Even More SNP Nonsense

[ri Alban]

26 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

No. Because they were not. Indentured labour yes. Not much better than being a slave but not a slave.

"Red Legs" in Barbados, their descendants still poor even by Barnadian standards.

The homeless across the UK were scooped up and we're put into slavery. FACT!

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

What Are you talking about? You said Nationalist (you really need to find a better word or phrase here) posters are in denial with a capital D when their shite about how different Scots are from the racist xenophobic English runs into some facts. What facts and what are we denying?

 

  

 

 

Apologies for selective quoting but it was a long post. If you don't like "nationalist myths" how about "national myths". Scotland has more than its fair share of those, including the idea that Scots are peculiarly immune from racism and xenophobia.

[ri Alban]

15 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Apologies for selective quoting but it was a long post. If you don't like "nationalist myths" how about "national myths". Scotland has more than its fair share of those, including the idea that Scots are peculiarly immune from racism and xenophobia.

Who says this. Everyone knows the unionists in Scotland are sectarian, racist xenophobes. Tell us something we don't know.

Edited August 26, 2019 by ri Alban

[Francis Albert]

16 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Who says this. Everyone knows the unionists in Scotland are sectarian, racist xenophobes. Tell us something we don't know.

You "know that" or rather believe that. Everyone doesn't.

[The Mighty Thor]

As is often the case with anything Daisley writes, its all anti-SNP hyperbole and fact light.

This one is a doozy. I think he probably started the article with some idea of what he wanted to say and by the time he got halfway through he's realised he's talking out his arse and rattled it off to a pointless crescendo. As per.

Was Scotland culpable in historic slavery? Yes. I suspect you'd go far to find anyone who would deny that. 

Does this bear any relevance to the SNP or scotish independence? No.

The direction of travel of modern Scotland is very different to that of England and he doesn't like that one bit.  Perhaps he might want to look into why that is and I can tell him it's got **** all to do with slave trading. 

[ri Alban]

47 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

No need to be embarrassed. Just don't deny it or pretend that Scots were mere victims of English/Brit colonialism. As you often have.

Oh really, what about the 50000 Scottish slaves taken to Barbados by Cromwell. The Scottish sugar slaves the first slaves out there. Not Africans. But hey, keep up the British propaganda. 👍

[Francis Albert]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Oh really, what about the 50000 Scottish slaves taken to Barbados by Cromwell. The Scottish sugar slaves the first slaves out there. Not Africans. But hey, keep up the British propaganda. 👍

Indentured labourers and servants were certainly victims. They were not slaves.

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Indentured labourers and servants were certainly victims. They were not slaves.

 

 

 

They came later. So much denial.

[ri Alban]

9 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Indentured labourers and servants were certainly victims. They were not slaves.

 

 

 

Scotland's sugar slaves. PoWs. Look it up FA. You might learn something.

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

They came later. So much denial.

True the slaves came later. They were owned indefinitely as property. That is they were slaves. The indentured labourers and servants were either forced or "volunteered" loosely speaking for fixed terms. Horrible and inhumane but describing it as slavery is plain wrong... and arguably a bit of an insult to the truly enslaved

 

[Roxy Hearts]

Does he have anything to say about the Highland Clearances and the murdering of Scottish people including women and children? Can we have an apology from the rancid British state please! Thick idiot.

[Francis Albert]

32 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Does he have anything to say about the Highland Clearances and the murdering of Scottish people including women and children? Can we have an apology from the rancid British state please! Thick idiot.

Or maybe from Scottish landowners who were responsible for the clearances?

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Or maybe from Scottish landowners who were responsible for the clearances?

Duke of Cumberland a Scottish landowner? I did say British which covers treacherous Scots. 

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Duke of Cumberland a Scottish landowner? I did say British which covers treacherous Scots. 

"Treacherous Scots = British"

Many of the responses to Daisley, and even more so to (I believe) Edinburgh born Kay, make the point more eloquently than either of them.

 

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Apologies for selective quoting but it was a long post. If you don't like "nationalist myths" how about "national myths". Scotland has more than its fair share of those, including the idea that Scots are peculiarly immune from racism and xenophobia.

 

As i have said before this is not a view i am familiar with. Many of us were racist in the past but many of us have come to realise how repugnant our views were. There are still some though who still hold more traditional views but i honestly believe they are very small in number across the whole of the UK but quite representative of some groups. It really is unacceptable to express racist or anti- semitic views in public i suppose that's why i never hear them and is maybe why there is a myth that we are not racist when we really are. A bit like that Tory election slogan "are you thinking what i'm thinking" seems we were not in Scotland if the Tory vote is anything to go by. 

[Roxy Hearts]

40 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

"Treacherous Scots = British"

Many of the responses to Daisley, and even more so to (I believe) Edinburgh born Kay, make the point more eloquently than either of them.

 

Yes, British. They fought against their fellow Scots. Scots were also part of the slave trade and should apologise but that was also part of being British. Any person who's a racist isn't a particularly pleasant individual. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Roxy Hearts

[coconut doug]

3 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Yes, British. They fought against their fellow Scots. Scots were also part of the slave trade and should apologise but that was also part of being British. Any person who's a racist isn't a particularly pleasant individual. 

 

It's almost as if traditional Scots' values were subsumed in the new British state. 

[The Mighty Thor]

57 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

 

Many of the responses to Daisley, and even more so to (I believe) Edinburgh born Kay, make the point more eloquently than either of them.

 

What point is that FA?

 

It is standard Daisley fodder. He's like a shit unionist 'wings' type character with the daily mail as his medium. It probably plays well with his readership, but remember that's the same readership that thinks the UK is about to be overrun with Turks & Bulgarians and that anyone who doesn't think exiting Europe with no deal is a smart idea is a collaborator or traitor. 

 

[coconut doug]

1 minute ago, Zlatanable said:

What are these 'traditional Scots' values' please?

 

He was talking about the Clearances and i was talking about the clansman's rights to the land. The Runrig system.

 

http://www.angusmacleodarchive.org.uk/view/index.php?path=%2F1.+History+of+Lewis%2F2.+Land+Ownership+and+Crofting%2F1.+The+Clan+System+in+the+Highlands+and+Islands.pdf

[Roxy Hearts]

21 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

What are these 'traditional Scots' values' please?

Whatever Scots traditional values we had have been anglicised I expect. Good education, financial thrift, predominantly law abiding. Scots are different I think but it's more of a feeling and a frustration that things could be better. Democracy in the UK is a bit of a sham and a shame. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

What point is that FA?

 

It is standard Daisley fodder. He's like a shit unionist 'wings' type character with the daily mail as his medium. It probably plays well with his readership, but remember that's the same readership that thinks the UK is about to be overrun with Turks & Bulgarians and that anyone who doesn't think exiting Europe with no deal is a smart idea is a collaborator or traitor. 

 

I had never heard of Daisley before reading this article. It seemed to me a reasonable critique of certain Scottish attitudes familiar from reading this thread and  good defence of Kay who I assume knows something of what she speaks.

 

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I had never heard of Daisley before reading this article. It seemed to me a reasonable critique of certain Scottish attitudes familiar from reading this thread and  good defence of Kay who I assume knows something of what she speaks.

 

I’ve never read a single positive article about Scotland by Daisley. 

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

I’ve never read a single positive article about Scotland by Daisley. 

I haven't read any article before by Daisley. I didn't think this one was negative about Scotland.

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Zlatanable said:

Is being 'positive' about Scotland all you need in a political journalist?

Of course not. You’d think he’d maybe write one or two though.

Are you Jambo in Hamilton under a new guise incidentally? 

 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

I haven't read any article before by Daisley. I didn't think this one was negative about Scotland.

It wasn’t positive. He hasn’t a good thing to say about anything up here imo. 

[Roxy Hearts]

30 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

so there are no Scots' values in Scotland anymore, and the ones you think were here were 'Good education, financial thrift, predominantly law abiding.'

 

 

Are they not values? 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

So if political journalists can't say anything nice, they should be ignored or something? 

 

Of course not. He’s never got anything decent to say about Scotland though. Surely, occasionally you’d have something positive to say? 

He’s not a fan of the the SNP, fair enough but he just seems to find negatives everywhere about Scotland. I don’t buy the mail but my old man does and I’ll flick through it for a laugh and his column is constantly negative. The guy is a ****in dick imo. Is that ok for you now? Am I allowed to hold that opinion or are you going to ask me another silly question? 

[Francis Albert]

10 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It wasn’t positive. He hasn’t a good thing to say about anything up here imo. 

I thought it was positive. The image of Scotland as a tolerant beacon for the world or even the UK is a lie and needed to be called out. The defence of Kay was entirely positive IMO.

 

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, Zlatanable said:

so are there any 'traditional Scots' values left, do you think, other than those ones?

 

Those values died out when we were made part of the UK that's the point, things move on. 

 

It may come as a surprise to you but the nature of the landscape and environment  has a significant bearing on the social structure of a place. Scotland is no exception.  

 

What do you think? 

[Pans Jambo]

On 24/08/2019 at 08:54, Who_put_the_ball_in... said:

So Scotland will change so dramatically we will see a 12billion swing in our national deficit 

When Scotland is Independent do you think the English coffers will suddenly be £60+Bn a year better off once they are rid of us?

 

 

[Francis Albert]

That the abuse of Kay's views has attracted no comment says a lot  to me about our tolerance and openness.

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

That the abuse of Kay's views has attracted no comment says a lot  to me about our tolerance and openness.

Didn't read much of it to be honest. Saw who posted and thought not another Scot bashing! There's intolerance everywhere and none of it should be condoned. My best mate at school was black and some of the abuse he got was atrocious from fellow Scots. Not everyone was like that but there are some absolute morons in society. 

[coconut doug]

31 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I thought it was positive. The image of Scotland as a tolerant beacon for the world or even the UK is a lie and needed to be called out. The defence of Kay was entirely positive IMO.

 

 

The defence of Kay in what sense? She undoubtedly  had a horrendous experience but her observations are wrong. Slavery and its legacy is taught, in history, in Scotland. It is absolutely alright to ask people where they are from in polite conversation and to suggest that attitudes in Scotland's cities are 30 or 40 years behind doesn't stand up when the figures for hate and race crime are compared.

 

       Don't you accept the numbers in the graph i posted for your benefit? Don't you accept that there were spikes in racial attacks around the time of the EU referendum in England and that these attacks did not happen in Scotland? Don't you think that there is a significant racist element to the Brexit vote? 

 

 This cannot be considered a positive article about Scotland unless you have an abysmally low opinion of the country in the first place.

 

He asserts that we don't talk about racism because we cannot "face up to it" and you endorse his view. Don't you understand just how toxic racist and homophobic views are amongst young people in Scotland and elsewhere? All this guy is doing is a rehash of the notion that because we want to be independent we don't like people who are not Scots. We are Nationalist, we are socialist therefor we are national socialists and so was Hitler and we are just like him, that's why we cannot "face up to it". That's it, that's his game, it's the Daily Mail's game. They should know how it works, they supported Hitler and the Nazis a few years ago.

[coconut doug]

25 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

What values though? 

 

Can you not see that land tenure was an issue and that under the clan system clansmen had a right to that land. Do you understand the differing relationships between the people and their monarchs that existed in Scotland and England? Do you know whose values prevailed? Can you see why these things are important and how they have shaped our country?

 

What do you think?

[coconut doug]

27 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

That the abuse of Kay's views has attracted no comment says a lot  to me about our tolerance and openness.

 

Who abused Kay's views and how were they abused?

[coconut doug]

5 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

So #indyref2 is about restoring land rights to the upper class?

 

You are being ridiculous. That wasn't the argument. In any case the land rights were with the clansmen.

 

What do you think?

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Of course not. He’s never got anything decent to say about Scotland though. Surely, occasionally you’d have something positive to say? 

He’s not a fan of the the SNP, fair enough but he just seems to find negatives everywhere about Scotland. I don’t buy the mail but my old man does and I’ll flick through it for a laugh and his column is constantly negative. The guy is a ****in dick imo. Is that ok for you now? Am I allowed to hold that opinion or are you going to ask me another silly question? 

Zlatanable? Every post is a question. Every single one. He should change his name to ?

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I thought it was positive. The image of Scotland as a tolerant beacon for the world or even the UK is a lie and needed to be called out. The defence of Kay was entirely positive IMO.

 

Yeah, Scotland is half full of British Unionist, Loyalist, Royalist, Sectarian, Racist, xenophobes. It's amazing how the Scots tolerate these people.

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I had never heard of Daisley before reading this article. It seemed to me a reasonable critique of certain Scottish attitudes familiar from reading this thread and  good defence of Kay who I assume knows something of what she speaks.

 

But what is the point that is being so well illustrated?

 

Scots are historial slave trade denying racists to a man? Really?

 

Here's the nub that poor Stephen and many others can't get their heads around; wanting to break free from the yoke of Westminster does not make Scots anti-English or anti anyone else for that matter. 

Here's the other bit that sticks in Daisleys craw, Scotland and England are moving apart socially and politically and the days of a United kingdom are numbered, whether that takes 5 years or 50 years it will happen.

[Justin Z]

9 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

I haven't been asking you silly questions my friend. 

 

7 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

So #indyref2 is about restoring land rights to the upper class?

 

7 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Do you think every single person in Scotland pre-1707 belonged to a clan, and had an equitable right to land? 

 

You made the claim in the first quote but just about every single post before and since was a strawman in the form of a question. It's in bad faith; you know it is; give it a rest.

[Who_put_the_ball_in...]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Yeah, Scotland is half full of British Unionist, Loyalist, Royalist, Sectarian, Racist, xenophobes. It's amazing how the Scots tolerate these people.

Says a guy that supports a party that is built on hating one group of people.

[Who_put_the_ball_in...]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Yeah, Scotland is half full of British Unionist, Loyalist, Royalist, Sectarian, Racist, xenophobes. It's amazing how the Scots tolerate these people.

[Justin Z]

14 minutes ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said:

Says a guy that supports a party that is built on hating one group of people.

 

Westminster politicians for which Scotland is barely a second thought? Ooh, how terrible.

 

That guy in your photo is a well known nutter who got immediate condemnation for his banner. You know how I know you're not arguing in good faith? ☝🏻

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Justin Z
in

[Who_put_the_ball_in...]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Westminster politicians for which Scotland is barely a second thought? Ooh, how terrible.

 

That guy is your photo is a well known nutter who got immediate condemnation for his banner. You know how I know you're not arguing in good faith? ☝🏻

 

That guy is your photo? 

[jack D and coke]

25 minutes ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said:

That photo is a huge embarrassment to any normal Scottish person. 

But it’s nothing to do with the SNP. 

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said:

Says a guy that supports a party that is built on hating one group of people.

 

Surely that must be a massive improvement. We are being told on here how racist we are but it seems to me we've done well top get it down to only one group. BTW Who is that group?

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said:

Says a guy that supports a party that is built on hating one group of people.

I think your wee picture avatar says it all.

 

5 hours ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said:

That took me ages to make.

[Who_put_the_ball_in...]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I think your wee picture avatar says it all.

 

That took me ages to make.

Why I’m half Northern Irish on my Dads side does that offend you? Should we tell Michael Smith to stop turning out for his country?

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

5 hours ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said:

Says a guy that supports a party that is built on hating one group of people.

I notice you have an almost Gers related icon. 

[Who_put_the_ball_in...]

5 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I notice you have an almost Gers related icon. 

Do I? Which one is that?