Even More SNP Nonsense

[Doogz]

16 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

Couple of good links

http://www.stuartmaclennan.co.uk/2018/06/brexit-and-devolution-a-quick-primer/

 

Further proof that the seemingly honest, realistic Growth Commission is still trying to pull the wool over people's eyes

http://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2018/06/growth-commission-simple-mistake.html

 

As for Spacey's suggestion that unionists follow some Yes supporters and listen to what they have to say, I do this regularly. I listen to podcasts by Indy people, read what the national has to say etc. and it just makes me more "no"

 

Recently for example I was listening to some old dodder from Pensioners For Indy. He said people were most worried about their pension in an Indy Scotland and so he had a print out of a letter from the government (the one which has been confirmed by the government via an FOI to be not accurate) and he shows that to old folk to convince them. He is also making little leaflets spreading the same misinformation. It is this kind of thing that bugs me. If it is proven something is wrong, it shouldn't be used any further. He also dismissed GERS and said he is going to try and find another source of information. I find it laughable really, but only because there is thankfully a majority who can smell bullshit a mile off. Social media is dumbing down the population to the point that people just repeat things without understanding. 

 

I want to hear both sides of the argument because only by doing that can I make a balanced decision based on logic and evidence. 

 

Another great post - it amazes (and disappoints me) that the pro-indy side (who claim to love Scotland and its people more than the nasty unionists) so often will resort to lying and deflection to try and avoid an open, fact based debate. 

[Hasselhoff]

17 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

To say an ndependent Scotland would have 10 years of Austerity thats worse than it is now is just good old scaremongering. 

 

I agree if Scotland performs EXACTLY as it is now then yes, it probably would need to tighten its belt somewhat however; Scotland being able to set its own agenda and attract inward investment and be in control of its own affairs would change things somewhat from the status quo. 

 

Experts - People who con you into thinking they have superior knowledge and experience in a particular field when in proven reality, they ken heehaw!!!

 

Predictions that are positive invariably turn out to be negative and that is the key here.  

Nationalists are saying we won't have any austerity which is nonsense. Why won't Andrew Wilson respond to the detailed takedown of his report? Simple, he is a PR man who hyped up RBS just before the crash. 

 

We know the relatively accurate estimates (GERS) on how Scotland does at the moment and our problem is we spend too much. We get annual £10bn fiscal transfer from the UK. You talk about Scotland changing the way we do things but that is easy said. In order to tighten the belt to cut that back it would mean massive austerity. People say"we will lose trident" but that is is £200m a year. Still got billions to go. Taxing people more will earn peanuts too, we don't have enough high earners here in Scotland and if they try going after those who are, they will head south. 

 

For all the hatred of Mogg, Johnson and Gove etc. that encourages people to vote yes, there are A lot of Scots who can't stand Sturgeon, Derek Mackay, Humza Yousef etc. 

 

Personalities come and go. Decisions shouldn't be made just because of a few people who may be nothing in a few years time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thunderstruck]

2 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

You know when you listen to the chancellor’s speech on budget day. He slavers pish about how he sees the economy will perform over the next 4 or 5 years. How much the defecit will be and how much borrowing will be needed and what he will be spending and what he thinks inflation etc will look like and what he will do to keep it in check blah blah blah. 

 

EXPERTS! Thats right, EXPERTS! Financial experts help him come to his conclusions that he then sets out his budget and delivers it at the ballot box on budget day. 

 

My question is this: In all the time that this has been going on...has ANY chancellor EVER got ANY of his predictions correct?

 

Is it not true that they say borrowing will be ‘X’ and you then find out it usually ends up being worse. He says spending will be ‘Y’ and it usually ends up being wrong. 

 

This has went on for as long as I can remember DESPITE the raft of departments and ‘experts’ behind the chancellor. 

 

To say an ndependent Scotland would have 10 years of Austerity thats worse than it is now is just good old scaremongering. 

 

I agree if Scotland performs EXACTLY as it is now then yes, it probably would need to tighten its belt somewhat however; Scotland being able to set its own agenda and attract inward investment and be in control of its own affairs would change things somewhat from the status quo. 

 

Experts - People who con you into thinking they have superior knowledge and experience in a particular field when in proven reality, they ken heehaw!!!

 

I hope that you are able to convince yourself because the above is fooling nobody else; OK, maybe Spacey but that’s not really a ringing endorsement. 

 

It is an exercise in wishful thinking - hope is still not a strategy and certainly not when real lives, real livelihoods, real jobs will be at risk. If, as seems increasingly likely, Scotland would face an indefinite (up to a “generation”) of real austerity, would you be willing to risk that future for others for some romantic notion?

 

Primum non nocere - First, do no harm. 

[Boris]

12 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Primum non nocere - First, do no harm. 

 

And there's the rub. The union, at this point in time, would appear to not be following that maxim. 

 

 

[Thunderstruck]

17 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

And there's the rub. The union, at this point in time, would appear to not be following that maxim. 

 

 

 

Disagree. But, supposing you were correct, the maxim relates to the treatment of an ailment - should you effect a cure if it will further harm the patient. 

 

The current and damaging ailment affecting Scotland is the SNP Government. We are now at the business end of 11 (eleven) years of mismanagement which is doing little to better the lives of ordinary Scots. For goodness sake, even Sturgeon admitted to 10 years of “austerity” in Scotland - the Tories have only been in power for 8 of those years. 

 

The cure for that ill is not, I suggest, giving the Fox the entire run of the hen-house. 

 

For the record, the same maxim applies to the nonsensical attempt to leave the EU. Curing the imaginary ailment should not have been undertaken without a good prognosis. 

[Space Mackerel]

[Captain Sausage]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Disagree. But, supposing you were correct, the maxim relates to the treatment of an ailment - should you effect a cure if it will further harm the patient. 

 

The current and damaging ailment affecting Scotland is the SNP Government. We are now at the business end of 11 (eleven) years of mismanagement which is doing little to better the lives of ordinary Scots. For goodness sake, even Sturgeon admitted to 10 years of “austerity” in Scotland - the Tories have only been in power for 8 of those years. 

 

The cure for that ill is not, I suggest, giving the Fox the entire run of the hen-house. 

 

For the record, the same maxim applies to the nonsensical attempt to leave the EU. Curing the imaginary ailment should not have been undertaken without a good prognosis. 

 

Top post, as usual. 

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I hope that you are able to convince yourself because the above is fooling nobody else; OK, maybe Spacey but that’s not really a ringing endorsement. 

 

It is an exercise in wishful thinking - hope is still not a strategy and certainly not when real lives, real livelihoods, real jobs will be at risk. If, as seems increasingly likely, Scotland would face an indefinite (up to a “generation”) of real austerity, would you be willing to risk that future for others for some romantic notion?

 

Primum non nocere - First, do no harm. 

Experts running our finances in Westminster get it wrong every time. 

 

Feel free to ignore that fact though. 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Disagree. But, supposing you were correct, the maxim relates to the treatment of an ailment - should you effect a cure if it will further harm the patient. 

 

The current and damaging ailment affecting Scotland is the SNP Government. We are now at the business end of 11 (eleven) years of mismanagement which is doing little to better the lives of ordinary Scots. For goodness sake, even Sturgeon admitted to 10 years of “austerity” in Scotland - the Tories have only been in power for 8 of those years. 

 

If in the long term it leads to a healthier patient, then yes. But of course we are speculating. 

 

I'm not saying independence would lead to overnight wealth, or wouldn't cost etc etc, but the ailment is more than about economics. To me at least. 

 

Good to see the news last week that Scotland was the biggest beneficiary of overseas investment, outwith London, and that the Scottish economy was outperforming the UK average though. Its not all doom and gloom. 

 

And again, in an independent Scotland it may not be the SNP calling the shots. 

[Thunderstruck]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

If in the long term it leads to a healthier patient, then yes. But of course we are speculating. 

 

I'm not saying independence would lead to overnight wealth, or wouldn't cost etc etc, but the ailment is more than about economics. To me at least. 

 

Good to see the news last week that Scotland was the biggest beneficiary of overseas investment, outwith London, and that the Scottish economy was outperforming the UK average though. Its not all doom and gloom. 

 

And again, in an independent Scotland it may not be the SNP calling the shots. 

 

“If, in the long term...” This is exactly the point - success is not certain nor is the length of the journey.

 

With that knowledge, would you embark on the change in the full knowledge that the losers in any constitutional upheaval is always those least able to care for themselves?

 

Of course, Scotland is good at attracting Foreign Direct Investment but a lot of that is built around and dependent upon a strong educational system, including the continuing supply of the right calibre of workforce and it is worth noting that Ernst &Young warned recently of the danger associated with slipping educational standards. We all should, of course, be aware of the recent decline in the quality of our once World-leading educational system. 

 

A significant proportion of FDI is “high-tech” - the type of highly-mobile business that isn’t shy of moving wherever it can get best funding support. The rise and decline of Silicon Glen should induce an element of caution over putting too many eggs in that basket. 

 

If we want to look at the current Scottish economy as an entity, a large - if not the largest - “inward investment” is the 15% if industrial output founded on the Royal Navy. I have yet to see a cogent suggestion as to how that would be replaced. 

 

As for the SNP not being in power - do you honestly see that happening or happening quickly enough to avoid doing even greater damage?

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

“If, in the long term...” This is exactly the point - success is not certain nor is the length of the journey.

 

With that knowledge, would you embark on the change in the full knowledge that the losers in any constitutional upheaval is always those least able to care for themselves?

 

Of course, Scotland is good at attracting Foreign Direct Investment but a lot of that is built around and dependent upon a strong educational system, including the continuing supply of the right calibre of workforce and it is worth noting that Ernst &Young warned recently of the danger associated with slipping educational standards. We all should, of course, be aware of the recent decline in the quality of our once World-leading educational system. 

 

A significant proportion of FDI is “high-tech” - the type of highly-mobile business that isn’t shy of moving wherever it can get best funding support. The rise and decline of Silicon Glen should induce an element of caution over putting too many eggs in that basket. 

 

If we want to look at the current Scottish economy as an entity, a large - if not the largest - “inward investment” is the 15% if industrial output founded on the Royal Navy. I have yet to see a cogent suggestion as to how that would be replaced. 

 

As for the SNP not being in power - do you honestly see that happening or happening quickly enough to avoid doing even greater damage?

 

 

What damage? No wars and none of our people killed or the money spent on them. Has WM done damage to the UK?  Thatcher and Blair have overseen people of the UK perish due to their foreign policies also she destroyed the fabric of GB. 

[AuldReekie444]

8 hours ago, Boris said:

If in the long term it leads to a healthier patient, then yes. But of course we are speculating. 

 

I'm not saying independence would lead to overnight wealth, or wouldn't cost etc etc, but the ailment is more than about economics. To me at least. 

 

Good to see the news last week that Scotland was the biggest beneficiary of overseas investment, outwith London, and that the Scottish economy was outperforming the UK average though. Its not all doom and gloom. 

 

And again, in an independent Scotland it may not be the SNP calling the shots. 

 

Where do you get this from please?

[AuldReekie444]

9 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Experts running our finances in Westminster get it wrong every time. 

 

Feel free to ignore that fact though. 

You can't explain something so complex with such a simplistic mindset.

 

I predict you will say that the experts  running our finances in Scotland are good at what they do.

[Boris]

35 minutes ago, AuldReekie444 said:

 

Where do you get this from please?

 

Not sure, I think I heard it on the radio, but will check and get back.

[Hasselhoff]

2 hours ago, AuldReekie444 said:

 

Where do you get this from please?

 

From what I understand we are contributing more than the UK average but are spending way over the UK average hence we have a severe deficit. We take advantage of getting extra money via Barnett to spend it on things like free prescriptions etc. This level of spending would not be sustainable on an indy Scotland. 

[Thunderstruck]

11 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

From what I understand we are contributing more than the UK average but are spending way over the UK average hence we have a severe deficit. We take advantage of getting extra money via Barnett to spend it on things like free prescriptions etc. This level of spending would not be sustainable on an indy Scotland. 

 

A reasonably straightforward explanation of relative growth of GDP as a measure...

 

https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/scottish-v-uk-growth-forecasts-how-big-a-difference-is-there-and-does-it-matter/

[Space Mackerel]

Time to break out the WoS posts now the IFS and Fraser of Auchternowhere are getting quoted

 

[Hasselhoff]

5 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

Time to break out the WoS posts now the IFS and Fraser of Auchternowhere are getting quoted

 

 

Sturgeon quotes FoAI regularly. Wings is only good for one thing - being paid by "alert readers" (idiots) to point out the daily express and daily mail are poor newspapers

[H2]

On 09/06/2018 at 01:50, jumpship said:

Scotland is turning into a two party state.

 

Those who want Scottish  freedom to build a better world for our kids.

 

and those who don't care about anyone else but themselves.

I can only describe that statement as truely ignorant, designed to create conflict, and more divisions between people. Those who believe in unity really do care.

 

[jambo lodge]

Jim Sillars in the Times today telling it as it is. Its time for the SNP membership to waken up, there is no power grab,  what Westminster has proposed post Brexit is perfectly understandable.

[manaliveits105]

The prime minister confirms that NHS have been allocated more money and its up to Scottish and Welsh governments as to how they spend it - so Krankie knew they had more money when she did her showboating about health workers under £18k will get 3% rise now ! -  she is lower than a snakes belly .

[Thunderstruck]

13 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

The prime minister confirms that NHS have been allocated more money and its up to Scottish and Welsh governments as to how they spend it - so Krankie knew they had more money when she did her showboating about health workers under £18k will get 3% rise now ! -  she is lower than a snakes belly .

 

You are quite right although the pay rise was a different agreement.

 

I’m sure the Westminster Government wasn’t trolling the Murrell Corporation and its conference when it made its pay award announcement a couple of days before that conference. That took a bit of the pizzazz out of a marquee announcement. 

[Hasselhoff]

48 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Jim Sillars in the Times today telling it as it is. Its time for the SNP membership to waken up, there is no power grab,  what Westminster has proposed post Brexit is perfectly understandable.

 

[Pans Jambo]

12 hours ago, AuldReekie444 said:

You can't explain something so complex with such a simplistic mindset.

 

I predict you will say that the experts  running our finances in Scotland are good at what they do.

Thats a side step. 

My whole point is folk are talking factually about ‘10 years of additional Scottish austerity’ after Indy when the real truth is “experts” know heehaw as is proven every budget every year since god knows when. Predict what you like. The path is well trodden. 

[Pans Jambo]

35 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

Jim Sillars needs out out to grass. 

Nobody looking to protect Scotland would write for the Sunday Times. 

His grievance is with the SNP is well documented. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Pans Jambo

[Trapper John McIntyre]

5 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Jim Sillars needs out out to grass. 

Nobody looking to protect Scotland would write for the Sunday Times. 

His grievance is with the SNP is well documented. 

 

The truth from Silllars stings like a bitch doesnt it?

He's 100% correct and you know it. Never mind who he writes for.

[Pans Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

The truth from Silllars stings like a bitch doesnt it?

He's 100% correct and you know it. Never mind who he writes for.

No hes not. Its an opinion from a bitter old man whos career died. Only folk with britnat battered housewife stockholm syndrome listens to him (your ilk) as it fits your agenda of bending over the desk to Mundell & his mob. 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Pans Jambo

[Captain Sausage]

22 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Thats a side step. 

My whole point is folk are talking factually about ‘10 years of additional Scottish austerity’ after Indy when the real truth is “experts” know heehaw as is proven every budget every year since god knows when. Predict what you like. The path is well trodden. 

 

So people who forge careers out of understanding economic policies and how changes to governmental policy can have an effect are equal to wee Jimmy fae Sighthill who thinks ‘we will be £4000 a year better off after independence’ because he read it on WoS?

 

Do you think you know better than all economists who have reviewed possibilities and predicted the immediate future of an independent Scotland?

[Trapper John McIntyre]

12 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

No hes not. Its an opinion from a bitter old man whos career died. Only folk with britnat battered housewife stockholm syndrome listens to him (your ilk) as it fits your agenda of bending over the desk to Mundell & his mob. 

 

 

Don't you accept that the kind of language you use  'britnat battered housewife stockholm syndrome listens to him (your ilk) as it fits your agenda of bending over the desk to Mundell & his mob' does absolutely nothing to further your cause? You're no better than Spacey and Aussie or anyone of that ilk with that nonsense. Or those Scottish resistance/Wings nutters either.

 

Sillars has admittedly been a slaver in the past with his day of reckoning and secret oilfields nonsense which certainly did nothing to further the cause. But his latest utterances on the SNP particularly after the Brexit vote have been the sole beacon of clarity and reason coming out of the Nat camp.

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Trapper John McIntyre

[Pans Jambo]

You asked 2 questions. 

 

No idea what WoS is. Experts talk pish & their crystal balls dont work unyet folk listen, believe & quote them as factual gods. £4k a year better off??? Dont know about that but how much WORSE off are we after 10 years of tory austerity?

 

your answer to question 2 is alarmingly similar to my answer to your first question. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

18 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

No hes not. Its an opinion from a bitter old man whos career died. Only folk with britnat battered housewife stockholm syndrome listens to him (your ilk) as it fits your agenda of bending over the desk to Mundell & his mob. 

 

 

Try this!

 

https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/region_23.html

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

Don't you accept that the kind of language you use  'britnat battered housewife stockholm syndrome listens to him (your ilk) as it fits your agenda of bending over the desk to Mundell & his mob' does absolutely nothing to further your cause? You're no better than Spacey and Aussie or anyone of that ilk with that nonsense. Or those Scottish resistance/Wings nutters either.

 

Sillars has admittedly been a slaver in the past with his day of reckoning and secret oilfields nonsense which certainly did nothing to further the cause. But his latest utterances on the SNP particularly after the Brexit vote have been the sole beacon of clarity and reason coming out of the Nat camp.

 

My cause?

 

I dont have a ‘cause’. 

 

‘Beacon of clarity’. Your words. Your agenda. Pish. 

[Pans Jambo]

5 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Try this!

 

https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/region_23.html

 

 

Try this!

 

https://www.britannica.com/science/Stockholm-syndrome

 

Stockholm syndrome, psychological response wherein a captive begins to identify closely with his or her captors, as well as with their agenda and demands.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Pans Jambo

[Trapper John McIntyre]

6 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

My cause?

 

I dont have a ‘cause’. 

 

‘Beacon of clarity’. Your words. Your agenda. Pish. 

You seem to spend an inordinate amount of time spouting high minded pish about your non cause on here.

 

By the increasingly shrill tone of your posts it sounds like you're reaching a crisis point over the lack of progress towards your dream of Indy. I'm worried about you.

 

I'd take up Seymours' offer of counselling if I were you.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Trapper John McIntyre

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Try this!

 

https://www.britannica.com/science/Stockholm-syndrome

 

Stockholm syndrome, psychological response wherein a captive begins to identify closely with his or her captors, as well as with their agenda and demands.

 

You're such an angry boy Pans. 

[Trapper John McIntyre]

3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Try this!

 

https://www.britannica.com/science/Stockholm-syndrome

 

Stockholm syndrome, psychological response wherein a captive begins to identify closely with his or her captors, as well as with their agenda and demands.

He's cracking, Seymour. It's only a matter of time now.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Try this!

 

https://www.britannica.com/science/Stockholm-syndrome

 

Stockholm syndrome, psychological response wherein a captive begins to identify closely with his or her captors, as well as with their agenda and demands.

That could be directed equally to the rabid nats on here to be fair. 

[Pans Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

You seem to spend an inordinate amount of time spouting high minded pish about your non cause on here.

 

By the increasingly shrill tone of your posts it sounds like you're reaching a crisis point over the lack of progress towards your dream of Indy. I'm worried about you.

 

I'd take up Seymours' offer of counselling if I were you.

Im still in ma bed Trapper. I’ll let you do all the worrying pal. 

I can see through the BS & that worries the Mundell fan club members. 

[Pans Jambo]

4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

You're such an angry boy Pans. 

 whos cracking ??? Haha 

[Pans Jambo]

4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

That could be directed equally to the rabid nats on here to be fair. 

Aye but I said it first 

[Trapper John McIntyre]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Im still in ma bed Trapper. I’ll let you do all the worrying pal. 

I can see through the BS & that worries the Mundell fan club members. 

 

Good. Get your mum to make you a nice cup of tea. There's nothing better.

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

Good. Get your mum to make you a nice cup of tea. There's nothing better.

Thats nice. Daughter taking me out for Sunday lunch in an hour or so for dads day. Enjoy your Sunday John 

[Space Mackerel]

Some amount of tetchiness from the British Unionists today.

 

Show some love guys. 

 

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

15 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

 whos cracking ??? Haha 

 

Is this you?

 

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

Economist Andrew Hughes Halley says Scotland has been subsidising Westminster for years.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Is this you?

 

 

 

 

[Hasselhoff]

39 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Economist Andrew Hughes Halley says Scotland has been subsidising Westminster for years.

 

 

 

 

He is right, we did subsidise them during the 80s and 90s. Now the reverse is true and so we shouldn't feel like we are owing to the rest of the UK. It is a benefit of polling and sharing - sometimes you are doing well sometimes you don't do so well

[Ministry MK2]

On 16/06/2018 at 12:59, Pans Jambo said:

Experts running our finances in Westminster get it wrong every time. 

 

Feel free to ignore that fact though. 

Probably true, but are you suggesting Holyrood “experts” get it right?

[Space Mackerel]

39 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

He is right, we did subsidise them during the 80s and 90s. Now the reverse is true and so we shouldn't feel like we are owing to the rest of the UK. It is a benefit of polling and sharing - sometimes you are doing well sometimes you don't do so well

 

Did you actually listen to how he explains spending in Scotland and what is spent on Scotland’s behalf? Also how the tax system is geared up for pretty much England and the South East rather than the whole of the U.K. as a whole? 

 

I’ll bet cha never listened to a word of it. 

[jack D and coke]

Jim Sillars can be a slaver at times but that’s an interesting article. 

He was massively critical of the shared currency the snp set out last time too which I agreed with, it was an absolute nonsense to attempt to use the BOE as lender of last resort. 

It really is why I can’t properly get behind the SNP, they should offer independence not their vision of independence and this power grab stuff looks a bit silly now. 

 

[Space Mackerel]

18 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Jim Sillars can be a slaver at times but that’s an interesting article. 

He was massively critical of the shared currency the snp set out last time too which I agreed with, it was an absolute nonsense to attempt to use the BOE as lender of last resort. 

It really is why I can’t properly get behind the SNP, they should offer independence not their vision of independence and this power grab stuff looks a bit silly now. 

 

 

Bit silly to say SNPs vision when there will be a GE within 3-6 months after the day. 

 

To use an anology, first you have to get the keys to the house then you can decorate it anyway you want. No dicky dots though.