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Stuart Lyon

Even More SNP Nonsense

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Gorgiewave

I don't believe these figures in the slightest :)

 

What's your reason for not believing them?

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Pans Jambo

What's your reason for not believing them?

I would guess probably the timing. Released on St.Andrews day funnily enough!

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Sidsnot

Truly bizarre that these charlatans have hoodwinked so many of the Scottish electorate into voting for them. Everything they touch turns to utter shite.

Aye,let's all vote Tory ya walloper,Independence will be ours sooner rather than later,I say we send idiots like you down south,build a wall 100 feet high and make sure you're never seen nor heard of again.BAMPOT!!!

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Dawnrazor

Aye,let's all vote Tory ya walloper,Independence will be ours sooner rather than later,I say we send idiots like you down south,build a wall 100 feet high and make sure you're never seen nor heard of again.BAMPOT!!!

A very well thought out and balanced argument.

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pablo

Aye,let's all vote Tory ya walloper,Independence will be ours sooner rather than later,I say we send idiots like you down south,build a wall 100 feet high and make sure you're never seen nor heard of again.BAMPOT!!!

:) I'd put you in charge of Education in Indy Scotland.

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Trapper John McIntyre

Aye,let's all vote Tory ya walloper,Independence will be ours sooner rather than later,I say we send idiots like you down south,build a wall 100 feet high and make sure you're never seen nor heard of again.BAMPOT!!!

 

Oh Christ, he's been allowed back out.

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Sidsnot

A very well thought out and balanced argument.

Who the HELL IS ARGUING,EH!!!

 

:) I'd put you in charge of Education in Indy Scotland.

Why thank you sir.

Oh Christ, he's been allowed back in.

Tell him he's not getting back into Scotland then,Jeez.

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Gorgiewave

Aye,let's all vote Tory ya walloper,Independence will be ours sooner rather than later,I say we send idiots like you down south,build a wall 100 feet high and make sure you're never seen nor heard of again.BAMPOT!!!

Civic.

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JamboX2

But that is why the Tories are doing relatively well. To those that value the Union above all else, they are voting Tory. I suspect that this is as good as it may get for them. The SNP vote is remaining firm at c.50% and you must obviously have no voters voting SNP as they are seen as a better option than, let's face it, the Tories.

 

It's interesting to hear the constant grumbles about another referendum and speratism, yet it is this rhetoric that is perpetuating this binary approach. The Tories are the guilty party here, they are the ones that seem obssessed.

 

The poll also showed the SNP gaining a seat, but the Greens appear to be the real winners, which would have Holyrood under a massive pro-independence majority. So it would suggest that the Scottish electorate are comfortable in electing parties that resonate with their politics, yet safe in the knowledge that come a referendum on independence they can vote as they please. Whereas the Tories rely on that single issue for support.

Do they rely on one issue though? I don't think they do.

 

The Scottish electorate are voting oddly. I personally think they're voting for parties they perceive as putting the interests of them as Scots (rather than working class or middle class voters) than on nationalistic terms. The Tories offer this for those who believe Scotland is best served in the Union full stop.

 

In other words, voting SNP or Green is not necessarily an acceptance of independence.

 

Labour, unfortunately, is completely adrift. Which is a shame. If they were to suddenly support independence, I think that would be seen as opportunism, however I also think that they must have that conversation and come up with some reasonable position on the union. But, and to be fair to Dugdale, she did try to focus on other issues at the last election, rather than simply yes/no.

She did but voters weren't interested. There in lies the issue. Labour shouldn't jump into independence opportunistically or be vociferously unionist. It should argue for the full devolution of repatriated powers and run from there imo.

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JamboX2

Labour is doomed. Davidson represents a more acceptable face of Toryism and as more voters want Nippys scallies to be held to account the Torres will pick up more middle ground voters.

I don't think it is. I think this is its 15-20 year wilderness period. It's 1950s or 1980s. If it does become a Scpttish Liberal party then it is in a good place to influence as a third party in a PR parliament.

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Space Mackerel

Do they rely on one issue though? I don't think they do.

 

The Scottish electorate are voting oddly. I personally think they're voting for parties they perceive as putting the interests of them as Scots (rather than working class or middle class voters) than on nationalistic terms. The Tories offer this for those who believe Scotland is best served in the .

Oddly? The working class have seen through the sham of Nu Labour and the Tories.

 

The only thing odd is the way these 2 parties pursue the same policies year after year.

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JamboX2

Oddly? The working class have seen through the sham of Nu Labour and the Tories.

 

The only thing odd is the way these 2 parties pursue the same policies year after year.

They don't though.

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Space Mackerel

They don't though.

They do. I grew up in Oxgangs, most if not all my mates have jumped over to the SNP from Nu Labour.

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JamboX2

They do. I grew up in Oxgangs, most if not all my mates have jumped over to the SNP from Nu Labour.

That's not to say they are offering the same policies they did two or three decades ago.

 

All parties change.

 

SNP went from anti-EU membership to pro for example. Party policies change at in many ways at each election.

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Space Mackerel

That's not to say they are offering the same policies they did two or three decades ago.

 

All parties change.

 

SNP went from anti-EU membership to pro for example. Party policies change at in many ways at each election.

Here is the way I see it.

 

The majority of the working class have woken up to the bollocks from Nu Labour and the Tories. There is better alternatives. A lot better.

 

Jeremy Corbyn is your best bet, if you want a Unionist left wing continuation. I'd doubt in a million years I'd vote for that.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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JamboX2

Here is the way I see it.

 

The majority of the working class have woken up to the bollocks from Nu Labour and the Tories. There is better alternatives. A lot better.

 

Jeremy Corbyn is your best bet, if you want a Unionist left wing continuation. I'd doubt in a million years I'd vote for that.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

But that's not what you were talking about to start with. You said they offered the same each election. Which they don't.

 

If you are saying they have woken up to alternatives then reference unionism you must surely mean the policy alternative is nationalism. That is one of the few distinguishing differences between the SNP and the other Scottish parties. A vpte Green, UKIP or RISE would be a vote for an alternative way of organising the nation. The SNP seek to change how a nation is run. Not how the bation itself operates or how the relationships between different parts of society work.

 

So I ask again, what policy differences do you want to see?

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Boris

Do they rely on one issue though? I don't think they do.

 

The Scottish electorate are voting oddly. I personally think they're voting for parties they perceive as putting the interests of them as Scots (rather than working class or middle class voters) than on nationalistic terms. The Tories offer this for those who believe Scotland is best served in the Union full stop.

 

 

She did but voters weren't interested. There in lies the issue. Labour shouldn't jump into independence opportunistically or be vociferously unionist. It should argue for the full devolution of repatriated powers and run from there imo.

 

Aren't you agreeing with me then?  My point was that the Tories are getting support from those who value the Union the most i.e. that single issue?

 

Personally, I think Labour needs to argue for constitutional change acroos the UK e.g. federalism, PR for Westminster, House of Lords etc etc  The Scottish PArty can lobby the UK wide party and see what happens, if nothing, it really puts them in a hard place.

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deesidejambo

Aren't you agreeing with me then? My point was that the Tories are getting support from those who value the Union the most i.e. that single issue?

 

Personally, I think Labour needs to argue for constitutional change acroos the UK e.g. federalism, PR for Westminster, House of Lords etc etc The Scottish PArty can lobby the UK wide party and see what happens, if nothing, it really puts them in a hard place.

agree. Slab can't go for Indy as they will then lose more voters to the Tories who would be the only party supporting the Union. Devo-max is their only option. If they go for that they get my vote.

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jambo lodge

Since when were the SNP for the working class........how deluded some people are. The SNP stand for popularity politics, gimmicks rather than long term policies. We have a leader who struts around any photo opportunity she can whilst her government is a complete shambles. The freeze on Council tax for the last ten years has hit the poorest in society most as services are cut and under threat. Who has benefitted most ? the middle classes living in expensive houses. Business rates have also been frozen and for some companies they pay no tax whatsoever. SNP are tartan tories and always have been, that's why Alex Salmond relied on Annabel Goldie during the first SNP power grab.

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deesidejambo

Since when were the SNP for the working class........how deluded some people are. The SNP stand for popularity politics, gimmicks rather than long term policies. We have a leader who struts around any photo opportunity she can whilst her government is a complete shambles. The freeze on Council tax for the last ten years has hit the poorest in society most as services are cut and under threat. Who has benefitted most ? the middle classes living in expensive houses. Business rates have also been frozen and for some companies they pay no tax whatsoever. SNP are tartan tories and always have been, that's why Alex Salmond relied on Annabel Goldie during the first SNP power grab.

Diddy Govt. But I await their big one: what to do about Income Tax.

 

What are KBers preferences on that?

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Stuart Lyon

Jambo lodge - well said!

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Boris

Since when were the SNP for the working class........how deluded some people are. The SNP stand for popularity politics, gimmicks rather than long term policies. We have a leader who struts around any photo opportunity she can whilst her government is a complete shambles. The freeze on Council tax for the last ten years has hit the poorest in society most as services are cut and under threat. Who has benefitted most ? the middle classes living in expensive houses. Business rates have also been frozen and for some companies they pay no tax whatsoever. SNP are tartan tories and always have been, that's why Alex Salmond relied on Annabel Goldie during the first SNP power grab.

 

I thought that the Govt funded the freeze?

 

http://www.snp.org/the_council_tax_freeze_explained

 

Who to believe...

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jack D and coke

Since when were the SNP for the working class........how deluded some people are. The SNP stand for popularity politics, gimmicks rather than long term policies. We have a leader who struts around any photo opportunity she can whilst her government is a complete shambles. The freeze on Council tax for the last ten years has hit the poorest in society most as services are cut and under threat. Who has benefitted most ? the middle classes living in expensive houses. Business rates have also been frozen and for some companies they pay no tax whatsoever. SNP are tartan tories and always have been, that's why Alex Salmond relied on Annabel Goldie during the first SNP power grab.

Did you get that straight off Ruth Davidsons facebook page?

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reaths17

Did you get that straight off Ruth Davidsons facebook page?

is any of it wrong ?

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Boris

is any of it wrong ?

 

Well, if the link I posted is correct, and it does seem to be independently verified, then the whole notion that the freeze is meaning less services is a nonsense as the difference is being funded by the Govt.

 

If services are cut is it down to a council tax freeze?  No, it would seem.

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jack D and coke

is any of it wrong ?

No matter what I could come up with I doubt it would cut any ice with you tbh. I keep hearing about the middle classes benefitting with the freeze but no party has came up with anything tangible since the poll tax. It's old rehashed Ruth Davidson bollocks imo. She is the most independence referendum obsessed person in the uk too. Utterly obsessed with it because she knows it's about the only thing people bother listening to her about.

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Boris

No matter what I could come up with I doubt it would cut any ice with you tbh. I keep hearing about the middle classes benefitting with the freeze but no party has came up with anything tangible since the poll tax. It's old rehashed Ruth Davidson bollocks imo. She is the most independence referendum obsessed person in the uk too. Utterly obsessed with it because she knows it's about the only thing people bother listening to her about.

 

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jambo lodge

Facts from the Scottish Parliament's website..........from 2008/9 to 2015/6 the local government settlement was 3% lower than the budget Holyrood received from Westminster. It was/is a choice of this SNP government to decrease funding to local authorities and not allow even inflation increases in rates. As for the long promisd local income tax................aye keep waiting.    

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Boris

Facts from the Scottish Parliament's website..........from 2008/9 to 2015/6 the local government settlement was 3% lower than the budget Holyrood received from Westminster. It was/is a choice of this SNP government to decrease funding to local authorities and not allow even inflation increases in rates. As for the long promisd local income tax................aye keep waiting.    

 

but what about

 

Analysis from the independent Scottish Parliament Information Centre (SPICe) has shown that the Council Tax freeze has been more than fully funded by the SNP Government. In fact, the research goes so far as to say that the Council Tax freeze has been ?overfunded?.

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Boris

As for the long promisd local income tax................aye keep waiting.    

 

Personally, I don't think ANY party covers itself in glory on local government financing.

 

The Tories gave us the Poll Tax and then the current system.  Labour and the lib Dems had ample opportunity to change it, as have the SNP.

 

But it's the SNP's fault, obviously...

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westbow

Since when were the SNP for the working class........how deluded some people are. The SNP stand for popularity politics, gimmicks rather than long term policies. We have a leader who struts around any photo opportunity she can whilst her government is a complete shambles. The freeze on Council tax for the last ten years has hit the poorest in society most as services are cut and under threat. Who has benefitted most ? the middle classes living in expensive houses. Business rates have also been frozen and for some companies they pay no tax whatsoever. SNP are tartan tories and always have been, that's why Alex Salmond relied on Annabel Goldie during the first SNP power grab.

The 0% business rates relief are for businesses with a rateable value of ?10k or less. Those aren't particularly middle class establishments. They do a small business bonus scheme for ?35k or less, again, not really the big leagues.

 

Business rates are calculated at just under 50% off the rateable value. Over the years the rateable values of most commercial properties have seriously outstripped inflation, certainly in Edinburgh.  So the net contributions from these businesses are above inflation. So in real terms the payments have increased, not frozen.

 

If the percentage had increased, many businesses would have closed, simple as that. The margins many small businesses are using are pretty thin and can be flipped very easily. Again, we are not talking the middle classes here. 

 

A fairer system would be based on business turnover. Chain coffee shops, hotels and retailers should be footing a larger share.

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jambo lodge

No real issue with rates relief for small businesses, its the lack of any real plan for the future which worries me about the SNP. They constantly whinge about everything but have a radical plan for nothing. Set up a commission to look at local income tax and then kick it into the long grass. This week they inherited control of taxation in Scotland, will be interesting to hear about a " progressive" agenda on that. Taxes are never popular but the nettle needs to be grasped...........hotel tax , sales tax......two business areas Edinburgh could benefit from.

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jack D and coke

No real issue with rates relief for small businesses, its the lack of any real plan for the future which worries me about the SNP. They constantly whinge about everything but have a radical plan for nothing. Set up a commission to look at local income tax and then kick it into the long grass. This week they inherited control of taxation in Scotland, will be interesting to hear about a " progressive" agenda on that. Taxes are never popular but the nettle needs to be grasped...........hotel tax , sales tax......two business areas Edinburgh could benefit from.

When people are starting threads trying to beat them up over asking a retailer to stock Scottish water or goods they sell up here I can pretty much guarantee it wouldn't matter a monkeys what they come up with you won't be happy about it.

Not particularly aimed at you mate but anybody who just cant give them any credit for anything.

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westbow

No real issue with rates relief for small businesses, its the lack of any real plan for the future which worries me about the SNP. They constantly whinge about everything but have a radical plan for nothing. Set up a commission to look at local income tax and then kick it into the long grass. This week they inherited control of taxation in Scotland, will be interesting to hear about a " progressive" agenda on that. Taxes are never popular but the nettle needs to be grasped...........hotel tax , sales tax......two business areas Edinburgh could benefit from.

Sales tax (VAT) is already 20%, which is plenty. I find sales tax a bit unfair as it isn't based on income. An additional 5% or so on hotels? Not sure it would be worth it because of the admin. I'd still go after the big chains tbh, that's where the big bucks are.

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jambos are go!

How long will Scotland put up with the tyrany of minority support for the SNP being allowed to have domination over political life in Scotland to promote independence so roundly rejected by voters?

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HaymarketJambo

How long will Scotland put up with the tyrany of minority support for the SNP being allowed to have domination over political life in Scotland to promote independence so roundly rejected by voters?

 

 

We had to put up with the Labour Party for over 60 years - The Labour Party nearly bankrupted Britain twice.

 

I'll stick with the SNP "thanks" 

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Boris

How long will Scotland put up with the tyrany of minority support for the SNP being allowed to have domination over political life in Scotland to promote independence so roundly rejected by voters?

 

????

 

Any political party in the world would love the polling figures the SNP get!  

 

Try to differentiate between the SNP and independence, that's what the electorate seem to be doing, given the c.50% poll ratings, yet less support for independence.  Ergo, no voters are voting for the SNP.

 

A far bigger mandate than HMG has just now, or indeed has had in my lifetime.  But it's tyrannical, right enough.

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AlphonseCapone

How long will Scotland put up with the tyrany of minority support for the SNP being allowed to have domination over political life in Scotland to promote independence so roundly rejected by voters?

 

Tyranny  :what:

 

All the best tyrants consistently win elections.

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Thunderstruck

It is irrational to suggest that any freezing or restriction on local government spending can have had no detrimental effect.

 

To underline that, Audit Scotland has, in the past few days, warned against continued underfunding of local authorities and depletion of reserves to a critical level. This is in the face of 3 to 5% cuts intimated for 17/18. Note also that the reduction in funding is net of inflationary pressures such as pay awards.

 

Within the above reduction, education and social care are ring-fenced with the result that other services have had and will see deeper cuts; cleansing, licensing, environmental health, building control/planning, lighting, street cleaning, building maintenance and, in some councils, housing services.

 

For clarity on Business Rates -

 

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Government/local-government/17999/11199/Archive/NDR

 

Or

 

https://www.mygov.scot/business-rates-guidance/

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Space Mackerel

How long will Scotland put up with the tyrany of minority support for the SNP being allowed to have domination over political life in Scotland to promote independence so roundly rejected by voters?

Are you not the 100% dafty who started the thread the other day saying JKB helped undermine Robbie Neilson? :lol:

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AlphonseCapone

Are you not the 100% dafty who started the thread the other day saying JKB helped undermine Robbie Neilson? :lol:

Correct. Absolute zoomer.

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jambos are go!

Are you not the 100% dafty who started the thread the other day saying JKB helped undermine Robbie Neilson? :lol:

 

 

Are you not the 100% dafty who started the thread the other day saying JKB helped undermine Robbie Neilson? :lol:

No. I said posters on JKB helped undermine Robbie Neilson.

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Space Mackerel

No. I said posters on JKB helped undermine Robbie Neilson.

Thread closed :-/

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Stuart Lyon

Re underfunding of local authorities CeC did a great job in undermining its finances with the grossly expensive vanity tram project! They get no sympathy from me.

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Harry Potter

Are the SNP going to help the RBS workers who lose their jobs, serious question.

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AlphonseCapone

Are the SNP going to help the RBS workers who lose their jobs, serious question.

Why should they?

 

Two reasons they shouldn't;

 

Banks should stop being treated like they can do whatever they want and the Government blames them out.

 

Voting no was meant to save banking jobs, another piece of Westminster bullshit.

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Seymour M Hersh

Why should they?

 

Two reasons they shouldn't;

 

Banks should stop being treated like they can do whatever they want and the Government blames them out.

 

Voting no was meant to save banking jobs, another piece of Westminster bullshit.

 

If the seps had won then a lot of financial institutions would have moved their HO functions to London or elsewhere in England initially this would not have meant massive job loses here but within 5-10 years huge amounts of back office positions would have been getting transferred south. So in fact it was not bullshit.

 

For Bullshit read the white paper/SNP manifesto for independence. 

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Space Mackerel

If the seps had won then a lot of financial institutions would have moved their HO functions to London or elsewhere in England initially this would not have meant massive job loses here but within 5-10 years huge amounts of back office positions would have been getting transferred south. So in fact it was not bullshit.

 

For Bullshit read the white paper/SNP manifesto for independence.

 

Do you really think modern day banking in the U.K. just involves quids?

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AlphonseCapone

If the seps had won then a lot of financial institutions would have moved their HO functions to London or elsewhere in England initially this would not have meant massive job loses here but within 5-10 years huge amounts of back office positions would have been getting transferred south. So in fact it was not bullshit.

 

For Bullshit read the white paper/SNP manifesto for independence.

Deflect all you want. I am perfectly aware of a lot of the bullshit in the white paper, I'm capable of seeing that. I never hear the unionists admit to the lies from their side though.

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Trapper John McIntyre

Deflect all you want. I am perfectly aware of a lot of the bullshit in the white paper, I'm capable of seeing that. I never hear the unionists admit to the lies from their side though.

What lies?

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