **** all to do with them an all believe me  

My point being is they will be offloaded like we will because we’ve now got too much to say. 

[Iamborg]

42 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

The Sturge wants no deal to herd sheep into her Iref2 fantasy. She will blame BoJo and evil Tories of course. 

Supporting Boris makes you a ****in idiot .

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Iamborg said:

Supporting Boris makes you a ****in idiot .

He is, acts a bit Sevco . What a laughing stock the UK has become. I find it incredulous that people living in Scotland still want to be governed by a real bunch of fools from WM. The SNP have a great chance to win their arguments but they seem to be playing a "suck it and see" game. We know that most people couldn't give a toss about politics but it's becoming a joke. 

[Iamborg]

19 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

He is, acts a bit Sevco . What a laughing stock the UK has become. I find it incredulous that people living in Scotland still want to be governed by a real bunch of fools from WM. The SNP have a great chance to win their arguments but they seem to be playing a "suck it and see" game. We know that most people couldn't give a toss about politics but it's becoming a joke. 

It's the way some  find fault with the SNP while ignoring the cheating lying pieces of shite in Westminster ! 

 

I was going to go on a rant but I better not ! 

[frankblack]

30 minutes ago, Iamborg said:

It's the way some  find fault with the SNP while ignoring the cheating lying pieces of shite in Westminster ! 

 

I was going to go on a rant but I better not ! 

 

There is plenty wrong at Westminster, most notably your gobshites with a grievance complex that will vote against everything any government proposes to make themselves feel relevant.

 

If you look at their record at Holyrood it doesn't stand up well.  One issue party with a shocking record of failures, most recently the new Sick Kids project.

[Pans Jambo]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

There is plenty wrong at Westminster, most notably your gobshites with a grievance complex that will vote against everything any government proposes to make themselves feel relevant.

 

If you look at their record at Holyrood it doesn't stand up well.  One issue party with a shocking record of failures, most recently the new Sick Kids project.

Yayy Westminster 

[Iamborg]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

There is plenty wrong at Westminster, most notably your gobshites with a grievance complex that will vote against everything any government proposes to make themselves feel relevant.

 

If you look at their record at Holyrood it doesn't stand up well.  One issue party with a shocking record of failures, most recently the new Sick Kids project.

I'm not a great fan of the SNP but ****me only an idiot could vote Tory or Labour .

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, Iamborg said:

I'm not a great fan of the SNP but ****me only an idiot could vote Tory or Labour .

 

Same goes for the SNP.

 

I voted Lib Dems to stop the SNP getting in at Edinburgh West. 

[gjcc]

Oh look the “One Issue Party” nonsense has cropped up again.  

[frankblack]

The SNP are absolutely papping it now, and their desperation is embarassing:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50084610

 

The SNP is to call for a three month extension to Brexit to allow time to hold a general election.

Ian Blackford, the party's Westminster leader, has tabled an amendment to Saturday's motion in the Commons, rejecting the new Brexit deal.

He also calls for an extension until at least 31 January 2020, allowing for an early election.

 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Same goes for the SNP.

 

I voted Lib Dems to stop the SNP getting in at Edinburgh West. 

Don't drink in the Cori Inn or I will seek you out 😂

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

There is plenty wrong at Westminster, most notably your gobshites with a grievance complex that will vote against everything any government proposes to make themselves feel relevant.

 

If you look at their record at Holyrood it doesn't stand up well.  One issue party with a shocking record of failures, most recently the new Sick Kids project.

Compared to what, f#£%ing Westminster? 

[shaun.lawson]

16 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

 

You do have a problem but I guess its something intensive therapy can help with.

 

Its clear from your desperation to play the man that you accept that a deal kicks Indy into touch?

 

An absolutely preposterous point of view. Terrifyingly myopic.

 

The deal destroys the UK. That's why the DUP won't support it. That's why unionists throughout Northern Ireland are in disbelief at it. A border down the Irish Sea moves a united Ireland a gigantic step closer, and makes it increasingly inevitable.

 

Also as part of the deal: Northern Ireland, which voted to Remain, gets special treatment.. while Scotland, which also voted to Remain, is dragged out against its will. To say that's constitutionally unsustainable would be the understatement of the century.

 

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is falling apart right before our eyes, its death warrant signed by the Prime Minister... and you think it's all about the SNP?!  indeed.

[Jambo_Gaz]

3 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

An absolutely preposterous point of view. Terrifyingly myopic.

 

The deal destroys the UK. That's why the DUP won't support it. That's why unionists throughout Northern Ireland are in disbelief at it. A border down the Irish Sea moves a united Ireland a gigantic step closer, and makes it increasingly inevitable.

 

Also as part of the deal: Northern Ireland, which voted to Remain, gets special treatment.. while Scotland, which also voted to Remain, is dragged out against its will. To say that's constitutionally unsustainable would be the understatement of the century.

 

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is falling apart right before our eyes, its death warrant signed by the Prime Minister... and you think it's all about the SNP?!  indeed.

 

[jamb0_1874]

12 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Ive long thought Scotland etc will get their Indy when England decides and I believe that is getting closer. We’ve always been ignored but not anymore. 
I read a piece in the telegraph last week that claimed NI is nothing more than a burden on English taxpayers anyway and mustn’t stand in the way of brexit. I read more and more of them wanting shot off us too because we’ve had the gall to try stop their English brexit. It’s now clear to me it’s never been a Union in any way whatsoever, the noise will get louder to empty us too. 
I’m finding it all very amusing I must admit. 

 

An alternative view would be to liken it to the business world were the directors sit down and go through each shop they own and see how much they are bringing in and what it's costing to keep it open, then deciding if it's viable or not. There maybe a point when Westminster does the same assessing what everybody is bringing to the English coffers and comparing it to what it's costing them, then deciding whether it's worth holding onto it or not. The concern is if/when the majority decide that they don't want to keep Scotland anymore and Scotland is cut adrift if there is still enough meat on the bones for it to not to only survive but to proposer. There are lots of management buy outs that go on to become great success stories, however there are some amount of train wrecks also.

[ri Alban]

12 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

The Sturge wants no deal to herd sheep into her Iref2 fantasy. She will blame BoJo and evil Tories of course. 

A no voting Brexiter. Very weird.

[ri Alban]

10 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

There is plenty wrong at Westminster, most notably your gobshites with a grievance complex that will vote against everything any government proposes to make themselves feel relevant.

 

If you look at their record at Holyrood it doesn't stand up well.  One issue party with a shocking record of failures, most recently the new Sick Kids project.

Independent and EU membership all rolled into one. Your bitter tears are fecking very enjoyable. Libdem voter now Voted Yes, anaw, I Heard. Sure ye did!

 

[ri Alban]

13 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

not even a member of parliament

whae cares 

Farage?

[frankblack]

7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

An absolutely preposterous point of view. Terrifyingly myopic.

 

The deal destroys the UK. That's why the DUP won't support it. That's why unionists throughout Northern Ireland are in disbelief at it. A border down the Irish Sea moves a united Ireland a gigantic step closer, and makes it increasingly inevitable.

 

Also as part of the deal: Northern Ireland, which voted to Remain, gets special treatment.. while Scotland, which also voted to Remain, is dragged out against its will. To say that's constitutionally unsustainable would be the understatement of the century.

 

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is falling apart right before our eyes, its death warrant signed by the Prime Minister... and you think it's all about the SNP?!  indeed.

 

 

You missed the point on so many levels.

 

It doesn't matter from our perspective what happens in Westminster if the separatists have dragged Scotland out of the UK without any kind of plan (as they don't want to announce it fearing it gets ripped to shreds like their infamous White Paper).

 

Any kind of soft brexit deal kicks their Indy 2 prospects into touch for the foreseeable future.

 

[jack D and coke]

58 minutes ago, jamb0_1874 said:

 

An alternative view would be to liken it to the business world were the directors sit down and go through each shop they own and see how much they are bringing in and what it's costing to keep it open, then deciding if it's viable or not. There maybe a point when Westminster does the same assessing what everybody is bringing to the English coffers and comparing it to what it's costing them, then deciding whether it's worth holding onto it or not. The concern is if/when the majority decide that they don't want to keep Scotland anymore and Scotland is cut adrift if there is still enough meat on the bones for it to not to only survive but to proposer. There are lots of management buy outs that go on to become great success stories, however there are some amount of train wrecks also.

Yeah England doesn’t need anybody. 
The small nations are where all the defecit comes from England is in the black. 

[jamb0_1874]

21 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah England doesn’t need anybody. 
The small nations are where all the defecit comes from England is in the black. 

 

The thing is that attitude only works until there is nothing else to blame then it will need to start looking at itself. How often do you hear about branches and satellite offices closing before anything happens at head office, however head office is where most of the costs are incurred.

 

[Des Lynam]

The SNP's parliamentary leader, Ian Blackford, said opposition parties need to "quit dithering, back our amendment, and finally act to bring this appalling Tory government down and stop Brexit".

 

 

Whilst calling for an Independence referendum. 
 

That’s democracy for you. 

[jack D and coke]

23 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

The SNP's parliamentary leader, Ian Blackford, said opposition parties need to "quit dithering, back our amendment, and finally act to bring this appalling Tory government down and stop Brexit".

 

 

Whilst calling for an Independence referendum. 
 

That’s democracy for you. 

Why won’t the SNP call for Indy? It’s why they exist...when will people get that through their head. 
Have you read some of the details of Boris’ deal btw? It’s laughable yet he has the media onside. 
AGAIN. 

[Des Lynam]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Why won’t the SNP call for Indy? It’s why they exist...when will people get that through their head. 
Have you read some of the details of Boris’ deal btw? It’s laughable yet he has the media onside. 
AGAIN. 

It’s like everyone has forgotten all about May’s deal trying to get through Parliament. 

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

 

You missed the point on so many levels.

 

It doesn't matter from our perspective what happens in Westminster if the separatists have dragged Scotland out of the UK without any kind of plan (as they don't want to announce it fearing it gets ripped to shreds like their infamous White Paper).

 

Any kind of soft brexit deal kicks their Indy 2 prospects into touch for the foreseeable future.

 

Like banging your head against a brick wall.

 

Soft deal, No deal, Hard deal, Norway or Canada style deal.

 

WE HAVE THE BEST DEAL AS A PART OF THE EU RIGHT NOW AND IT CANT BE BEATEN!

 

The Scots paper on Indy will be published for scrutiny soon enough. Can you tell me what the prospectus on Brexit looked like???

 

Naw?

 

Funny that. Unyet you Boris brown nosers and Westminster apologists voted for it hook line and sinker. A complete fantasy.

 

Roll on a pround Independent Scotland that takes its place at the EU table of narions. Proper grown up country ran by folk who want the best for their citizens unlike Rees-Mogg, Boris and Farrage etc in London who just want to support their wealthy chums.

 

I wont change your mind and I'm not trying to but FFS Frank, you cant polish a turd, the Tories and Brexit are a disaster from every angle but hey, SNP Bad right?

[jack D and coke]

46 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

It’s like everyone has forgotten all about May’s deal trying to get through Parliament. 

Worse than May’s ffs. 
Incredible. 

[Des Lynam]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Worse than May’s ffs. 
Incredible. 

There is that much jiggery pokery going on it’s hard to work where we stand. On the face of it Johnson’s deal is one you would think certainly benefits the people of Northern Ireland but the DUP for obvious reasons say no to it. 
 

He’s never going to get this through. Then what? A general election? That could change the face of politics forever. 
 

And all because that girly swot Cameron was trying to shut up UKIP. 

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

And all because that girly swot Cameron was trying to shut up UKIP. 

BOOM!

 

Right there!

 

Then the tory loving newspapers, brown nosers & idiots fell in line and here we are!

[Boris]

Merkel saying EU should grant an extension if deal fails in parliament and UK asks for an extension.

 

Which Johnson is legally obliged to do...

 

You have to laugh...

[Pans Jambo]

9 minutes ago, Boris said:

Merkel saying EU should grant an extension if deal fails in parliament and UK asks for an extension.

 

Which Johnson is legally obliged to do...

 

You have to laugh...

You do but I think thats exactly what might happen...

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

You do but I think thats exactly what might happen...

 

Oh, me too!

 

And rightly so, imo.

 

 

[jack D and coke]

52 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

There is that much jiggery pokery going on it’s hard to work where we stand. On the face of it Johnson’s deal is one you would think certainly benefits the people of Northern Ireland but the DUP for obvious reasons say no to it. 
 

He’s never going to get this through. Then what? A general election? That could change the face of politics forever. 
 

And all because that girly swot Cameron was trying to shut up UKIP. 

 

[Boris]

Interesting opinion piece from Ruth Wishart

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/18/second-referendum-scottish-independence-brexit-scots

 

 

[coconut doug]

On 16/10/2019 at 09:28, shaun.lawson said:

 

It was also part of being Scottish. Your total inability to acknowledge this basic point is more instructive than you'll ever know.

 

 

And what were these values? Clans who constantly fought each other and could never agree on anything? Landowners who held vassals and forced them to fight - and die - 500 ****ing years after this was going on in England? Darien? Was that a 'traditional Scottish value'? I guess it must've been. 

 

Some other quick thoughts:

 

1. Daisley's article had a fair amount of merit but he's a right wing troll normally best ignored.

 

2. Politically, Scotland *is* more progressive than England - but not half as much as too many of its people seem to think.

 

3. The number of non-white people in Scotland remains shockingly low... and since the dawn of time, the rule for all humanity has been: the less people mix with others who don't look like them, the more ignorant and bigoted their views are likely to be. That goes for huge swathes of England too. And the US. And Europe. Fearful, anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim views are most commonly held by people who... live far away from immigrants and Muslims. Scotland is not miraculously immune to that. 

 

4. The SNP's record on education is an absolute disgrace. Its record on drug deaths is shocking too. Yet it's about a million times more inclusive and grown-up a government than its Westminster counterpart; it at least tries to act in the interests of the people, wholly unlike the Tories. And on drugs, it doesn't have the power to change the law: which is the only way the West will ever get a grip of this issue. 

 

5. Given the never-ending chaos around Brexit (reports this morning that the chances of a deal are fading again), I am absolutely astonished that support for independence is still only at 50%. Other than Scots viewing the horrible nightmare of the UK seeking to extricate itself from a political union and thinking "nah, you're alright thanks", I cannot get my head around it at all. 

 

I have commented extensively on this appalling polemic by Daisley. I have read the article again and unlike you i can find nothing to commend it. If you want to know what I think and challenge me on any specific point then read my posts at the time. The whole thing is deliberately misleading (that’s his style) and lacks any sense of context, fairness or even balance but I must admit he has an excellent ability to appear reasonable to those who can’t or won’t make efforts to ascertain facts.

  Daisley gets carried away though in his frenzy of Strawmen, conflations, omissions, distortions, exaggerated extrapolations and all manner of rhetological fallacies so much so IMO that he loses track of reality starts believing his own propaganda and ends up telling lies. 

           I give you one example Daisley claims “Scotland was also an unabashed slave-trading nation, including before its entry into the Union,” I can find no information on this except for one Scotsman a captain in the English Navy but I would be delighted to know more. If somebody were to demonstrate Daisley’s claim was substantively correct it would at least allow me to see him a little differently. I refute your claim and support Roxy’s view that slavery was not part of being Scottish but only carried out by Scots after the union, unless you know different obviously.  Of course if you are unable to produce evidence to support  your view then I would have to conclude that  “Your total inability to acknowledge this basic point is more instructive than you'll ever know.”.

 

    There were no slaves at Darien either and had Scotland wished to get involved in the slave trade it would have been extremely difficult as Scotland was the main target for the English Navigation Laws, the restrictiveness of which prevented Scotland from trading effectively in many areas for many years and was the major reason for political unity in 1707. I’m not sure why you are rhetorically asking me if Darien was an example of Scottish values, IMO clearly it was but you sound as if you know different, perhaps you could tell me why you think that way.

 

         Interestingly this University of Strathclyde report https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/26339/  quotes Scotland’s “clan cohesion” as being a reason for Scotland being a threat to the English control of mercantile trade and this contrasts somewhat with your notion of “Clans who constantly fought each other and could never agree on anything?” Could it be perhaps that Scottish society, like everybody else’s is capable of evolving ? Your claim that England is 500 years ahead is a difficult one for me too. Sure England seems to have taken a different path but to suggest as you do that this put them 500 years further down the evolutionary road is extremely speculative. I might have been better persuaded if there had been a similar emphasis on education in England as there was in Scotland. Of course that is not to say that everything was splendid in Scotland (an accusation often made sarcastically on here if anybody suggests Scotland or the Scots might be good at anything) but generally the standards in Scotland were higher and the franchise wider. We had 5 universities before England had 3 and studied a wider and more relevant range of subject matter than Oxford or Cambridge. Seems to me we still have a different view as to what education is and what it should be, naturally you and many others assume that the current model in England is superior to ours, with little or no evidence to support your claims.

 

   I am intrigued as to your third point and suggestion that Scotland has a shockingly low number of non – white people. I don’t think it shocking at all. Scotland has a substantial non-white population and a large immigrant population in general. There are nearly half a million immigrants from the rest of the British Isles too. Glasgow has a larger percentage of Asians than Yorkshire and Humberside but so what, who cares what colour a person’s skin is? You do apparently as evidenced by your comments on isolated communities and the fear and bigotry they have for people who “do not look like them”.

 

   Scotland is of course more isolated than England and this is your attempt to explain to us that there must be high levels of racism in Scotland because Scotland is more isolated and it is a natural process that the more isolated you are the more “ignorant” and the more of a “bigot” you are likely to be. This is an interesting theory which you describe as “a rule for all humanity”. Do you have any evidence to support it and any means of showing how it relates to Scotland? I doubt you do because the figures show Scotland has significantly better race relations and that things are improving here and worsening in England where clearly the larger numbers of non – whites has not led to the indigenous population becoming less ignorant and bigoted. IMO the theory is ludicrous, racial prejudice is learned behaviour, it is a social construct and in no way a natural process as you are suggesting. Could it just be that there is a different set of social values in England to that of Scotland and might it actually be that there is more racism in England? The figures seem to suggest it. That is not to say that things can’t change after all some Scots seemed to go for slavery in a big way after the union when we had little or no involvement previously, a new set of values imposed from elsewhere might help us to change our attitude to immigrants too, but not always for the better.

 

   I wonder if you are aware that Scotland has been until recently an exporter of people with the population remaining largely static for decades. Hardly surprising then that there is a smaller proportion of immigrants to the country. England’s population has risen markedly in recent years and that has been entirely due to immigration. The suggestion that Scotland has fewer non –white residents because we are more ignorant and bigoted is really quite offensive. We haven’t had the same number of immigrants for a number of reasons but primarily because there hasn’t been the same level of opportunity for many.

  As far as I am aware nobody sensible ever suggests that Scotland is “miraculously immune “ to anything never mind racism. This is your and other’s strawman. You are claiming that we think Scotland is perfect and by making this claim you can easily refute it and in your mind, and those who are disposed to your way of thinking, can justify your often repeated claim that we who would stick up for Scotland and maybe even (perish the thought) criticise England are incapable of rational thought and reasoned argument. It’s actually really tiresome to have to continually point this out.

 

   I’m afraid that your notion that Scotland is ignorant and bigoted because of its isolation cannot be substantiated and neither can it be partially excused or explained because  “That goes for huge swathes of England too.”. I assume that by these huge swathes of England you mean o/s London and other large urban areas. Diversity measurement is complex and Scotland and England generally have different patterns. Comparing us to England is not helpful and if you have been to many English cities you will see some evidence of ghettoization that doesn’t happen here.  http://bemis.org.uk/docs/code-census-briefing-scotland_v2.pdf

 

       The SNP’s record on education is no more of a disgrace than those that went before. Things have not changed very much in terms of outcomes despite the faux outrage of the opposing parties and right wing press. One good thing though IMO is that children are much more socially responsible when it comes to environmental issues, race and attitudes to other minority groups than many older people.

[shaun.lawson]

14 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

I have commented extensively on this appalling polemic by Daisley. I have read the article again and unlike you i can find nothing to commend it. If you want to know what I think and challenge me on any specific point then read my posts at the time. The whole thing is deliberately misleading (that’s his style) and lacks any sense of context, fairness or even balance but I must admit he has an excellent ability to appear reasonable to those who can’t or won’t make efforts to ascertain facts.

  Daisley gets carried away though in his frenzy of Strawmen, conflations, omissions, distortions, exaggerated extrapolations and all manner of rhetological fallacies so much so IMO that he loses track of reality starts believing his own propaganda and ends up telling lies. 

           I give you one example Daisley claims “Scotland was also an unabashed slave-trading nation, including before its entry into the Union,” I can find no information on this except for one Scotsman a captain in the English Navy but I would be delighted to know more. If somebody were to demonstrate Daisley’s claim was substantively correct it would at least allow me to see him a little differently. I refute your claim and support Roxy’s view that slavery was not part of being Scottish but only carried out by Scots after the union, unless you know different obviously.  Of course if you are unable to produce evidence to support  your view then I would have to conclude that  “Your total inability to acknowledge this basic point is more instructive than you'll ever know.”.

 

    There were no slaves at Darien either and had Scotland wished to get involved in the slave trade it would have been extremely difficult as Scotland was the main target for the English Navigation Laws, the restrictiveness of which prevented Scotland from trading effectively in many areas for many years and was the major reason for political unity in 1707. I’m not sure why you are rhetorically asking me if Darien was an example of Scottish values, IMO clearly it was but you sound as if you know different, perhaps you could tell me why you think that way.

 

         Interestingly this University of Strathclyde report https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/26339/  quotes Scotland’s “clan cohesion” as being a reason for Scotland being a threat to the English control of mercantile trade and this contrasts somewhat with your notion of “Clans who constantly fought each other and could never agree on anything?” Could it be perhaps that Scottish society, like everybody else’s is capable of evolving ? Your claim that England is 500 years ahead is a difficult one for me too. Sure England seems to have taken a different path but to suggest as you do that this put them 500 years further down the evolutionary road is extremely speculative. I might have been better persuaded if there had been a similar emphasis on education in England as there was in Scotland. Of course that is not to say that everything was splendid in Scotland (an accusation often made sarcastically on here if anybody suggests Scotland or the Scots might be good at anything) but generally the standards in Scotland were higher and the franchise wider. We had 5 universities before England had 3 and studied a wider and more relevant range of subject matter than Oxford or Cambridge. Seems to me we still have a different view as to what education is and what it should be, naturally you and many others assume that the current model in England is superior to ours, with little or no evidence to support your claims.

 

   I am intrigued as to your third point and suggestion that Scotland has a shockingly low number of non – white people. I don’t think it shocking at all. Scotland has a substantial non-white population and a large immigrant population in general. There are nearly half a million immigrants from the rest of the British Isles too. Glasgow has a larger percentage of Asians than Yorkshire and Humberside but so what, who cares what colour a person’s skin is? You do apparently as evidenced by your comments on isolated communities and the fear and bigotry they have for people who “do not look like them”.

 

   Scotland is of course more isolated than England and this is your attempt to explain to us that there must be high levels of racism in Scotland because Scotland is more isolated and it is a natural process that the more isolated you are the more “ignorant” and the more of a “bigot” you are likely to be. This is an interesting theory which you describe as “a rule for all humanity”. Do you have any evidence to support it and any means of showing how it relates to Scotland? I doubt you do because the figures show Scotland has significantly better race relations and that things are improving here and worsening in England where clearly the larger numbers of non – whites has not led to the indigenous population becoming less ignorant and bigoted. IMO the theory is ludicrous, racial prejudice is learned behaviour, it is a social construct and in no way a natural process as you are suggesting. Could it just be that there is a different set of social values in England to that of Scotland and might it actually be that there is more racism in England? The figures seem to suggest it. That is not to say that things can’t change after all some Scots seemed to go for slavery in a big way after the union when we had little or no involvement previously, a new set of values imposed from elsewhere might help us to change our attitude to immigrants too, but not always for the better.

 

   I wonder if you are aware that Scotland has been until recently an exporter of people with the population remaining largely static for decades. Hardly surprising then that there is a smaller proportion of immigrants to the country. England’s population has risen markedly in recent years and that has been entirely due to immigration. The suggestion that Scotland has fewer non –white residents because we are more ignorant and bigoted is really quite offensive. We haven’t had the same number of immigrants for a number of reasons but primarily because there hasn’t been the same level of opportunity for many.

  As far as I am aware nobody sensible ever suggests that Scotland is “miraculously immune “ to anything never mind racism. This is your and other’s strawman. You are claiming that we think Scotland is perfect and by making this claim you can easily refute it and in your mind, and those who are disposed to your way of thinking, can justify your often repeated claim that we who would stick up for Scotland and maybe even (perish the thought) criticise England are incapable of rational thought and reasoned argument. It’s actually really tiresome to have to continually point this out.

 

   I’m afraid that your notion that Scotland is ignorant and bigoted because of its isolation cannot be substantiated and neither can it be partially excused or explained because  “That goes for huge swathes of England too.”. I assume that by these huge swathes of England you mean o/s London and other large urban areas. Diversity measurement is complex and Scotland and England generally have different patterns. Comparing us to England is not helpful and if you have been to many English cities you will see some evidence of ghettoization that doesn’t happen here.  http://bemis.org.uk/docs/code-census-briefing-scotland_v2.pdf

 

       The SNP’s record on education is no more of a disgrace than those that went before. Things have not changed very much in terms of outcomes despite the faux outrage of the opposing parties and right wing press. One good thing though IMO is that children are much more socially responsible when it comes to environmental issues, race and attitudes to other minority groups than many older people.

 

Er... um... is this how it feels when someone reads one of my posts?